By Alec Meer on March 5th, 2009 at 11:14 am.
Meer’s Journal, March 5 2009.
On Thursday morning, a literary classic died on my PC screen. Somebody threw its ideas out of a window, and when it hit the internet its head was driven up into its stomach.
Nobody cares.
Nobody cares but me. And thousands of other comic book geeks.
Are they right? Is it futile?
Soon there will be more of this. Millions of ideas will burn. Millions of proud creations will perish in sickness, misery and money-grabbing idiocy.
Why does one lazy videogame adaptation matter against so many?
Because there is good and there is lousy, and lousy must be punished. Even in the face of mildly annoying the game’s developers and publishers I shall not compromise in this.
500-odd megabytes of Watchmen demo is now available for free from the magic internet. Previously, we’ve been a liiiiiiiiitle bit down on the idea of making a flashy brawler out of Alan Moore’s superhero-deconstructing landmark comic, but perhaps we were wrong.
It seems this pays expert tribute to the themes of the book after all. It contains dialogue easily the equal of Moore’s greatest lines: truly, “eat shit and die” and “fuck-face” are quotes for the ages. Meanwhile, it cleverly references the symmetrical, mirrored nature of so many of Watchmen’s panels by smartly repeating the exact same environments and enemies again and again. And Rorscharch and Nite-Owl magically collecting new fighting abilities as they lurch through a thug-infested prison is a clear tip of the hat to the heroes’ slow rediscovery of their confidence and moral outrage throughout the graphic novel.
This, surely, is the first videogame that could rightly be called a masterpiece.
Alternatively it’s a brain-dead, charmless, repetitive, button-bashing, incoherent slice of overwhelming cynicism that we’d have thought poorly of in 1985. Quite pretty, though.
PS – according to my screenshotting program, Watchmen’s engine is called ‘Kapow.’
05/03/2009 at 11:19 Theoban says:
Oh man I’m going to buy this twice just to support the developer.
05/03/2009 at 11:19 Dizet Sma says:
Newsvendor: “I see the world didn’t end yesterday.”
Kovacs: “Are you sure?”
05/03/2009 at 11:30 Eschatos says:
At least the movie isn’t as bad.
05/03/2009 at 11:34 Silent Witless says:
But they’re superheroes!! Fighting ker-splat ker-pow is what they do, right?
Right???
Heresy of the First Order. I’ll get my pitchfork.
05/03/2009 at 11:34 Ian says:
The accumulated filth of all their raped licenses and murdered ideas will foam up about their waists and all the abominable movie tie-ins will look up and shout “Play us!”… and I’ll look down and whisper “No.”
05/03/2009 at 11:39 matte_k says:
@Ian: Seconded.
05/03/2009 at 11:39 DMcCool says:
@ Ian
Fantastic. I think I can handle this game existin as long as people keep making jokes this good about it.
05/03/2009 at 11:39 Xercies says:
Sometimes i truly hate the modern gaming business owned by stupid companies like this. You and I know they don’t care about game they are just goign to cash into people who are stupid to play his game because it got released along with the movie.
The problem is these kind of games do get a bit of sales and money which means they will only continue on with thier banging people’s head in a wall.
Rorchsarch should beat all these people up that buy the game.
05/03/2009 at 11:39 Leman says:
I bet Alan Moore is currently spinning in his luxury, well whatever Alan Moore sleeps in, I doubt its a bed.
Has anything ever been converted from his original work and not come out terrible?
05/03/2009 at 11:40 Sporknight says:
Did anyone else feel physically ill reading the screenshot from Rorscharch’s “journal”?
05/03/2009 at 11:43 Markoff Chaney says:
So good you won’t even leave us a link to the demo! :)
Hmmm. File Planet or Steam. Such a difficult choice. One I get the pleasure of waiting in line for over half an hour for slow speeds. On the other hand, it’s blazing fast with no queue. Whichever will I choose?
I want to say this game sucks, but I think the Tachyons are messing with me since I haven’t played it yet. On a positive note, when’s the last time we had an old school beat ‘em up on our PC? Hell, the reason I broke down and finally got a PS2 was God Hand, universally despised and 110% awesome. Maybe this will rock and be mindless joy. How bad can it be doing finishing moves with Rorschach while a slim NiteOwl pummels baddies while you both ramp up with ever increasing powers unlocked by virtue of moving through a predetermined course? (Is that even a real sentence? I understand the words, but it just doesn’t seem to make sense…)
05/03/2009 at 11:46 Dreamhacker says:
Heh, and here I thought comics were for kids! I must have been selling them short, because surely all kids would be insulted by this videogame.
05/03/2009 at 11:47 Rob says:
@ Leman. No, unless you disregard Johnny Depp’s ludicrous foppery and Heather Graham’s painful strike-a-light accent in From Hell and just concentrate on Ian Holm being rather creepy.
Can’t wait for the Nu-Metal Update of Halo Jones.
05/03/2009 at 11:54 Mark Stephenson says:
Spoilers in a Downfall/Watchmen mashup which made me smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIhHema5PNg
05/03/2009 at 11:54 DMJ says:
Coming next week, War and Peace: The RTS.
05/03/2009 at 11:54 Optimaximal says:
The funny thing is, WBIE are telling reviewers to hold off reviewing this episode before the second is out… Mebbe it features a more rounded experience. Mebbe they’re just chasing sales, hoping to cash-in before the ill-will devalues their efforts into mediocrity.
Funnily enough, nobody is listening and posting them anyway. I’m still waiting on my product key… Due sometime today apparently :(
05/03/2009 at 11:56 Tei says:
He was not Rorschach’s back then, he was Kovacs playing like Rorschach.
Also, Is this the version of the movie of the book where everybody has mexican hats?
05/03/2009 at 11:56 Silent Witless says:
So until they bless Phonogram with a Guitar Hero-esque tribute, Make Mine Marvel.
05/03/2009 at 11:59 ChaosSmurf says:
LOOKS SUSPICIOUSLY LIKE SOME NEW GAMES JOURNALISM THERE ALEC.
I’m pretty sure I’m not even going to bother. I don’t really want this to be my first Watchmen experience.
05/03/2009 at 12:01 Tei says:
@Mark Stephenson: On the other hand, on the hollywood version of the bible, theres a happy end. Jesus don’t die, but create a army and invade and conquest Roma. And theres a cute side love history with Magdalena. And a hot sex scene.
I like the hollywood version of the bible more than the other.
05/03/2009 at 12:03 Helm says:
When I saw the first image after the jump I must admit it was very difficult to maintain calm. I said “fucking morons” under my breath (well, the Greek equivalent) and scrolled. Scrolled. Scrolled all the way down to the bottom of the page. And I had done so well otherwise trying to ignore the existence of the movie/videogame tie-in. Must purge negative emotions!
05/03/2009 at 12:15 phuzz says:
For some reason I thought there was half a chance that this game would be ok and wouldn’t try and face rape me through the eyes.
I was wrong, sorry internet :(
05/03/2009 at 12:17 Brother None says:
Oh really, moral indignation at insufficiently respectful treatment of a license? We sure see a lot of that, if somewhat non-even-handedly spread amongst the gaming industry’s many license maltreatments.
Movie tie-ins? They’re just an easy target. No big surprise there. As, no surprise there, it’s a bad game but also a bad take at the franchise. That is really, really just an easy target. I’d be more impressed if journos apply the same adaptation standards to games that are good.
05/03/2009 at 12:23 Jazmeister says:
Imagine Dante’s Inferno.
‘I came then to a tall, forbidding arch. Virgil read it aloud, as if to further warn me:
“Abandon hope, all ye who forget to quicksave.”
It sent a chill down my spine, all the way to the f5 key.’
05/03/2009 at 12:26 Alec Meer says:
You sure do like complaining, Bro 0.
05/03/2009 at 12:27 phil says:
People, we’re missing the important point that the fourth quarter numbers were not in line with profit forecasters and a soulless, knuckle-dragging bucket of vomit product is marginally more cost-effective than making something of worth, once we realise that I’m sure we’ll all feel a lot better.
05/03/2009 at 12:35 Meat Circus says:
Anyone who buys this should be ashamed of themselves.
And not just slightly ashamed. The kind of shame that sickens one to the very core.
05/03/2009 at 12:41 Kelduum Revaan says:
Well, I played the demo on the 360 last night (heresy!) and actually kind of liked it (double heresy!).
And yes, I’ve read the Graphic Novel, but only relatively recently, and I’m disappointed there is not an accurate ending in the movie.
And yes, I know the game is also wrong, Kovacs was still himself back then, before he properly lost it and went mental.
Repeated environments, inaccuracies so on put aside, I kind of enjoyed throwing convicts into each other and over the balconies, as well as generally injuring bad guys in a traditional Double Dragon/Final Fight kind of way.
Its certainly not a game of the year, but its not as bad as it could have been – Watchman Electric Cart Racing anyone? – and maybe it will help get some people to read the original graphic novel…
05/03/2009 at 12:42 Freelancepolice says:
woah hold on there Markoff Chaney
God hand isn’t universally despised – 1 particular ign review! It’s got quite the following
05/03/2009 at 12:51 Gap Gen says:
Consolevania also rated God Hand quite highly.
05/03/2009 at 12:56 Kieron Gillen says:
God Hand is amazing. I wrote a big piece about it for the Escapist, I think.
And Quinns RPS uses God Hand as a model for life, I suspect.
KG
05/03/2009 at 12:56 Percyprune says:
Alan Moore will make nothing off this farrago. He has famously taken his name off the credits and refused all moneys (just as he did with the V For Vendetta movie) and handed all income off to the artist (in this case Dave Gibbons). Bravo! A man of integrity. Top bloke, too!
05/03/2009 at 12:58 Percyprune says:
Sorry, I meant Moore has taken his name off the credits of the movie. I have no idea if he’s credited in the game.
05/03/2009 at 13:00 Theoban says:
@Meat Circus – I’m going to buy you a copy now. No, three copies.
05/03/2009 at 13:00 Kieron Gillen says:
He almost certainly won’t be credited in the game, for the reasons you describe.
KG
05/03/2009 at 13:00 Ginger Yellow says:
The funny thing is that, standing on its own, the Rorschach panel would make an excellent Penny Arcade-style satire of how the licensed games industry destroys everything it touches.
05/03/2009 at 13:01 phil says:
@Percyprune
I believe the game is a secondary marketing tie-in with the movie, rather than the book – hence he still gets nothing – though to be fair, with the game in particular – he probably prefers it that way.
05/03/2009 at 13:01 Ginger Yellow says:
To further that thought, if WBIE had made the game into a meta-fiction about licensed games (a bit like the latest Simpsons game, I suppose), it would have been very Watchmen. As it is, not so much.
05/03/2009 at 13:17 phil says:
Some reviews have been relatively positive; like
http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3173076 – though the reviewer did feel obligated to state “I am not angry this game exists” which could act as a disclaimer.
05/03/2009 at 13:33 Markoff Chaney says:
Apologies. I know a lot of us who actually played the game loved it, so universally was the incorrect form of hyperbole to use in that instance, but I know quite a few reviewers (ARS and IGN in particular) that utterly despised God Hand. All that made me do is never trust those idiots’ reviews again. HA HA! (/taunt)
And now to torpedo any form of credibility I may anonymously have…
It wasn’t half bad, as a 3-D Brawler.
I still can’t wrap my head around the juxtaposition of the source material, but I had fun. I gazed upon my wife’s stunned expression and listened to her comments when she saw me fire it up before she walked out asking me “They made a Watchmen game that is a prequel? Isn’t anything sacred? Is this canon?”. I love that Woman…
Anyway.
- Repetitive enemies and weapons and textures and sounds and attacks? Check
- Corridors of paths with little thought involved in “puzzles” and only one way to progress? Check (No blinking arrow or time count down though)
- Context sensitive button presses with a subtly deeper experience and combo system than originally thought? Check
- Cheesy dialogue? Check
- Difficultish implementation of 3rd person camera with multiple enemies beating on you? Check
It’s mostly all there. Regenerating health instead of random whole turkeys in prison garbage cans disappointed me, though. It’s all vapid and trite and repetitively repetitious with a lot of repetition. And yet I was almost late for work, seeing if I could get that next spinning token or see how I could break this guy’s leg or that guy’s face after throwing his buddy into 4 other people and stunning this guy with a combo. It was oddly enjoyable and, as I said, we have a Beat em Up on the PC at least. 360 controller worked flawlessly as well.
I’m really confused on a couple of points though. Being pre-1975, he should have sounded more like Kovacs, as Rorschach wouldn’t open his eyes for another 3 years and thusly shouldn’t have a voice either. His manner of diction at the only meeting of the Crimebusters furthers the stability of this supposition. His abuse of those I fought against also didn’t fit my idea of molly coddling.
Not sure if I’ll buy it (that 20 dollars would be better served buying my 6th copy of Watchmen and giving it away really) but I do want to get a friend and hook another controller up and see how it does Co-Op. It was worth the twenty something Peggles worth of bandwidth, if nothing other than to let you prove to yourself it actually does exist.
05/03/2009 at 13:41 groovychainsaw says:
Another original approach, like a pulp sci-fi story reflecting the themes of the book (in a ‘tales of the black freighter’ style) would have been more in keeping with Alan Moore’s ideas.
Or a game reflecting how insignificant people become when you are doc manhattan. Maybe wander round the world, 200 feet tall, killing people with a wave of your hand, seeing a kill counter go up to 6 billion, but never getting a reward or power up for it, no points, no score, but when you stop killing for a moment, your character flies to mars and the game ends, dissociated from the destruction by the insignificance of it all… ;-)
05/03/2009 at 13:47 Moriarty70 says:
I think the Penny-Arcade one would end with comic Rorschach setting digital Rorschach on fire.
05/03/2009 at 13:48 cyrenic says:
I couldn’t tell at first if that screenshot from Rorscharch’s journal was a photoshop joke or not.
05/03/2009 at 13:51 Pags says:
The one good thing we can take from this game is that it has at least made for some entertaining comment threads on RPS.
05/03/2009 at 13:57 Jonas says:
I can’t believe this game is made by a Danish studio. What are you thinking, Deadline? WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!?
05/03/2009 at 14:04 Markoff Chaney says:
I’m still trying to remember verbatim what one of the first thugs said to me as he saw me. Something about fucking me up while fucking up my real face you fuck or something. I think it was pulled from a Tennyson poem that Alan Moore adapted, IIRC.
The “It’s as black down there as Moloch’s heart” line made me chuckle too. It was more of a mirthless self-deprecating “Yes, they really can rape your joyous dreams and fantasies and long standing loves in front of you while you cry (and hope it’s not your turn next), Virginia” kind of way instead of a joyful chuckle though.
05/03/2009 at 14:09 Okami says:
Come on, it’s just a comic…
*ducks*
05/03/2009 at 14:21 Nero says:
Yeah it was kinda pretty (which just for that will probably get a few sales) but other than that it was pretty crap. Read the comic again instead of playing this.
05/03/2009 at 14:24 Haml3t says:
@groovychainsaw: I found your Dr. Manhattan suggestion to be really, really compelling. I really think someone should make a You Have to Burn the Rope-esque game out of it–less of a game than a quasi-philosophical point, a message conveyed through a game instead of an essay or book or film. Kudos, sir, kudos. You’ve got me thinking.
And I’m going to download the demo, just to try it. I like punching things and breaking their faces.
05/03/2009 at 14:46 Jahkaivah says:
@groovychainsaw
Cool idea, I find that when you activate god-mode in any game you play, you often gain an insight on how Dr Manhattan must feel.
05/03/2009 at 14:53 Pags says:
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/485797
05/03/2009 at 14:56 Nick says:
@Pags – that was brilliant.
05/03/2009 at 15:03 Craymen Edge says:
I do love it so when people get precious over someone else’s creative output. :P
I applaud them for not trying to squeeze the actual storyline of the Watchmen into the game style they’d chosen to make. Instead they chose a story that wasn’t explored in the book – Night Owl and Rorschach taking down the underboss. That said, I don’t really care to try the demo for the reasons already mentioned – it looks like a repetetive movie tie in.
05/03/2009 at 15:05 Jockie says:
Seconded, that was genius.
05/03/2009 at 15:07 Haml3t says:
I’m at school so I’m afraid I can’t watch Pags’s link, but I look forward to doing so later. I still want the Dr. Manhattan game.
05/03/2009 at 15:23 Tei says:
@Okami: “Come on, it’s just a comic…”
A dead body as the same number of particles a alive body.
05/03/2009 at 15:24 Pags says:
In future, I’m just going to link to other people being funny rather than attempting it myself.
05/03/2009 at 15:42 sana says:
@DMJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_and_Peace:_1796-1815
05/03/2009 at 15:47 Lord Skwizzal says:
Would I be correct in assuming that if I said I liked this, I’d be hunted down and shot?
05/03/2009 at 15:53 Ian says:
Meat Circus is on his way to your location as we speak.
05/03/2009 at 16:03 Markoff Chaney says:
Only if you buy it though. Then he shoots shame at you until you can be shamed no longer. Then he shoots more just in case.
I can’t wait to get home and see Pags’ link. Silly proxies!
05/03/2009 at 16:29 Lord Skwizzal says:
Meh
I’ll probably ask my buccaneer friends to let me aboard their bounty vessel and offload it slowly.
If you know what I mean.
05/03/2009 at 16:31 AndrewC says:
I’m not sure Meat Circus would like his ammunition described as ‘shame’.
05/03/2009 at 16:44 Matthew Craig says:
That cartoon is pure brilliance.
But why did it have to END?
Awww…
//\Oo/\\
05/03/2009 at 16:51 groovychainsaw says:
Had a follow on thought, that you also ‘win’ and go to mars if you don’t kill anyone and stand still, completely bored, thereby making the choice to do any destruction even more meaningless. If only i could program, eh?
05/03/2009 at 16:53 Markoff Chaney says:
It’s some kind of core seeking, self-impacting, sickening +5, infinite ammo type of shame that he holds in reserve for those whom purchase this game. He found it in a crate he smashed open. Or maybe it was a box – I couldn’t really tell since the resolution was wonky due to transcoding.
05/03/2009 at 16:55 karthik says:
The Rohrshach’s Journal clipping can’t be from the game. Oh, god, no.
05/03/2009 at 17:15 Alex says:
Having read that journal screenshoot, I will shortly be ascending the nearest clocktower to begin shooting at passersby.
05/03/2009 at 17:35 Chaz says:
So the Watchmen gets turned into a lame 3D beatem up. *sigh* It’s a sign of the times. In the 80′s of course Ocean Software would have made it into a 2D platformer.
05/03/2009 at 17:36 Tei says:
@An_Adult “It’s a fucking comic..;.Get over it and grow up!!!”
Non non, non.. you get it all wrong. Is a history that use a comic to be written. We call that “Graphic Novels”, and watchmen is to the graphic novel genre what Ulises is to poetry. You don’t use Comics Sans with Rorschach, period. PERIOD.
05/03/2009 at 18:21 apnea says:
Good going, Alec. You found the courage to go past your Reviewer’s Aversion to “mildly annoying developers and publishers” and became all critical on us.
Now if only the rest of the Hivemind would follow your lead…
(j/king – don’t want you guys to lose your insider status ;))
05/03/2009 at 18:24 Jockie says:
I gave the demo a go out of curiosity, the journal thing isn’t from the game. The writing all seems a bit obvious drawing lightly from the comic (mentions of Woodward and Bernstein), but quite shallow.
The gameplay was super repetitive, run round here, kill 5 blokes, pull switch, kill 5 blokes, interspersed with aforementioned lousy dialogue.
That said, the combat itself isn’t -that- bad and it looks pretty, the game might be worth playing if you fancy a streets of rage-esque beat em up. But of course its a pretty terrible use of the watchmen license.
05/03/2009 at 18:25 Heliocentric says:
My prefix-girlfriend just got my watchmen as a gift. I’ve not read it yet. I can only promise you i’ll read it before i try this demo. I wonder if my fanboy rage will be like some of you guys given the pace of my transition. But know this she got it after seeing the game on steam and asking what it was about.
The game brought me into this thus.
05/03/2009 at 18:50 Cedge says:
Waa, boo hoo hoo.
Game is fun.
05/03/2009 at 18:56 Diogo Ribeiro says:
While I very much like the Watchmen graphic novel, I can’t help smirking at how AIMs arbitrarily decide which franchise adaption is bad and in need of some raping. Anyone complaining about Fallout 3 would have been hamstrung, but I guess Watchmen is more precious to them.
05/03/2009 at 19:10 Thirith says:
Except, of course, lots of people complained about Fallout 3, not only the NMA crowd. So what exactly is the point you’re making?
05/03/2009 at 20:41 J-Man says:
Uh.. after reading that Rorschach journal picture I feel like vomiting.
05/03/2009 at 20:43 Funky Badger says:
I’m sure there was a kerfuffle over Fallout 3, sure of it…
05/03/2009 at 21:45 Diogo Ribeiro says:
Except, of course, nearly all complaining about Fallout 3 was dismissed on account of it being perpetrated by pubescent rabble with a weird sense of entitlement. But with Watchment, it’s a sin.
05/03/2009 at 21:49 Nick says:
Nah, just the borderline fanatical drivel that only a select few peddled was dismissed, sadly giving a bad name to places that didn’t deserve it. You aren’t doing anything but perpetuating that misconception right now though.
05/03/2009 at 21:54 JKjoker says:
i really don’t get movie tie-ins, they could just make a nice looking pseudo 3d Final Fight(or other simple but fun game) clone with the characters, going for short but fun and sell it for 20-30 bucks without that much investment (even less if they license an engine) and with a very fast development cycle ending up with a forgettable put passable game.
But nooooooo, they need to make an awful full 3D game with a new engine that never finishes development and releases in alpha stage usually trying hated or unproven gameplay elements end in a boring and extremely annoying turd with a $60+ tag making the poor(or idiot) customer that gave your game a chance resentful against them for the rest of their lives
05/03/2009 at 21:56 Pags says:
@Diogo Ribeiro: the difference is that Fallout 3 was a semi-decent game which showed that Bethesda still had some imagination, even if it wasn’t exactly canon (although the idea of a Fallout canon is pretty preposterous anyway, as Fallout 2 wasn’t exactly faithful to the original Fallout either).
Whereas this game is a rather insipid Streets of Rage copycat.
05/03/2009 at 22:04 Homunculus says:
Has Saturday Morning Watchmen been linked in a relevant thread yet? I feel it should.
05/03/2009 at 22:06 Diogo Ribeiro says:
@Pags: True, but if you’ll note, I’m only addressing the tolerance or absence for the criticism itself. Yes, Fallout 3 is semi-decent and this Watchmen game is – at this point – feeling like yet another stillborn cash-in. But I wonder how much of this has a link to the object of criticism rather than the quality of the game.
05/03/2009 at 22:22 JKjoker says:
@Pags : wtf man, you cannot compare the differences between Fallout 1 and 2 and the ones between Fallout 1 and 3, F3 is a completely different game without personality that sucked enough juice out of the raped fallout franchise to feel fresh to the unwashed ignorant masses who never tasted the real thing, its like giving diet ice-cream to somebody that never tasted one, they’ll tell your its awesome because they don’t know better
05/03/2009 at 22:27 subcommander says:
Ugh
05/03/2009 at 22:32 Pags says:
@Homunculus: I beat you to it!
@Diogo: Fair point, people are probably more ready to dismiss this game than they would have been with Fallout 3.
@JKjoker: lol.
05/03/2009 at 22:35 Down Rodeo says:
God Hand, awesome. The Let’s Play of it is awesome.
05/03/2009 at 22:36 Azazel says:
So… less blood from the shoulder of Pallas and more blood from a stone. Hur hur.
Hmmm, that doesn’t really work :/
05/03/2009 at 22:37 Down Rodeo says:
Argh, that’s a terrible comment. My apologies. What I’m trying to say is the Let’s Play of God Hand not only made me want to buy the game but also made me want to buy a PS2 to play it on…
05/03/2009 at 23:02 Nimdok says:
I disliked the comic for various and sundry reasons which I won’t go into but generally involve my distaste for Moore and his works. The movie I might see just to see if it improved on the comic or stayed about the same.
Just finished the demo and, you know, I liked it; brawlers have always been my preferred console and arcade experience, and this is a nice, simple brawler with a bit of variety: unlimited specials attached to a charged bar, cinematic disarms NOT attached to quick-time events, although I kinda wished the dialogue was different depending on which character you played as, I wish the demo had controller support, and the fact that I never liked Rorschach’s speech patterns was made worse by hearing it spoken aloud (I found myself remarking on how many times he left out words and how unnatural it sounds). For twenty bucks, I’ll buy it.
Bitter and jaded gamers make for the best (worst?) critics, especially when the game involves a “beloved” franchise. If it weren’t “Watchmen” I’m sure there would be more positive comments.
05/03/2009 at 23:19 apnea says:
Nimdok is something else.
Distaste for Moore (and some of his new-agey stuff), I share. But dislike for Watchmen?
No reasons too sundry/various for my ears. Do tell.
(Okay plotting is not always up to par, but come on – dislike?)
05/03/2009 at 23:51 DBeaver says:
I growned out loud seeing the Rorschach’s Journal screenshot
05/03/2009 at 23:59 Nimdok says:
Moore’s too heavy handed, too into himself to realize he’s not a very good writer of dialogue OR plot, let alone decent characterization. Watchmen was too much an obvious conglomeration of every comic he’s ever read, or written crapped out onto paper and called a tour-de-force. It wasn’t a tribute to the comics of yesteryear, it wasn’t even a send-off, just a blatant grave robbing.
06/03/2009 at 00:03 Kieron Gillen says:
Nimdok: Let’s go for the obvious – who do you think is better?
KG
06/03/2009 at 00:27 Nimdok says:
KG: Thaaaan? Better than Moore?
That’s a trap; no matter what I say there could be a legitimate argument which would, more than likely, render my point(s) moot. Besides that, by making the ‘better than’ argument I’m showing myself as being judgemental as opposed to opinionated; I will say that I LIKE writers like Warren Ellis, Dave Sims, Marv Wolfman, G. Willow Wilson, Rob Schrab, Grant Morrison, Bob Layton, Mark Schultz, Eastman AND Laird, Enki Bilal, Alan Grant…
Put it this way: Moore falls low on the scale.
06/03/2009 at 00:28 Nimdok says:
Aww, crap; added an extra S onto Dave Sim’s name…
No edit button and no going back make Nimdok something something…
06/03/2009 at 01:06 The Ironic Review says:
Aaaaaaaaaaahhh…
06/03/2009 at 01:14 JKjoker says:
i thought Black Summer was a lot better than Watchmen, and im sure it would make a better doomed-to-suck-comic-based-movie (it has more BANGs!)
06/03/2009 at 01:52 Mister Hands says:
Nimdok: “If it weren’t “Watchmen” I’m sure there would be more positive comments.”
Well, yeah. Isn’t putting the wrong game to the wrong license generally a valid point of criticism? I thought the gameplay was fairly solid, even fun for the duration of the demo, just not the gameplay a Watchmen game needs or deserves.
06/03/2009 at 01:55 Heliocentric says:
just read the a third of the book. I’m gonna have to read this a few times to pick it all up in context.
06/03/2009 at 02:29 Nimdok says:
Mr. Hands: There’s something to be said for trying new things with old ideas, or even punching convention in the face, to keep with this current sort-of analogy.
As for the “deserves” thing, as you can tell I think Watchmen DESERVES to have never been published, so there goes that line of logic. The only type of game that would work perfectly with the storyline and story style of Watchmen would be either the indie-stylized Dr. Manhattan idea that’s already been brought up or a, dare I mention it, Dreamfall-style adventure game. But seeing as how those are unlikely at best to ever come into existence, this is what you’ve got. Might as well enjoy it.
06/03/2009 at 03:42 Adventurous Putty says:
I’m gonna have to disagree about Watchmen’s quality, though, Nimdock — part of the reason you might not be too keen on the characterization is that it’s various superhero archetypes or stereotypes (such as the lone avenger, the god-man, etc) taken out of their Golden Age context and placed in the context of a setting that Moore perceives to reflect the “real” world. In doing so, he both examines what would motivate people to go to the extreme of becoming a caped crusader and shows the futility of such an approach to heroism (particularly through the ending), instead glorifying the power of humanity in itself (see Dr. Manhattan’s soliloquy).
So I’m not really sure what you’re getting at, in terms of criticism. To me, the book accomplishes its goals rather excellently because it’s not a pastiche of or tribute to the Golden Age of comics but, rather, a Deconstruction of them.
06/03/2009 at 03:43 Adventurous Putty says:
“glorify” there should be “vindicate”, methinks. Damn edit button.
06/03/2009 at 04:59 Nimdok says:
Putty, your argument is sound, and you did miss my point which is Moore doesn’t have the talent to pull it off, a statement proven by the fact that no two people can agree, at least from what I’ve seen, on what Moore was trying to convey. Some claim it was a send-off of the Golden Age, others are on your page, while still others believe he was simply commiting wanton theft and calling it a book.
It doesn’t matter what he was trying to say, the crux of my argument was that he’s not a good enough writer to pull it off.
06/03/2009 at 05:03 Cunningbeef says:
Oh god no, not my comic books. Is nothing sacred?
Seriously though, this is pretty pathetic. Grown men getting riled up about someone doing an injustice to their comics, damn. I can’t even think of any words to express just how pitiful this whole display is.
06/03/2009 at 05:57 SteveHatesYou says:
Poor, talentless Alan Moore. Perhaps someday he’ll write something that people will like.
06/03/2009 at 09:05 Nick says:
Yeah Cunningbeef.. and grown men playing videogames.. yeesh, kids toys!
06/03/2009 at 09:30 Silent Witless says:
@Cunningbeef
Sadly, your comment demonstrates that you have no conception of what Watchmen even is. Calling Watchmen “a comic” is akin to calling Hamlet “just a play” or the Mona Lisa “just a painting”. It is a literary work in a medium that greater than the sum of it’s prose and pictures parts. It’s true that not many comics can lay claim to this, but there are examples out there. Neil Gaiman’s ‘Sandman’ series springs to mind.
If you need some perspective on the situation, remind yourself that many people level the very same criticisms of childishness about playing console and PC games, yet here you are leaving comments on a website devoted to just that…
06/03/2009 at 09:39 Cunningbeef says:
The difference is I don’t try to justify it with these silly pretensions of artistry. I want you to take a step back and realise how fucking ridiculous you look comparing your comic book to the Mona Lisa.
Done? OK. I guess you’re the same guys that raged against Uwe Boll, huh?
06/03/2009 at 09:51 Kieron Gillen says:
Cunningbeef: I’d take Watchmen above the Mona Lisa. I’d take it above a good chunk of Shakespeare*. It *is* an accepted Modern Classic, and I’d take you panel by panel through it if you want to know how annoyingly clever it is. It’s not just us saying it. Real world big-brain thinkers have done it.
To get over your medium-prejudice, just imagine we were talking about a book. This is like mocking the 1984 game of the film where it’s a platform game with you trying to escape Room 101 or something. That’s what people’s knee jerk reaction is here.
Me? I just think the game’s a bit silly. C’est la vie.
KG
*Last Shakespeare I saw was Timmons of Athens. It was oddly heartwarming to see Shakespeare be shit.
06/03/2009 at 10:11 Ian says:
A grown man getting riled up because somebody slagged off an oil painting? How sad.
06/03/2009 at 10:24 Adventurous Putty says:
*high-fives Mr. Gillen*
06/03/2009 at 11:23 Markoff Chaney says:
Word. It really is that good of a work of art. It changed so much about the medium and how it is interpreted (and how seriously it can allow itself to be taken as well) that looking at it through eyes now, it’s difficult to realize just how much those 12 issues changed the nature of writing and illustrating stories via a “Comic Book” medium.
When anything that advances an entire art form as much as Watchmen did gets maligned, even in the slightest, expect those who feel a particular love toward the project (or whom were changed themselves by the experience) to want to protect what made the damned thing so good and special in the first place. When what appears to be maligning what is loved, or isn’t true to the spirit of the artwork (Would there be outcries of unhappiness around the world if a major motion picture was financed where a 120 minute XXX Hard Core re-imagining of the Mona Lisa with 150 Italian Soldiers or anything else absurdly deviant from the source?) there will be indignation from those to whom it matters.
Saying one work of art is inherently better than another… heh. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I know I’ve spent more time studying the intricacies and subtle nuances of Watchmen than the Mona Lisa. Does that make Watchmen a better work of art? To me, it just may…
I do dislike Uwe Boll as well, thank you very much. :)
06/03/2009 at 11:30 Silent Witless says:
*If the nice Mr Gillen has a hand free, I’d like to high-five it, too*
Oh, Cunningbeef, would that this were the proper forum for a whole “what constitutes art” debate – I’d love to spend some time discussing this with you. I don’t think there is anything silly or ridiculous in comparing one work of art, which can usually be described in terms of talent + inspiration + execution (with maybe a dash of luck thrown in), with this one. The team of moore and gibbons have, to many, achieved just as much as Da Vinci did with the Mona Lisa. Personally I feel I have a good perspective on the game – my earlier comment about pitchforks was a much mockery of the AIMs as it was directed towards the game. It is ONLY a game.
And by god, we were 100% right to criticise Uwe Boll. His films aren’t just crimes against the source material but crimes against the medium of film itself!
06/03/2009 at 14:34 Okami says:
@Silent Witless: re: Uwe Boll
Uwe Boll makes crappy movies. But then again, they’re based of crappy games. Come on! Far Cry? Dungeon Siege? House of the Dead?!?!? BLOOD RAYNE!?!?!?!
How can you commit crimes against these games?
Slightly more on topic: I allways preferred V to Watchmen and think that Moore’s an idiot. He made a few really good comics, but reading interviews with him… that guy’s a pure nut job.
As for the cultural significance.. Hmm… If I’d want to persuade people of the validity of comics as an art form, I’d give them Maus or Persepolis, not Watchmen.
06/03/2009 at 15:46 Azazel says:
I’d give them Watchmen as well.
Providing that I get it back within a reasonable timeframe.
06/03/2009 at 18:38 Dick Dastardley says:
@Okami
Heh ,ok, maybe Uwe Boll didn’t have the BEST material to work from, but I reserve the right to call out his habit of making shitty movies.
Maus. God, I wish I’d remembered that one in my little rant above. A friend bought it for me for xmas and I remember thinking “What is this crap he’s got me with mice in it?”…until I read it and kept being moved to tears, so much that it took me twice as long to read as any other graphic novel might have. Great suggestion, my friend. Wonderful book. Art, in the truest sense.
lol@Azazel – :D
08/03/2009 at 10:33 Psychopomp says:
@Cunningbeef
Maybe music is more your Forte.
How would you react if, while gushing about it, someone told you that Tommy/Led Zeppelin IV/Lateralus/Moving Pictures/Quadrophenia/The White Album/Nevermind/Birth of the Cool was “Just an album.”
What if, while gushing about him/her/it someone told you that Johnny Cash, Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, Bob Dylan, Tool, The Who, Rush, The Beatles, Nirvana, or Miles Davis were “Just musicians.”
From a purely objective point of view, yes they would be correct; however, there is more to art than the sum of it’s parts.
Nirvana’s “Nevermind” was not just a collection of power chords, drums, bass, a naked baby and mumbled vocals. Smells Like Teen Spirit was the death of Glam Rock; it was the moment that, after a decade of image obssessed, senseless bubblegum, music with a soul entered the spotlight. Sure, there was stuff out there that had better guitar work, and coherent vocals, but that doesn’t stop Nevermind from being a milestone is music history.
In a similar vein, yes, there were comics that had better artwork. There were comics that had better writing. Watchmen decided not to give a fuck, and be god damn amazing anyway.
It is not just a comic. It is the ONLY comic ever to win a Hugo Award, they even made a ONE-TIME category just so they could five it an awards.
If Watchmen had not come around, we may not have “The Walking Dead”, or anything by Warren Ellis gracing the shelves of local comic emporiums.
Watchmen is more than some words, on top of some drawings on a bunch of pieces of paper. Watchmen is the moment that comics as a whole grew up.
08/03/2009 at 12:12 Cunningbeef says:
Nirvana were utter shite.
08/03/2009 at 12:17 Cunningbeef says:
No edit: Although I can see where you’re coming from (and am definitely a big fan of music), you chose the worst possible example. In fact, comparing Nirvana to a comic book seems perfectly fitting. Both are something that anybody over 15 should be able to see as what it is: target-marketed childish tripe.
08/03/2009 at 12:27 AndrewC says:
Now might be a good time for cunningbeef to lay his cards on the table concerning what he does think is worthwhile culture.
08/03/2009 at 12:55 Mil says:
I just can’t see the point of comparing the “worth” of different works of art/entertainment. If you enjoy Watchmen more than the Mona Lisa, what do you gain by someone telling you that your taste is all wrong?
08/03/2009 at 13:04 Funky Badger says:
Hmm, seems I’ve arrived late for the aggravated contrariness Olympics, still here goes: The Mona Lisa was rubbish, too small and too boring – if yer wants proper art you can’t beat Turner’s Death on a Pale Horse.
Take that, Sum of Human Knowledge.
08/03/2009 at 13:16 PHeMoX says:
The Mona Lisa was a bit of a disappointment for me as well. Way small. Way ‘unfinished’ if you ask the experts. Way meh.
It’s still a work of genius, don’t get me wrong, but I feel it has become somewhat overrated over the years.
08/03/2009 at 15:04 Funky Badger says:
(I thought the porait of wotsit’s mother-in-law just outside the Mona Lisa gallery was far superior)
08/03/2009 at 15:10 Oak says:
Too small and boring. Honestly.
08/03/2009 at 20:06 Psychopomp says:
I chose Nevermind, instead of Lateralus or Birth of the Cool, because, like Watchmen, there is much more technically amazing works out there; and they both have come represent a major moment of change in their respective industries. To call them “Just an X,” is like calling World War 1 “Just a fight.”
That being said, as far as grunge goes, “In Utero” and Soundgarden’s “Superunknown” were a far better albums.
SPOOOOOOOONMAAAA-YAAAN