By Kieron Gillen on March 22nd, 2010 at 7:42 pm.
Because we really probably should post it even though no-one has the time to take it properly to task. I suspect we’d have said something similar to The Sixth Axis’ Open letter to ITV. You have to feel for C&VG’s Tim Ingham, who even by appearing on the show is pretty damn brave. Putting aside the research seemingly pulled from thin air, the latter-day attempt to link the Bulger killing to videogames is openly disgraceful. Watch and despair.
UPDATE: C&VG Uncover some interesting stuff about the vehemently anti-violent entertainment Julie Peasgood. She voice-acted in the old, terrible game Martian Gothic. The word you’re looking for is “Hypocrite”. It doesn’t mean that she’s particularly judgmental of large, African water-dwelling mammals.
As the Sixth Axis note, if you want to compose a polite complaint to ITV, here’s their contact details. I stress, polite.
Its programs like this that make me have to grimace and look embarressed every time I explain my life-ambition to anyone from this country. I mean I’ve gotten good at my “media representaiton of games is awful” lines, but I look foward to the day I won’t have to repeat them to everyone I meet, y’know? Like I have to justify myself because I want to make games.
Shame on you Alan. Get back in the garden.
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Well, hmm.
There was me thinking this sort of attack on video games had gone out of style. The whole affair seems bizzarely retro.
Ho hum.
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That’s exactly why I don’t want to watch it…cause I’m afraid my hippie haircut would return If I did…*shivers*
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I for one feel safer knowing that these brave folks are defending us from intelligent discourse.
In all seriousness, though, what’s the problem? There are plenty of talking heads that can rabble-rouse, but it doesn’t look like they have the clout to effect any real political change; cooler heads will prevail. I hope.
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Yeees. I watched this. As with most gaming-related things, it’s not awful, just stupid. The cinema analogy in the first few minutes is golden.
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Gaaarrrrgke! : (
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I love the way he avoids the existence of DVDs, and doesn’t think games have ratings.
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Well actually due to a legal screw-up the UK doesn’t currently have any legally enforceable ratings for video games.
Also, although the government has said that the UK is switching from BBFC ratings (for some games) to compulsory PEGI ratings for almost all games, it hasn’t actually passed the relevant laws yet nor is it clear that he powers have been passed over from the BBFC to the VSC yet.
In fact I have found it difficult to establish what the law is now and what it is going to be if the Digital Ecomony Bill is passed, in terms of the exact criteria used for different ratings, on what basis any game would ever be banned or refused classification, what games/downloads/mods/etc will be required to get PEGI certification or how they are going to regulate digital downloads, online games, mods and indies.
I have started a thread about it hre if anyone can shed any light on it:
“Censorship and control of videogames in the UK?”
http://rockpapershotgun.com/rpsforum/topic.php?id=2177
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Sorry, make that “until 21 January 2010″ – they had to repeal and reinstated the Video Recordings Act 1984 to make it legally valid.
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Yeah, the Bulger reference was utterly ridiculous.Although if it hadn’t been for that point MacKenzie would have come off a bit more reasonable – at least he admitted he didn’t really know much about the subject and his concerns were understandable and you get the impression that talking to him reasonably for a while you might convince him that games wont lead to a slide into moral corruption.
Peasgood on the other hand was an absolute joke, clearly unwilling to listen and spewing off crowd pleasing vitriol.
Tim did his best, bless him, but it was clear much of the audience just didn’t want to listen.
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To be generous, I hope MacKenzie was misremembering the whole Child’s Play part of the Bulger story – also disproved – and thinking the movie was a game.
KG
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That woman is completely vile.
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Amen. He shoulda punched that white trash ho, right back into the kitchen where she belongs!
(I thought he did pretty well)
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Jimbo – I hope that was some heavy, heavy irony in a Chris Morris stylee.
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@Edgar agreed. It would be disappointing if the anger this thing (rightly) provokes in gamers turned to misogyny. The lady was hardly alone in making offensive, uniformed statements about games. The entire thing was constructed by ITV to present the audience with what they wanted to hear: anti videogame anger. Tim Ingram is a hero for facing that.
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Of course, might as well joke about it. We are about 5 years and a billion pounds worth of tax revenue p.a. beyond ever needing to try and justify ourselves to these people. Those days are long gone.
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Yeah MacKenzie wasn’t too bad. He at least voiced his main fear as just that – a fear – rather than trying to say it would definitely become the case. And as you say, he came off as though he would be open to a reasonable argument to the contrary.
That woman on the other hand was despicable (though I hope Jimbo is being ironic..!). Loudly asserted that games “were addictive” without any nuance or more importantly evidence, and pretty much just tapped into the crowd’s tabloid-and-shows-like-this-generated preconceptions. To which there’s a certain bizarre and depressingly ironic circularity.
Tim did admirably, and I hope there were at least some viewers who would have listened to what he said. Nobody successfully disputed any of the points he was making, particularly the main one: children should not be playing adult rated video games, and shops comply with the laws in place which ensure this is the case. It renders pretty much moot the talk about the effect on children.
I would have liked him to have pushed harder against the idea that (if this is indeed what any of them were saying? They may have been only referring to children) adults and indeed people in general somehow can’t separate fantasy from reality. True, games are interactive (thus engaging), but this interaction still only amounts to twiddling your thumbs, and this still doesn’t mean people will unthinkingly start mimicking them, zombie-like.
Final point: anyone else find it interesting that while Time addressed Alan and the other panelists when he was speaking, the other two, especially the woman, spoke to the audience. She was basically raising her arm to them. See my previous point about tapping into their preconceptions.
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A bit more reasonable apart from the bit where he made the absurd request for proof that society wouldn’t go to pot in twenty years.
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@KG:
MacKenzie hasn’t got a great record when it comes to misrepresenting horror for his own personal ends, mind.
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Yeah before we all start making bedfellows with MacKenzie, this is the guy that came up with the story of Liverpool fans pissing on and robbing dead fellow fans at Hillsborough. Then he apologised and retracted the claim, then he unapologised and restated it. An absolute heinous cunt. I’ve no idea why he’s allowed on tv – I’d like to see someone express similar views about the 7/7 or 9/11 victims and still have any career.
In regard to the actual show, this entire discussion is entirely pointless. Games are big business now, thus even the Daily Mail and its video arm The Alan Titchmarsh Show can’t touch them. Politicians get plenty of opportunity for knee jerk responses to games whenever a young person does something unfortunate and the Mail wheels out the virtual straw man to project blame on. Unlike in most other cases however, politicians have done very little, because games are a huge industry now. They’ll happily legislate against any adult that happens to have contact with a child, because no CEO will have a problem with it. Games though are untouchable.
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I was linked to this by some of the RPS chatroom crew and only got halfway through before wisely deciding I would stop.
I’d just replaced my keyboard, y’see.
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I didn’t even get that far in. About 10 seconds and then I just knew it would annoy me.
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Yes, I couldn’t see it in its entirety myself either, when it was linked on the Observer (or Sunday Papers, can’t remember) comments here on RPS. That women was making me go red eyed.
Don’t see the point of putting up a complaint. It will only aggravate the thing, giving this seems like those typical morning/afternoon shows for lonely house wives and the elderly.
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Got as far as the vile woman making an ignorant point and receiving applause for her effort, before shaking my head in disdain and turning off.
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I suppose there are benefits to not being a native english speaker, and going directly for the soundbite at 6:16
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I was sort of waiting for the audience to rise up as an angry mob with pitchforks and flaming torches whenever Tim was speaking.
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I was cringing, constantly worried they would begin to jeer him like they cheered the others. That would have been disgusting.
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Funny this came up; I had the show on and changed the channel quick when the mention of upcoming stuff said about a games discussion, as experience (along with the use of charged words like “corrupting” in the preview) gave me a big hunch it would be some crap like this and I see I was right.
Oh well, just another show to add to the “don’t even have it on as background noise” list; like I did with Richard and Judy when they had an equally disgustingly biased lynching.
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Wot I sent :D
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I have just seen a clip of ‘the alan titchmarsh show’ where the topic of videogame violence was discussed. It is telling that the only coverage mainstream media will give to the videogame baftas is to decry all gamers as violent kids with low self esteem and suffering from depression. This is truly tragic.
It seemed that the discussion was carried out more as a lynching of the industry and an attempt to whip up the audience into an anti-games rant than any serious attempt to actually cover the topic.
I run a UK video games company. I contribute to UK taxes, I do not make violent video games. My games have been used to teach the values of maintaining relationships to autistic children, and to teach politics at school and college level. The only comment that I can applaud on the show was the admission that the average video gamer is in their thirties, something which flew straight over the head of your presenter who seemed to think all games are played just by children, and that you ‘watch’ rather than play them.
Alan titchmarsh has never been Jon Snow or Jeremy paxman, but his wafer thin grasp of the issue he was discussing just shows him to be more in the intellectual league of the Jeremy Kyle show. Please do not insult the intelligence of your ever-dwindling audience (many of which will be playing games rather than passively absorbing this entertainment any more) by getting alan to reach above his level. He failed.
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Don’t worry people, in ten years time only idiots will still be watching TV. The rest of us will be playing games :D
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Fantastic. nicely put.
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I don’t often login to comment, but after reading that you’d made a game for autistic children (Kudos 2, I presume?) I just had to reply and commend you for doing so. My sister is autistic, and the only game she plays is The Sims. I’ll be sending her the link to your site, Kudos 2 in particular, and see what she thinks of it.
Thanks
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Cliff, do you think there’d be any problem with submitting (an edited) copy of your comments to ITV at all? I’m rubbish at writing letters and I think a standard copy and paste jobby would be ideal. (I’d naturally leave out references to running a games company, fr’instance!)
H
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Between this and GSB I quite like you.
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Facetiously, I don’t think I’d trust Titchmarsh in any discussion of games unless Viva Pinata is involved.
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What about Plants vs Zombies?
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Harvest Moon?
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Decking with Tommy Walsh 98?
Charlie Dimmock’s water feature (a hentai tribut to Groundforce)?
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Hello.
That programe really was the wrong place for a debate such as that. Tim being the only one with any knowledge on the subject on a programe with 3 old people who clearly have no idea baring the “bait” lines they hear on radio, see on TV or right-wing newspaper.
Though I don’t think Tim said anything wrong and in 10 years time his view will be vindicated. Parental control and a good moral code ftw, non-interest in your childrens activities ftl.
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I stopped watching after the chick started talking. Her first sentence just made my stomach turn.
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Damn those wargame videos. I got about halfway through before I had to turn it off or I’d throw my laptop across the room. Lot of respect for Tim Ingham for standing his ground though.
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Gosh, I’m SO glad that was a nice, balanced debate. Well done to Tim – he was a trooper. I could not have held my cool for that long…and I’m not even speaking as a war gamer myself. That clip just made me SO angry.
“I’m categorically against violence as entertainment” <—oh, yeah? Well, we'd better burn most of the literary canon and throw the bible in while we're at it.
*sigh*
frustration.
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Don’t get angry Emma – these people are just another dying breed, a relic of a different generation when games were a strange and geeky fringe hobby to be feared and misunderstood.
Now it’s an industry of billions of dollars a year with people of all ages and from all walks of life playing games regularly, on everything from their Sky boxes to Facebook, their iPhones, handhelds, consoles and PCs…
Quite simply, times have changed. This bunch of fear mongering biased idiots just haven’t adapted to it, and are trying to get a rise from ITV’s 6 remaining viewers to vindicate their own outdated and ill-informed perspectives.
Their loss, our indifference. :)
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SO true ^_^
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Bravo to Six Axis for articulating gamers feelings without turning into a raging imbecile (which is pretty much what happened to me when I watched this). Of course Tim Ingham should now get a medal for not just walking out of the studio, and also he has balls of steel for not fleeing when the audience became a more menacing mob.
I gotta say one thing I notice about ‘gaming’ sections on TV shows is how the presenter reads out game titles. Seriously listen to Titchmarsh as he reads the titles, I know he may be trying to emphasise the violent names but it comes off like he’s reading a completely foreign language. After that you can tell how this segment is going to play out.
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The way he read “Left for Dead 2″ made it sound like a game about beating people up and leaving them to die in the streets.
Which is mostly true, really.
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Yes except backwards. People die in the streets, then you beat them up or shoot them.
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Zombies are people too.
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Heliocentric:
Zombies are people too.
—
And so.. the meme has run full circle and is appropriate again.
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Also: “Call of Duty 2: Modern Warfare”. Though even one of the people reading out the awards at the BAFTAs made the same error.
Speaking of which, did you also like the eyebrow-raised, mocking tone with which he announced the existence of a BAFTA awards for – gasp – video games?
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I’m saddened to say that I expected exactly that. That woman is stupid. Tim Ingham is lovely. MacKenzie looks like a nice chap, I agree about the Bulger mistake.
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The audience there makes me shudder. I guess for morons like these to exist there must be an audience, but I suppose I had forgotten quite how insular gaming can be. Booing someone for quoting a survey is quite impressively moronic though.
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the audience is people free during the daytime and with no desire to do anything more fulfilling than watch alan tichmarsh talking.
They are not the cultural or intellectual elite :D
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Another example of the wonders of the mid-afternoon audience is Jeremy Vines’s show on Radio 2. What was the phrase? “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.” Yep, that’s pretty accurate.
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What about things like Macharium, Osmos, everything that popcap make.!!11!!!!1
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I’m so angry that my hands are shaking as I type this.
I feel so sorry for Tim Ingham; it’s like you can feel the hatred of everyone in the room turn towards him when he opens his mouth.
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Poor Tim. Spoke with logic and reason, fairly and politely. All upon deaf ears. Alan’s fluffing of the fact that DVDs are just as easy for people to watch at home as games are to play is astounding.
The entire video made me want to scream. Not that it matters, as the target audience of that show are not a generation of gamers. All it will take is time really. By the time I have grandkids, everyone in power will have been raised in a time where games are commonplace.
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@JamesOf83:
Yeah, progress is old people dying. Complain if it makes you feel better, but it won’t change anybody’s mind.
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Kelvin McKenzie, the man who accused Liverpool fans of Pick Pocketing dead Hilborough victims, claimed that Liverpool fans urinated on the police on the pitch and beat up a police man trying to revive a fan, trying to take the moral high ground about video games?
Give me a break.
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+1
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I got to the bit where the blonde bint started spouting and had to stop watching. This is a blatant attack on games, gaming and gamers, by the telvision industry. Who (rightly) feel that they are losing viewers to gaming and can see no other way to compete.
Sad. Very sad.
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That being said, I wouldn’t blame Alan Tichmarsh for this. He’s just a bloody gardener and not even a journalist. There was an editorial agenda behind this and I’m willing to be t it cam from the very top.
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Excellent effort by Tim
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If there’s anything I took out of this, it’s that Tim Ingham fucking rocks.
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Why bother to complain? They know their audience, clearly (they’ve packed a studio full of folks who applause on cue), and it’s not us. I’m not saying that you should never complain, but this is like asking FOXNews (sorry, US here) to provide more balanced discussion on the healthcare debate.
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Fun fact: NewsCorp are a big (the biggest? Can’t find out for certain) stakeholder in ITV, the broadcaster of this programme.
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As I understand it (though I may be wrong) Newscorp are the largest stakeholder, but not a majority stakeholder.
Although I may be thinking of ITN.
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People are always scared of any powerful social and artistic forces which arise in a culture.
The process is this: “Here is something new and powerful ==> I feel scared ==> This must be VERY wrong, because I feel scared ==> The people I care about might be hurt by this very wrong thing ==> I care most about my children”
Great little article illustrating the point with loads of examples: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.04/war.html
This happened with pinball as well: I’ve always been amused by that! The New York Mayor, Fiorello La Guardia, who enacted a pinball ban in the 1940′s wrote that the machines robbed the “pockets of school children in the form of nickels and dimes given them as lunch money”.
In general, this is such a known phenomenon that I’m fairly happy to just ignore it. Expecting sane debate from Alan Titchmarsh is like expecting astute critical commentary from Loose Women. The audience doesn’t WANT that: listen to them applaud when that ludicrous woman starts up her drivel. They want to have their preconceptions reaffirmed, because old people don’t have the mental energy to change their opinions easily.
The prevailing wind *is* changing for games, though. A few years ago, I would tell people that I was in a small company which made games, and they would say, “Oh, so you’re the ones corrupting our children then? Ho ho.” Now they’re much more likely to tell me about some iPhone game they like, or tell me that they play Wii games with their kids, or that they remember playing such-and-such a game when they were young.
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This made me sad, but then I saw this: http://botherer.org/2010/03/21/the-merton-phenomenon/
and suddenly everything seemed alright again.
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I love the Ben Folds Merton tribute. It really is a thing of wonder.
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I’m NOT saying Alan Titchmarsh should be dragged out of his house at 2 in the morning and flogged with car aerials till pulpy.
but i will say it would make better television than the torrent of shit i just glimpsed.
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Having said all that, I am now going to send a complaint, because we should at least TRY to refute this kind of stuff.
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I cannot wait for the currently older generations to die and get the fuck out of the way.
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I think you’d think differently if you were one of the older generation. And I’m sure not all of the older generation share the views expressed in the video. Although, on the other hand, maybe a Logan’s Run type society where you were offed once you reached thirty, wouldn’t be all bad? ;)
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Oh they’re not all bad. One of my favourite games-related anecdotes is some years ago from when I was playing Timesplitters 2 with my grandfather in the room. I was trying to get a bonus objective for draining all the whiskey barrels in the Chicago level, but was flummoxed when I shot one and the game didn’t acknowledge it.
My grandfather, silent until then, pointed out that I hadn’t shot it at the bottom, so it couldn’t have fully drained. That worked.
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We should ban Rock n Roll while we are at it …. oh …
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Tim’s a bit of a hero for being brave enough to put himself up against that level of short-sighted head-in-the-sand level of debate. He must have known what he was walking into.
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I want to shoot that woman in the face. With everything that videogames have tought me in the past 20 odd years, I of course feel this to be a socially acceptable method for conveying my opinions.
It may indeed be the only way I know how.
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*explodes*
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Unlike those old farts, our generation have grown up playing video games. We are now at the age that a lot of us are becoming parents. The old farts will disappear into old peoples homes where such horror’s as Wii-More wielding children are kept far away. New parents will sit with their children and play Mario and when said children express a desire to kill their online chums through the medium of first person shooter games we will tell the children what our old farty parents told us when we expressed a desire to watch horror films late at night. “Wait till your older, youngling.” And thus, the problem will sort itself out.
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Sith Axis would be an awesome name for a band.
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Saw this when a commenter posted it in The Sunday Papers comments section. I really can’t bring myself to watch again.
Have to admit, I missed the Bulger slip up (probably because it would have been before my time/when I was very young and I didn’t know the details – although, someone mentioning connections to Child’s Play does jog a memory,) but I did think Mckenzie was at least willing to have some form of debate, rather than
Peasgood’s obvious decision to go on the programme and stick to the opinion she already held on something she knew nothing about. When she started quoting random studies that supposedly showed links between violence in children and games I was getting pissed off, but when the audience openly booed Tim for mentioning a report that was very well documented and conducted by someone well respected I was really fuming.
Titchmarsh’s completely bizarre comment that it was much harder to control what kids played in the home than what they went to see in the cinema was just laughably baffling – as was him completely ignoring the existence of DVDs, which would have refuted the point even if it had of made any sense in the first place.
In fact, I don’t think this being broadcast was as bad as people make out. We should be writing to congratulate ITV for showing the public this footage. Who in their right mind would side with the closed-minded people here, who had done zero research and made completely ludicrous statements? Who could walk away from seeing that video and not be on the side of the polite, well articulated gaming expert, instead of the baying mob and the woman who shouted completely opinionated comments?
Tim took a bullet for us here and showed everyone what those that speak out against gaming are really like.
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“Who in their right mind would side with the closed-minded people here,”
The people that read the Daily Mail and Daily Express and that is a lot of imbeciles. Hate brings more people together than love and kindness ever has. Probably something to do with the embrace of Schadenfreude as an acceptable religious philosophy.
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@Vandelay @Gav
Brooker seems appropriate here.
Wait, Brooker seems appropriate everywhere.
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@Gav
I was actually being a bit facetious. Of course there are people that would believe the crap being spouted by Peasgood, but hopefully the numbers are outweighed by those that can see how ridiculous they all looked when they started up the lynching crew.
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Old dude: “I am not a wargamer … I rejected it quite early in life.”
Wha?
Also, I’m not familiar with racism being a major problem in video games. Where did Blondie get that from?
Violent, depressed people liking video games (shocker!) and video games causing violence and depression are not the same thing. Tim should have made that point before mentioning the other study which actually looked at causation.
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That really is absolutely appauling programming. Fair play to Tim for keeping calm while sitting on the drumhead.
While I might initially agree with Kieron that benefit of some manner of doubt might be given to Kelvin on the subject of the Bulger murder, it is indefenceable that it was not immediately corrected.
Julie Peacegood quoting that awful American study which showed NO causal links at all is shocking and … kudos again to Tim for not breaking into open laughter, the jeering from the audience when he mentions the Byron study is just… sorry, are we actually watching a pantomime?
Titchmarsh’s assumption that no-one keeps movies in any format in the home is just embarrassing.
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Aaah yes. This is one of the reasons I stopped watching TV a long time ago. Thanks for reminding me ;)
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Problem with shows like this is that the audience have already made up their mind as to their stance on the issue being discussed.
Tim puts over absolutely valid points and argues them well, yet is arguing against what is basically an avatar of the audience on stage spouting baseless claims and her own opinions.
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I want to give Tim Ingham a hug, he sure needs one after that.
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It appears VH1 is using a slightly different format for Remember the 90′s.
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Why is it always like that? The most idiotic people get to voice their stupid preconceptions to the world… It’s the same in Finland too concerning the gaming. Alan should’ve stayed with his gardens. I liked him doing his gardens talk. I should’ve known he’d participate this sort of thing too.
Well, as we all know, Elvis worshipped Satan and gaming is full of violence that explains ALL the problems you’ve got there. NOT.
I’m so angry I could eat my sofa.
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I’d prefer not to watch it…maybe later. Did they actually pulled some CONCLUSIVE social psychology study up their arses or did they just connect various inconclusive studies and urban myths while ignoring the studies saying otherwise? And why do I feel like I’m asking a rhetorical question? :)))
And I must say, KG, I really loved your article about violence in PCG around the year 2000…best opening paragraph in an article about violence in games ever and all.. And splendid pictures too.
Well, back to the analysis of Mrs. Dalloway…off I go
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Frankie: My mind’s lost that completely. What was my rough take?
KG
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The opening was about two friends. They were both healthy boys and all…but then one of them started playing videogames (ATARI, my rough guess?). As the time carried on, they got separated and one of them started using drugs, getting into brawls and some other criminal activities, p’haps. And then we learn the one playing videogames was you. A marvelous climax. And psychological, too.
-F
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Just sent an email of complaint to ITV, we’ll see what I get back. Regarding the selling of media to minors, Bill Harris has a very interesting post here: http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2009/12/ftc.html. In short, in the US less mature-rated games are sold to minors than 18-rated videos, 20% of test shoppers as opposed to 54%.
Where are the talk show segments decrying the violent and sexualised films such as Twilight?
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Given that this nonsense went out on The Alan Titchmarsh Show and not Newsnight does it really matter?
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politicians pander to the tchtmash crowd, not the newsnight crowd.
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@Matty: Past game coverage on Newsnight Review is often largely disparaging. They’re both a symptom of the well entrenched prejudice that’s existed for ages, and shows no real sign of disappearing any time soon. Basically we need to wait for the old to die off, and just hold the fort until then.
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Ever see Paxman discussing the original GTA with one of the DMA guys? (I think it was one of them anyway..).
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@Garg. But the intellectual press, in part, are starting to engage with gaming as a ‘legitimate’ art. See Lanchester’s article in The London Review of Books:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/john-lanchester/is-it-art
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Yeah, Paxman’s interview with the designers of GTA back in the day was pretty horrendous.
(going by memory)
Paxman: “Wait, are you telling me that adults actually play these games?”
DMA Guy: (genuinely bewildered) “Well, games are very expensive and there’s an 18 sticker on the front, so yeah, they do.”
Not Newsnight’s finest hour.
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How about that.
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Forgot to add:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0419947/
I would kill a newborn child for a preview button.
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Am I the only one who sees the resemblence between him an Nick Griffin?
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As a viewing experience, this is harrowing. I am harrowed. Poor Tim deserves a hug and a hot mug of cocoa. With marshmallows.
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I agree. He deserves to get a medal for taking an unpopular stand.
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Also, why do those cunts get to interrupt Tim, while he can’t interrupt these fucking nazis?
MY GOD I’M RAGING SO HARD
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Who wants to play “SHOUT AT THE TELEVISION CAMERA!”?
YOU SIR, ARE A WINNER!
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I win every time, man.
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I’m not great at the whole letter writing thing. Ah well. This whole thing depresses me anyway. I thought Tim did pretty damn well.
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Dear ITV,
Congratulations on producing a talk show where the host can display absolutely no knowledge of the subject he is discussing and yet receive rounds of cheering and applause from the the audience. I’m assuming you had some form of mind control device in place, lest my faith in humanity sink a notch further (canceling the rise brought about by Obama’s healthcare plan getting through).
I’m doubtful that outlining my views on the industry would make the smallest difference to Alan’s show, but I would request that if Alan is going to conduct a discussion topic unrelated to horticulture, he should at least check his guests when they begin spout sensationalist claims as facts.
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That made me angry. Games dont make you angry people whom talk rubbish about games do. Ban them!
That’s the most nonsense I’ve heard in ages, literally just shit made up from their heads, and spat out, and cheered by the audience.
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A total disgrace. The most encouraging thing you can say about it is that it looked quite so bizarre and out of date, but then I have actually ever played a video game.
Have complained to ITV. Politely :)
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You know what would have been awesome?
If Tim, in the middle of that, for a second, looked towards the camera lens and said, “So Charlie Brooker, what’s your take on this?….. Alright then, fair enough”
Because chances are it’s bound to be covered by Charlie Brooker, (even if by self-fulfilling prophecy), and would make for some fun fourth wall breaking meta snark.
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After my rage subsided I did wonder if Charlie Brooker would respond, but then decided that it’d be more awesome to see Harry Hill make fun of this segment. I can imagine Harry Hill explaining to Titchmarsh what a DVD is, that no Alan DVD’s are not for growing they are for watching.
That said I do hope Brooker writes a piece on this or references at some point, it does incapsulate the problem gamers have in modern media. We so need Gameswipe the series just to help cast away with this tired old view of gamers and games.
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What is really scary is that Julie Peasgood has written a book of sex advice. What do you think the chances of it being well researched, open minded and non-judgemental are?
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Nowhere near as good as the chances of it being a comprehensive run down of S&M practices for the modern couple.
“Violence for entertainment is wrong, YOU DIRTY BOY”
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I hope that these murder trainers are banned such as Call of Modern Warfare and Grand Thift Auto, I enjoy much more story driven games such as Earthbound and Jewel Quest. I heard on the news that the Columbine shooters used Call of Modern Warfare to train to use guns! I enjoy wholesome games for the family not games that train kids to kill!
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The last paragraph didn’t do The Sixth Axis any favours, I don’t think. Telling someone who you are trying to get to agree with you that their medium is moribund isn’t the smartest trick in the book.
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That was an extremly biased audience and panel, I feel sorry for Tim I hope he got drunk to wash away the memories of this.
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Tim has balls of steel.
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Pure garbage, typical narrow minded views from aging technophobes.
This type of show just shows the inherit backwardness of the traditional media.
In a year where online advertising spend has toppled traditional, to hear this rubbish.
Lets hope in 10 years time we are watching live games on our PCs in our living rooms, rather than this drivel on the Telescreen.
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I really enjoyed that video. Tim Ingham defended his views brilliantly, he was calm and measured, citing hard facts with every statement.
His opponents did nothing but sprout buzzwords they’d glimpsed at off the teleprompter, showing either an inability or no will for reasoning.
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Tim was great, but I’d have been more optimistic if the audience had actually listened to the argument rather than treating it as a 5-minute Hate
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I couldn’t watch more than 10 seconds of this. Just annoyed me too much.
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ITV have a long and glorious history of pandering to the lowest common denominator. Their entire business and programming strategy is based around it nowadays. They’ve spent the last five years culling any decent original programming (and indeed the people who make them) in favour of Jeremy Kyle etc while they flounder around trying to work out how to keep making in the face of opposition who don’t care (Sky, C4 etc) or don’t have to(The Beeb). You’d almost feel sorry for them if they weren’t such a colossal bunch of fuckwits.
A balanced and reasonable discussion of gaming is not something that you’re likely to get from them because having people get angry makes for ‘better telly’ and therefore more ad revenue. That said, feel free to bombard the duty office will emails, because they do record and publish all the comments they receive.
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I say we invade Alan Tichmarsh’s forums and post reasonable and well though out reasons why we feel insulted, misrepresented and marginalised by his television show.
Someone has already started: http://www.alantitchmarsh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1509
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FANNY!
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The whole thing was just a a shameful display of outdated stereotyping and ignorance-fueled prejudice. What really gets me is how Tim was asked to justify playing violent videogames as if he was some sort of deviant for doing so. In the comments I’ve seen on this story around the internet, many gamers seem to feel the need to justify their hobby. We really shouldn’t, and don’t, have to do this.
I think the problem is that many non-gamers do not realize that there is quite a large disconnect between committing a violent act in a virtual world and committing a comparable act in the real world. I enjoy many violent games, but when shooting virtual guys in Fallout 3, I’ve never mentally connected that to shooting real people. Similarly, when condemning the Wookies to slavery in KOTOR, I didn’t mentally connect it to enslaving a race of hirsute sentients in real life. So basically, it’s not real. Why would it affect what I do in the real world?
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Well, i didn’t think 2 minutes were enough to whatever topic, but this video certainly proved me wrong!
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Big shout out to Tim for putting himself forward before the lynch mob and keeping his head.
You have to realise, though, that if the programme doesn’t research this at all and just invites a few talking heads in to bark loudly, then think of how much other disinformation the show has probably put out. And ilk like it. It’s the reason I barely watch any TV outside of fiction these days – the FOX news template. Sorry, I guess I undermined my own argument, FOX news should probably be included in the fiction category. My bad.
I think someone should tell Alan that there’s a PROVEN link (and I’m SHOUTING here) between using garden shears and DIGITAL AMPUTATIONS. More people lose their digits during shear mishaps that they would IF SHEARS WERE BANNED. I just abhor accidental violence like this. It’s common decency.
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Open minded Sex Advice? Surely I won’t be the first person to point out that her name is Peasgood..
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The point about torture porn is a good one. I have seen a lot of horror movies and I find those kind of films disturbing, uneeded and don’t watch them.
Why then is there a ride at Alton Towers called “Saw”, based on the film? Because according to Alan and the rest of middle England, no-one under 18 will have seen Saw, Hostel or any other of the movies. Are you telling me they built the ride excluding the age range of 13 to 18, marketing it at adults only? No chance. They knew most teenagers had seen it “illegally” so to speak.
Everyone knows teenagers watch movies far worse than any video game. Yet they are seen as more acceptable.
These are the facts – 90% of the population will never appreciate well written games or films, so the entertainment industry will keep turning out the same shallow pap for the mainstream. There will always be good product outside of this, but at the end of the day – home sapiens likes dumb sex and dumb violence, we gotta deal with it.
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Sorry its Thorpe Park, and I meant “homo sapiens”. Anyway you get it.
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Bizarre, I actually think the Saw films(seen 1-3 and 6, missed 4-5) are underrated and dismissing them as ‘torture porn’ misses the point of them(aside from the obvious studio incentive ‘make money’).
I could almost swear that the tabloid fuss over Saw(and with each iteration their reviewers admit the earlier ones were actually good) was an attempt to *make* the kids try harder to see it because Jigsaw’s misanthropy is exactly that of those tabloids: people are complacent, people don’t care, they are blind to the suffering of others and their own decadence. Most of Jigsaw’s targets are the tabloids targets.
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Titchmarsh looks so sad in this picture.
What’s bugging you, Alan?
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“The thing is I never wanted to be a talk show presenter doing biased pieces just for ratings. I wanted to be . . . a lumberjack!”
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“The thing is I never wanted to be a talk show presenter doing biased pieces just for ratings. I wanted to be . . . a pokemon trainer!”
I sense a meme starting.
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“…Leaping from ill-informed opinion to ill-informed opinion, as they make their way down the might tubes of the interwebs!”
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I like to think that the frost had his dahlias.
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@ Lilliput King:
He’s just got one of those melty faces that always looks sad. Like a St. Bernard.
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The Alan Titchmarsh show is basically part of the media machine determined to drum into its audience the values of a dull world. It revels in encouraging people to be mediocre, to be conformist, to accept a set of wordly values that reinforces catagorical disinterest in engaging radical ideas. It’s thoroughly designed to convince its audience to be outraged at even the slightest bit of controversy. Anything contrary to its values is to be sidelined.
The thing is, gaming is becoming a generational mainstream. The Titchmarsh show is old media, for an older generation not brought up on a medium focused on the computer screen, instead a TV one. It’s a fundamental conflict between two generation’s values. They’ll never meet. Never agree. But they’ll die out, and the new media will take over – ready to brainwash us all over again unless we, the citizen’s of the world, keep control over our own media (though this is another debate.)
Point is, Titchmarsh is a dying breed.
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I got through it by imagining Tim’s achievements popping up at the bottom of the screen every so often. “Suffer the children ” , “Home Cinema ” “Not a wargamer ” and “Tsunami of future violence ”
That and a tank bursting through the wall at the end and mowing them down. DAKKADAKKADAKKA.*
/Corb
*well if they want to be right then they have to pay the price! Oh the irony.
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That Tim guy was splendid. He reacted quickly, delivered the right arguments and kept his cool all the way. We need more people like that representing us.
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Wouldnt be like Mckenzie to get something wrong. Ahem Sun Lies ( coverage) of Hillsborough when he was Editor. JUSTICE FOR THE 96
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Peasgood says she is “categorically against violence as entertainment” and yet has profited from it throughout her entire career. Beautifully feckless and brainless double-standard.
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Wot I sent:
Hello,
I recently saw online a clip of your “Alan Titchmarsh Show”, and the segment I saw was discussing the videogame BAFTAs, that were to take place later that night. It’s very concerning that, even when setting up the discussion based on a ceremony celebrating videogames, the programme stated that videogames were “corrupting our children” and are harmful to our nation’s youth. It’s upsetting, as a gamer, as someone who is passionate about this medium and who considers it as a legitimate form of media just ike television, books and films that my preferred form of entertainment is, as a whole, painted as violence-inducing, hateful and destructive.
This discussion, while commendable for being one of the rare videogame debates to feature someone who actually knows what they’re talking about, was an outright attack on the medium and something I cannot just sit down and allow. The guests ignorantly spouted their lies, stating such things as “[videogames] promote hatred, racism, sexism and promote violence”, and these kinds of lies are just the kind that I cannot stand. Has this woman ever played a videogame? I doubt so, and why you should invite her on as a guest to a videogame discussion is beyond me. The one person who knew what they were talking about, and had named sources to back up their points (unlike the vague “an american study” providing the other guests’ “facts”) was Tim Ingham, and you’re panellists, you’re audience, your host would not let him speak for more than a few seconds before being interrupted. Even as he was agreeing with the other panellists in that violent videogames should not be in the hands of children, he was being scoffed at and looked down upon in a way I find disgusting.
I find this sort of witch hunt and scapegoating unacceptable. I am disappointed this biased, igorant and hateful panel was ever aired and I hope that future videogame “debates” will at least include a balanced, reasonable panel. This production of blanket statements merely insults the intelligence of the millions upon millions of people who play videogames and are still reasonable, non-violent individuals, who support an ever-increasing and advancing industry. I am appaled that this was allowed to be broadcast.
Thank you for your time,
T-Bone (not actually, but you will never get my name!)
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So what you’re saying is that Julie Peasgood, in between episodes of Cash in the Attic and The Alan Titchmarsh Show, where she railed against violent videogames, was paid money for voice work on a 17-rated PS game Martian Gothic in 2000. Perhaps she should give it back and make a statement regretting doing that job.
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Why yes Alan, between your continued television career and Scribblenauts, I think I will be spawning a team of little cerial killers, and damned proud of them I shall be. Whats that Julia? A little off the top ? Certainly, just let me stave your skull in with this tetris block.
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I’m 15 and have been playing video games for years now, I played gta when I was around 9 or 10 and I have turned out fine, I am not violent and feel this is the most biased piece of crap I have ever seen. Yes kids shouldn’t be playing these games but with correct supervision then there should be no problem. I almost feel insulted by the whole thing.
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There is a hidden, unspoken assumption by the Mail/Sun/ITV types in this piece, which is that no parent need ever be responsible for anything their children do or see. That’s the only possible reason why they consistently ignored the point that children were not supposed to watch 15 or 18-rated games in the first place.
This is the same baying mob that wasn’t baying for the blood of Thomson’s or Venables’s parents. They want to create a world where none of us, ever, is in any way responsible for anything we or our children do. All problems in this brave mediaeval world are then resolved by declaring certain phenomena or people as “eviw” and getting out the pitchforks.
Which is probably why this conversation has been going on ever since the first Punch and Judy show hit the streets.
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He certainly defended his corner very well, clearly everyone else on the show was very uninformed. Watching stuff like this just makes me angry more than anything.
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@Jahkaivah: Brooker got wind of it – http://twitter.com/charltonbrooker/status/10894278386
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I still want to know how Peabody shouting out “I am against violence as entertainment!” counts as a response to Tim’s Point and why it’s worthy of applause.
Drivel, the entire lot of it, as usual an utter waste of space and time. The fact that the mention of the Byron report garnered a condescending sneer from the audience really just goes to show that they were utterly uninterested in hearing anything other than the lambasting of videogames.
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Summary of the clip:
“Won’t someone please think of the children!!!”
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Full marks to the CVG guy. Seriously, you made your point eloquently and justified them. You even gave an ACTUAL study for people to look at, as opposed to the woman on the show who didn’t and just plucked one out of the air.
I honestly want you to go on every show and fight our corner.
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I just couldn’t believe the audience reactions when I watched that this afternoon.
It was like they were being prompted into it.
Peasgood mentions some random study off the top of her head, and they all cheer.
Tim then counters with the Byron report facts, and they all groan.
Unbelievable.
Tim did a really great job to remain level headed, and still went on to offer real facts to counter their insane arguments.
Well, at least someone has had the sense to update Peasgood’s wiki page, pointing out her hypocrisy :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Peasgood
KG perchance?
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^This.
Also I find TV soaps mentally degrading and potentially dangerous for my common sense. Would somebody please think about us violent video gamers and forbid this kind of dreck that is aired day in and day out on TV and poisons our (and our children’s) minds?
But then again, I’m a reasonable person to accept that there is stuff in existence that other people enjoy that I do not. I’m tolerant enough to let them enjoy whatever they’re enjoying, despite being a violent video gamer.
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So on the one side, we’ve got a dude called Tim, that gives us a well informed perspective, comes up with some decent numbers and relates to other media types giving us a well thought out speech on the whole matter and he simply gets shitcanned for being reasonable.
On the other side we’ve got some overly dramatic blonde woman spouting random buzzwords, walking down the “oh won’t somebody thing about the children” route, flat out denying that violent video games aren’t meant for children in the first place and she gets applauded for being a rhetorical dimwit.
Would I expect something else from a TV show? Not really. Is that the reason why I don’t watch TV any more? Absolutely!
Ignore, continue anyway.
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Not quite. Regulatory bodies have a little more teeth here than they do in the US.
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Oh my God, this Mario Kart game teaches children to throw things at other cars whilst driving! It must be banned!
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I agree, talk about your blasts from the past.
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I don’t think we’ll be back in Ten years to discuss this. Alan Titchmarsh will be very Dead.
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Massive super mega-mad-props to Tim Ingham. Grace under fire, balanced reactions, sense of humour intact.
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That was pretty awful. There are games that I’ll find distasteful and going a bit further than I’d like a game to go.. but that has nothing to do with kids being exposed to games they shouldn’t get their grubby hands on anyway.
Moreso, if the host had been impartial and the woman at least had been.. well replaced by someone capable of being less aggravating and more reasonable it may not have been as frustrating to watch as it was.
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i tried very hard to keep a straight face while watching this… i failed after about 7 seconds. What a load of crap, i love the way everyone ignored the guy defending video games. The crowd were no more than sheep applauding that berk of a woman – alarmist muppets.
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Tim: “Videogames have exactly the same certificates…”
Alan: “But they’re at home.”
Ah, so the real problem is the result of diminished parental responsibility in a modern age so dominated by excessive State nannying.
If I were on the show, this is the point at which I would have asked Alan what kind of effect his collection of hardcore pornography was having on his children. Clearly he’s not to blame for leaving it lying around, the govt should ban it.
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As a parent that has censored his childs gaming, I think that this “interview” was discriminatory against a form of media that has taught my son literature, history, spelling, typing and many other lessons. Most of all the realities of war, especially regarding the ethics and politics behind for instance the world wars. It has also taught him a tactical perspective, much like a person playing chess or any other kind of recognised sport would hone their tactics and skills, he has learnt aspects which he can apply to other aspects of his life such as college work.
The interview was incredibly biased with two uninformed people effectively baiting the representative and demonising him in front of the audience. Merely mentioning two studies, one of which was a case study which are specifically known to analysers as lacking validity when generalised to populations was not a valid arguement. Furthermore both of these baiters could not answer any of the representatives points they merely repeated themselves as if trying to ignore his response.
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Alarmist “news” talk shows are misinforming and needlessly panicking our nation’s adults. To protect them, we clearly need to ban this kind of alarmist nonsense. Won’t someone please think of the adults?
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It is no wonder that Thatcher ruled as long as she did. Just think about it. How? Why? Yeap, it’s not a pretty sight.
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I resisted watching this for so long, simply because I find ignorance to be almost physically painful. It would have been just as meaningful if the program was about Tim making good points and the “host” and other “guests” poking him with long sticks and singing “lalala I can’t hear you!”.
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OK, let me share this with you… It is from Devils Dictionary and in this case (among the others) it tells the truth:
IDIOT, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. The Idiot’s activity is not confined to any special field of thought or action, but “pervades and regulates the whole.” He has the last word in everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the fashions and opinion of taste, dictates the limitations of speech and circumscribes conduct with a dead-line.
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I hate to stray waay waay off topic, and I know RPS is a Eurocentric website, but I wanted to lighten the tone here with some good news for Australian gamers (as if they haven’t heard).
South Australian Attorney-General Micheal Atkinson yesterday resigned from office.
For those of you not yet cheering, Mr Atkinson was the main blocker for the adoption of an R18+ rating for video games in our great southern land, and the reason games such as Left for Dead 2, Fallout 3, and Risen have been censored or outright banned for sale here.
Of course, there is no guarantee that R18+ will be adopted, but a public input request on the subject last year generated the most interest any such request have ever had, so it’s looking good.
Back on topic, Alan Titschmarch truly lives up to the “Tit” in his name.
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Awaiting pertinent comment by Yahtzee in his next Zero Punctuation…
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Hmm.
Not exactly a very fair argument. one poor guy who actually knows what he’s on about, a guy who lives in the garden, and 2 people who have probably never sat on a computer in their lives. Admittedly COD: Modern warfare is a bit much for me, but Its not for kids anyway even if it did provoke violent behaviour. which it doesn’t. This is the same kind of stupidity that was seen when the telly was invented.
GAH!
(shakes head in dispair)
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The C&VG stuff about Julie Peasgood’s voice work on a game ten years ago is an example of a tu quoque ad hominem fallacy, and totally unhelpful. If you’re going to criticise her, criticise her for the idiotic things she said.
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I’m not sure calling someone out on being a god damn hypocrite is any kind of fallacy.
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@ Wednesday:
It’s not possible that her views could change in the ten years since she worked on that game? It’s not possible that her work on the game might even have informed her views about video games?
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He’s right. It doesn’t actually refute anything she’s saying, and besides that the voice acting job was long enough ago that a reasonable person might have changed their views by now. Which is not to say that she’s a reasonable person, the point is that it is a form of ad hominem and serves only to weaken one’s argument. It might be a little different if she’d done that voice acting job, say, last month.
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I’m not sure we should get hung up on this “ad homien” phrase just because its fancy Latin. We’re not just screaming “poo face” at her to make her shut up.
We naturally assume a link between action and belief, to genuinely hold a beleif is to act. accordingly.This Martian Gothic game is hardly the sole mark in her history wher violence is concerned, as many have pointed out with the Bill and Brookside.
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It’s still an attack on her personal character rather than the points she’s trying to make. That can be appropriate if she’s recently contradicted her apparent belief, for example if she did that voice acting job yesterday. Even then, if you have a counterargument based on facts, you’re better off avoiding the shot at her personally in favor of sticking to the actual facts of the case. Just bringing up one voice acting job she did ten years ago is already going to undermine your case because it makes you look desperate. It creates the sense that you don’t have a serious counterargument, because if you did you wouldn’t resort to such a minor and long-ago event to try to counter her. It’d be like me saying trans fats are bad for you, and you countering that since I worked in a fast food restaurant 14 years ago that I must be a hypocrite. It just doesn’t hold up to serious, calm scrutiny.
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It still strikes at her as an “authority” on the issue. If you’ll forgive the ruductio ad hitlerum(while we’re on the latin), if Hitler said “anti-semitism is wrong”, he certainly wouldn’t be incorrect, but we’d have to take pause to consider his credentials as an authority on the subject.
So, what I’m saying, is that Julie Peasgood is a bad as Hitler.
Yes, yes…
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WAR-GAME-VIDEOS
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Aaaargh. Infuriating cod debate by people who want to blame something. And something “cool”.
Infuriating (repeat!) to the point I cast aside my World of Goo, Tales of Monkey Island portfolio and blew the dust off Far Cry 2 so that I could cause some chaos for an hour…
Shot a lot of people and felt better. I’m a bit confused why… but they made me do it….
Back to the mysterious sign painter…
If I ever meet Tim Ingham I shall buy him a pint.
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Nice letter. I loved it. Be careful they don’t use certain quotes of it next time out of context if they decide to show it. I don’t see anything that stands out but, ya know.
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I agree with the 1 out of 5 stars for the video.
Did they just say violent movies are more suitable for kids than violent games. At least the last speaker knows what he is saying about games needing more sophistication.
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It certainly makes a change, it used to be that parents were convinced that an 18 rating on a videogame “isn’t as bad as those nasty films, is it?” when buying inappropriate games for their children.
I think Tom chick’s piece on MW2 even points out that parents left their children outside when they went in to purchase the game, which would be for those children.
There is an American called The View, which features Whoopi Goldberg, that was mentioned on WoW radio a while back because someone had pointed out that Wiifit had called her child obese, and that this was in fact a bad thing. Goldberg even rolled out the old “I don’t think people who make thses games realise that children get hold of them”.
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftN1mDJkALY
Two problems with that. One, This is Nintendo. The Disney of the gaming industry. They knew the game would be played by children.
Two, I was under the impression that age classification schemes like the esrb and PEGI are made possible with the full co operation of the gaming industry – a quick check shows a large number of big name publishers are members of the ISFE. How can you conclude that the game industry, which is trying very hard to ensure that children do not get hold of material that is unsuitable, of being unaware of the problem?
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Imagine it said “American show” and “these” in the respective error places, thanks.
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From the clip’s first minute:
“…An industry worth billions, but recently it’s come under fire due to the violent nature of some of its content…”
I do find it cute how they think they’re so hip and topical with their reporting, as if the world is just now waking up to the dangers of videogames and they’re there, coming in live from the cutting edge. Like this hasn’t been hashed and rehashed over twenty years ago.
Tim held up exceptionally well, I thought. He knew his stuff and stayed on message. Kudos. Also I don’t know that McKenzie fellow, but he does seem reasonable, though misinformed. The host is utterly bland and easily ignored (I’m not familiar with British non-scripted TV, aside from Charlie Brooker).
The creature in the middle chair does not display any redeeming qualities, however.
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I hear the Rock and Roll is also detrimental to todays youth. When will the government do something about this social disease? Also, whistling outside of chruches, that’s bang out of order.
I can’t imagine anyone under 35 watching this wasn’t howling with laughte,r as they watched this bunch of hopeless cases flailing against the present, never mind the future.
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comment of the week from the you tube comments:
“I remember watching this and wanting to punch that stupid bitch in the ovaries. I am 20, have been playing games since I was 6 and am a well developed, sensitive individual.”
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Yeah, the YouTube comments don’t really help very much.
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I’ll repost something I said the other day when this came up in the Sunday Papers comments:
I do think Tim was a little disingenuous when he said the thrill from violence in games was in the storytelling. To be fair, that may be true for him, but for me and I think a lot of other players of those type of games the thrill is in the violence itself. When I play Mount & Blade I play it because I can lance people in the face. The point is that nobody is hurt from that expression of violence, and there is no evidence that playing those kinds of games will make me more violent in the real world.
I can see why he said it given the audience and the people he was debating with. It probably wasn’t the right forum for getting into the debate about ascribing moral value to things that are actually morally neutral.
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And the Government want to tear down the BBC to make way for more stuff like this! When you watch this and then watch that episode of Charlie Brooker’s Gameswipe that he did for the BBC you wouldn’t think they were from the same decade…
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I know I’m a little late, but can someone draw a map for us for’ners on who these people are? Only one seems to have an actual job. Tim, editor of C&VG aaaand… some randoms who are a’gin it.
Are the other two well known media concern trolls or something?
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@ Muzman:
The host is Alan Titchmarsh, a gardener who is better known for his horticultural programmes. The woman is Julie Peasgood, an actress, writer and ‘sexpert’. She’s one of those faces the turns up on daytime talky shows a lot.
The other man is Kelvin MacKenzie, the former editor of a low-brow tabloid called The Sun. He’s known for some pretty tasteless headlines and stories. When the Argentinian ship ARA General Belgrano was sunk by the Royal Navy during the Falklands War he chose to run with the headline “Gotcha”. Hundreds of people had lost their lives.
In The Sun’s coverage of the Hillsborough disaster, a crush which happened at a football match in which 96 people died and hundreds were injured, they made totally unfounded and pretty vile allegations about the fans who were present.
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Thanks Stevo.
Wow, MacKenzie was editor of The Sun at the time of Hillsbrough? And he’s any sort of judge on moral character issues? At least he didn’t jump in the the concerned citizen garbage like whatsername. But Aye Yie Yie.
(maybe this is all in that Six Axis article and I should read it more closely)
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I feel the best way to counter the argument that videogames are causing us to be depressed and violent is to simply continue to be happy and pacifist. To that end, I am happy that UK Amazon are doing the CE edition of Machinarium for about the same price as the download from their site.
This makes me happy, and I didn’t have to hit anyone to get there. Result for common sense, I am sure you’ll agree.
Funny that someone mentioned Charlie Brooker, I would have found it interesting to see him on the show – not that I am saying Tim Ingham wasn’t dashing in his defence.
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Eurgh. I really do sound like a spam bot now. I apologise, I’ll stop.
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Mr C. V&G really dropped the ball here. I guess he was knocked for six by the initial onslaught of stupidity (the dumbfoundingly impressive cinema comment), but he really should have taken that cue to run their whole argument into the ground. I guess the lad went in their knowing with the facts on his side, what can go wrong? I’ll just calmly state my case and let the words seep through into the viscous public consciousness.
BANG WRONG.
His spider senses should’ve tingled that this was a pantomime puppet show from the beginning, and being the only one with facial hair, the baddie in the act was firmly established.
OFFENSE, OFFENSE, OFFSENSE BOY. No one conquered Europe by sitting in their soggy trenches crying for mummy. The arguments they put forth (the lions share of which coming from a previously willing accomplice in the great crime of in game violence) were a gift to anyone sharp of tongue and caustic of mind set. There should’ve been a smoking crater of obliterated stupidity by the end of the segment, but all we had was a puddle of luke warm pandering,
Ask for a rematch boy, we’re not licked yet. Embrace the inner asshole, leave them in tears.
Or just Gillen-them into oblivion with rapid-fire word fucks and numerous spinny hand gestures. they won’t understand, they will simply recoil in awe.
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Whoever mentioned Chris Morris earlier had the right idea. There is a definite need for a Brasseye episode about gaming, he could get that woman on the zeitgeist. It would be immense.
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Concerning about children and using games rated 18+. Lolz. It’s like claiming television is BAD because some stations show tits at some hours. Sad.
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Stick to plants Alan……
…and while we’re on the subject of plants and violence, what about Venus Fly Traps and Nettles?
They slowly digest living insects and sting little children….. I’m sickened by you Titchmarsh.
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Plenty of comments about this in the duty log. Seems the posting of this on the intertubes hath riled people somewhat. Wonder if they’ll actually bother doing anything about it.
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I haven’t watching this program, but feel it would be more in the spirit of the program if I complained without seeing it.
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*sighs* I’m not going to watch any of it. No point in raging over some people who just don’t get videogames. Sod them.
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This is what I sent in the end.
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Having just seen a clip of The Alan Titchmarsh Show in which videogames are decried as being harbingers of doom, I feel I must complain.
Not only was the article as a whole grossly misinformed it catered only to the gutterpress masses. Why was the totally, woefully misinformed comment about Venebables, one of James Bulger’s killers, not immediately corrected? The programme has only served to add to the horror surrounding the murder of James Bulger and, because this glaring, horrific mistake was not immediately corrected, the comment will stand as an example of how all gamers should be hung for playing games.
Studies have shown time and time again that playing videogames can serve to further educate and reach out to youngsters with learning difficulties. Studies where videogames are linked to violent behaviour are, I think you’ll find, few and far between. For every study you dig up which sensationalises violence in games there will be two more that say “gamers aren’t actually baby killers”.
Has anyone ever told you about Penny Arcade? It’s a website run by two long-time gamers who have raised MILLIONS for childrens charities. Child’s Play (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child%27s_Play_%28charity%29) receives contributions from gamers from all over the world. I would say that some of us play video games that depict violent scenes. Shock horror.
I myself have served with two of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and am currently an active Special Constable. I give up my free time to keep the streets safe. I have been playing computer and video games for around 30 years, and a lot of them have had violent themes. I don’t go out and beat up grannies or slaughter innocent children.
Moving on to comparisons between films and games, was Alan Titchmarsh not aware you could watch films outside of a cinema? Has he heard of DVD, do you think?
I have to say that this segment of the programme was offensive and totally misinformed. I am horrified you allowed it to be broadcast and request you apologise not only to me but to all gamers out there. You should at the very least allow a proper, informed debate if you’re going to set out to lynch an industry that’s bigger than TV in this country. It makes you look stupid if you do it without checking your facts first. Please don’t do it again.
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It is all down to teaching your child right from wrong if you’ve done it wrong they could become unstable and this has nothing to do with any form of entertainment.
All the effort should be put to teaching parents how to raise their kids.
And as an added bonus this may just cure all crime too.
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Shameless plug time! But a relevant one. My rebuttal features quotes from Tim Ingham and, notably, none from ITV, since their rep palmed me off onto someone else, who failed to reply to my messages.
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Thanks that was a good read.
Thinking about it from another view point ITV want games to die so more people will watch violent soaps at 7pm.
Games are killing TV is all TV bosses think about not the life of our kids.
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don’t know why you couldn’t find a reference to the 130,000 study… i found it in 3 seconds on google. first result:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-03-01-1Avideogames01_ST_N.htm
Of course, she slightly miss-represented it, as it was actually a review of 130 previous studies. It’s also slightly debatable if it’s accurate… but of course that doesn’t mean it’s not accurate, only that there’s some scientific disagreement about it.
So I guess she did at least google it for 3 seconds, though obviously she only took on board the parts that supported her argument.
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PS/ I’m replying here because i get a CGIWrap error when trying to post at gamesetwatch.
PPS/ Even if games do turn kids into violent murderers. a few hours a week sat infront of stupefying soaps should easily counteract that.
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I’m not saying that ITV should know how utterly stupid the show was and how much of an insult to viewers it was by sending your e-mail but shouldn’t something which obviously breaks OFCOM regulations be sent to the proper channels? Having a look over it again, it breaks sections 2.2 (Factual programmes must not mislead the audience), 5.7 (Facts and views must not be misrepresented), 5.9 (Alternative viewpoints must be adequately represented), 7.9 (proper consideration of facts).
I’m just going to list how it breaks some regulations as an example, not that you should be researching the guidelines yourself which are listed here http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/ifi/codes/bcode/
2.2 The show misleads the audience into thinking that violent videogames are readily available to children without the discussion of BBFC and PEGI ratings and does not explain how it is illegal to sell BBFC rated products to under age children. Also it disregards officially commissioned government reports like the Byron report to pander with alternative studies that skew the facts.
5.7 MacKenzie twisting the Bulger story to make a point easily falls under this. It’s emotional manipulation by using a false statement.
5.9 In all fairness to Tim Ingham, he was a soft target drafted in as he had very little TV debating experience while the other two were veterans and knew how to pander to the audience. It’s not a fair representation of the argument and makes it one sided. If Charlie Brooker, Robert Florence or someone who could properly debate the issue who also has experience in televised debate, it would have been a fair representation.
7.9 Falls under 2.2 as well due to factual inaccuracy and the disregarding of official government reports to pander to base instincts while disregarding factual analysis.
I’m not saying you should go to ofcoms website which has a handy online complaints section located at http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/progs/specific/ and make a complaint while you are browsing there but I cant really stop anyone can I?
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Fantastic, thanks, I’ve amended my letter accordingly. I hadn’t sent it yet :)
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It is however even *more* disappointing that there has been next to zero discussion on RPS about the new laws being proposed regarding video game age ratings in the UK.
Up till now in the UK the BBFC only ever rated a few games and PEGI was ‘advisory’. New clauses in the proposed Digital Economy Bill are going to give the Video Standards Council the power to ban games and determine ratings (based mainly – but not always 100% – on PEGI).
To me it is not clear if indie developers, mod makers or people making online flash games etc are now going to be legaly required to get a PEGI rating, nor is it clear to me exactly what rules are goin to be used to rate games, or if some kinds of games will be banned outright.
Of course we can all complained about some shitty day-time TV show that just happened to feature a CVG person (member of the gaming community) getting booed, but given the tabloid-esque low-borw nature of daytime TV I am not surpirsed.
I am however surprised and disappointed that dedicated PC gaming websites and forums are not discussing those parts of the Digital Economy Bill relating to videogame censorship (the only real discussion on RPS has been about the the parts relating to downloading).
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I’ve started a thread in the “PC Gaming” forum:
Censorship and control of videogames in the UK?
http://rockpapershotgun.com/rpsforum/topic.php?id=2177
Anyone who can explain how the current – and the newly proposed system – works would be very welcome. :)
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We’ll know that games have been accepted by the mainstream media as a legitimate form of entertainment when games stories are shown on websites such as the BBC under the ‘Entertainment’ category, rather than the ‘Technology’ category.
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In referencing the recent Anderson et al (2010) paper – Julie
Peasgood failed to acknowledge a recently published paper by Ferguson and Kilburn (2010) – http://www.tamiu.edu/~CFERGUSON/Much%20Ado.pdf. This paper quite nicely questions the validity of the claims and ‘ affects’ within the alluded to Anderson paper. The Peasgood rant is unfortunatly not a-typical of either ‘lay’ debate or that which is published within academic publications. Persons will unfortunatly always use statistics – to show ‘facts’ in light of prior concieved beliefs – however misguided. The intelligent minds must therefore learn to be critical of such claims and in turn question the motivation of those making them… If interested i suggest persons read the Ferguson paper.
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What the fucking Christ is this?
I’ve sent a complaint. But no real need, this type of television can’t last much longer.
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The numbers people sitting around with nothing much to do and an unwillingness to think are probably only going to go up in the future.
Maybe in a few years’ time the audience will be full of us, jeering at some poor soul trying to argue that console games do provide valuable interactive experiences?
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His name is Tit Marsh.
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Got to “Call of Duty 2: Modern Warfare” before I thought “yeah, no.” and turned it off. I thought we were done with this kind of bollocks?
And really, pulling stats out of thin air on _national TV_? I remember when I had faith.
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Hey! Martian Gothic wasn’t that bad!
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Hats off to Tim. I completely subscribe to his point of view. I’m impressed he kept his calm whilst sitting next to one of the most ignorant people I’ve ever seen,
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This is probably not even worth complaining about. It’s clearly an unbalanced discussion, but I doubt the arguments will have whipped up an anti-games feeling. It’s worthless TV, and I’d prefer it was shunned into obsurity than brought into wider conscience by giving it further airtime.
It does show that there perhaps is a need for a balanced debate though, so my thoughts would be that rather than sending angry emails, why not request an alternative. Get well-educated outspoken individuals onto the show – Tanya Byron, Tom Watson, Ian Livingstone – people who know about the psychology or business. Put them up against people like Peasgood.
Also, a new rule should be made – as soon as anyone utters the words “and do you have children?” in an argument, they’ve lost by default.
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Here, here. This a trash show for sofa-bores, presented by a Tit and directed towards the least plugged-in members of society. While the prejudices may be reflective of some, it’s not worth dwelling on. I mean, it’s on ITV, the channel that killed the South Bank Show.
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MacKenzie is pure scum, how he still has a voice in the media I will never know. Some of the stuff he printed when he was editor of the Sun was shameful. No wonder nobody buys the paper in Liverpool anymore.
I wouldn’t worry about the The Alan Titchmarsh Show, this is the same show that use to employ that cunt Jon Gaunt as a panelist.
It has a history of having debates with ill informed people about topics they don’t understand.
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Why the hell does Alan Titchmarsh even assume he’s qualified for intelligent cultural debate? Get back to mulching the compost you stupid, arrogant, pretentious little man.
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Disappointed this article didn’t come with authentic Staring Glue-Crazed Titchmarsh Eyes.
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Hopefully you sent it to OFCOM as well as ITV as ITV will probably fob you off with a form letter.
By the way, anyone contact Tom Watson? I would imagine he is a bit busy fighting the good fight for the Digital Economy bill to be redrawn but since he is pushing for games industry recognition to integrate it into the economy. I cant imagine this sort of sanctimonious tabloid clap-trap would help his cause.
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@Veret
What’s the problem? That the talking-heads are the ones a certain clientele tends to listen to, which not so accidentely seems to be the same clientele that takes political decisions. As a citizen of Switzerland, a country which due to some sad developments in the last few weeks is only two steps away of getting a ridiculously draconic anti-videogame-law based on nothing but a stomachful of unreflected fears and the crudest accusations you could think of, I am sad to report:
There actually IS a problem, and we should not do them the favour of underestimating it.
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You have to love the way they keep dodging the point he keeps making, that it is the parent’s responsibility to ensure children don’t play these games. The same way it is a parent’s responsibility to stop them watching horror or porn. I have stood in line countless times and watched a mother or father buy an 18 rated game for a child. I remember one instance where a woman bought her son GTA4 and he looked no older than 10. The only question she asked was, “is this the one you really want?” Whose fault is it if he is influenced by it? It’s the same bad parenting as the McCann’s who left their kids alone and in harms way….how many people do that and yet they all go berserk when a girl goes missing and say I would never do that. But in truth they do and we all see the same level of neglect in our society everyday. Whether it be a parent letting their children run around a shopping centre, who knows who is lurking around the corner waiting to do the unthinkable? Or run down a busy street near on coming traffic, whose fault would it be if they ran out and got run over? The maker of the car? The driver? No. The fault lies with the irresponsible parent. Some people just need someone to blame for their failings as a parent. I feel sorry for these people.
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He doesn’t. This programme isn’t targeted at an audience that demands intelligent cultural debate. It’s aimed at pensioners who, dismayed by their own cultural irrelevance seek out comfortable things like flowery sofas and Alan Titchmarsh, and see anything they don’t recognise as a threat.
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Damn, that was meant to be aimed @rongwrong above. Curse you reply button, I am undone.
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I am tempted to ask Grandma of http://oghc.blogspot.com/ what she thinks of this show and Alan Titchmarsh ;)
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That must be the most irritating and frustrating seven minutes and eighteen seconds of my life in quite some time. While I’m disappointed and saddened, unfortunately I can’t say that I’m surprised.
On the up-side, I now have a new hero. Tim Imgham, you just might be my role model in video games journalism.
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My first question woul dhave to be: what the fuck sort of debate was anyone expecting on a daytime TV show hosted by a celebrity gardener and crap novellist?
This is the sort of TV that is, by definition, watched by the sort of people who’s opinions are given to them by the media (heaven forbid they should start formulating their own – what sort of state would the world be in if everyone made their own mind up about stuff?) and you can’t expect anything other than a braying horde of knee jerk censorship apologists making hooting noises like the semi-literate monkeys that they so clearly are.
Personally I think gamers should just ignore them; there is no point in trying to engage people in debate when they are patently incapable of, and utterly unwilling to, understand the subject matter. These people just want their confirmation bias approved. These people, in short, are not capable of understanding gamers or gaming because the very concept of challenge is anathemic to them.
Just tell ‘em to fuck off and ignore them.
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At the point where Alan asked Tim “whats the thrill in them for you?” you could almost see him flinch and consider an answer that wouldn’t result in the audience moaning annoyingly. Imagine if he had answered with “I love violence, combat, killing, having the power to choose if someone lives or dies”. :D
Very frustrating.
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This is such a lovely forum post i just had to share it with you lot. It’s from AT’s forum.
‘Personally I love to sit down with my children/grandchildren and talk about the day and what the future may hold for us all , you just can,t get that quality out of a game ,
but some of the anwsers out of a conversation are just priceless
have a lovely afternoon
Rosy’
I love games and gaming but i’m with lovely Rosy on this subject.
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This sort of stuff is what gets shows cancelled. Titchmarsh has signed his own death warrant with this. Anyone remember Trevor’s ‘Tonight’ programme when they ran a piece on videogames that was horribly inaccurate? The amount of complaints that stemmed from that was enough for the producers to turn around and go ‘hang on, this show is turning a bit shit’. Three months later it disappeared from our screens.
Of course that single piece wasn’t the sole cause of the programme’s demise, but when you start running pieces on videogame violence, you know you’re on the way out.
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Apologies for the shameless plug, but I wrote a piece on the DEBill for my Monday post. Feel free to read it by clicking the link in my name.
In other news, the damn annoying thing about this is that it won’t stop. Ever. Because people are convinced that this is right.
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I’m not so sure, I think it’ll die out, and it’ll just take a generation or two for that to happen. If you think about it, the Titchmarsh/ Peasgood/ McKenzie generation didn’t grow up with video games, I’m sure none of them have experienced a proper exposure to the medium. In twenty to thirty years time, that won’t be the case, especially with the way social games are so ubiquitous at the moment.
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Gah. I’m sorry to report that the Daily Mail is running a story about how a Chinese gamer got stabbed in the head whilst playing Counterstrike, apparently in a row about hacking in-game. Shite. We could really do without this sort of thing happening. (As, I imagine, the chap with the knife in his head felt too).
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I only recently found this blog. Been a PCG reader for years.
Just watched this video and my reaction is
RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yep, that about sums it up
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Tim Ingham deserves a medal. it was obvious he was the only one that actually understood and knows the industry. the other 2 just pulled facts from the air and have a preset idea in their head that nothing will change.
I love the way they kept skipping round the fact that Tim reinforced over and over and over… Kids shouldnt be playing 18 rated games and its down to the parents to enforce this as they see fit. Im sorry, but its that damn simple.
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“A tsunami of violence”. Wonderful.
And the “have you got kids?” attack. Priceless.
I just wish Tim Ingham hadn’t backed into the “movies are much worse than games” defence….
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Argh, honestly I do wonder if these people actually think about what they say before they say it.
Titchmarsh saying that you can stop a child going into a cinema but you can’t stop them playing a game in the home WTF? Did he never get a VCR never mind a DVD player, and at least games machines can be set-up not to play these games where as I can’t remember a feature on a DVD player to stop age rated films being played. I suppose you can set this feature on a DigiBox but a kid could easily watch terrestrial TV late at night in their room and be exposed to even worse things than Call of Duty.
Also, the guy on the end’s ramble about games becoming ever more realistic seems to fall down on the fact that CGI has done the same with films.
It just seems to me that parents want to blame the people that make games instead of taking responsibility for their children. I can’t count the number of times an adult came into the games shop I used to work in (some 8 years ago now) and buy an 18 game for the child stood next to them. Most of them get really offended when you advise them it might not be suitable for their spawn too. Honestly, talk about a responsibility-less society. And then they wonder why their kids take no responsibility for their actions.
Sort your own house out first, either that or just stop breeding you bottom feeders!!
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Tim did a fantastic job of trying to illustrate the up-side of video games…but there’s really no point in trying to explain these things to people who categorically go out of there way to hate something they don’t play, understand, or interact with. The host didn’t even know there was a video game rating system in place to prevent kids from getting their hands on violent video games. I mean, that’s just not doing your homework…or not caring to be accurate in exchange for being provocative.
And the thing that is so insulting is that people don’t seem to get the idea that video games aimed at adults are made for adults…not for children. They don’t care about the video games that are out there for kids because it doesn’t help their cause of wiping video games from the map…because, you know, we all have to think, act, talk, and breathe alike.
The argument isn’t going to go away. And if it does…what ever overtakes video games years and years from now will receive the same treatment then that video games do now.
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Another disgraceful tv representation of video games messing up kids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbYUd1jUc4&feature=fvw
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@bill
That’s the Onion, a well known news parody site. It’s called satire, kiddo.
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I’ll happily let my son play videogames appropriate for children his age, but i don’t want him exposed to ITV’s programming.
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I have recently seen a clip of this show where the issue of video games and violence was discussed.
I would like to politely express my discontent with your show. There are many reasons for why I am disappointed with it. First of all, it is clear that there was not an intellectual debate presented but instead a biased discussion in which a professional journalist had to defend his position against 2 other guests, and the host of the show, Alan, who for some reason decided it was best to ask the video game journalist questions, instead of maintaining a neutral position and either asking no questions at all or asking both sides of the debate questions. I’m also mad at the fact that while you invited two guests to criticize video games, you only invited a single guest to defend them. Therefore, that’s why I claim that your show was biased 3 vs 1.
To make matters worse, the audience was clearly used in order to show video games as a negative problem that should be solved, with the audience clearly being controlled to only applaud when video games were being attacked. While I am sure that you have no control over the audience’s actions, since that would be foolish, I cannot but wonder how weird it is that for some reason, the audience only boo’ed when the journalist talked and applauded everyone else.
I cannot also but criticize your choice of guests against video games. Not only did Julie Peasgood and the other man have silly arguments to offer, such as video games promoting “hatred, violence and sexism” with no reference to other ways of media such as movies and other TV Shows, which clearly promote those values too, but they also avoided the journalist’s arguments regarding the absolute fact that children do not get their hands on violent video games unless bad parents buy them for them. It shows that your guests were nothing but hypocrites, decided to try to make a false point without actually debating and counter-attacking any of the journalist’s arguments for real.
Finally, I believe that you should either repeat the debate in a well-mannered, civil and fair way, or you should ask for apologies either on the Net or on your show itself. Criticizing the video game industry brings nothing but the public against it, which is bad for its economy. In case you did not know, the video game is a billion-making industry and many developers currently design games in Great Britain, games which are very successful worth wide that are both taxed and controlled by the government.
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Best e-mail I’ve ever written in my life.
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Got a reply back from OFCOM at the weekend, but it was basically telling me there were no issues with the regulations and it was all lovely and shiny and nice and I was a git. What can you do, eh?
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The only guest with an argument which was in any way coherent and relevant was the young chap, I loved his point that the same violence in the same context can be seen in literature and film. Why should these games be any more addictive than this new breed of gore-porn, surely there wouldn’t be a saw10, or whatever we’re on now, if that was true. The boot in the middle has no idea what she’s on about. give us some pop culture references, rather than the popular close minded “I’m an angry mum, boo-hoo” stance.
Anyway, I’m angry.
And Titch: Stick to what you know eh? Rhododendrons and outlandish decking.
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I think parents should be responsible enough what their kids are into. But they should not be too protective.
– vigilon security
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