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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    mod note: split from The Witcher 3 thread.

    I wish bandits would yield sometimes. After a murderous frenzy, Geralt covered in the blood of his enemies without having been hit once, you'd think that the last poor sod would try to run far away instead of thinking "Yeah, I'm the one who's going to kill him"
    Last edited by alms; 06-08-2016 at 08:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    I wish bandits would yield sometimes. After a murderous frenzy, Geralt covered in the blood of his enemies without having been hit once, you'd think that the last poor sod would try to run far away instead of thinking "Yeah, I'm the one who's going to kill him"
    People keep on bashing on orginal Fallout games but that was the last cRPG that I played in which enemies actually run away from fights.
    In modern cRPG, no one yields unlss it is scripted, no one run away, it's just stupid.

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Hang on who the fuck has bashed the original Fallout games? And why haven't they been tarred and feathered?

  4. #4
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    And yeah, who on earth would bash Fallout?
    Last edited by alms; 06-08-2016 at 08:01 PM. Reason: splitting

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    And yeah, who on earth would bash Fallout?
    ISIS members

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikey View Post
    I wish bandits would yield sometimes. After a murderous frenzy, Geralt covered in the blood of his enemies without having been hit once, you'd think that the last poor sod would try to run far away instead of thinking "Yeah, I'm the one who's going to kill him"
    I agree completely there. It's just bizarre to see them keeping on trying to fight, when they've seen me use magic and steel to destroy their friends, and I'm undamaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naramsin View Post
    In modern cRPG, no one yields unlss it is scripted, no one run away, it's just stupid.
    I could swear there was some game in the last five years I played where they did run away when it made sense. Maybe not an RPG though - one of the Far Cry games maybe?

    The last game I played where they definitely did was World of Warcraft. They may even still do it (I can't remember if they took it out). They'd run off and get more mobs. Humanoids I think almost always ran - and it could be very dangerous in dungeons or even outdoors near big camps. Dark Age of Camelot had that too (again I think maybe humanoids only - but maybe not). Everquest might have, I can't recall. It's not uncommon in MMOs, anyway.

    I suspect the reason it's quite rare in SP CRPGs is that it's significantly dangerous and annoying. If enemies routinely ran away, it would drastically change the assumptions about combat - one of the primary goals would be preventing enemies from fleeing, when that isn't even a consideration in most games. Not that that'd be a bad thing - but it'd be very different. I know from MMOs that it can also be incredibly frustrating to try and stop people getting away - again, not necessarily a bad thing but...

    It also requires an extra level of AI as you have to have enemies react to other enemies fleeing into them in a way that makes sense (do they help them or kill them? I mean, in The Witcher 3 99% of the time it'd be some poor bandit fleeing into a bunch of ghouls or the like so and they already have the AI for that...! But one bandit group fleeing into another?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Hang on who the fuck has bashed the original Fallout games? And why haven't they been tarred and feathered?
    It is sadly not uncommon to come across some gamer who says "I played Fallout 1 or 2 and it wasn't all that... turn-based combat sucks, the story was lame and the graphics were terrible. Fallout 4 is way better." (I fucking kid you not, I wish I did). Whether these people are trolling or whether they are fourteen or whether they have terrible taste, I do not know, of course.

  7. #7
    Moderator alms's Avatar
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    mod note: I've split this subthread from The Witcher 3 as I felt the way it was developing had nothing to do with that topic of discussion, and it emerges at regular intervals, so it probably deserves its own thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by LexW View Post
    It is sadly not uncommon to come across some gamer who says "I played Fallout 1 or 2 and it wasn't all that... turn-based combat sucks, the story was lame and the graphics were terrible. Fallout 4 is way better." (I fucking kid you not, I wish I did). Whether these people are trolling or whether they are fourteen or whether they have terrible taste, I do not know, of course.
    It's also not uncommon for cult games/classics to be hyped to high heavens and back, often by those who have played them at the time, who however have a blind point, not shared by new players, in that they are often not capable of appreciating how a game has aged in ways that do drag for a new player. This is not strictly age-related, as I do have myself trouble getting into old games that I have not played at the time - while I don't have this problem with the games I did.

    I do have special appreciation for players who can get into old games they've never played before: time has moved on, and there is a barrier to overcome, not everybody will be motivated to do that, what with the wealth of good or excellent games with contemporaries sensibilities, or in spite of their efforts, manage to succeed.

    Proof is easily provided by all those devs who took an age-old paradigm and refreshed, twisted it, so that it has great appeal for the general audience. One who manages that feat, can also make a significant amount of money in the process.

    "Bashing", however, doesn't seem accurate to me: "bouncing off" would seem more appropriate.

    Bashing usually implies a malicious intent, and at least a certain familiarity with the game, acquired either directly or indirectly; however, I can see how someone who has been given stellar expectations for the original games from fans, would then feel a little disappointed and/or grumpy for not being immediately blinded by sheer greatness they were told about.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    "Bashing", however, doesn't seem accurate to me: "bouncing off" would seem more appropriate.

    Bashing usually implies a malicious intent, and at least a certain familiarity with the game, acquired either directly or indirectly; however, I can see how someone who has been given stellar expectations for the original games from fans, would then feel a little disappointed and/or grumpy for not being immediately blinded by sheer greatness they were told about.
    I don't really agree. It's one thing to say:

    "I couldn't get into the game at all, it was soooooo ooooold! Argh unplayably old!". Understandable and fine.

    But that is completely distinct from "FALLOUT 2 WAS SHITE LOLZ. Shite graphix, shite gameplay, shite interface, shite story. Fallout 4 is awesum tho."

    The latter is bashing, and it's what I've seen. People claiming they've played Fallout 1/2 particularly, then saying how rubbish they were, particularly Fallout 2. Not able to demonstrate much familiarity if questioned, or unwilling to do so, but clearly they have at least turned the game on. They may, in reality, have "bounced off", but they portray themselves as understanding the game and being able to say it's rubbish. Is that malicious? I'd say so. Does it require real understanding of the game? No.

  9. #9
    Moderator alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LexW View Post
    But that is completely distinct from "FALLOUT 2 WAS SHITE LOLZ. Shite graphix, shite gameplay, shite interface, shite story. Fallout 4 is awesum tho."

    The latter is bashing, and it's what I've seen.
    I'd call that having a mouth and an impellent urge to use it. Everyone is sure entitled to their opinion, yet not every opinion is worth listening to.

    To bash, IMO, one needs to have an argument - not necessarily a good, insightful, or compelling one, but not just "I like this, not that, full stop". Tastes are eminently personal, and no productive discussion can take place when there is just preference and no argument.

    Sure, a lot of discussion revolves around arguments that are actually very embellished and overbuilt versions of "I like this, and not that" - at the end of the day, it's one right to retain their preferences, as long as they don't expect anyone else to take them as anything different, or more meaningful than simple taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by LexW View Post
    People claiming they've played Fallout 1/2 particularly, then saying how rubbish they were, particularly Fallout 2. Not able to demonstrate much familiarity if questioned, or unwilling to do so, but clearly they have at least turned the game on. They may, in reality, have "bounced off", but they portray themselves as understanding the game and being able to say it's rubbish.
    That's just foolish: only a matter of time before everyone realizes that person doesn't know what they're talking about.

    I've seen people make pretty decent arguments about games they've not touched at all - but that requires an effort to gather and process enough information, so that the argument can be delivered in a believable fashion.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tikey View Post
    mod note: split from The Witcher 3 thread.

    I wish bandits would yield sometimes. After a murderous frenzy, Geralt covered in the blood of his enemies without having been hit once, you'd think that the last poor sod would try to run far away instead of thinking "Yeah, I'm the one who's going to kill him"
    Assassin's Creed 1 got that right, people would straight up panic and flee once you got a frenzy kill going :D

    It was never seen again in the series :(

    Ass Creed 1 got so much right the rest screwed up, and so much wrong.
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  11. #11
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Hang on who the fuck has bashed the original Fallout games?
    I have.

    Goddammit Ian.

  12. #12
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    Some relevant posts:

    Libraries and Liquor: A Day in the Life by Adam
    If it weren’t for Dishonored, I’d be forced to declare representations of pubs a failure. The Hound Pits is a brilliant snapshot of the pubs I grew up with though, from the booths to the beertaps. It’s a fictional pub made by people who have been inside real pubs and paid attention. The lighting, the grimy floor, the altar-like structure of the bar – I’ve been there.

    Despite that, The Hound Pits isn’t my local. I’ve spent a lot of time there but if I’m going to pull up a chair and grab a pint, you’ll most likely find me at The Blue Boar.

    And that’s where my day ends, in the company of the dregs and the froth of Britain. The Blue Boar may be a tavern in a fantasy world but it functions as a place, with comings and goings, drinking and music. Dishonored’s boozey retreat looks authentic but it’s a meeting place for people with a purpose that removes the original purpose of the building itself. In Ultima VII, it’s possible to spend an evening eating, drinking and making merry – the tavern, for once, isn’t a place to pick up quests or party members.
    The best RPG Worlds by Richard
    Pretty much inevitable, I suppose. Ultima is one of the rare games that not only offered return trips to the same places and same characters rather than merely the same world, but let us be part of literally centuries of its history. Returning to it wasn’t simply playing a new game, but returning to a second home – catching up with old friends, seeing the rise and fall of cities and dreams, and being welcomed back with open arms every time, give or take the occasional near-sacrifice incident.

    But there’s more to Britannia than that. It’s one of the few CRPG settings built entirely on human principles. No gods, just man. Its focus on virtue isn’t simply skin-deep, despite how some Avatars might choose to play, but something that defines the entire setting. Every town, every quest, is tied to this bigger philosophical picture that simultaneously believes in the fundamental goodness of people while accepting that the path to virtue isn’t always an easy one. Even creator Richard Garriott’s author-avatar Lord British is regularly shown to be in the wrong, with the Avatar him or herself intended as a symbol of what people can be rather than simply the strongman that they can’t. As much as it’s easy to mock the ye olde talke, which make no mistake, only Ultima is permitted to do at this point, and as many continuity errors and bad sequels as it accumulated, the philosophical coherence of the place made returning more than just casual business. Other worlds called for heroes. Britannia needed its Avatar.
    Living Worlds: The Joy of NPC Schedules by Adam
    High fidelity visuals can convince me I’m looking at a beautiful series of paintings or sculptures. Believable inhabitants can convince me I’m walking through a world.
    Voices in your ears by Richard
    But Ultima VII… that was a different story. If you had a SoundBlaster, the quest took on a whole different atmosphere thanks to the villain, the Guardian, being able to break into your game at a whim. He could do it without sound, his big head being superimposed onto the screen with a caption, but that wasn’t half as effective as his gentle sentiment to “Sleep, Avatar…” when you went to bed, or finger-wagging “Thou shouldst not do that, Avatar!” when you inevitably pinched something. The use of speech turned him from a villain who honestly didn’t really do anything much into a focus for the entire quest. He wasn’t in some spooky castle. He was in your mind, slowly stripping away the pretence of having Britannia’s best interests at heart. Every time he spoke, his booming voice – the only voice in the game – was a mini jump-scare. Loud cacklings. False guidance. That smug sense of power; of being able to let you go about your business because failure isn’t even on the table.

    The result was one of RPGdom’s most memorable, most intimidating, most active feeling villains, despite, as said, him not even having a presence in the world until the final five seconds of the game. And also of course, looking a bit like a poorly constructed Muppet. (Even Origin admitted it, via Easter Egg…)
    Gaming made me: Ultima VII by Adam
    When does that happen? When was the last time you played a game and inadvertently learned how to create a useful object in the world simply by watching a character perform the steps to craft it? In fact, there’s that term: ‘crafting’. Ultima VII didn’t claim to have ‘crafting’, it just figured that if you had all the right ingredients, why the heck wouldn’t you be able to bake a loaf of bread?
    What I Write About When I Write About Games by Adam
    Aesthetic requirements and ambitions can harness technology wonderfully in service of world-building but it’s the worlds and lives that we build for ourselves that I find the most compelling
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  13. #13
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    I always find it annoying in games when enemies would run away. You'd have to make them give full XP and drop all their loot and never ever come back again for me to not be annoyed by this happening regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    It's also not uncommon for cult games/classics to be hyped to high heavens and back, often by those who have played them at the time, who however have a blind point, not shared by new players, in that they are often not capable of appreciating how a game has aged in ways that do drag for a new player. This is not strictly age-related, as I do have myself trouble getting into old games that I have not played at the time - while I don't have this problem with the games I did.
    This seems fair. Looking through my GOG old games collection, most of the games I'd already played I still like and can play smoothly, and most of the games I'd never played originally I didn't like upon playing them now, or at least found extremely awkward to play.

    Fallout 1 is a strange case because of those old games that everyone likes that I don't, it's probably the only one that I don't understand why it's popular. There wasn't anything about it that grabbed me as interesting.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Fallout 1 is a strange case because of those old games that everyone likes that I don't, it's probably the only one that I don't understand why it's popular. There wasn't anything about it that grabbed me as interesting.
    Now or back in the day?

    cause in 1997 there wasnt any other post apocalyptic rpg out there. The setting was very unique.
    Other reasons why it was popular.

    Customization of your character - no class, no restrictions on build.
    Great story - The conflict in California, with super mutants, raiders, BOS, backstory on war. All of very high quality even compared to modern games.
    Rich conversation trees.
    Game had lots of equipment your characters could use. armours, guns, sledghammers etc.
    Freedom of movement. Exploring the wasteland was your choice.
    and again. Setting. the world created by black isle was just so good and unseen really since first wasteland.


    but i admit the games did not age well.

  15. #15
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    I always find it annoying in games when enemies would run away. You'd have to make them give full XP and drop all their loot and never ever come back again for me to not be annoyed by this happening regularly.
    Getting XP for killing enemies shouldn't even be a thing. It forces you into combat, especially people who are always min-maxing their characters. DE:HR tried to reward player with XP for sneaking and that was broken too, because you could sneak and then get back to knock some guards for even more XP. Why we still use XP in modern RPGs?

    Let's take Stalker and packs of blind dogs. In most RPGs you would attack them to get some XP. In Stalker? Well, better just move away, there's no point of wasting ammo and medkits on them.





    Re: Fallout, based on 2-3 attempts (a few hours each) to play it.

    Interface is shit and I have a feeling it was a shit even back then. There's nothing worse in gaming than old game with clunky GUI and/or controls. I can stand bad graphics (I think every isometric prerendered cRPG have a shitty graphics that are a pixelized noise mess trying too hard to cram too many little realistic details into 640x480px screen, wish they had a clean view like in SNES jRPGs), but not bad interface.
    Turn based combat is chore, especially when there's a lot enemies on screen. Even combat speed at fastest possible option will still test your patience.
    Why should I care for getting that water chip for my vaultmates? I do not know any of them. Does they have some personalities? Oh, who cares, fuck them. I wish I could just play, then get a message that everyone there died so I could say "ok, I guess, lol" and move on. No water chip for you. Yes, I'm a monster.

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    I am not a big proponent of turn based rpg combat, though there are exceptions like Divinity: Original Sin (though the plot and writing there is very meh), as it often devolves into 2 people stood still taking it in turns to slap each other. Which reminds of playground games. Not really the point though, the writing, setting, tone etc. on Fallout blows 3 out of the water with no survivors.


    Also pubs in games... Dishonoured's remains the only thing I've seen in a game that reminds me of a pub. I think Dishonoured 3 had one but it was laughable how little time the devs had spent in one.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    Enemies running away would be good, if killing and looting enemies wasn't the basis of all cRPGs.
    Personally, I'd much rather cRPGs gave you XP for completing quests, and left the method up to you... but even then you'd be left with the loot issue.

    It would however solve one of my main issues with most cRPGs... endless endless battles that are 70% against the same enemies you've killed 100s of times before and have already proved you can kill.

    The Witcher 1 had some kind of charms/repellents that you could buy to repel common lower level monsters such as Drowners. They seemed to only become available after you'd killed quite a few of them.
    At the point I got distracted from the game I was trying to decide if it was a good idea to buy one... whether the benefits of being able to navigate the level without endless filler battles would be outweighed by possibly lost XP and loot.

    PS/
    Last edited by BillButNotBen; 07-08-2016 at 12:41 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    Enemies running away would be good, if killing and looting enemies wasn't the basis of all cRPGs.
    Personally, I'd much rather cRPGs gave you XP for completing quests, and left the method up to you... but even then you'd be left with the loot issue.
    All loot/XP problems are solvable, but it's always a trade-off, in the end.

    XP for quests produces is a trade-off, for example, in that it forces you into a counter-naturalistic situation where you can solve a mission by shooting everyone in the face, then just level up your lockpicking or whatever, which feels odd and can encourage some slightly strange behaviour.

    Gaining skill for what you actually do, though, has it's own set of pitfalls, because it can force you into situations which are either dull and repetitive, or where you're having to do something that's basically a bad idea just to "raise the skill". It also tends to require fairly elaborate systems to control the skill gain.

    XP for killing/defeating enemies has very obvious pitfalls, but does have the upside of making it very obvious to the player how he can get some actual XP and level up, if quests are frustrating him (maybe they're too hard at his current level, or he doesn't understand them), potentially allowing him to progress.

    Then you have hybrid systems, where for example you might, you gain skill for doing, but can also choose to increase certain skills depending on certain circumstances, which tends to be a horrible disaster.

    With loot there are even more potential approaches, but one that meshes well with XP for quests (however they are completed) is to have most loot not come from dead/defeated enemies, but from the world, and to have powerful crafting that doesn't rely on a skill, but on NPCs and "blueprints" (whatever you call them). Or you can simply narrow the progression range on items/loot which means constantly upgrading is not important.

    Talking of classic vs modern, the Ultima games (particularly 6/7) did precisely this - a sword was a sword was a sword. You might get a slightly better sword, but you weren't going from like a weapon that did, say, 10 damage, to one that did 50 or 100 (yes, the glass sword did 255, but it was single-use consumable, effectively, not a weapon in a normal sense). I feel like Ultima Underworld, Gothic and so on were similar (but it's been so long). You got stuff that was better, but like maybe twice as good at max, not many times as good.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    Let's take Stalker and packs of blind dogs. In most RPGs you would attack them to get some XP. In Stalker? Well, better just move away, there's no point of wasting ammo and medkits on them.
    This this a hundred times this, insanely the best representations of these practical mercenary choices are in Roguelikes.

    Cave full of something nasty? Nah mate, off to the pub.
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  20. #20
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    Talking of classic vs modern, the Ultima games (particularly 6/7) did precisely this - a sword was a sword was a sword. You might get a slightly better sword, but you weren't going from like a weapon that did, say, 10 damage
    I'm repeating myself for 100th time, but anyway, Dark Souls 1 takes it to the extreme and basically every weapon except of maybe daggers (and even them are useful for backstabs) and 5-10 of some exotic gimmicky things is worth using and none of them will ever outclass each other. That's certainly a thing I want to see in most RPGs.

    I feel like Ultima Underworld, Gothic and so on were similar (but it's been so long). You got stuff that was better, but like maybe twice as good at max, not many times as good.
    Gothic wasn't quite like that, I think best weapons can have 4-5x more damage than starting weapons, although most of gear you have at the beginning have names like rusty sword so it's still rather realistic approach that high quality palladin sword blessed with magic will have more damage than piece of junk made by smith's apprentice.

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