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Thread: Natural Selection 2
05-11-2012, 09:25 PM #121
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- Jun 2011
06-11-2012, 03:01 AM #122
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
Heard an Onos refer to a rine commander in his com station as 'the chewy center'
06-11-2012, 05:44 PM #123
I've now given away my spare copy of NS2.
If you didn't receive a PM from me, then you were unlucky.
06-11-2012, 05:54 PM #124
06-11-2012, 06:05 PM #125
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
I have learned that the best way to play this game is as a marine, and act like a idiot but actually get the work done and avoid getting killed much. Probably the game is best played drunk, but I don't think alcohol is that great a thing.. so playing like a idiot must suffice.
Don't love the game, but is very likeable and a good pastime for wen the planetside 2 servers are down, so I am a happy camper :D
06-11-2012, 06:06 PM #126
I actually think playing as a marine is kind of boring, but a nice change of pace sometimes. I love playing as aliens though. Love it.
06-11-2012, 06:08 PM #127
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Like just now :(
Fucking Half-Life players.... can't play a manly version of Gloom!, have this decafeinated version with flat 2D levels with aliens that looks like farm animals!.
Last edited by Tei; 06-11-2012 at 06:10 PM.
06-11-2012, 06:10 PM #128
06-11-2012, 07:51 PM #129
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
they just need to figure out how to make the experience solid every time without relying on routine build orders. it's very hit or miss at the moment
casual play kind of works
competitive play probably works
but everything in the middle is inconsistent. the game depends entirely on the fact that in most situations ALL the good players won't be on the same team
unlike other shooters, rounds aren't quick. you can't just shuffle a few players after 10 minutes and try again. after a 45 minute game, half the players will have left...
06-11-2012, 08:10 PM #130
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
This is how teambased games have always worked, and there is still way more fun to be gleaned from a losing match in NS2 than from any match in a casual multiplayer game.
Rookie commanders will usually listen to advice if they are still learning, and if you ask nicely they will provide whatever upgrade that is needed to counter whatever the enemy team is doing.
Most players are willing to work together if there is some communication. And in 90 percent of matches I've been in (35 hours played so it's a pretty good sample) there is plenty of communication.
Also 45 min rounds? If all good players are on the same team the match tends to end to an early egg lock/power node rush or within 15 mins to early onos/grenade launchers.
Also not sure what you mean by routine build orders... success or defeat depends greatly on expanding in the appropriate rooms depending on where the enemy team spawned or where the pressure is or what upgrade paths the enemy team and your commander takes.
There are a lot of different tactics possible depending on what lifeforms are picked, if you get celerity first or not, if marines go for phase tech or other upgrades, exos or jet packs.
There is just so much meta game and variety here, if you fail to notice it then that is on you and not on the game.
I felt a few frustrations along the way too but they have ALWAYS been due to having to go through the learning curve to learn how to deal with the situations that frustrate you.
Every situation that might end up frustrating for one team is always the result of said team making big mistakes (and one assumes they learn from these mistakes, if not then well they won't like this game).
Last edited by Finicky; 06-11-2012 at 08:16 PM.
06-11-2012, 08:19 PM #131
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Ah right, NS1 had weldable doors and vents. You could lock down a room/hive pretty well. Always had to sneak in to open the vents. Maybe make it so you need bile bombs or infestation to break open weldable doors?
From my experience the game for marines seems to be more on the move and take as much as you can. Before you would slowly crawl out, place extractor, place sentries, move...to get a Hive. Lock it down with sentries and phase gates. Now there are 5 Hive/Command Center locations (NS1 had 3 hives and starter Marine location. Command Stations could be placed anywhere. Marines are required to hold 2 Hives with Command Stations to have Jetpacks and ExoSuits now.
There was a lot more ventilation shafts to traverse in the old maps. NS2 Maps seem to place a limit on vents.
06-11-2012, 08:24 PM #132
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
I'm really loving everything I'm seeing about this game (I wish I'd heard of it earlier), but sadly I can't afford it as yet. Whenever I manage to pick it up though I'll try and find an RPS group to play with, this game with a bit of coordination seems like it would be absolutely amazing.
06-11-2012, 09:10 PM #133
06-11-2012, 09:23 PM #134
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
The game wasn't designed to be fun in the end-game. It's about grabbing territory, denying expansion, attacking bases, raiding, making resource management / tech decisions, etc. When it becomes just about defending territory after everything is already researched, the core actions that individual soldiers are doing are simply not interesting enough to support prolonged games. if a game goes into overtime it should be thrilling and exciting. NS2 becomes boring.
06-11-2012, 09:51 PM #135
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
The most stalemates I see is when Aliens are still on 2 Hive late. Its like a slow death. Get that 3rd, they roll with Stomp and Umbra.
Haven't played enough to see some good Exo suit vs 3 hive alien.
06-11-2012, 10:47 PM #136
Exos are a death trap. Aliens will often win against noob teams that go for exo because most of the marines will buy them. What you end up having is a lot of not very mobile siege weapons that cant do anything when their base is being attacked and they are half way across the map. The commander beacons the few players who were smart enough not to get an exo and the exos are stranded without welders.
On weldable objects and doors, they were in earlier builds but were too overpowered and were scrapped. You can achieve the same thing with a robotics factory or armory if you really want to.
As for gamelength, the designers have said that the goal is, on average, 20 minute long matches. Long and slow games where aliens die slow or marines just sit in their last base is really because the players want it. What they ought to do is read the game and agree that they have lost and have no chance of winning, and then say gg and go back to the ready room. Sadly, most people fail to understand the concept of an honourable yield.
06-11-2012, 10:47 PM #137
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
Let me elaborate:
Marines have a kill switch, it's called the power node. (I'm going to assume you are talking about turtling marines here, because once the aliens lose their second hive and can't recap it they can't turtle at all and it is game over)
Just because new players don't always know how to go for it and go for the chair instead or run in one by one and fail to finish off the marine team does not mean you should conclude from that that the game isn't finely balanced or well thought out.
I've come across a few games like that too (not since yesterday, people seem to have picked up on it), and it is enough to just be friendly and explain to the newbies that if they want to kill the command station they have to go for the power together so the marines can't spawn.
What you call end game doesn't even exist in any normal pub match where the players aren't completely green (and green players generally tend to listen well anyhow). Oni and bilebomb are game enders, just like grenade launchers backed up by an exo are game enders.
Once the fight for zone control, efficiency and resource control has played out and one team has come out completely on top (secured the map enough that the other team cannot have a second hive/command station) the round is over. The onos and gorge kill the power , or the marines egg lock the aliens , or people simply gg and stop resisting. Match ends, start over.
That is how it should be, the gameplay is over at this point.
Your assumption that this isn't a good team game is just silly, you claim the games can't swing back in the favor of another team which is nonsense,but that is exactly what NS2 is good at.
Watch some competitive games to see exactly how often this happens. It happens regularly in pub games as well.
You have to know the com mechanics to understand why:
-aliens require a second hive to drop onos eggs and to provide upgrades for the team, upgrade shells can be destroyed to severely cripple the alien team, skulks don't scale like marines do in fighting prowess (they scale in mobility) so losing a vulnerable fade or lerk or losing a second hive can quickly turn a game around.
-marines require power for their upgrades and structures to work and to be able to spawn , exos can't beacon or use phase gates (every exo deployment represents an opportunity for the alien team on the other side of the map or on the marine base ), jetpacks are costly and dying with them will backfire hard. Weapons are dropped upon death,phase gates are costly and can (and often do) backfire if the marine team gets outplayed.
The ONE thing this game absolutely nails above everything else is never turning into a meatgrinder, and that is exactly what you are accusing it of.... it just makes no sense.
Meatgrinder battles of attrition only happen if both teams are incompetent rookies totally incapable of basic coordination on a power node, I've only seen this happen twice in 35 hours of play, both times it took one of the oni players 20 minutes to get it in their thick skull that they aren't supposed to rush into marine spawn on their own and because the alien com wasn't expanding and putting a drifer + eggs into the adjacent rooms. (optional, but it helps when your onos player is a rookie)
But they did eventually get it (some people are just slow) and I'm sure it was a hard learned lesson.
Point is: marines can NOT turtle like you claim they do! The aliens can fail hard enough to not be able to finish the fight, but that is rare and down to lack of basic player ability.
Long competitive battles are always exciting to watch because the advantage will swing between the teams as they manage to coordinate good blows on the enemy resources, map control or game ending units.
The interesting tactics and teamplay are retained until the very end in those.
I'd suggest you put some more hours into the game and get a good grasp on the mechanics (especially the new ones like power nodes) before starting to make assumptions about game balance and game design.
Last edited by Finicky; 06-11-2012 at 11:10 PM.
07-11-2012, 12:50 AM #138
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
I have no problems with how the game should be. People should surrender. People should know how to win efficiently. But they don't.
I really don't care how they make the gameplay work as intended, just that it happens. having a high frequency of quality matches almost matters more than design nowadays for multiplayer games.
whether they adopt ratings / ladders / lobbies (absolutely vital in the RTS world) or more reachable victory conditions (every good shooter has this) doesn't matter to me.
i just don't want to be able to hold out for 30 mins after the game is "over." either give me a viable way of making a comeback or give the enemy a quick way to finish me off.
i know the actual true stalemates are rare now because so many players are new, but once people learn how to live long enough to get full tech, those will happen a lot more frequently. 2 hive 4 harvester vs. 2 cc 4 extractor with full tech on each side might go on forever in a static way depending on how the game's balance evolves
07-11-2012, 03:19 AM #139
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
Watch competitive matches, they don't play out at all like you suggest they do, plenty of 2-10 minute matches, loaaads of 20 minute ones.
I have had very enjoyable matches on average pubbing.
As I said, I went through the same phase you went through but once I learned how to crush a turtling marine team it's a non issue.
You should never ask for ladders or lobbies (UGH), dedicated server communities have always been self organising and self regulating.
You are supposed to make a number of servers your 'home servers' and find a regular crowd of returning players to play with. (community is so good in NS2 that pubbing isn't even a problem regardless)
Any game not having lobbies or matchmaking is a massive plus, not a negative.
And again, players do have a quick way to end matches once they have zone control... one that works every time. The game also has lots of mechanics to enable quickly turning the tide.
You pretend these upgrades are permanent, they are not.
I explained to you why marines can't turtle vs a team that knows how to play, if you don't want to hear it then I've said all I can say :p
The vast majority of people I meet ingame absolutely loves the game as it is, Uwe spent years and years and years balancing NS2.
Maybe players unfamiliar with the game should reserve their jumping to conclusions before becoming that loud vocal minority.
I don't intend this post to sound hostile but you shouldn't make false claims.
07-11-2012, 03:25 AM #140
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
Finicky's beginner and intermediate PubTics : (feel free to add to these or correct mistakes, I might make a topic if we can get a good compilation of gameplay tips and general advice together. I will add structure later , for now they'll be kind of all over the place).
Basic Marine tips/info :
*when you die and drop your weapon it can be picked up again! It despawns after maybe 30seconds, tell a nearby teammate to get that fancy GL or shotgun for you or if you spawn close enough you may be able to recover it yourself. If your team doesn't recycle their weapons in this way then things aren't going to go very well for you.
*It takes 3 bites with 0 armor upgrades for a skulk to kill you, 2 if you get parasited first since it does 10 damage.
*Make your shotgun shots count ! : delay your shot by half a second if it lets the skulk get close enough to do full damage, a full hit with a shotgun will one shot a skulk who doesn't have carapace, with carapace it takes 2 direct hits. Aim first then shoot... may sound basic to you but a lot of people suck at shotguns because modern games don't teach people to aim before shooting anymore.
*your pistol is the shit! : it has greater burst potential than the AR since you can fire as fast as you can click.
Gorges are easy to hit and will go down quite easily to pistol fire. It's obviously much harder to use against fast skulks or lerks, but it's always way better than reloading your AR while under attack.
*ARs do more dpm against Onos than shotguns
*weld your friends' armor back up between attacks if you need to be hold your ground.
*Turn off your flashlight and crouchwalk to not give away your position when the situation calls for it, a sneaky marine protecting a friend can wreck a skulk attack or prevent skulks from going in hiding when they hear you coming to stop them from munching up an extractor.
I rarely see sneaky marine pubs, but they will absolutely ruin your day as skulk and generally prevent you from getting shit done.
*shotguns crap all over lerks
*call for commands if you don't know what to do, just press H
*when you notice a skulk trying to go for an extractor, or after forcing him to retreat , or when losing him after noticing him, make sure to retreat to a hallway or any place where you can't be flank and the skulk has to traverse some ground to get to you.
The skulk is only interested in the extractor, killing you is but a means to an end, if you survive and waste his time there (even if you feel the urge to repair a half hp extractor, it still ticks resources but won't for long if you die) then your team has a better chance to win.
These things add up over time and holding extractors (and destroying enemy ones) is key to winning.
Retreating guard marines win games, careless deathmathing rambos lose games, on both sides.
Basic marine commander tips for beginners:
*phase tech but especially turrets cost resources that are better spent on shotguns and upgrades early in the game.
A good phasegate can be nice but you'll need to babysit it (check the map often for flashing phasegate icon when no marines are near it) and your marines will have to be on the ball to protect it.
Losing a phasegate that was build before upgrades arrive instantly puts you on a path to losing the game.
Any skulk with a brain is going to take some time off of killing extractors/supporting teammates to shit on those turrets and make those ill spent resources backfire hard. They can be useful but they are very situational.
*mines are excellent to protect phasegates or any structure that is going to be in a vulnerable position for a while
*if your marines are pushing far from a phasegate or spawnpoint or base, plop down an armory for them so they don't run out of ammo and can heal their hp and armor, they will be grateful.
*warn your team where you intend to expand to so they know what is going on, don't put your com centers where the aliens can get to them more easily than your marines can (this goes for alien coms too)
This is a very important basic part of communication in NS2
*don't build exos before you have lvl 3 armor and lvl 3 weapons, just don't do it... a lvl 1 armor exo is going to die super fast and will just be a liability.
*jetpacks are a good counter against an early onos, as is weapons lvl 3
*you can build 2 arms labs (if you hold enough extractors! to warrant doing it!) so you can research weap and armor upgrades at the same time, this can obviously backfire if you lose your extractors.
*build a second spawn portal in your base early if you suspect a skulk rush or if marines are in a vulnerable position. Marine's biggest advantage is that they spawn way faster than aliens do if you have multiple spawn portals.
*LEAVE YOUR CHAIR TO HELP DEAL YOUR TEAM WITH SKULK INVASIONS!! Don't leave it if you are alone in your base, but helping your team take down 2 skulks when you have 2 marines in your base can mean the difference between losing or winning.
Too many coms never leave their chair.
*don't get greedy and build stuff your team can't possibly defend.... building an extra forward extractor close to where alien eggs are when you only have one marine on that flank is going to just be a waste of resources most of the time. Same with com stations.
*when your team assaults a hive and you have some spare resources to use : scan the hive room for them! It'll help their push immensely. Same goes for when your team attempts to take/retake double resource node rooms.
If you can identify an enemy carapace shell don't be afraid to mark it and shout out for people to focus it down, losing carapace sets aliens back immensely for several crucial minutes once shotguns and weapon upgrades are out.
Basic Alien lifeform tips/info:
*press B every time you spawn to assign upgrades, this is so super basic but many new players forget or even don't know
*you can parasite enemy buildings to alert your team of their presence on the map!
*a parasited marine at the start of the game (before armor upgrades) will only take 2 bites to kill!
*marines can't see through spores (aliens can so it's easy to not notice)
*bile bomb is amazing against structures and even exos, onos + bile bomb gorge = base devestation
*hydras cost Player resources! Keep that in mind before idly planting or wasting them
*don't attack marine's head on as skulk (you'll die almost every time and be a liability to your team), never give away your position when planning an ambush because it destroys your chances of success, use the darkness or ceilings to retake cover and re-ambush when it makes sense, there is no reason to commit to the death to every attack.
*if you are alone as a skulk you should be doing one of these :
-Be behind enemy lines munching on extractors/stopping a marine from rebuilding his extractor
-scouting the map for marine movement, enemy phasegate placements if there is a suspicious amount of pressure, finding out where enemy com stations are, parasiting large groups of marines to alert your team of their intentions.
If you aren't doing one of those then you should not be lone wolfing but hanging out with a fade/gorge/other skulks.
Lone wolf deathmatching is useless and loses games. (this is a very important one)
*fades are for hit and run tactics, if you expect to run into 2-3 marines with shotguns and stand there swatting at them then you are going to have a very bad day.
*don't go fade before you have blink unless it really makes sense to in a situation , don't go onos before you have carapace unless it is in a defensive role (hold a flank for your team near a hive)
*look out for crags, the commander can put them almost anywhere it is a structure that heals you
*if you are a lerk or a gorge then you are well suited at taking out mines , lerks can also perch at a distance and kill turret batteries with spike spam from a safe distance in certain rooms so a skulk can go clean up the turrets safely.
*hold space to glide as lerk, this also allows your energy to regen (I personally didn't notice this till the third time I tried lerk:p )
*all aliens move faster on infestation
*if your team is in dire need of a specific upgrade and the commander puts down a hive to get access to it, then please do go gorge (if noone else there already did) to help build it.
Getting carapace faster against lvl 1-2 weapons can make all the difference.
General NS2 101 :
*Don't aimlessly deathmatch! If your killing or chasing an enemy does not serve a purpose like allowing you to kill an extractor/defend one/do damage to upgrade structures/damage a hive/protect your phasegates/protect your friend's backs then you are wasting your time and already in the process of losing.
*Interupting an enemy who is in the middle of making a mistake is RUDE.
If you see 2-3 marines hang out at one of their extractors doing nothing but defend or maybe rebuild while 4 skulks on your team have announced that they are going for the power node in enemy base/are busy destroying structures near aspawn point and you kill them then you just fucked your team royally up the ass.
If 2 skulks are wasting their time on a power node in an extractor room (extractor down) while your team is pushing a hive or egg locking them or killing harvesters, then GOOD, let them waste their time and help your friends or scout or do anything useful, as soon as your friends are done you can go back and repair that power node, it doesn't cost any resources.
There are lots of situations where it's better to just let a marine or alien waste their time on useless shit while your team is wrecking havoc elsewhere, or where your killing can ruin their hive/com center power node push.
Overly feisty fades are most often guilty of this.
Think before you act in general.
Momentum, momentum, momentum!
If you can't capitalise on wiping the other team or don't always have a clear goal with your actions (that isn't "kill aliens") then all those upgrades and all that advantage is going to waste as you lose steam and the enemy team catches up.
That being said, in some situations turtling and just killing enemies can pay off (buying time for hive to grow, buy time while you have more extractors and better positioning, buy time to wait for ticks for a key upgrade)
Seriously, if you don't have a plan 100 percent of the time , then it is usually better in those moments to just stop, hold C and look what needs to be done, ask your team what is going on (upgrades, enemy base positions, counters) and do something useful.
Last edited by Finicky; 07-11-2012 at 03:56 AM.