By John Walker on April 9th, 2009 at 12:59 pm.
Update: Now with new Nielsen figures on hardcore PC gaming below.
Nielsen’s latest gaming data has been published in the form of The State of the Video Gamer (pdf). Gathering PC gaming data from the “Nielsen MegaPanel”, more than 185,000 PCs were tracked by their system in the US. The findings include that “PC gaming is alive and well,” showing growth, and that females aged 25 and older make up the largest block of PC gamers, responsible for 54.6% of all game play minutes in December 2008.
Those taking part in the MegaPanel have a software meter installed on their machines. The report explains, “When a program is run on a PC, the program name as well as the person(s) using the PC is collected by the meter.” The tool is currently tracking over 1,777 individual PC game titles, and with over 185,000 participants, it’s likely the largest and most comprehensive survey of people’s PC gaming habits. Which makes their findings from December 2008 worth listening to.
“The single largest group of personal computer video game players is females ages 25 to 54, accounting for approximately 29 percent of total personal computer game players… When comparing the demographic segments percent composition to the amount of minutes the group contributed to the total minutes played, the demographic segment of females 55+ clearly stands out. The demographic break of females 55+ accounts for roughly 17 percent of the unique game players, but contribute almost 26 percent of total minutes of PC game play for December 2008.”
Of course, this isn’t the shock news that most the people playing Empire: Total War are grannies. The majority of the games being played that make up these numbers are card games, and most of these are those that come pre-installed with Windows. The report states, “Both males and females aged 25 to 54 tend to play the top title, Solitaire, five times a week for about 30 minutes a time.” Of these lonely card players, the vast majority are white, the men working in professional or management roles, while the women are mostly either homemakers or in administrative professions.
Looking at the Top Played Games list, there’s a couple of interesting appearances. Beyond the FreeCells and the Minesweepers, World of Warcraft scores a seventh place finish for both men and women aged 25-54. There’s 1,201,848 male WoW players of all ages in the US alone, and a total of 1.8m players across all sectors, playing an average of 744 minutes played per week per person. Also showing up on the male list in tenth place is Half-Life 2, with 170,968 unique players four years after its release.
Clearly if we wanted to be a successful, mainstream site, all we’d talk about would be World of Warcraft, Second Life and Chessmaster. It’s a good job we’re hell-bent on obscurity, but all three show impressive numbers. Nielsen’s stats show that Second Life is now in decline, with a significant halving of players since February 2008, while World of Warcraft just powers on like an insane bulldozer, always picking up any players it loses during the summer months by the time winter comes around. Meanwhile, PlayFirst’s Chessmaster Challenge is rocketing to almost WoW numbers with around 1.5 million players.
Well, no, clearly if we really wanted to be successful we’d only write about the card games that come pre-installed on your PC. Thinking about it, I play about as much FreeCell as I do anything else. It’s time for a rebrand guys.
Of course, what this data really demonstrates is quite how much money there is to be made in the casual games market. With the balance of players now tipping over to show the slight majority to be female, clearly PC gaming has discovered a deeply lucrative market that is far more age and gender inclusive than any before. There are numbers we’d still really like to see, showing the distribution of players across specialist/hardcore PC gaming, and we’ll nag Nielsen to see if we can find out more. And of course, it should be remembered that all the numbers above come from a purely US-based study, and as such there are cultural considerations to be taken.
Edit: Nielsen have got back to us with some numbers focused on specialist PC gaming.
First there’s a breakdown of the ages of World of Warcraft players:
Male 12-17: 11.37%
Male 18-24: 10.71%
Male 25-54 : 27.30%Female 12-17: 4.38%
Female 18-24: 3.73%
Female 25-54: 24.94%
I think this conclusively proves that women more dramatically lose their cool as they get older. This is why I’m not asked to interpret statistics for a living.
Secondly, Nielsen have given us some information on who is playing shooters, a representatively hardcore PC gaming genre. There’s a little bit of statspeak to penetrate, but it shows that once you remove the card games, hardcore PC gaming is dominated by male players, although with a significant female audience.
“If I look at a genre like ‘shooter’ as a more hardcore classification, looking at the players in the heavy tercile demographic breaks only (top 500 demo blocks we define by education/income, etc) males are just above 360,000 players and females are just over 75,000 players. The age break that dominates for most of these players is 25 to 54.”
In the chosen sample, it shows that roughly one in six FPS players are female.
09/04/2009 at 13:07 Gap Gen says:
Hang on, people actually play Second Life?
09/04/2009 at 13:11 Snuffy (the Evil) says:
Never heard of it. I’d suppose if they’d gotten it out more and more people heard of it there would be a clear male majority.
09/04/2009 at 13:12 TooNu says:
shite. Windows games like Solitare and minesweeper are on a PC so class as PC gaming but is it really? I say no, no it is not.
If the original DOOM came with windows like Solitaire and Minesweeper my opinion would be different.
[Good GRIEF, snip - Ed]
09/04/2009 at 13:17 Pidesco says:
Wait, what? I’m 28, and just mentioning games is about the perfect way to not get any from women in my age bracket. I’ve never actually met a single woman my age who plays games, PC or otherwise. It’s childish, apparently.
09/04/2009 at 13:17 schizoslayer says:
Play is probably not the best word for it. It’s more like a virtual representation of Facebook and I know people that effectively “Play” Facebook.
I “Play” Second Life for example. But what I actually do in it is build stuff. Most people use it to just chat and socialise and most of those people are indeed women.
Of course then there are the sex people.
09/04/2009 at 13:20 schizoslayer says:
@Pidesco The problem is you mention games that men like. You can pick up chicks if you talk about Minesweeper and Solitaire instead of Grand Theft Auto or Half Life.
Hell my mum is completely addicted to ZooKeeper.
Also Solitaire and Minesweeper are definitely games and definitely PC Games. I personally have never figured out how to play Hearts or Spider Solitaire though.
09/04/2009 at 13:27 Grogmonkey says:
Most of those people are obviously not using Vista, otherwise Mahjong Titans would be well up that ‘Top 10′ list.
Man, I love that game.
09/04/2009 at 13:27 danielcardigan says:
“Windows games like Solitare and minesweeper are on a PC so class as PC gaming but is it really? I say no, no it is not.”
I disagree. Solitaire and Minesweeper are absolutely PC games. Go too far down that road and Defense Grid suddenly isn’t a PC game.
What gets me is that I’m totally unfamiliar with Chessmaster Challenge or Great Escapes Solitaire.
09/04/2009 at 13:28 James G says:
If I understand the methodology correctly, Half-Life 2 will encompass pretty much all Source games, as all run as HL2.exe.
Oh and, @TooNu, I’m very tempted to tell someone to STFU (ahem) and it isn’t the women that you so lovingly describe as ‘man hating dykes.’
@Pidesco Its probably a case of what circles you move in. I know plenty of female gamers, several of them on the PC. I’m not talking about odd rounds of Peggle either, I’ve had discussions with them about Portal, Psychonauts, Baldurs’ Gate, Mass Effect, Half-Life etc.
09/04/2009 at 13:32 Cooper says:
TooNu troll is a troll.
Also, this just confirms what we already know – that Solitaire is a massive time sink?
I’m not sure any figures about pre-packaged MS games are all that important. So, people play minesweeper when bored ‘cos it’s there on the PC. Well done, that sure earned them their fees…
Anything on the growth in flash games and other casual games which imply an active seeking out of game playing would be more interesting…
09/04/2009 at 13:32 Duoae says:
I kinda skimmed through the article after it was announced that:
Those taking part in the MegaPanel have a software meter installed on their machines.
The tool is currently tracking over 1,777 individual PC game titles, and with over 185,000 participants
What this tells me is me is exactly what I expect to see – women tend to engage in social activities (whether they be experiments or whatnot) more often than men. Also, i don’t know about other gamers but i tend to not want extra programmes running in the background slowing down the performance of my PC…. nor do i want personally identifiable data being transmitted to a third party.
Maybe that’s a sexist attitude to have (?) and i’m making a huge assumption, but i think women, in general, are more socially-minded and would like to contribute to something. I, as a man, tend to be more insular and to not expose myself in these ways – especially when it’s not a scientific study.
Also, how are they pulling out millions of players numbers for games when their userbase is less than a quarter of a million? Are they extrapolating? Looking at the numbers from solitaire that’s 25 women per household/tracked PC and 16 men in the 25-54 age group (if we take 185,000 tracked PCs)… upping this to 250,000 (which you can be sure they would have put a higher number if it was significantly higher) that’s 18 women and 12 men per tracked PC. Looking at the linked PDF doesn’t show any explanation as to how they get these figures… however, i’m guessing that “unique players” means that they count the same person as many times as they use the game…. which is technically incorrect and should be labelled as number of times played or unique play instances and not unique players – which, of course, corresponds to an actual human.
Am i missing something really obvious here? I just can’t make sense of the information they’re presenting.
09/04/2009 at 13:32 schizoslayer says:
All over the internet you can see Nerds exploding as they get told that girls play more games than they do.
This is awesome.
09/04/2009 at 13:35 Tei says:
And this why I love “The Man of the Moon”. There are somethimes you have to make jokes only for yourself and your friend, and ignore demographics.
09/04/2009 at 13:47 malkav11 says:
What this data shows is that getting preinstalled with Windows does wonders for your figures.
09/04/2009 at 13:48 Steve says:
I really doubt this is entirely accurate. They’re basing their numbers off people who have installed their software, right?
I don’t think anyone smart would install it – hence the huge numbers of WoW players, I suppose.
09/04/2009 at 13:53 a rob amongst many says:
Haha nice on Steve. Buuuuurn!
09/04/2009 at 14:04 Xercies says:
What a surprise that female gamers are not actually gamers at all but are just playing Solitaire. Yes that was very sexist of me.
09/04/2009 at 14:04 Mejwell says:
I’m pretty sure playing Solitaire makes you a ‘PC gamer’ in the same way that playing GTA IV makes you a mass-murderer.
09/04/2009 at 14:08 cyrenic says:
Don’t trust statistics from Nielsen, particularly for PC games. Their TV numbers are questionable enough, their video game numbers are a joke. I’ve dealt with the company before, and they are completely incompetent when it comes to technology.
The high level picture they’re giving is probably accurate (Solitaire and WoW are popular, whodathunk!?), but any of their granular data is probably flat wrong.
09/04/2009 at 14:11 MadTinkerer says:
This surprises me not in the least. Ever since I became a Game Design major, my Mom has had more time to play games than me. It’s all Popcap and Popcap-type games.
But she doesn’t consider herself a “gamer” despite Bookworm Adventures and Puzzle Quest being pretty hardcore in their own way.
What we need is more World War 2 propaganda posters like the ones showing strong but feminine welders, only these ones would be for women gamers.
09/04/2009 at 14:18 Kieron Gillen says:
(I’ll admit: That we should re-widen the definition of PC Gaming is one of the reasons why I wanted to do RPS.)
KG
09/04/2009 at 14:26 Iain says:
@Mejwell:
So you’re only a PC gamer if you’ve jacked cars and murdered prostitutes on GTA, then?
See, this is what I love about ‘hardcore’ gamers. They’re such an open-minded, welcoming bunch. I wonder if these figures have been adjusted for all the women who pretend they’re guys online so that they don’t get sexually harassed…
09/04/2009 at 14:27 redrain85 says:
I really do believe these statistics are hopelessly flawed. Their sample is nowhere near large enough, and more importantly these people were volunteers who had to download and install software to track their gaming habits.
I have a hard time imagining the majority of gamers tending toward the hardcore would want to download software that adds more clutter to their machine, or willingly allow their activities to be tracked. It’s an invasion of privacy they’d want to avoid.
The results are likely skewed toward casual players, simply because those are the only people who wanted to participate.
09/04/2009 at 14:30 Barts says:
A perfect excuse to boast:
my girlfriend, apart from being one heck of a sexy cat, is also a gamer. Used to play a lot of computer games when she was alone (alone as in not dating anyone), not so much now.
She had Morrowind with mods installed so that her character would look like a kind of goth fairy (elvish chick with wings and emo makeup). She finished (!) Prince of Persia: Warrior Within. She had meticulously customized cars in Need for Speed Underground II.
Yes, you can all envy me now.
09/04/2009 at 14:32 jalf says:
@Iain: A better question is, if you haven’t jacked cars and murdered prostitutes in GTA, do you consider yourself a PC gamer?
Or in other words, yes, a lot of people play solitaire, or a Popcap game or two, but would *they* describe themselves as gamers because of that?
09/04/2009 at 14:33 Clockwork Harlequin says:
I feel utterly unmanned now that I am part of a demographic group that is dominated by females! Eeek! It’s almost as bad as wearing pink. . .
No really, are Neilsen really that inaccurate? Because the really worrying thing about this study is not gender, it’s age. And the ‘casual gamers’. Think about it: if the biggest audience for PC games is little old ladies hankering for Solitaire II: The Reckoning, the amount of money and effort poured into our favorite games (probably either indie or hardcore, and almost invariably shocking to little old ladies) would decrease. Maybe what will save us is the preinstalled nature of America’s top games. Who in their right mind is going to PAY for Solitaire II?
09/04/2009 at 14:36 JKjoker says:
Im surprised not to see the sims in there, in this country (Argentina) if you see anyone without testicles playing a pc game she is either playing flash games or the sims 1/2
09/04/2009 at 14:36 Iain says:
@redrain85:
If you think this sample was small, bear in mind that most opinion polls you see on the news have a sample size around the 1000 mark. This is why they tend to be caveated with a huge margin of error, of anything up to 5%.
Lies, damn lies and statistics…
But if you subscribe to the belief that the casual game market is significantly larger than the so-called hardcore market, they’re still worth considering. I mean, look at Nintendo’s sales figures and tell me that they don’t make more money out of the casual market than the hardcore crowd.
09/04/2009 at 14:40 Iain says:
@jalf:
That was kind of my point. They probably wouldn’t because being labelled with the tag ‘gamer’ in most people’s social circles is like being a convicted paedophile. And the attitude and behaviour of most ‘hardcore’ gamers doesn’t exactly help change people’s attitudes. For example, when was the last time you played on a public Counterstrike server?
Yes. Exactly….
09/04/2009 at 14:48 Mejwell says:
@Iain
Personally, I think that ‘Gamer’ is a silly sounding word and I think it would be better if people stopped using it altogether. Nevertheless, people who call themselves ‘Gamers’ typically use it in the way any other hobbyist would, in that they participate in the activity just for the sake of it.
Since I doubt people play Solitaire just for the thrill, reward, and engrossing nature of Solitaire, and also doubt that people who play Solitaire would self-label themselves ‘PC Gamers’, I think this is just a fluff article, and no one should read too much into it.
And hey, I could be wrong. Solitaire’s new episodic content promises to have a particularly compelling new storyline and art direction: I hear the Kings will blink in the next one!
09/04/2009 at 14:49 Steve says:
Iain: The tag “gamer” is obsolete. Everyone is a gamer in one form or another. It’s not like it was back in the 80′s/early 90′s anymore.
09/04/2009 at 14:51 Garu says:
I do not understand why on earth they would track 25-54 as just one huge demographic. Surely they could have broken it down a little better than that.
09/04/2009 at 14:56 JKjoker says:
@lain: while i agree there is a huge untapped market out there that the publishes let famish and are probably starving for games (which Nintendo hit nicely), the hardcore gamers are the ones that buy more than 1 game per year, or buy more than 1 console, etc…, even if they are less they probably spend more money than the casual group
Sadly now publishers (and specially Nintendo) are letting the hardcore base famish, (i wonder why they can just tap both, i haven’t played a new game that gave me any level of challenge in a looong time, even worse, now they almost always have the hard mode locked for achievements), however because of this they created a self fulfilling prophesy, if you only produce dumbed down casual games then thats the kind of gamer that will go out and buy your games while the others leave for books or larping, something similar happened with consoles, of course consoles overtook pc, if you release 80% of games for consoles only what choice do they have?
also, i always laugh at the error margin of statistics, the sample selection is CRUCIAL for the results, yet they almost never consider any error related to that, assuming the sample is perfect and just consider the Gauss bell error, you can completely change the results just by tweaking the sample
09/04/2009 at 14:57 Duoae says:
@Steve: Iain: The tag “gamer” is obsolete. Everyone is a gamer in one form or another. It’s not like it was back in the 80’s/early 90’s anymore.
Well, we need a descriptor. People LARP, others are chess players, some are modellers/model builders and yet more are amateur ‘enthusiasts’ or train spotters. The term “Gamer” is just short for Videogamer… yes, pretty much everyone in their lives plays ‘games’ of some sort but not everyone takes a pasttime to the level of enthusiast.
09/04/2009 at 15:06 Duoae says:
JKjoker…. i find it worrying that we both mention LARPing at the same time…… there must be something in the water.
o_O
09/04/2009 at 15:07 Iain says:
@Steve:
The concept of a “gamer” didn’t exist back in the ’80s. Playing videogames didn’t nearly have the same kind of social stigma as it does now, either.
I remember staying up with my Dad playing Lords of Midnight on the Spectrum well into the early hours of weekends (bearing in mind that I was all of about 8 years old at the time) because we were determined to “beat that game”. Twenty-five years later though, you wouldn’t get my Dad playing Empire Total War with me now.
Back in the 8-bit era, playing videogames was just something people did – it didn’t identify you as part of a social group. That’s a much more recent phenomenon. People love their labels, because it gives people an excuse to categorise and dismiss without actually taking the time to understand the real issues. But that’s drifting off-topic.
09/04/2009 at 15:09 Jesucristo says:
Who is Nielsen?, Leslie Nielsen?
09/04/2009 at 15:10 Azazel says:
So… basically they’re saying that the girls in HR just sit around playing Solitaire all day? Well I could have told you that!
/goes back to browsing internet gaming forums all day
09/04/2009 at 15:12 Rob says:
I find the Chessmaster Challenge one the most interesting. A solidly if not outstandingly performing series makes a move to casual portals, and reaps the rewards. Indicative of the changing opportunities in the industry mentioned in the post perhaps?
09/04/2009 at 15:17 Heliocentric says:
I’m just going to go chat up schizoslayer’s mum over a game of zoo keeper. But it needs to be said, this is not scientific data. But! People who are willing to install spyware play casual games and wow. This is notable if you manufacture spyware.
09/04/2009 at 15:17 Iain says:
@JKJoker:
You can’t blame games companies for going where the money is. If you have a game that’s looks better than anything coming out of Hollywood, is three times as innovative as Halo and three times as deep as your average historical strategy game, but it takes $50million to produce and only 100,000 people are going to buy it… that’s not what I call a sound business plan.
The market for ‘hardcore’ games simply isn’t as viable as it used to be. Nintendo realised this early and opted out of the ‘photo-realistic graphics or bust’ hardware chase, and I think it was a smart move. I don’t think there are really hard numbers on the difference between ‘casual’ and ‘hardcore’ gamers’ buying habits, but if you have 100,000 ‘hardcore’ gamers who buy (say) five games a year on average compared to 2,000,000 people who buy one or two games a year, it’s pretty clear which market makes you more money.
I can only think of one market within PC gaming that’s still as unabashedly hardcore as it used to be 20 years ago – and that’s flight simulations. But even that’s teetering on the verge of unprofitability – mainly because the flight sim demographic can best be described as aging. Which is why we saw Microsoft shut down their Flight Sim development team a few months ago.
09/04/2009 at 15:26 Chris says:
So, does this mean game publishers will shift from using stereotypical curvaceous women in chain mail bikinis to massively hung men nearly bursting from their cod piece? That, in future Tomb Raider versions, will be watching the ass of Lara Croft’s little known younger brother Layton Croft?
09/04/2009 at 15:27 phil says:
I would be interesting to see similar stats for the Wii, in that it’s marketed to a wide range of demographics but it’s far more self-selecting, with bulk of the user base perhaps more willing to identify themselves as gamers. Perhaps Wii Sport could be the new Solitare.
09/04/2009 at 15:32 Butler` says:
Out of all the people and contacts throughout my life in work, education and personal life, I know absolutely no one that consistently plays the games bundled with Windows.
In fact, I can only recall one person ever playing any of them, and that was a certain friend’s Dad playing Solitaire.
That includes mum, dad, sister, girlfriends, colleagues (some that work in IT and some in games journo), friends – both gamers and otherwise.
Just w t f? :p
09/04/2009 at 15:35 John Walker says:
phil – the Wii (along with the GameCube) had the smallest numbers of daily sessions, average usage days and active user percent (whatever that is). “Predominant users of the Wii and GameCube are likely to use these consoles at most once a week and for fewer minutes and the fewest number of sessions compared to the other two groups of consoles.”
09/04/2009 at 15:38 JonFitt says:
I’d say my wife’s a hardcore gamer and has been on and off since the 386/486 days, but she doesn’t play shooters. She’ll eat up RPGs like Oblivion, Fable, King’s Bounty, KOTOR, and likes games like Civ and all the Caesar-like games.
I also introduced her to The Longest Journey, (and she was pissed when she got to the end of Dreamfall and found out there is no conclusion).
I’d bet that a huge percentage of those people putting 30 minutes a day into Solitaire would answer ‘no’ to ‘do you play computer games?’.
09/04/2009 at 15:42 Mym says:
The age slices are horrible. I doubt they are adjusted so that each represents the same portion of their sample (they should be), but regardless, a woman age 25 at the time of the survey was born in 1983, was three years old when Super Mario Bros. was released and eight when the Super Nintendo rolled around. She grew up with these things. A woman age 54 was born in 1954, and the 25-year-olds growing up with video games could be her kids.
09/04/2009 at 15:46 Andy`` says:
Rock, Paper, Solitaire?
The term “Gamer” is just short for Videogamer
That reminded me of when a friend of mine (far older than me too) claimed Jim was short for Jimmy, but not James. I almost walked out the room (and away from a free beer).
Nevermind that ‘Videogamer’ isn’t a single word, when chess players, wargamers and tabletop gamers are considered to be “gamers” one way or the other, how can you then exclude that entire group by claiming that the term “gamer” only applies to the field that you’re common with, computerised games?
I don’t really know what to think of the term “gamer” though. It’s better applied to those enthusiastic about the field, sure, and best applied to those that self-describe them as gamers, but there are a large chunk of game enthusiasts out there that don’t really get why they would be considered ‘gamers’ (for example, if they play alot of flash games or lightweight games). Similarly, there are people who play some of the more heavyweight games that simply couldn’t be described as gamers (eg: they’re happy to play a bit of Halo or Gears of War, and can be reasonably good at them, but usually if they’re with friends or something – it’s not really something they’d usually spend any of their free time doing at all, and they’re certainly not that enthusiastic about games). And it gets worse – you’d expect people who work in QA testing, for instance, would all be considered gamers but I know a guy who worked in QA that didn’t like games all that much, and another who spent a fair proportion of his free time playing Solitaire. And no, they weren’t in the wrong job, they were very good at what they did.
The term’s almost as bad as ‘gameplay’ in the way it bundles everyone together in a mishmash that nobody truely understands or can make sense of, to the point where anyone can twist the term to their own ends. Don’t like.
09/04/2009 at 15:51 Heliocentric says:
In the ruined united kingdom the 54 year old could be the 25 year old’s grandmother, its america though.
Just saying.
09/04/2009 at 16:09 undead dolphin hacker says:
God help me, but I know what you’re talking about.
You know when you’re going out and anticipate taking some chick home with you so you clean up your apartment and all before you leave? I think many men past the age of 20 or so incorporate the hiding of their XBox/Playstation/PC games (it’s socially acceptable to have a Wii, though) into this ritual.
I’m 23 and I envy the hell out of my 18 year old brother. All the girls he knows play “hardcore” games and no one raises an eyebrow if he’s seen playing some goofy butch space marine game or cartoony anime JRPG.
Sucks for those of us in our 20s, though — we’re caught on the edge of the generational shift.
09/04/2009 at 16:17 Klaus says:
Ha! Go nerd rage. Sometimes I regret being apathetic about nearly everything, this is not not one of them.
The only windows games I play are Mahjong and InkBall. I don’t quite get Tinker yet.
Hmm… I would say that if you spend more than thirty minutes a day, just about everyday playing preinstalled Microsoft games, then you are a ‘gamer’… mayhaps a cheap one or an isolated? one. But one all the same.
Kinda like my uncle who claimed he wasn’t a bicycler, but did it for a few hours almost everyday. I mean, c’mon. Sure you don’t wear those little shorts but it’s pretty much the same damn thing.
09/04/2009 at 16:26 AbyssUK says:
Did this questionable survey also include web games ? say like neopets or that casual EA thing?
AND the ultimate question what ranking was Peggle?
09/04/2009 at 16:27 Tworak says:
These guys placed Halo 1 PC pretty high on the PC list last year just pointing that out.
09/04/2009 at 16:32 Xercies says:
@undead dolphin hacker
I say your wrong because I’m 18 and I can not find where these girls are, and judging from the above posts it seems a lot of older people have girlfriends or wives that play games as well.
09/04/2009 at 16:37 JKjoker says:
@Duoade: those youtube vids are powerful images *lighting bolt!*
@Lain : i disagree, 90% of that budget is for graphics, publishers have lost touch with what i care about, almost every game released today has more than “good enough” graphics i really rather they would spend that money in gameplay or better (actually today it would be “functional”) AI or content, i can play 2~10 year old games or low budget indie games and enjoy them a lot more than AAA games
09/04/2009 at 16:40 JonFitt says:
Does anyone here have their spy program installed? Were any of our indie game playing habits recorded?
09/04/2009 at 16:43 Duoae says:
@Andy –
That reminded me of when a friend of mine (far older than me too) claimed Jim was short for Jimmy, but not James. I almost walked out the room (and away from a free beer).
Nevermind that ‘Videogamer’ isn’t a single word, when chess players, wargamers and tabletop gamers are considered to be “gamers” one way or the other, how can you then exclude that entire group by claiming that the term “gamer” only applies to the field that you’re common with, computerised games?
I think you’re misinterpreting me. I never said that the term “gamer” is specific to people who play video games just that in this instance it is the pasttime that is implied from our discussion. We’re not talking about people who play chess or LARP or whatever – like i said, they are all gamers: “people who play games” but they are not pertinent to this discussion…. we don’t need to define the term when we use it because context gives us the clue as to its function…. but we still need the term. It’s not obsolete as the person i was replying to was saying and it is short for video gamer (sorry, two words!) but doesn’t need to be stated every time we use it in a discussion with appropriate context.
09/04/2009 at 16:47 JonFitt says:
@Duoae
Actually, “video gamer” is a fairly American/Console centred term. Where I come from we were always “computer gamers” who played “computer games”.
09/04/2009 at 16:56 Heliocentric says:
I have commonly called them murder simulators,or simulators. Also for anything with you issuing commands wee man games (circa consolevainia) or simply playing with my ‘mans’.
09/04/2009 at 17:05 Duoae says:
@ JonFitt… okay, so for you gamer (in the context of computer/video games) is short for computer gamer. Do you see why i think Gamer is an appropriate shortened term? There’s no one universal description of our hobby like there is for chess players, for instance. Is it any different in meaning for you?
09/04/2009 at 17:09 James G says:
@JonFitt
Same here, although I’ve noticed the term ‘videogames’ is gaining traction in the UK as well, possibly because of the increasing role of consoles. Personally I’ve always disliked the term, it sounds so much more trivial and childish than ‘computer games.’
09/04/2009 at 17:14 spinks says:
I don’t entirely understand why shooters are more hardcore than WoW? Is it just that young male players are more likely to play games designed for young male players or is there something more?
09/04/2009 at 17:15 Nutkins Victory Otter says:
I’m with Steve, although I was going for a more misogynistic angle. That said I’m sure a lot of male WoW players could be mistaken for women.
09/04/2009 at 17:20 Nutkins Victory Otter says:
Video games was what old duffers used to call them back in the 70s/80s. Now it’s the kids who are all about the vidya. That’s how language works.
09/04/2009 at 17:31 TariqOne says:
Oh man. It takes a special kind of nerd to get threatened by both women playing PC games AND World of Warcraft.
Anyway: rock on, sisters. I for one am glad you’re with us and welcome our nice-smelling new X-chromosome-laden overlords.
And I’m kind of scared for my little daughter after reading this thread.
09/04/2009 at 17:32 Danarchist says:
I know plenty of girl gamers, hell my incredibly pretty girlfriend (she might read this…) is in a all female wow guild. They require you to pop onto vent and talk before they let you in lol! Genitalia really doesn’t make the huge impact on human nature that so many seem convinced of. The ability to have babies in no way makes blowing a mutant to bloody gibbets any less fun. The again when I was in my twenties I never admitted my everquest addiction to anyone in a social situation that I wasnt certain gamed. I think when you finally grow up you grow out of stereotyping peoples hobbies. Hell my younger brother is obsessed with his flower garden, and working his way up through the UFC bush leagues. Or maybe maturity just means you no longer give a flying sh*$ what anyone else thinks. Meh wheres my cane at now….damn hoodlums must of stole it…
09/04/2009 at 17:54 JonFitt says:
@Duoae
I’m fine with gamer meaning computer/video game player. I think it’s by far the most prevalent usage of the word. Chess players can suck it :). I just wanted to make sure you understood the limitations of ‘videogamer’. Especially on a UK based PC games site :).
@James G
I have also noticed the rise of ‘videogamer’. I think it’s partly to do with the rise in the consumption of US games journalism in the UK though the web, and also because of the wet-napkin performance of most of the good old British games publishers. The UK used to be a much larger player in PC gaming.
I’m not ranting, I’ve just noticed that 10-15 years ago a lot of the games I was playing were produced in the UK (probably by two guys in a shed in Romford).
09/04/2009 at 18:30 Kanakotka says:
Yeah, no. 125,000 is less than a fraction of a percent, and cannot be used for the slightest amount of accurate analysis, with such a small number, and such a high amount of pc gamers, the error margin is more than 80% on this study. Also, it’s of subject matter where this information is gathered from, a recent finnish “study” by an evening newspaper has muchly the same amount of errorenous data in it.
They asked from (interest point here) players/chatters of habbo hotel what they like to do. Is it surprise to anyone that the outcome was ”dating on the net and buying virtual small things(micropurchasing)” ?
So, the study concluded loudly that ”all young people on the net enjoy dating and games where micropurchasing is present”.
It’s just ridiculous. :P
09/04/2009 at 18:31 Kanakotka says:
Also, males are less… this is wrongly said, but less GULLIBLE on taking software to their computers that sends data to the internet on sources that they really do not know anything of and cannot trust, and females are more… eager to join these kind of studies.
09/04/2009 at 18:36 yutt says:
@spinks
Honestly I think it is just because FPS games were an early genre, therefore we early adopters of video gaming are more experienced, skilled, and nostalgic for these mature genres. So, you end up with self-identified hardcore gamers who feel their entertainment and identity threatened by “casual” games and players. They feel the need to differentiate games they enjoy from games that the new wider audience enjoys.
The unpopular reality is: WoW is no less hardcore than any FPS game. From high level PvP or raiding the game requires the same skills, and more, than the average competitive FPS. The UI is different, the interaction with the game world via the mechanics are different, but it is no more “casual”.
In fact, WoW requires significantly more time, study, logistical, managerial and social skills, and active thought to become truly skilled with than any FPS or RTS game I’ve played. As well it should as it is far, far more complex.
If “gamers” want to identify their games as hardcore because they are more simplistic, that’s fine and really more honest, but I don’t think that is the message they want to send.
FYI: My first video game was Wolfenstein 3D, and I am an active and avid TF2 and L4D player (You can view my Steam profile on my name above). FPS games are my favorite genre and always will be. I am also an active WoW player since release.
09/04/2009 at 18:55 Erlam says:
I think the people saying this ‘isn’t an accurate’ stat because only certain people would install the software, etc, are being unrealistic.
I mean what are political polls, which are largely accurate: 2000 calls to people? Only certain people would answer the phone, only people who have home phones would answer… and so on.
At some point you have to just accept that these stats are largely accurate.
09/04/2009 at 19:04 Serondal says:
Habbo Hotel lol, It continues to amaze me that if there is a game out there SOMEONE will play it. Even if it looks like Mario’s pixlated puke there is always some persons out there enjoying themselves with it. take all these Korean grinders for example, they all have tons of people playing on them even though they are all like the same game, how do you choose which one to play ?
09/04/2009 at 19:04 Karrius says:
Yeah, no. 125,000 is less than a fraction of a percent, and cannot be used for the slightest amount of accurate analysis, with such a small number, and such a high amount of pc gamers, the error margin is more than 80% on this study.
I’m assuming by “Error Margin” you mean margin of error, in which case, we need to go to Morbo. Morbo?
MARGIN OF ERROR DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Thank you, Morbo.
No, really, it doesn’t. Margin of error doesn’t care about the % of the population you interview unless that % is high. In this case, it’s not, so it only cares about the number of people interviewed, no matter how big the population is. In this case, that number is quite high, so the margin of error is less than one percent.
Now, it’s still entirely possible that the survey methods may be inaccurate (which, however, I doubt, and intend to prove later) – but that has nothing to do with the margin of error.
09/04/2009 at 19:06 Steve says:
TariqOne: I’m not threatened at all, but women who declare themselves “GIRL GAMERS” and claim they’re as good as guys (I don’t doubt that) make me feel like bursting a blood vessel in my forehead.
Some men can do womenly things, but you don’t see them screaming about and claiming theyre “MALE CHEFS” or whatever.
Attentionwhores, that’s what self-proclaimed “GIRL GAMERS” are.
Think I got a bit off-topic there.
09/04/2009 at 19:20 yutt says:
@Steve
Male gamers also don’t suffer from the same social stigma attached to being a gamer (that it is a male hobby), or sexual harassment or ridicule for being gamers.
Now if we apply a more apt comparison, such as say, male nurses, suddenly we do have that as an similarly gender-specific stereotype, and everything you stated is ignorant, inapt, and judgmental. Amazing.
09/04/2009 at 19:21 Duoae says:
@JonFitt – i know it’s bad to assume (because you seem to be assuming i’m American) but i live and have grown up in the UK…. computer gaming and video gaming have been equal terms throughout my youth… computer gaming (aside from the title of a magazine) as a term is pretty much dead now. Personally i feel that “video games” covers all games played on a video-based device (i.e. TV or monitor) as opposed to board games etc. “Computer games”, for me, only covers the PC (and possibly Mac) but not consoles which means that it’s more limited than the other term. :)
09/04/2009 at 19:30 Iain says:
@JKjoker: publishers have lost touch with what i care about
I absolutely agree. If graphics were really *that* important, the Wii wouldn’t be the best-selling console of this hardware generation. (And going back, the PS1 and PS2 both trounced technically superior consoles – Dreamcast and Xbox, respectively – in terms of sales, too.)
Trying to sell games according to their graphics only works if you have an actual game behind the looks, which is precisely why spending three-quarters of your development budget on a graphics engine is invariably a huge waste of money that could (as you say) be better spent elsewhere.
The problem is that developers and publishers think that people demand better-looking graphics year on year, and it’s simply not true. They’re great if you can have them, for sure, but give me an interesting game that looks like a drowned dog rather than a mono-browed corridor shooter with shinies coming out of the ears every time.
09/04/2009 at 19:37 DMJ says:
@Karrius: Morbo should be consulted more often in discussions about statistics. Or, indeed, anything. Truly, Morbo is the voice of reason in a world gone mad.
Even though we shall all inevitably perish when his numerous and ravenous offspring reach our puny planet.
09/04/2009 at 19:38 Serondal says:
I was shocked by these results , not because of the number of females playing this game or that game, but by the sheer number of people playing card games that come installed on the computer! Seriously! I played free cell one time and I was like ” WTF I’d use a deck of cards if I wanted to do this.”
I could see playing poker on the net, you need other people to do that with but the games mentioned are all single player :P Looks like a lot of people baught their aging mothers a computer that ended up being a high tech card playing machine for them.
09/04/2009 at 20:11 DigitalSignalX says:
SBHM GSOH WLTM SWF HWP ; RTS, FPS, MMORPG.
09/04/2009 at 20:39 Timofee says:
These figures are seem almost deliberately misleading. As someone mentioned the huge age range for 25 – 54 is highly suspicious and the graphical representation is either designed by an idiot or absolutely by someone aiming to mislead. Allow me to explain: -
Our eye is immediately drawn to the peaks and so of courss most people focus on those. However, if we spend 10 seconds thinking about it its ridiculous to draw the conclusions mentioned above. Take male gamers: we see that roughly 5% of the player sample is in the age range 18 – 24, that covers 7 years worth births, now look that 20% of the sample is between 25 – 54, representing 30 years worth of births. (Some of you will be able to see where I’m going, unfortunately at least 60% can’t which is why we have the problem in the first place!) 30 is over 4 times larger than 7 so we would expect to see a similar increase in the % of the sample and lo and behold that is exactly what we see. Thanks for your amazingly revealing statistics Neilsen, you’re fabulous!
In terms of the Female skew in the figures, I’m too lazy to go and check but you’ll find that in most Western countries the proportion of Females to males is not 50/50 as you’d perhaps expect but can be in the range of 60/40 (and no this isn’t just old women living longer it applies at all age ranges). Neilsen will almost certainly have taken a representative split of the countries demographic which means they may well have more women testing.
09/04/2009 at 20:41 Timofee says:
Also, the fact that the bar chart is using the default MS Excel colours for 97 / 03 doesn’t inspire my confidence
09/04/2009 at 20:45 Arathain says:
Steve: so, it’s OK for girls to play as as they’re, you know, quiet about it?
I play games and I’m proud if it. I’ll stand up and say that. When women move into a traditionally male space, like gaming, I want them to be proud too. I want them to be able to stand up and say it. To claim their rights and their space, and to encourage the quiet ones. One day, when stereotyped social distinctions are a thing of the past we can respond to declarations with “Yeah? And?” We’re not there yet.
“Womenly things”… seriously?
09/04/2009 at 21:06 Serondal says:
Really, no one should be proud of about spending this much time gaming and being alone.
Timofee you are right of course, I should have learned my lesson from watching Cyber Chase with my kids they had an episode about people trying to mislead you with a graph chart ;P For example showing two charts side by side where one increases by 100s and the other by 10, the one that increases by 100s looks a lot smaller than the one increasing by 10s, giving you illusion that one is larger but really isn’t O.o
Any how all of these polls are misleading on purpose, these Nelson people can make a poll come out to say anything they want or they person paying them to do the poll wants it to say.
09/04/2009 at 21:38 Phydaux says:
@Karrius – You are completely correct. If Nielsen were to take a census of the population they could be sure that, (assuming the sample is fair) it would be accurate to less than 1% difference with the MASSIVE sample they’ve picked. For Nielsen to be 99% confident their results only differ by 2% from the US population, they would only need a sample size of around 4200.
Now, my figures may be a little off, I’m a little drunk this evening.
Clearly there is a point where the sample size can be too low, but it’s not usually the problem. It’s how you pick the sample that is important. And I think it’s a fair criticism of Nielsen. Their figures show information about the sort of people who wanted to be tracked by them, this may be significantly different to the population. If their methods for picking a sample are bad, it won’t change by adding more people.
09/04/2009 at 21:40 redrain85 says:
I just noticed the update to the article.
I still think this study is bollocks, regardless. You had to opt-in and install spyware to be a part of it. There’s a difference between a one-time survey by phone for a statistics poll, and committing yourself to being watched 24/7. It’s going to affect the participation in this study, and its results.
Those statistics polls you see on the news, with small samples, might work and be reasonably accurate. But usually because it’s only relevant to that specific region. You don’t need such a large survey sample in that case, to be accurate.
But what games people play on a PC is a worldwide phenomenon. Yet, here we are with a sample which wasn’t that large, and the study was limited a specific region (the U.S.) only.
Just to clarify: I personally have no doubt that there are significantly more female gamers today, and have nothing against that. I just don’t think these numbers are particularly accurate, as a whole. They’re like the equally worthless NPD PC sales charts.
Get back to us when a larger sample from across the world has been surveyed, where you simply ask what games people are playing rather than expecting them to install spyware. That should help increase participation and significantly improve the accuracy of the results.
09/04/2009 at 21:55 bitkari says:
If I were Microsoft, I’d be thinking about bundling in an MMO with Windows 7…
09/04/2009 at 22:02 JKjoker says:
whats wrong with using excel 97 ? it has more than enough functionality for regular office work, it is cheaper and it works on old computers and it actually runs better than new office suits
in fact i would say they might be smarter for not jumping into the must-upgrade bandwagon
the only reason i had to upgrade my office is because it would refuse to open documents made with newer versions, meh (same goes for adobe acrobat, stupid bloated crap)
09/04/2009 at 22:06 JKjoker says:
@bitkari : if i were Microsoft i’d be thinking of actually adding meaningful features to win7 instead of just putting lipstick on the vista pig
09/04/2009 at 22:29 Karrius says:
@Phydaux
It’s how you pick the sample that is important. And I think it’s a fair criticism of Nielsen..
Agreed, and I said as much. :) I’ll go on about this in a sec, but I just wanted to show how amazingly silly the “80% margin of error” was. I mean, 80%, 0.2%. Same damn thing, right?
Now, I had intended to show that the WoW numbers were accurate, as they looked accurate to me, cross-referencing the Daedalus Project. And so I looked it up, and…
The two sources totally differ. Daedalus had females at 16%, yet confirmed the trend that most of that 16% is in more mature women. Leaving us with three choices:
1) The Deadalus project is wrong.
2) The Nielsen Study is wrong.
3) They’re BOTH right – the Daedalus Project, made in 2005, is outdated, and the % of women on WoW has doubled since then.
I find it fascinating, in any case – I’m willing to believe any of the three are true.
But what games people play on a PC is a worldwide phenomenon. Yet, here we are with a sample which wasn’t that large, and the study was limited a specific region (the U.S.) only.
It’s totally unreasonable to complain that the Neilsen study isn’t taking into account people all over the world. Isn’t the entire purpose of this study to sell data to US advertisers?
09/04/2009 at 22:46 Biz says:
“software meter installed on their machines”
that explains the sample size
09/04/2009 at 22:51 redrain85 says:
@Karrius:
I realize that Nielsen only operates in the U.S., and who they’re selling this data to.
But that’s precisely what I’m getting at. It’s why we shouldn’t put too much stock in these Nielsen numbers. It’s a U.S.-centric study. (And not a particularly good one, at that.)
A better organization to do this type of survey might be the PCGA. Let them make themselves useful (because I don’t know what the hell else they’ve been doing lately) for a change. Publish a counter-study to this one, based on worldwide data gathering. I’d really like to see that. I’m betting the results will be quite different.
09/04/2009 at 22:55 Zee says:
Maybe the data on Half Life 2 is representative of ALL the games that run on the hl2.exe (TF2, HL2 Episodes, L4d, etc), not just Half Life 2 itself.
10/04/2009 at 01:24 andrew says:
@Danarchist
Yes, you can regurgitate pc social science 101;, the only difference between the sexes is genitalia etc etc. I’m sure millions of years of role differentiation between combat and hunting for men, and social interaction and multitasking for women is just invented, and yet oh look; men overwhelmingly play games focussed on coordination, combat, tactics and teamwork, while women play games based around socialising and that can be played while performing other tasks, funny that one. Let me guess though, they’ve probably been socialised by the bourgeouis, patriarchal, capitalist imperial oppressors or somesuch other group.
10/04/2009 at 01:47 Ginger Yellow says:
What these statistics tell me is that the ESA/ELSPA should launch an anti-trust suit against MS to stop them bundling games with Windows. They’ve got just as good a case as anyone else.
10/04/2009 at 02:50 Jetsetlemming says:
These seem about as useless as any other US-based PC figures, personally. 180k gamers who specifically agreed to have their gaming habits monitored by Nelson? Eh. This doesn’t say “More women play games” but “More middle aged women gamers pay attention to Nelson ratings and would agree to particulate in such a study.”
10/04/2009 at 04:13 Iain says:
@JKjoker:
Yup, absolutely nothing wrong with Excel 97. It even had a Flight Simulator Easter Egg. Excel 2000 has a Spy Hunter clone hidden in it, too. But then Microsoft went all poe-faced and threatened to sack people if they put Easter Eggs in their Office Products… A pity, really.
10/04/2009 at 09:44 M.P. says:
Agree about the 25-54 thing, that’s a huge segment of the market lumped together. If the RPS guys could send the heavies in to muscle some more info out of Nielsen I’d like to see a breakdown of that category:
a. Is the population evenly-spread throughout that category?
b. If not, where’s the drop-off point? Is it different for men and for women?
The 54+ statistic is interesting though. I’m sure that percentage will rise when the huge number of us who started gaming in the 80s and 90s reach retirement age! :p
10/04/2009 at 10:52 Timofee says:
@JKjoker and Iain
I’ve got no problem with using 97 or 03, well at least no problem with 03 (97 is severely lacking a lot of really useful formula’s / functions added in 03). I do however have a problem with the use of default colours which are a) hideous and b) show a distinct lack of imagination / branding / effort from such a large company.
10/04/2009 at 12:28 theanorak says:
@redrain
the PCGA would be precisely the *wrong* organisation to carry out the study. Firstly, they’re an industry lobby group, not a stats/polling company — expertise gap. Secondly, they’re an industry lobby group, not a stats/polling company — OMG teh BIAS!
The thing with the “spyware”/opt-in is a tricky problem to solve, I’d think. And lets not forget, this isn’t spyware per se. The participants will have been contacted, and asked if they would be willing to participate. They might well have been offered an incentive (install our software for a month and we’ll give you a $50 Amazon voucher).
As far as accuracy is concerned, I’d take this data over ringing people up and asking for a list of all the games they played this week and how long they played them.
—
Neilsen Media Research are, for better or worse, a professional stats-gathering/analysing company focused on tv and other kinds of media. They, or one of their competitors, are precisely the type of company who can most accurately produce this kind of data.
Oh, and on the branding thing: that doesn’t surprise me in the least. It was put together by one analyst by pulling data from their subscription product(s). Most of the “produced by a researcher”-type docs I see are similar in structure and format. For anything not handed over to “design” or “marketing” before publication, it’s entirely dependent on whether the company has well defined document templates in Word, Powerpoint etc. Most seem not to!
10/04/2009 at 12:45 catska says:
Just telling us what we already know. PC is now dominated by casual games like solitare and Popcap stuff and MMORPGs like WoW while the hardcore games all move over to consoles.
‘A better organization to do this type of survey might be the PCGA.’
Hah yeah so we can get another completely biased and inaccurate ‘horizons’ report that claims that a billion chinese people paying money for in-game pants means PC gaming is thriving.
10/04/2009 at 16:21 drewski says:
1800 or so people is shedloads for a statistically significant survey, and they weight their results so that you don’t get selection bias from the sample.
I know statistics isn’t a very interesting subject, but most of the objections I’ve read in the comments are quite ignorant of the way market research is actually done.
The outrage that women play more games then men is particularly amusing, as is the ridiculous claims that any game insufficiently hardcore for a particular poster’s taste isn’t “really a PC game”.
All of my female friends game to some extent, whether it be Hearts or minigolf or snake on their phones. A girl I used to live with is a hardcore Guitar Hero player. Another girl I know comes to LANs and kicks my arse at Warcraft.
Oh noes! My masculinity is so threatened!
16/04/2009 at 00:05 redrain85 says:
Just a quick follow-up to all the naysayers, arguing that the PCGA is biased and such . . .
Here’s the first of a new five part interview with the PCGA from PCWorld.
PCWorld PCGA Interview
And some choice quotes from the first part of that interview.
The formation of the organization occurred in private prior to forming a public nonprofit corporation based out of Oregon. We’re a 501c, which is the distinction for nonprofits that are industry consortiums. This gives us a forum for coming together and having open discussions about the direction of the industry without having any conflicts. If we met as individuals from each of our companies exclusively, there would be antitrust implications that wouldn’t be able to be sorted out as succinctly as through an organization that says at the beginning of every meeting, hey guys, we have an antitrust statement, we read it off, you’re expected to know it, you’re expected to understand it, you’re expected to respect it.
Why would you believe the console vendors numbers just because they’re coming from the console vendor? Why would you believe Sony’s numbers just because Sony’s reporting them or Nintendo’s reporting them? The whole point of this was that prior to our organization existing, you had all of us fragmented, coming in and wanting to do great things for PC gaming but none of us having a concise voice that said hey look, we’re not trying to cook the books, we’re just trying to make sure they get counted fairly and accurately.
They’re a separate, non-profit organization. Did you guys really think the PCGA would be stupid enough to allow themselves to easily be accused of bias?
You can still accuse them of cooking the books, if you like. But as Stude pointed out, Microsoft and Sony can just as easily play numbers games too.
16/04/2009 at 02:16 redrain85 says:
Amusingly, the third part of the interview was just posted online and addressed this very subject (the Nielsen study)!
PCWorld PCGA Interview – Part 3
It’s like the Nielsen rating report that came out the other day that said the majority of PC gamers were female. These guys have obviously never been to China, because in China, it’s overwhelming how many people are gaming on PCs there, and the overwhelming majority of them are male. There’s a lot more female than you might expect in China but it’s still dramatically different than the picture Nielsen painted. Nielsen has their methodology that they choose to use, which is largely North America, and it’s an opt in mentality. NPD takes the same approach. You can go sign up on their website today and become a feedback mechanism for things that they can’t measure in their retail research reports.