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  1. #1
    Lesser Hivemind Node TechnoJellyfish's Avatar
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    Bioshock, Trump, anarcho-syndicalist communists, What Conservatives Want - One Thread

    mod note: this is a split from The What Are You Playing? thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Mushroom-11: what if World of Goo and Gish had a baby ...and you wanted to smother it in the cradle? ...before it turns into the Gozer of Fiddliness and Everything Finicky?
    Just finished the thing. Neat concept, well executed (from a technical standpoint), pleasing art-style (somewhat reminiscent of Amanita Design's games), unexpectedly good soundtrack (I wasn't really familiar with FSOL until now). And yet I can totally relate to your assessment. Some of the puzzles are way more frustrating than they ever needed to be (bamboo wheel, anyone?). If a given obstacle takes me 30 seconds to determine what has to be done and maybe another minute to figure out exactly how this is achieved, it surely shouldn't take me 10 minutes to swing and waggle my mouse around just the right way. Probably won't touch it again.

    In other news, I started what has to be my 4th attempt to play through BioShock. Goodness, aesthetically, this game holds up incredibly well. Sure, the low-res textures and low polygon models hint at its age but I can't think of a game that makes more effective use of lighting and dynamic shadows to this very day.

    If only I could figure out the reason for why I usually end up abandoning it halfway through ...

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Whoa Jellyfish, that sure was a long time. welcome back!
    Why, thank you, I'm flattered ... Good to see you, too!
    Last edited by alms; 23-05-2016 at 03:58 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoJellyfish View Post
    If only I could figure out the reason for why I usually end up abandoning it halfway through ...
    You drop it because secretly, Bioshock is a bit rubbish, linear, boring combat, hyper telegraphed plot (except Fort Frolic which is essentially an unconnected sub plot, and also the best part).

    Bioshock was a walking simulator with forced combat, I recommend you use a cheat for infinite health and eve, no more raiding bins, no more cuddling up to hacked turrets to preserve health, just tear through it. Then play Bioshock 2 properly on an easier difficulty, and just skip Infinite, it's a turd sundae with a DLC cherry on top which in my mind was insufficient to offset the terribleness.

    However, if you already own infinite, I really enjoyed the arena combat DLC, it had some brilliant setups to the fights.
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  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Eight Rooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    You drop it because secretly, Bioshock is a bit rubbish, linear, boring combat, hyper telegraphed plot (except Fort Frolic which is essentially an unconnected sub plot, and also the best part).

    Bioshock was a walking simulator with forced combat, I recommend you use a cheat for infinite health and eve, no more raiding bins, no more cuddling up to hacked turrets to preserve health, just tear through it. Then play Bioshock 2 properly on an easier difficulty, and just skip Infinite, it's a turd sundae with a DLC cherry on top which in my mind was insufficient to offset the terribleness.

    However, if you already own infinite, I really enjoyed the arena combat DLC, it had some brilliant setups to the fights.
    A big reason 2 is one of my favorite games of all time is that I actually enjoyed the combat for once. Actively forcing the player to make use of more than just the wrench (to be fair, I'm sure there are people who can kill the Big Sisters that way, but I'm not one of them) was the kind of kick in the pants the original sorely needed.
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  4. #4
    I rate 2 highly, but it was bloody hard for FPS beginners, it was curiously strategic and you never had too much of what you needed (unless you went drill expert/stealthy). Bio 2 made good on that Bio 1 trailer that showed what the daddy saw.
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  5. #5
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    The charge attack is one of the best parts of bioshock. And other details, like drizzle on your suit helmet, or the way the floor shakes as you dash around.
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  6. #6
    Moderator Squiz's Avatar
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    Bioshock 1 and Inf were not bad games, but some people sure have issues looking past the games' smugness. Just because something isn't as good as it thinks it is doesn't mean is crap. Would have loved to give Bio2 more than a passing look but alas, Games for Windows Live prevented me from ever saving.
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  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus L_No's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squiz View Post
    Bioshock 1 and Inf were not bad games, but some people sure have issues looking past the games' smugness. Just because something isn't as good as it thinks it is doesn't mean is crap. Would have loved to give Bio2 more than a passing look but alas, Games for Windows Live prevented me from ever saving.
    The cd key of my physical Bioshock 2 disc activated on Steam and I could download and play it without ever having to use GfWL. Might be worth a shot?
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  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    A big reason 2 is one of my favorite games of all time is that I actually enjoyed the combat for once. Actively forcing the player to make use of more than just the wrench (to be fair, I'm sure there are people who can kill the Big Sisters that way, but I'm not one of them) was the kind of kick in the pants the original sorely needed.
    But the game doesn't force the player to do anything, really. Die and you're back at the nearest Vita-Chamber, no worse for the wear, while the enemy retains the damage you inflicted before you died. The Vita-Chambers have infinite use: that's the complete opposite of incentivising a change of tactics as far as I'm concerned.

    A recent video from Wisecrack goes into more detail regarding this and a few other things that are possibly "ruining" gaming:

    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
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  9. #9
    Network Hub Det. Bullock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    But the game doesn't force the player to do anything, really. Die and you're back at the nearest Vita-Chamber, no worse for the wear, while the enemy retains the damage you inflicted before you died. The Vita-Chambers have infinite use: that's the complete opposite of incentivising a change of tactics as far as I'm concerned.

    A recent video from Wisecrack goes into more detail regarding this and a few other things that are possibly "ruining" gaming:

    That video is a bunch of elitist console-centric bullshit, any goddamn shooter on PC always had quicksaves since Wolfenstein 3D but nobody was lamenting that they were getting too easy.

    Hell, Far Cry 2 on PC had quicksaves, so no problems there for me.

    If anything the problem is when they force checkpoints only saves on PC because they designed the games primarily for TV boxes.
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  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wenz's Avatar
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    This year's pretty decent too. I don't have the strenght for the same topics on loop since forever.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squiz View Post
    Bioshock 1 and Inf were not bad games, but some people sure have issues looking past the games' smugness.
    Smugness? I think that's you reading that into Bioshock 1. Yeah, it has some things to say about Objectivism, but that's not particularly smug. If anything, it's an attack on smugness.

    I can see how you might interpret Bioshock Infinite as being that way, though I never did. It's still not a particularly popular interpretation.

    When I think back to the most common arguments about the games, they're never about supposed "smugness." They're about the actual shooting mechanics being not so great.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Eight Rooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    But the game doesn't force the player to do anything, really. Die and you're back at the nearest Vita-Chamber, no worse for the wear, while the enemy retains the damage you inflicted before you died. The Vita-Chambers have infinite use: that's the complete opposite of incentivising a change of tactics as far as I'm concerned.
    First thing I always did was turn Vita Chambers off, and I mean "forced" as in "If you try running up to a Big Sister and hitting her with a wrench you will more than likely die, over and over and over and over, until you wonder if there's a more efficient way to get past this". As opposed to the first game where sure, you could mess around with the whole arsenal, but there was no real reason to most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    Smugness? I think that's you reading that into Bioshock 1. Yeah, it has some things to say about Objectivism, but that's not particularly smug. If anything, it's an attack on smugness.

    I can see how you might interpret Bioshock Infinite as being that way, though I never did. It's still not a particularly popular interpretation.

    When I think back to the most common arguments about the games, they're never about supposed "smugness." They're about the actual shooting mechanics being not so great.
    ...really? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who didn't like the plot being a lot of meaningless wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey nonsense dressed up as deep wisdom, the treating of Columbia as Very Serious Business when none of it makes an iota of sense, the treatment of prejudice and bigotry reduced to RACE WAR, RAAAAAAAH, the Big Twist being revealed so blatantly ahead of time it'd shame Michael Bay and then wheeled out as if no-one would have got it...

    Seriously, sarcasm aside, I read any number of articles complaining about this stuff, so it plainly wasn't just me. And the actual "shooting mechanics" were just about the least problematic thing on offer. I mean, the combat was mediocre at best - you can pretty much stick with one weapon and one power throughout the entire game, and tears were completely superfluous, I never used a single one except maybe (literally) once or twice out of curiosity. But the process of pointing a gun at someone and going "bang" was fine.

    As a game, though, it was crap. Not bottom-of-the-barrel crap, sure, but crap nonetheless. I thought the first game was over-rated but it was still basically good - 2 was far better, but 1 was worth playing nonetheless. Infinite was a failure.
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  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Honestly can't remember much of the race relations stuff in Wheelie Binfinite (not sure if i even finished it honestly) but I do remember the quantum mechanics nonsense, when it meant to say space magic. I'm fine with space magic. I'm not fine with incorrectly invoking established real-world physics to justify a flimsy plot device. That's just one of the reasons why I hate the later Star Treks (the other main reason being that they all sucked arse through a crazy straw). Also, the fact that once you invoke alternate universes, you either make the plot infinitely more complicated or make it completely impossible to care about anything that happens in it.

  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    ...really?
    Really. As I said, I could see how some people could spin Infinite as "smugness," as you just did, but I personally don't remotely buy it. You didn't like the plot, OK, I get it.

    What you said about the combat being "mediocre at best" is what I meant by the shooting mechanics. If you're being overly literal, you can reduce that to "hey the guns shoot," but "shooting mechanics" is a popular shorthand catch-all phrase for how a game plays as a first person shooter (hence the derivation). Which includes things like weapon variety, balance between the weaponry, your health level, enemy health levels, the presence of mechanics like cover, etc.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    Honestly can't remember much of the race relations stuff in Wheelie Binfinite (not sure if i even finished it honestly) but I do remember the quantum mechanics nonsense, when it meant to say space magic. I'm fine with space magic. I'm not fine with incorrectly invoking established real-world physics to justify a flimsy plot device. That's just one of the reasons why I hate the later Star Treks (the other main reason being that they all sucked arse through a crazy straw). Also, the fact that once you invoke alternate universes, you either make the plot infinitely more complicated or make it completely impossible to care about anything that happens in it.
    Nobody liked the Irish or the Blacks, they lived in slums, they had a revolt, their leader was also a shithead like all leaders in the game.

    There was no real nuance to it. It did a "shock" part at the start to introduce it, then they hung a few "no blacks/no irish" signs around and then you visit them in the ghettos and that's that.

    It was the B plot to the science shit which was out of a B movie story.
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  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    Honestly can't remember much of the race relations stuff in Wheelie Binfinite (not sure if i even finished it honestly)
    The game does hit you over the head with racism early on. At the start of the game you're kind of aimlessly wandering around Columbia until you're abruptly invited to throw a baseball at a caged black couple. It's nasty and clumsy. However, it's a theme that gradually fades into the background, so if you've forgotten about the "public stoning" scene, I can see how you might have forgotten it.

    I know what you mean about Bad Science, but honestly that's something I don't remember myself. I recall the alternate universes of course, but I don't recall the details of what Made Up Science was used to justify them, so I assume it wasn't too bad.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Nobody liked the Irish or the Blacks, they lived in slums, they had a revolt, their leader was also a shithead like all leaders in the game.
    The DLC explained she was only pretending to be a shit head so Elizabeth could fulfill her destiny as alternative reality Dad drowner, is that a spoiler, I don't care.
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  18. #18
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    I thought Bioshock and Binfinite were great. Sure, they both had problems, plot holes, not particularly exciting combat making up a lot of them. But there was also some absolute magic. I will always associate Binfinite with the seaside fairground scene, all wooden cutout figures and candyfloss that tastes like industrial byproducts and jangling tunes but when you are there, engrossed in the puppet hitting the other puppet with a big stick, it becomes something really special.

    Hand waving away the revolutionaries as just as bad as everyone else was bullshit though.


    Currently playing Dark Souls 3 again after a bit of a break. Talking of magic moments, just beat the Dancer. Amazing.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wenz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    Really. As I said, I could see how some people could spin Infinite as "smugness," as you just did, but I personally don't remotely buy it. You didn't like the plot, OK, I get it.

    What you said about the combat being "mediocre at best" is what I meant by the shooting mechanics. If you're being overly literal, you can reduce that to "hey the guns shoot," but "shooting mechanics" is a popular shorthand catch-all phrase for how a game plays as a first person shooter (hence the derivation). Which includes things like weapon variety, balance between the weaponry, your health level, enemy health levels, the presence of mechanics like cover, etc.
    You can find the core mechanics from the actions you perform. WASD+ action, lmb to shoot and that's it. Strictly speaking of the combat system, I haven't played binfinite, but it's the same as cod (shoot from cover being the least risky option, followed by shooting with no ironsight, shooting with ironsight, melee, granade or any projectile thing as most risky move). Then there are lesser tiers of mechanics to manage but Idk if binfinite has invetories/customization or whatever 'cuz I don't care. Maybe I'll watch a vid of the 1999 thing.
    This is perfectly working stuff so it's not mediocre but rather it sounds broken from gimmicks which trivialize things and mark the game with inconsequences. Maybe the variety in enemies is not big enough because that tends to be the case with this kind of games so you don't have to make hard decisions and a gun becomes dominant. I have no problem with superpowers being very situational because the game is supposed to rely on guns more than cheats but situational guns would be great and actually more interesting, then again bio2 looks alright and would be fun to co op...if it has co op to begin with.

  20. #20
    Network Hub Det. Bullock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    Hand waving away the revolutionaries as just as bad as everyone else was bullshit though.
    I never played it and I tried to avoid spoilers but I remember that even AngryJoe lamented this in his review.

    I bet some focus test was made of a KKK fraternity and they forced that thing to make them feel better, a bit how in my home country they like to downplay SalÚ's republic crimes (for those who don't know, they are the guys that wanted to stay with the Nazis after the king of Italy decided to surrender to the Allies) by pointing a finger at the odd partisan that used the war to shoot the rich neighbour.
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