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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    The New Way to Terrorize

    So us UKers as you probably have heard has had a terrorist incident in our Capital of London where a lone man drove into people with a car and stabbed a policeman trying to get into the houses of parliament. It was pretty horrible and a few people died and got injured.

    It seems that the new way to terrorize looking at what's happened in France and Germany is to try and convince lobe gunman type nutters to just start murdering people with whatever is on hand. I don't know whether because of tighter security or because its easier then actually organizing something but it does mean it is really harder to deal with.

    That is the point though how the hell do you deal with them? They are always going to be a surprise, they are always probably going to do some damage. Its very hard to detect early because instead of going to meetings with others, these are people getting converted over the internet.

    So yeah it does the job well because it is probably the easiest form of terrorism to do and it still gives us the reaction they want.

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Honestly, it's preferable for a government, it allows for even harsher restrictions on citizens. They get themselves caught, then you can Gitmo and execute that shit. They will never meaningfully effect infrastructure.

    What's happening is your enemy is marching in the open and alone.

    From the terrorist point of view, it's weakness is people just don't give a shit, especially if you take guns out of it, and guns just make the attacker seem cowardly narratively.

    The threat a ring of radicalised people compared to one berk who probably has a low IQ is much 'terror-ier'.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    That is the point though how the hell do you deal with them?
    You can't.

    Now just to make it perfectly clear i find ALL murdering of innocent people (as in non-combat involved people) about as low down the level of what makes humans WORSE than any other creature on this planet. If any religion is the 'true' religion, these actions will count against ANY and ALL people that involve themselves in the murder of innocents (directly or indirectly), there will be a reckoning, so prey your soul is ready for that.

    Here is the cold hard and unpleasant truth of our current (and future) situation in terms of 'terrorism'. We (as in the 'innocent people') are going to be randomly dying from these events for a long-time to come, and there is nothing we can do about it.

    We could reduce the duration these events will happen over (time span wise). We could ensure empathy and actual knowledge of WHY these events happen. But for the time being, and probably for a few generations to come, these will be events we will all sadly become 'used' to hearing and witnessing. The 'harder' we react as countries to them, the worse it will become (this is a large part of where we are).

    And here is the real root of the problem, we have allowed this situation to be created (certainly worsened) by allowing our governments to engage in wars that kill innocent people in the tens and hundreds of thousands. That is the cold harsh truth of the situation. You may not like to hear it, but it IS the main reason behind the growth of terrorism in our countries this last decade or two.

    Very specifically in the case of Islamic terrorism you really need to watch and do research into the details the incredible documentary series 'The Power of Nightmares' goes into:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

    That should be on school syllabus imho. It shows why modern Islamic terrorism became a thing, and also by reading the background of the various topics it discusses, you get a pretty good 99% accurate view of why these terrorist attacks are now part of all our lives. American Neo-Conservatives are largely responsible as it turns out. Well worth the time digging into, especially if you have any interest in maybe wanting to have a future without Islamic terrorism.

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    In some ways it's more effective as it seems unpredictable, unstoppable and therefore scarier.

    But people like IS who are banking on such strategies might find that there is a law of diminishing returns. People become hardened and cease to be shocked after a while.
    I was pretty happy that parliament got back on with business asap and they didn't even close the public gallery.

    There is no way to stop nut-jobs doing crazy things. Even if there was no IS and no religious/globally inspired terrorism there would still be nut-jobs shooting up schools or doing dumb things.
    We just have to take as many precautions as are reasonable without compromising too much of our freedom or convictions, and then get on with life.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ethelred's Avatar
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    Interesting link.

    I agree that this sort of terrorist attack is almost impossible to prevent - to be able to do so, even with intelligent msart monitoring of all your communications (including passive phone monitoring) would result in a severely restricted society that most people would be unwilling to agree to.

    The issues arise because of the, quite understandable, hyperbolic and sensationalist reporting. Terrorism of this type:-

    - does not represent an existential threat to the "Western" way of life
    - Deaths due to terrorism in Western Europe <200 a year since 1988 (Lockerbie), in comparison 1,732 people died in car related incidents in the UK alone in 2015 (with over 22,000 seriously injured)

    However, simple solutions like having drilled rapid response police in big cities and smarter street and road planning (with perhaps more street furniture etc) could probably cut down on the effectiveness of these incidents.

    Ultimately it's not that big of any issue (in comparison with other things), although obviously if you are personally affected I cannot even begin to imagine it's impact (but again the same could be said about the traffic incidents and I'm yet to see a credible lobby against cars)

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    - Deaths due to terrorism in Western Europe <200 a year since 1988 (Lockerbie), in comparison 1,732 people died in car related incidents in the UK alone in 2015 (with over 22,000 seriously injured)



    While yes this is true I believe it doesn't understand why terrorism works the way it does. Clearly I think we have an oh shit button in ourselves that if something big happens we can't help but look on and be scared about it. This is why terrorism works, sure deaths are not as big as Cancer, but Cancer doesn't have the oh shit a bomb has just been gone off. Terrorism isn't about deaths its about trying to get that reaction, and it completely works thats why its one of the best modern weapons to use.

    Very specifically in the case of Islamic terrorism you really need to watch and do research into the details the incredible documentary series 'The Power of Nightmares' goes into:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

    That should be on school syllabus imho. It shows why modern Islamic terrorism became a thing, and also by reading the background of the various topics it discusses,


    Don't get me wrong I like Adam Curtis and think he opens up my mind like no one else. The problem I have with him is that he is one man and I'm not to sure on his sources.

  7. #7
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    Tbh if they're having to resort to this it's because they can't get people and supplies where they need them to perform the kind of attacks that will make a proper impact. All these years of warnings that the terrorists will get chemical weapons, or maybe one day a dirty bomb, the truth is they can't even get guns in this country (thank you gun laws - incidentally the amount of trolling by Americans on US forums saying that if we all had guns we'd not have had so many deaths... not cool, and clearly absolute bollocks). We have the advantage of being an island of course, but the point is they're failing. I like that they're failing.

    Now the thing that is important is that we need to be a bit cleverer in the media about how we react to these things. I think https://inews.co.uk/essentials/cultu...inster-attack/ raises the point quite well, that the purpose of this is to get the headlines, the condemnation, etc. They're toddlers kicking the furniture to get attention. But why give so much coverage to a pretty small attack? The coverage was frankly more substantial than for the twin towers (ok I get it, it's a different age, but still) and honestly it's just a tiny little attack in the scheme of things. So stop sensationalising this shit, stop having rolling coverage of bugger all happening, stop spreading their message for them.

  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    Not directly related, but this has an interesting breakdown on terrorist deaths in the UK (and Europe) over the past few decades:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/ma...st-attacks-uk/
    Has good charts!

    Between 2000 and 2015, 90 people have been killed in the UK in terrorist attacks, according to figures from the Global Terrorism Database. Although not on British soil, a further 30 British people were killed in Tunisia when a gunman attacked a hotel popular among Western tourists.

    This compares to 1,094 deaths in the 15-year period before that, between 1985 and 1999, and a further 2,211 between 1970 and 1984.
    Of course, humans aren't rational about risk or fear.

    Over the last 10 years there's been 1.4 deaths per year in the UK due to terrorism - which, according to research from BuzzFeed, means you're more likely to be killed by dogs (18 deaths per year), hot water (100 deaths per year) or using your phone while driving (2,920 deaths per year).

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    The coverage was frankly more substantial than for the twin towers (ok I get it, it's a different age, but still)
    Uh, no it wasn't! I remember coming home from school on the day of 9/11 wanting to watch my usual kids programs and basically our main channel bbc 1 had turned into news 24. That didn't happen with his one as much. Even 7/7 was covered a lot more.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Don't get me wrong I like Adam Curtis and think he opens up my mind like no one else. The problem I have with him is that he is one man and I'm not to sure on his sources.
    Well to go into some detail, his production was not by one man, it was years of research (in another field, the american libertarian movement, that eventually morphed into what became the timely The Power of Nightmares series) by a group of people. I expect he was as surprised by what it uncovered as the process itself must have been.

    And you can (and should imho) do fact checking on the topics that series discusses. It is interesting it has not been officially aired in the usa, ever. Not one network would touch it for the USA market. That suggests a few things perhaps?

    But in terms of the pure details of the series it seems pretty legitimate. Sayyid Qutb IS the founder of the modern day Islamic terrorist, his books are their study aids, his philosophy the foundation of all extreme Islamic movements in this modern era.

    The Neo-conservatives give exact personal opinions on their aims and ideology in relation to what took place these last 20 plus years in american politics, and their increase over the control of that process. They talk very openly about all that in the documentary. And a little bit like how the British Intelligence Services tried to distant themselves from Blair's 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' thing, the USA Intelligence Services for a large part thought the Neo-cons were making shit up pretty much all the time. None of which stopped us ending up where we are now in relation to Islamic Terrorism in our countries.

    If you do take the time to watch the films and read around the details you discover exactly why we are where we are, why 9/11 happened, why 7/7 and why all the recent attacks across europe and now this attack in Westminster.

    There are probably answers to be able to create solutions to get us out of this current path, and the film series greatest worth is that it lays out the framework and understanding required to change our current path. When you know why something is happening you can then make effect policy to change it.

    The main problem is this situation was deliberately created, engineered almost, and among the reasons was personal fortune gathering (Cheney and his Haliburton involvement etc) at the expense of innocent lives (ours (from increased terrorism) and the civilians killed directly in the war zones). There is more, along the lines of how America needs war to fund the returns on it's huge military industry and only awareness of this will work to change the future in terms of current day Islamic terrorism.
    Last edited by ZakG; 25-03-2017 at 08:56 AM.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ethelred's Avatar
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    The red flags for me here are "deliberately created" and that there is a solution.

    I think it's incredibly complicated and that where we are now is a result of unintended consequences and that there was no plan, like most of history.

    So whilst the ideas are sound, perhaps it's a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc?

  12. #12
    Maybe we should just ban cars.

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ethelred's Avatar
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    That's the thing innit? Ban cars and you'd have less deaths but the economy would probably be fucked.

    Thinking about it more, the latest "terror" attack in London is pretty much a mild inconvenience pretty much forgotten.

    Labelling them as "terror" attacks is a bit misleading, it's more like a small murder spree.

    My point is that the reaction and amendment of policy to these small scale activities is well out of proportion to the actual risk, but we're hard wired to see these activities as more serious than they are.

  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    Maybe we should just ban cars.
    No, no, it's like with guns. We should give everyone the right to purchase armored cars and run them into people, so that they'll be able to protect themselves next time and run into the terrorist before he runs into them.
    Or alternatively, give rocket launchers to the police. (I'm not even kidding, it was the proposition of a French politician right after the Nice attacks, so...)
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  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I know this is just doublespeak but if news organizations just called the terrorists 'murderers' I swear that would massively trim their sails ideologically.

    Giving them a special name like 'pirates' (either edition) or such just allows for them to hide behind concepts like 'another man's freedom fighter', not something a murderer has.

    Pirates have a series of Disney films for crying out loud 'ship thieves' or criminals would not have had the same appeal.
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  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Got to love some Adam Curtis. Anyway we should be banning private cars that aren't electric from the centre of London anyway, though that's for a different reason. What Ethelred says is essentially correct, it's not a big existential threat we'll just keep on going on with our lives. Yknow like the decades where the IRA bombed shit, we didn't collectively shit ourselves then no reason to do so now.

    Collectively shit ourselves would be say ludicrous surveillance laws or suspending Habeus Corpus... Oh wait.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    I assume he paid his congestion charge?

    There are quite a few movies about criminals.

    I have nothing much else to add.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Adam Curtis makes interesting argumentative films, as long as you keep in mind he always tries to distil everything down to simple narrative threads rather than ongoing processes. I guess to some extent that's what he has to do, but it gets a little too simple at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I know this is just doublespeak but if news organizations just called the terrorists 'murderers' I swear that would massively trim their sails ideologically.

    Giving them a special name like 'pirates' (either edition) or such just allows for them to hide behind concepts like 'another man's freedom fighter', not something a murderer has.
    Yes, especially as "terrorism" seems to have gradually lost its original meaning since 9/11.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Collectively shit ourselves would be say ludicrous surveillance laws or suspending Habeus Corpus... Oh wait.
    Why is Britain so keen on surveillance anyway? Is it clinging to the romantic image of spying and information war from WW2?

  19. #19
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    The terrorist sent a whatsapp before he committed the act. It was probably his exact plans in detail with timings, so the whole thing could have been prevented if the security services were able to read every message sent via every messaging service by everyone in the country in real time.
    Mind you, he probably took a piss beforehand as well so we should put cameras in everyone's toilets just to be safe.

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    The terrorist sent a whatsapp before he committed the act. It was probably his exact plans in detail with timings, so the whole thing could have been prevented if the security services were able to read every message sent via every messaging service by everyone in the country in real time.


    Unfortunately the thing is they probably really believe this!

    Why is Britain so keen on surveillance anyway? Is it clinging to the romantic image of spying and information war from WW2?


    The reason everyone is keen on it, to know exactly what people are up to. Very powerful thing that information.

    The red flags for me here are "deliberately created" and that there is a solution.

    I think it's incredibly complicated and that where we are now is a result of unintended consequences and that there was no plan, like most of history.

    So whilst the ideas are sound, perhaps it's a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc?
    Yeah I think this to, also I can understand why people on the Wikipedia page say its close to Conspiracy Theory because thats what they believe as well that terrorism is a government controlled thing to control us all.



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