By John Walker on August 25th, 2011 at 10:52 am.
You’d imagine gaming would lead the way on more liberal values, but it’s surprising still how rare LGBT characters are in games. The compromise tends to be Sims-like universal polysexuality, almost no characters deliberately written as anything other than straight, with rare exceptions. One such company that tends to recognise a same-sex relationship is BioWare, which makes the news that The Old Republic won’t be supporting them a little surprising. It seems Star Wars might not have room for gays. However, in better news, we learn today that the realms of Skyrim will not only allow same-sex relationships, but also same-sex marriage.
The Star Wars: The Old Republic attitude is a peculiar one. Back in 2009, as Videogamer point out, a thread was started on the official TOR forums in which LGBT gamers asked why the words “gay” and “lesbian” were banned on the forum. Obviously such a move is usually to remove opportunities for abuse, although clearly has some rather more concerning connotations. This was not helped when BioWare employee Sean Dahlberg posted to the thread,
“As I have stated before, these are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.
Thread closed.”
The thread was eventually re-opened and the words allowed. But it seems the attitude has not extended to the content of the game. The MMO’s producer, Cory Butler, said on an (extremely embarrassing) episode of BioWare Pulse (which seems to have since been deleted by BioWare, but is still available to watch here, at around 3 minutes). When asked about the possibility of gay or lesbian relationships he replies very pointedly, “Same-gender relationships are not in Star Wars: The Old Republic.”
With Dragon Age and Mass Effect both including same-sex coupling, it’s clearly not an issue BioWare has across the board – in fact they’re probably the most forward-thinking and inclusive developer out there. So you have to wonder what it is about Star Wars that means the same philosophy cannot be extended there.
But today Eurogamer brings the news that Skyrim is being far more open-minded. The game will include the ability to form relationships with certain characters, who can then becomes friends or lovers, and even marry you. Build a home and your partner will move in with you. And if that partner is the same sex as you, the game won’t blink an eye. Bethesda’s PR boss, Pete Hines, confirmed on Twitter that you can shack up with whomever you wish. Which presumably also introduces the complexity of cross-species relationships as well as sex.
Twitter user Jadis232 asked Hines,
“Nice interview! Is same sex marriage in Skyrim? I know the option to get married to ppl is in. The subject seems like hush hush.”
Hines replied,
“Not hush hush, just not making a huge deal out of it. You can marry anyone.”
Then adding,
“Sorry, should clarify. Not any NPC, just mean any male or female. Doesn’t matter what you’re playing.”
25/08/2011 at 10:58 Zeewolf says:
The reason is probably that they can’t be arsed to code some kind of gender check. People will probably treat you exactly the same if you’re male, female, human or orc.
25/08/2011 at 11:03 duncanthrax says:
Definitely. It’s just easy to be politically correct in this case :)
25/08/2011 at 11:46 Knef says:
Actually Morrowind had at least one character, Crassus Curio, that was accidentally bisexual. He was supposed to only be flirty towards female players, but somehow the developers forgot to add a sex check and he ended up asking male players to strip for him in order to advance in his quest line.
25/08/2011 at 11:53 diebroken says:
Just as long as you aren’t forced to perform a ‘dance of the three snakes’…
25/08/2011 at 12:28 LionsPhil says:
Unless I’m mistaken, the only time the (3D) Elder Scrolls games have even vaguely acknowledged marriage is Ahnassi. Any other romance with NPCs is left to your unbounded imagination (you sad, lonely people).
I hope this news doesn’t mean that Mass Effect has inspired them to scatter horrid little dating sim quests all over the place.
25/08/2011 at 13:47 thegooseking says:
Less worried about Skyrim picking up some Mass Effect influences and more worried about TES becoming Fable, myself.
25/08/2011 at 13:54 Sheng-ji says:
I wonder if the decision was more to do with keeping the number of male and female avatars in the game fairly balanced… An attempt to stop every server being populated with lesbians controlled by young men.
25/08/2011 at 14:37 JKjoker says:
thats exactly why they did it on Dragon Age 2, they had all that PR BS but it was obvious the real reason was to economize written and recorded dialog (hell, that whole game was an experiment on how much they could keep costs down)
25/08/2011 at 18:27 Wulf says:
It’s funny though that Ahnassi’s quest line is one of the best written and most interesting quests in any Bethesda-produced game, let alone Morrowind itself. And there was one mod as well that improved upon it by adding a few extra quests to Ahnassi which completed the experience. But yes, the subtle way with which Ahnassi’s romance was handled meant that I had much more fun with that than I usually do with Bethesda game.
Though I have to admit that there were other things in Morrowind that were subtle, such as the morally ambiguous nature of everyone. There was no clear cut good/evil path in Morrowind, and even Dagoth-Ur seemed to have a good side to him, as much as the Tribune had a very dark side to them. So the Great House Dagoth mod was one I appreciated, as I wanted to explore that. It’s a shame that Bethesda didn’t allow for that, really, with all the effort they put into making things not so clear cut.
Later games (Oblivion) were much more clumsy and clear cut with their good/evil lines, they were also far less subtle in relation to everything. The best quest in Oblivion was a player-created companion quest named Ruined-Tail’s Tale. I don’t think it amounts to a romance quest so much as a companion quest, one where you make a damned good friend whom you might (and do) follow through the gates of hell in order to keep safe. If the romances and friendships in Skyrim are subtle like Ahnassi’s and Ruined-Tail’s, then I’ll be happy.
If they’re more clumsy like those of Dragon Age II (which just seem like a gender-check has been removed) then i won’t consider it any real benefit. I’d love them to get the person who wrote the Ahnassi quest line though to come back and do some romance quests for them. And they should really hire the person responsible for Ruined-Tail’s Tale, too, as RTT is the best writing I’ve seen in Bethesda games and all of their mods bar none.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens, anyway, but I’m a proponent of relationships if they’re handled like that. And one other thought occurs to me in closing… I wonder how a game would do if the player had to deal with a gay person coming onto them at one point and a potential gay relationship? As a gay person, I’ve had no amount of female characters come onto me in games and it’s something that I’ve just learned to accept due to the demographic, it’d likely shake things up if it happened again. Sure, it’s happened in Morrowind due to a bug (and what a bug!) but it could stand to happen again, just to see how open-minded about such things gamers really are.
25/08/2011 at 19:35 Hoaxfish says:
Now, I’ve never checked myself, but I hear being gay involves a lot of being arsed.
25/08/2011 at 23:26 4xis.black says:
This is known in design terms as a “win-win situation”.
25/08/2011 at 10:59 HexagonalBolts says:
Don’t forget the gay super mutant that rapes you in Fallout 2…
But seriously, I think most developers don’t include same sex relations just because they don’t want to create a stir or divert attention from the main focus of their game (the same reason why very few games include killable children) rather than having some moral issue with their inclusion.
If that’s the case I think it’s fair enough that normally it’s not engaged with, only in more complex and deep games. I mean, much to my disappointment, a large amount of games still don’t engage with anything beyond ‘SHOOT TERRORIST. KILL.’, let alone human emotions, let alone relationships on a deep and meaningful level, let alone same sex relationships.
25/08/2011 at 11:11 Prime says:
“Don’t forget the gay super mutant that rapes you in Fallout 2…”
I almost had but then someone mentioned it again. Cheers. And my therapist said I was doing so well, too…
The only thing that saves my fragile mind is the thought that maybe supermutants have really weeny peenies, proportionately not in scale with the rest of them. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
25/08/2011 at 12:06 diebroken says:
Deus Ex is also another game which features killable children. Damn that Louis Pan kid in Hong Kong was annoying…
25/08/2011 at 14:30 Saiko Kila says:
Louis Pan was a bad kid. He deserved that.
27/08/2011 at 02:23 Tychoxi says:
Man! FO2 had actual gay or lesbian marriage. yeah they mostly behaved the same way regardless of your gender, but still. New Vegas overdid it a bit though, half your potential companions are homo- or bisexuals! (The other half being asexual)
16/09/2011 at 01:38 Dave Mongoose says:
I seem to remember killable children being removed from the UK release of the original Fallout games for censorship reasons (i.e. the game would have been refused a rating by the BBFC). I don’t know if the BBFC’s stance on this has changed but I’m fairly certain they flat-out don’t allow child murder in UK video game releases.
The problem for developers choosing to leave out gay relationship options is that it’s a ‘safe’ choice until someone asks why: You’ll get into a lot more controversy by trying to justify leaving them out than you would have done for just including them.
25/08/2011 at 10:59 Jannakar says:
One might imagine that there could be some rules coming from LucasArts on what is or is not permissible within their universe.
The only person being able to mess things up being George Lucas himself, of course.
25/08/2011 at 11:01 Mike says:
Actually, I wonder if it’s a pre-emptive move against the problems WoW had in ‘handling’ LGBT guilds. I seem to remember them trying to ban them at one point, then backtracking, and generally getting everyone’s backs up. Maybe they’re trying to slip it under the rug before the game even launches?
25/08/2011 at 11:09 Tom De Roeck says:
Do you think that that is the reason KOTOR 2 got such bad treatment?
25/08/2011 at 11:30 Magnetude says:
I would also guess this is coming from LucasArts, not Bioware themselves, who seem to warm up to gayness more and more with each game.
I can imagine it went like this: Bioware ask LucasArts if boys can kiss boys in their new Star Wars game. LucasArts has a quick look on the internet at the Mass Effect ‘Virtual Orgasmic Rape’ furore, and decides it wants none of that bad PR, thank you.
It’s a shame, but I can understand why they wouldn’t want to be seen to be forcing liberal values (as the rightwing media will see it) on a fanbase that’s stayed with them since the 70s.
25/08/2011 at 11:38 spanner says:
Yep, only incest allowed in this galaxy thank you very much.
25/08/2011 at 12:14 Keymonk says:
On that topic, I -think- I actually remember someone saying they really didn’t exist in the Star Wars universe. But, thinking of the KOTORs, that’d be sort of odd, wouldn’t it? Hm.
25/08/2011 at 15:27 Acorino says:
>>Yep, only incest allowed in this galaxy thank you very much.
Haha, reminds me of this old webcomic: http://sexylosers.com/002.html
>>On that topic, I -think- I actually remember someone saying they really didn’t exist in the Star Wars universe.
Well, they did include black people for political correctness, so what’s wrong with some gayness?
25/08/2011 at 16:18 vecordae says:
Star Wars has always been very progressive and forward thinking. Examples like Jar-Jar Binks, Newt Gunray, and C-3PO show that terrible, old-fashioned racial and sexual stereotypes can be made palatable for a younger audience by assigning them to aliens or robots.
25/08/2011 at 17:23 der jester says:
Re: the WoW thing. I actually worked in support during that debacle. There was a long debate about it with management since the Harassment Policy specifically stated “used in harassment” it should’ve been a non-issue. They just tried to justify a stupid move by saying “Well we did it to prevent harassment (and gave you a two hour ban to protect you).” It went beyond support management to people higher in the company and finally got resolved. It was such a stupid situation. The initial excuse was the same as BioWare is making “There are LGBT characters in this universe.” I could see Lucasarts saying the same thing since they was to appeal to everyone, not just well educated, well adjusted human beings.
25/08/2011 at 11:00 AbyssUK says:
But horses cannot marry ghosts..? What a crazy game..
25/08/2011 at 11:40 Knef says:
I think we still have a thousand years left for that.
25/08/2011 at 13:44 Colonel J says:
I’d have married my horse in Oblivion if I could. Loved that guy.
25/08/2011 at 15:09 PopeJamal says:
If I had spent that much on DLC armor, I’d want to marry my horse too.
25/08/2011 at 17:52 Rhin says:
Hope you signed a prenup, the horse usually gets the armor in a divorce.
25/08/2011 at 11:00 Meat Circus says:
You’d imagine gaming would lead the way on more liberal values
No. No I really wouldn’t.
25/08/2011 at 11:03 John Walker says:
I know it *isn’t*, but somehow I’d expect the newest media to be the more liberal. But then I’m a fool.
25/08/2011 at 11:09 ReV_VAdAUL says:
Mainstream games are corporate driven and thus inherently conservative, rocking the boat just loses potential customers.
Further to disabuse you of the belief the newest kind of media attracts the most progressive people you can depress yourself by watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5ev2Dp4I0
25/08/2011 at 11:14 Tom De Roeck says:
Id say something about inherently american media, but I doubt the still very religious european counterparts arent much better, really. They just show more breasts.
25/08/2011 at 11:28 Sheng-ji says:
The problem with gaming is the appeal it holds with teenagers. Teenagers, despite their protests are not adults and cannot be assumed to be able to deal with life in the same way as one. More teenagers hold extreme views against gender or sexuality because most of them haven’t had to deal with these issues in a mature way yet.
As a female gamer, I find it almost impossible to identify myself as such in an online game because I can guarantee within 5-10 hours of gaming I will have been cyber stalked by a creepy boy or abused in the nastiest way, solely due to my gender. I could not imagine how bad it must be for a gamer who wants to be open about their sexuality online if they are not straight.
But you can’t blame these kids, they need to go through the development process, it’s just how their brains work. Neither can you blame the developers – they know their market and if they thought that including lesbian or gay themes into their games would not damage sales, I’m sure it would be in there.
Finally – what kind of sexuality is included in Old Republic? To me the star wars universe is mostly devoid of sex, beyond the most basic love stories – which I’m sure players will be acting out via text messaging happily enough with the gender of their choice – Will there be specific options to be sexual between male and female avatars, will we really have tonnes of NPC’s actively leading hetrosexual lives or will it be more likely that sex is never really mentioned – in which case there really is no problem here.
EDIT: Just seen that there will be romance options with NPC’s in the game, which I guess means this is a bit discriminatory, however I’m far more interested now in how they are going to acieve this technically – is it going to be instanced or will you be gazing at the moon with your beau when some other character ghosts straight through you doing the same with the same character!
25/08/2011 at 11:38 formivore says:
Wow, that video was really depressing.
EDIT. Voted for “kill all white people” in the comments. Feel a bit better.
25/08/2011 at 11:39 V. Profane says:
There’s an interesting part in the Half-Life ‘Raising The Bar’ book where they discuss one of the cut monsters which was supposed to deliberately draw on the homophobia of teenage boys.
25/08/2011 at 11:42 jon_hill987 says:
@V. Profane: Presumably it ended up in Left 4 Dead instead.
25/08/2011 at 12:15 Man Raised by Puffins says:
@ ReV_VAdAUL: Man, and I thought I had neuroses.
25/08/2011 at 12:15 Bent Wooden Spoon says:
I’m personally of the opinion that the games industry is one of the most conservative industries there is, and that most gamers are of a conservative mindset.
Spend any time on gaming sites and the majority of people tend to be quite reactionary and selfish in their outlook – see the cyclical ‘Always online DRM doesn’t bother me because I have a great internet connection, so everyone should shut up’ argument as an example that personally gets up my nose because I live in backwaters Asia. Part of the reason I like RPS is the generally liberal vibe from both the writers and the commenters, but it’s not something I see so often on other sites, and it’ll probably decline with time on the commenters’ side as it gets more popular and the demographics level out. I agree with Sheng-Ji to a point about many gamers being teenagers, but I don’t think it’s a full explanation – some of the biggest slur-throwing trolls I’ve seen have professed to be adults, and some apparently even have children. The thought gives me nightmares, but I’d imagine loads of flaming nasties are much older than you’d think. Except for the 10 years olds singing on COD on Xbox live…
I don’t see many examples of liberalism from the mainstream industry players either, especially as they’re amongst those leading the charge when it comes to trashing consumer rights. They’re also much more risk averse than either the publishing, music or film industries, hence so many games about shootybangmurderdeath and so few about anything else.
As I see it the older mediums express way more liberal representation, both due to the time they’ve been around to diversify their output and their audience and the fact they weren’t birthed in an era where everything ultimately came down to a cell in a spreadsheet. Munch, Mozart and Shakespeare didn’t have corporate execs breathing down their neck demanding the equivalents of boss fights and cover systems. Which is why indies, in any of the creative industries, are important even if you personally don’t find their output to your taste.
25/08/2011 at 12:28 Baboonanza says:
@Jim
History actually tells a remarkably different story – radio, film and TV were all hugely conservative and restrictive about content in their early days. Hollywood in particular was almost puritanical about it’s Motion Picture Production Code.
It is true that these were different times, but it would be fairly naive to expect anything different. And it makes sense – while a new media is attempting to attain respectability and broaden it’s audience it is natural that a certain moral conservatism should win out.
But like film, TV and radio it won’t last.
25/08/2011 at 12:45 MikoSquiz says:
Whenever I start to think maybe having reached the 21st century it’s not strictly necessary any more to make a big deal about homosexuality over every imaginable medium, I just look at the genuinely hair-raising comments on any interweb article dealing with gay characters in video games. Even here, on dear old civilized and enlightened RockPaperShotgun. Have you seen some of the stuff on page 3? Holy shit.
25/08/2011 at 13:24 Bent Wooden Spoon says:
Baboonanza: Think that was directed at John, but it applies to the last bit of what I said too. Good point, brainfart left me stupidly thinking about the older industries after they’d reached some kind of maturity rather than right at the start. You’re bang on. Same also applied to the printing press. And the same also applied to the public’s fear, mistrust and conviction that each form of new media would tear apart the fabric of society.
I think you’re right about moral conservatism being tied to an ettempt to broaden respectability at the start, up to a point. I also think the accessibility of creation in a medium is also an important factor though – the easier it is for people to participate in creation the broader the range of content. Related to that, I generally find the most special things are endeavours done in large part for the enjoyment of it rather than the pursuit of cash, or as in the early days of TV, radio and books a will to assert moral authority.
25/08/2011 at 13:46 DrGonzo says:
I think it just depends on what games you play. The gamers I play with are pretty liberal and so are the games, but then so am I (ish). Just like any other media.
25/08/2011 at 14:22 bildo says:
@ John Walker
Well, the media, and most of the people associated with it, in America is pretty much as liberal as it gets around here. Newspapers, television and movies. However, gaming really does seem to be more conservative in nature – as in: violence is not as bad a sex.
Looks to me that the oldest media in the US is liberal so give gaming about a century. Although, I say there’s way too many libs in the media…maybe it’s time for more conservative fare.
Also, no problem with GLBT being in Skyrim…however it strikes me as odd that 4 other main entries into the series has flown by…and aside from the bug in Morrowind everyone is assumed to be straight. I don’t see how this is going to be explained into the game world very well, if at all. Such a big change happening with no idea why…it’s a put off for me.
25/08/2011 at 14:26 eridyn says:
@ReV_VAdAUL
Having watched the video you linked to, I was compelled to register an account simply to express the overload of, “Oh dear christ, what the hell?” sentiments which it inspired.
Thank you for helping to chip away at my lingering naivette and illusions that humanity is intelligent.
25/08/2011 at 18:58 Wulf says:
@formivore
This is kind of funny…
Not that you’ve said anything inherently funny, not at all, but rather because it came up on a forum the other day. I was ranting (as I do) about how I’m so damn tired of prejudices – whether they be against race, gender, or creed, it just doesn’t matter. To that rant I had a few opponents, and out of curiosity I poked them to discover that a simply theory I had was correct.
All those who didn’t believe that prejudice was an issue were straight, in good health and of a majority ethnicity (primarily caucasian).
The problem is is that if you’re a straight, healthy, caucasian person then you’re never going to really experience discrimination or prejudice. And I think it’s also a problem that the majority of gamers also fall into this demographic. Now I’m a gay person who has some functional disabilities, disabilities which aren’t a lot of fun, and verge on what some might consider to be autism unless they understood my situation better. Try doing that through education in the ’70s and ’80s. And try even thinking of mentioning that you’re gay.
The problem is is that whilst in actual life we might be more open-minded these days, the Internet itself has collapsed back to a state of constant prejudice that we ‘enjoyed’ a few decades back, situations where due to either things you can’t control (such as being gay or disabled), or your ethnicity, or even your lifestyle choices will result in prejudices and mockery. And that’s not a lot of fun. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps the Internet would work better if it were rebooted, the slate wiped clean, and in this new Internet anonymity wasn’t permitted, at all. I realise that might cause problems and may not be a good idea at all. But some days I can’t help but wonder, you know?
Even here on RPS I’ve seen some prejudices. They aren’t common but they are there. It’s just the nature of being anonymous, really, I suppose. What that means is that you can spout hate speech against whatever groups you like and not have to worry about it beyond being banned/edited, and that, of course, in turn is going to make those groups feel more neurotic and less safe. Things are getting better, I’ll say that, the prejudices aren’t quite as bad, but on the Internet with anonymity I’ve seen no small amount of people promoting ethnicity-based slavery, culling of homosexuals, and goodness knows what else.
And again, many of the people who seem to care least about prejudices, through all my research, are the healthy, straight, and white. They’re in a position where they don’t have to worry about prejudices because they’re enjoying a ‘Master Race’ scenario, they’re not experiencing prejudice and they don’t even fully comprehend when they’re responsible for it, either. And they have the numbers on the Internet, it seems, so complaining about this is like fighting an army.
But yes, nothing about any of this surprises me, simply because I’ve experienced so much of it on the Internet already. Prejudices are fairly commonplace, here, whether they’re big or small, and whether you find them silly or not, none of that matters. It’s all horrible regardless, and it’s still making people suffer.
25/08/2011 at 19:12 Wulf says:
@Bent Wooden Spoon
It’s something that I don’t think many would understand, but… regarding games with always-on DRM, I don’t buy them because of that, and those are convictions that I stand by. Why? Because friends of mine can’t play them. I see it as discriminatory. If you’re in a part of the world where the Internet isn’t so great (and this even included the UK back in the ’90s, for all those who would care to remember) then you’re screwed.
Let’s say I have one friend who has a great PC but, due to living in a less developed part of the world, can’t play games that use always-on DRM due to their Internet connection randomly crapping out, or their bandwidth not being reliable. So I ask myself this question: Should I buy the game and enjoy it despite the fact that a friend can’t, thus somewhat rubbing that inability in my friend’s face, or do I make a stand against publishers that use DRM like this and not buy the game with him?
I have friends from all walks of life and that’s something that’s probably made me frothingly left wing. I’m not afraid to admit that. You can only stand to see so much suffering before you end up that way, if you have a conscience, and then you just remain that way. I did, anyway. The thing is is that there are all sorts of inequalities in this world that I find unsettling, whether they’re big inequalities like people not having food/medicines/housing, or small inequalities such as people in lesser developed areas not living the cushy life that, say, British middle-classes do. And when you have something like always-on DRM and people who support them, what I hear is people saying that inequality is okay, and that rubs me the wrong way.
I suppose being the sort of person I am, I have been in contact with people from all walks of life. From the poor, the homeless, to those whom are simply less fortunate than myself, to those whom are far, far more fortunate than myself. I know them all. From all brackets of life. And knowing all of these people really gives one a broad band of perception, it allows you to perceive things differently, and understand that what applies to one’s own life does not necessarily (and might never) apply to another person. It’s a modicum of wisdom that I’ve earned, and one that I would, if possible, take and write into the mind of every living human.
26/08/2011 at 02:33 noodlecake says:
@Wulf Hmm…
I am a bisexual Caucasian male who has never felt discriminated against because of my sexuality. I was, however, severely bullied as a kid for being white. I went to a primary school in Chapeltown in Leeds and was one of 2 white kids in the school. Pretty much anyone that wasn’t black got bullied. The asian kids got bullied too. There wasn’t really much that anyone could do about it being that most of the teachers were also white and there were loads of instances where the kids would start shouting about racism if the teachers tried to do anything.
So yeah. You can be white and be discriminated against. It’s a tad presumptuous to say that no straight white people in England ever get discriminated against for anything. And then there are other things besides sexuality and skin colour. People have been known to lose their jobs when outed as being into bdsm, for example.
I’m not saying that any of those things are reasons to start picking on asian lesbians all of a sudden or anything. :P
25/08/2011 at 11:00 derella says:
I can only assume that LucasArts made the decision to exclude homosexual romances in SWTOR. Bioware has been inclusive for quite some time now. They even said that in ME3 Shepard could have a man-on-man relationship.
Kudos to Bethesda, though.
25/08/2011 at 11:45 Josh04 says:
‘even’
25/08/2011 at 19:30 Wulf says:
Indeed. Sorry to say but that reads in a very unsettling way.
“They even agreed to notice you lesser people!”
That might not have been the intent, I realise that, but it’s how it reads.
25/08/2011 at 21:40 jezcentral says:
@Wulf, I read it as “they have even made a previously straight character potentially gay”.
Remember, always try to see the polite side in anything said on the internet.
25/08/2011 at 11:01 Coins says:
Well, that’s good news, although Bethesda was kind of leading up to this with the ‘romance’ choices in FO:NV.
25/08/2011 at 13:01 Azdeus says:
Surely, you mean Obsidian?
25/08/2011 at 14:46 Hallgrim says:
Bethesda still owns the IP though, right? Surely getting Obsidian to create the sequel doesn’t include giving them completely free reign, especially when it comes to topics as absurdly volatile as this one.
25/08/2011 at 19:32 Wulf says:
Actually, Obsidian did have free reign. This was due to Obsidian having a chunk of Black Isle under their wing. They’re not Black Isle in its entirety (and more is the pity) but they do have a number of their writers. So it was a wise choice for Bethesda to give their writers free reign. Obsidian’s writers are some of the best in the business, really.
So no, Bethesda had nothing to do with the relationships in Fallout: New Vegas.
(One thing that amuses me is how the Fallout wiki refused to add that Arcade was a homosexual romance option to his page, when they noted heterosexual romance options elsewhere. I’m not sure if they’ve changed that, but when I last checked there was nothing about it on Arcade’s page. Yay gamer homophobia.)
26/08/2011 at 06:23 thebigJ_A says:
I just checked and it does at least mention that he is one of two openly gay NPCs (along with Veronica). It doesn’t seem shy in talking about it either. Veronica’s page even goes into speculation about which female NPC Veronica had a relationship with (before the BoS ruined it).
I’ve never actually tried, are sure it’s possible to romance him?
25/08/2011 at 11:03 Brumisator says:
I see nothing wrong with open, free choice polysexuality.
As I see it, in the gaming medium, you either get games where the player is the focus of all attention, and can do whatever he wants, or you can have the player as only a part of the bigger picture (Fallout, etc.)
If a very free game like The Elder Scrolls started restricting player choice “sorry this NPC is not gay, please try again”, it’d be a tad annoying.
25/08/2011 at 11:26 Edawan says:
sorry this NPC is not gay, please try again”
Actually this would be great. In real life people are rarely polysexual. They’re either hetero or homo, with the later being more rare. In games, NPCs should have a predetermined preference and not just be open to anyone.
25/08/2011 at 11:32 John Walker says:
Surely some should be open to persuasion?
25/08/2011 at 11:49 Astatine says:
Fable 3 does this. It’s… umm, “realistic”.
Notionally, you can tell when an NPC is gay, by flipping up the little info panel while talking to them. It lists some textual “attributes”, including sexuality.
In practice, you can tell when an NPC is gay by checking his hair for resemblance to strawberry ice cream. >_<
As a (mostly…) gay guy who isn't turned on by strawberry ice cream hair, I'd rather have the gratuitous polysexuality :-p
25/08/2011 at 12:00 The Sombrero Kid says:
That sounds a bit creepy John. :P
25/08/2011 at 12:04 Zhou says:
Edawan: I would say thats a fairly big claim to make in a field that, to my knowledge at least, is still fairly unclear. Depending on who you talk to “people” are always either hetero, bi, or poly ^^.
What this comes down to is that in an open world rpg a developer has to make a choice between sexuality models, with certain rammifications, and any choice is going to piss someone off.
Our perceptions of sexuality are of course coloured and reinforced by our society, so for us (western society) most people are categorised or categorisable as hetero/homo/bi. In another fictional world, who is to say? Hell, even on Earth the picture isn’t that clear in other cultures. As a dev I’m guessing you pick your cultural stance and get on with it :p.
25/08/2011 at 12:16 wiper says:
John: it’s reasonable enough that some might be, but even most bisexual people have a preference (I say this as a bisexual man myself), whereas games tend to have characters coded either not to notice your sex at all (lets call this pansexual, for ease of reference), to be heterosexual, or, much more rarely, to be homosexual.
In fact, in my experience, games which allow you to choose your character’s sex, and with the option for romance, are most likely either to include only heterosexual characters, only pansexual characters, or a mix of heterosexual and pansexual characters – having any purely homosexual characters is far rarer. It’s as though the message in most games is that people are either straight, or they’re sooo promiscuous that they’ll sleep with anybody, giving a whiff of the idea that sexuality is somehow a ‘choice’, and that anyone who isn’t heterosexual will just sleep with anyone. Bioware have been guilty of this in the past: very few of their games include gay characters, including only straight and pansexual people instead.
Then again, this all ties into the other standard problem, that most games deal with romance by requiring the player character be nice to their prospective partner, which will somehow ‘win’ them the romance. Rather than said prospective romances being swayed by the player’s general conduct (Dragon Age: Origins was one of the few to avoid this, though it still fell into the ‘two straight, two pansexual’ trap). And if anybody is pansexual, they never seem to have any issues with it – the idea that some of the characters are coded as ‘in the closet’ could be interesting, but it never happens: a character who is happily straight, but can be made aware that, er, they actually aren’t? That would be an interesting romance. I imagine it would terrify certain parts of America even more than standard non-heterosexuality would, though. “Game Teaches Players to TURN Good, Honest, God-Fearing Straight People!”. Something like that.
25/08/2011 at 13:55 thegooseking says:
Using ‘admire’, ‘joke’ and ‘boast’ to raise someone’s disposition and persuade them to change their sexuality I’d have no problem with. It all gets a bit nasty when you click on coerce, though.
25/08/2011 at 14:37 Urthman says:
So you’re saying that you think the game should let you turn a gay character straight by telling him a few jokes? I didn’t know Michelle Bachman’s husband worked at Bethesda.
25/08/2011 at 14:47 Hallgrim says:
@thegooseking: Pretty sure alcohol works best. Just sayin’.
25/08/2011 at 16:40 vecordae says:
Eh, human sexuality is complicated. Video games really can’t at this point, devote the kinds of time, effort, and attention required to pull it off in a mature and realistic way. So, instead of having Hawke, for instance, navigate the complicated emotional bonds he/she has formed and forging a romance with someone who is fundamentally compatible with him/her, Hawke instead finds the cute one and hits buttons until they get mad rutty.
25/08/2011 at 19:43 Wulf says:
I would like to note that Mr. Arcade Israel Gannon is an honest-to-goodness gay character, too. He’s not a pansexual, he’s actually gay, and is written that way. In fact, how homosexuality is handled in New Vegas in general is… amazing. It really is. The thing is is that there’s a perk you can pick up to open up those conversation lines. Now I understand why they did it that way, it’s because it might unnerve their larger but less sexually secure demographic, but it is there.
The NCR? Fascists, so the gay folk among their ranks are almost terrified to admit it, but you can talk them into letting you know. Whereas people in more liberal areas might be more willing to openly admit it. It was a nice parallel of the Internet today, really. And Arcade was a very subtly written but open gay, and really, Arcade was probably the most open-minded game character I’ve encountered in general. He was always a joy to take with me. Raoul too… he had open-mindedness written all over him. He wasn’t a gay option but you could tell that he was a very tolerant person. I won’t spoil too much there, though.
But I’d like to see more of what New Vegas did, really. With relationships actually tailored to gay people as much as straight people. Writers can always be hired for this, after all. Pansexuality is nice and all, but… having proper gay relationships available is even better.
25/08/2011 at 11:03 Daniel Rivas says:
“You’d imagine gaming would lead the way on more liberal values”
Why?
25/08/2011 at 11:10 The Sombrero Kid says:
New media is generally exclusive to progressivists.
25/08/2011 at 11:35 V. Profane says:
Video games are decades old though. We’re not talking about Google+.
25/08/2011 at 14:41 Starky says:
Actually as mentioned by someone else above, new media is almost always conservative in the extreme in it’s mainstream productions.
First radio, then motion pictures, then TV were all ultra conservative at first had very strict codes, didn’t release anything too shocking or edgy, and only over time have they become more liberal in their values (except for some networks). It is because all the major studios are paranoid about pushing the boundaries – they can’t risk getting banned or getting massive public backlash that inks their millions of dollars product.
Media chips away, year after year bit by bit – until no one blinks an eye any more.
Hell I remember as a kid there been a big deal made about a character in some soap kissing another male character on screen. It was in the papers and the nation had a massive debate on it (UK).
Now gay couples, gay kissing and affection in soaps is standard, no one cares no one blinks it is just accepted. Even full on gay sex scenes in TV shows don’t cause any controversy any more.
25/08/2011 at 15:29 PopeJamal says:
When you don’t own the IP and you aren’t publishing the game, then you aren’t allowed to make all the decisions. It’s a fact of business. When Bioware asks, “Hey, what about gays?” that is a political issue. Any time you need to try to convince another person to see things your way, or change their mind, you’re using politics in one form or another.
If either Lucas or EA say “No!”, then their only choices are to either not make the game, or not allow homosexual relationships. In fact, I’m pretty sure they signed a contract that said “Yes, we will make a StarWars MMO for you.”, so in that regard, they probably don’t even have a choice.
If you’re worried about the plight of homosexuals in society, the correct and effective place to piss and moan about it is your local representatives office, not the internet.
25/08/2011 at 15:33 Daniel Rivas says:
It’s both, actually, but thanks for your contribution.
25/08/2011 at 23:36 mejoff says:
Don’t they kick you out if you piss in the office?
(also, welcome to Noteverywhereisamerica)
25/08/2011 at 11:03 Diziet Sma says:
The simple answer surely is that it’s something that George Lucas does not approve of and as such cannot be present in Star Wars lore. Can any, better read, reader of RPS state any Star Wars fiction that includes such a relationship, especially in a non-demonised role?
25/08/2011 at 11:05 matty_gibbon says:
I was about to ask this very same question. Surely somewhere in the extended universe there is a homosexual or bi character?
25/08/2011 at 11:10 TheDreido says:
I think Yoda was bi.
25/08/2011 at 11:20 Simon Hawthorne says:
I’m pretty sure Juhani from KOTOR was at least Bisexual – which makes it weirder that TOR doesn’t include same sex relationships.
25/08/2011 at 11:20 Unaco says:
There are multiple openly homosexual characters in the Star Wars canon…. Or, at the least someone more read in the Star Wars stuff claims there are in this thread:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?1124-The-Nature-of-SW-TOR
They reckon this ISN’T a George Lucas decision, but is instead BioWare Austin “Dropping the Ball”.
25/08/2011 at 11:21 Dubbill says:
Some googling leads to a married gay Mandalorian couple who have an adopted daughter, earning them huge amount of conservative-bothering points: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Medrit_Vasur
25/08/2011 at 13:35 El Armonista! says:
IIRC Juhani and Bastila were open to same-sex relationships in KOTOR 1, and Visas Marr and Handmaiden were in KOTOR 2 (I must admit though that I’m slightly more hazy on that point).
Granted, both of the situations refer to women who are potentially bisexual, I’m not at all sure if there were men NPCs open to similar relationships with a male PC.
Either way, it’s right weird to say that the situation doesn’t exist in the context of the Old Republic games.
25/08/2011 at 20:00 Wulf says:
@Dubbill
Thanks for posting that. I would have if you hadn’t. But yes, there are instances of gay couples in the Star Wars Universe. So it is canon and lore. If Bioware wanted they could make an argument from that position just to see where it gets them. I’m not even saying it would get them anywhere, but presenting a precedent to whomever is denying gay relationships might at least have interesting results. Results which I would love to see publicised.
25/08/2011 at 11:03 Shiny says:
It is really tiresome to listen to people banging their drum about real-life hot button social issues being represented according to their preferences in games that are pure fantasy and created solely for the purpose of entertainment.
And I’m pro-gay rights/marriage. I can only imagine how silly all this sounds to people with a different point of view.
25/08/2011 at 11:05 Daniel Rivas says:
Well, fuck them? I’m not sure what your point is.
25/08/2011 at 11:13 Shiny says:
The point is that most games, including all of the ones mentioned in this story, aren’t attempting to advocate any sort of value system at all, liberal or otherwise. Thus, we should not be surprised that they aren’t implementing features that implicitly support one group’s values over another’s. Entertainment for the masses is usually designed not to offend anyone unless it is critical to the integrity of the product (e.g., violence in a blockbuster action movie).
And the people who are pushing for games to take sides and positions just come off as preachy extremists who can’t leave their politics at the door when it’s appropriate.
25/08/2011 at 11:24 John Walker says:
You’re aware that being gay isn’t a political stance, right?
25/08/2011 at 11:31 ReV_VAdAUL says:
The nature of privilege means that the privileged groups in society get things generally how they want them and think this is only natural. It is thus perplexing and annoying for them when other groups in society wish to be catered to too.
So in this case heterosexual relationships in a game are the norm and thus seen as neutral. Homosexual relationships are mildly different and thus annoying to have to consider, even for alleged progressives. These “progressives” are fine in principle with gay people having rights and such but when it means they personally have to make the tiniest sacrifices it gets their back up.
25/08/2011 at 11:33 Okami says:
But I’m offended by straight marriage and religion and still most games try to shove gods and straight relationships in my face.
And violence. I’m offended by violence, why do gamers insist on resolving any conflict by application of force? Surely the idea that the world is a better place if you have a gun and kill a lot of people with it is inherently political, isn’t it?
So why do game developers feel the need to force their political belief in my entertainment.
25/08/2011 at 11:34 Simon Hawthorne says:
I think the point these ‘others’ would respond with is that by including heterosexual relationships but not homosexual ones, the game is already representing a ‘certain point of view’.
25/08/2011 at 11:39 Prime says:
“Use Force, Luke…”
Sorry. Couldn’t resist.
…and neither could Luke.
25/08/2011 at 12:05 Stevostin says:
“You’re aware that being gay isn’t a political stance, right?”
IMO, everything that comes down to rights involves political stances. There are moral laws – what the community find acceptable. Ancient Greeks found acceptable to have same sex actions with children. Medieval age find unacceptable for a women to show her ankles. In between there are limits, with no absolut right or wrong, and gay sex is one of this things. You may think that people not including gay sex in the limit of what’s acceptable to display are regressive, but I am sure you’re not all in for some necrophile action. Point is : everyone has his limits, the average of all limits being nearly always legalised. Law are voted : this is politic. And I am not even speaking about adoption, marriage, etc. That’s why you have a gay community battling for this.
In shorter word : being a midget isn’t a political stance. But you’ll never be offered to play a midget or even see one in game. Because Midgets are politically inexistent. Gays do exist, and push. This is ultimately political.
25/08/2011 at 12:09 Rii says:
@Okami
Heh. And yeah, “we’re apolitical” means “we support the status quo”.
25/08/2011 at 12:26 Shiny says:
“You’re aware that being gay isn’t a political stance, right?”
But putting in significant effort (i.e., development time and resources) into presenting gay marriage as normal, acceptable social behavior is a statement on values. Gay marriage is, as I said a current hot button issue and not something that has been accepted by all cultures worldwide for thousands of years. Taking a position on its normalcy/social acceptability is, in the current environment, a political stance. If it were not a political stance, I would wager that a lot of people who are eager to see it portrayed in games would not care so much.
Doing the same for heterosexual relationships is not a statement on values, as the morality/legality of officially recognized heterosexual relationships is not a contested issue. Therefore, I disagree with Simon Hawthorne’s reply .
25/08/2011 at 12:54 MikoSquiz says:
I’m fairly sure little people (apparently the acceptable term, although it sounds incredibly rude to me) are allowed to get married everywhere, and whatnot. The Disability Pride Parade doesn’t get tear gassed a lot, either.
25/08/2011 at 13:00 Daniel Rivas says:
Of course arguing for equality between sexualities and genders is political. But it’s a totalitarian idea (and the same for the inverse); you can’t be a little bit for gay rights. It’s an idea that can only be sated once it is universal.
The issue is not whether or not these game designers should put gay marriage into their games, but that the question exists at all. It doesn’t have very much to do with games.
25/08/2011 at 13:19 Saul says:
Mmm, not allowing gay relationships is a political stance. So is allowing them. And it has plenty to do with games – they exist in th world, so they don’t get to avoid being political.
25/08/2011 at 14:06 JonasKyratzes says:
Talking about gay relationships being “allowed” in a game makes it seem like we’re comparing it to gay marriage. But we’re not (not only, anyway) – this is an issue of representation. In the real world, there are gay couples, whether they’re allowed to get married or not. Homosexuality is a normal part of humanity, as ancient as the species itself. If you think about it, pretending it doesn’t exist is nothing short of weird.
25/08/2011 at 14:51 Starky says:
@MikoSquiz
I know 2 dwarves, and they both find “little people” stupid and condescending.
Then again both of them actually prefer to be called Hobbits, so it might be just them.
25/08/2011 at 17:00 Johnny99.1 says:
@Stevostin: Being a midget is no more or less political than being gay surely? It’s less contentious because it’s harder for bigots to argue that midgetry was a choice on the part of the midgets.
The disturbing thing to me is how riled people get by having the choice put into a game. It’s not even that your main character is definitely gay (although how that would be any more unreasonable than having him be definitely not gay, or definitely not a midget, or definitely white I have no idea) upsets people. Just putting the option in the game angers people.
None of this is to say that game makers should be obliged to give you the option to play the game as a south asian transvestite heterosexual midget, but not including it is just as much a choice as including it. There is no neutral path, only certain paths look neutral when they conform to what you are used to in your world.
Oh – and I’ve been a dwarf and a hobbit in games far more often than I’ve ever been gay in a game, so when you say ” you’ll never be offered to play a midget or even see one in game..” I think you might want to think again.
25/08/2011 at 17:04 Stevostin says:
“I’m fairly sure little people (apparently the acceptable term, although it sounds incredibly rude to me) are allowed to get married everywhere, and whatnot. The Disability Pride Parade doesn’t get tear gassed a lot, either.”
This is embarassing. Give it a thought. Do you really consider that our societies, the way they’re build, are more suited, give a better, daily life, to a crippled, or to a gay one ? I mean, if you had to choose for yourself ? Do you think it’s easier to get access to most job when you’re less than 3 feet high, or when you’re gay ? To elevator knobs in public building ? Do you really think, for a minute, than being gay give you more ground to ask for adaptation of the society to your interests than when you can’t reach the sink in the male restroom, including the one of the building paid by your taxes?
Seriously ?
25/08/2011 at 17:27 Daniel Rivas says:
It’s less contentious because it doesn’t have anything to do with whom you fuck.
25/08/2011 at 20:02 Wulf says:
Wow…
And there are your prejudices, right there, by someone who claims to support equality. (I call bullshit on that. Anyone can say they do but you can’t post the opposite, say you do, and then expect people to believe it.)
I don’t really need or want to say anything more than that.
(I’m choosing to hold my tongue really because Okami said what I wanted to say but said it better than I could have.)
25/08/2011 at 11:05 Colthor says:
…And in the game?
25/08/2011 at 11:06 BobsLawnService says:
Meh, sometimes it is just not possible to cater to every minority group in every single bit of entertainment out there. I don’t see this as a big deal.
The potential for interspecies erotica in Skyrim should keep those furries happy though.
25/08/2011 at 11:08 Jannakar says:
Yeah, Rule 34 applies. No exceptions.
25/08/2011 at 11:17 BobsLawnService says:
Pardon my ignorance but Rule 34?
25/08/2011 at 11:25 Kaira- says:
Google it, and say goodbye to your childhood memories.
25/08/2011 at 11:28 Buzko says:
@BobsLawnService
Think carefully before googling, especially with safe search off, is the essence of rules 1-34 (and beyond) of the Internet.
25/08/2011 at 11:32 Kollega says:
Boring exposition reply: Rule 34 states that there’s always porn for everything. No exceptions. And Rule 35 says that if there’s no porn of something yet, it will be made sooner or later.
25/08/2011 at 20:08 Wulf says:
There needs to be a Stop the Bullshit site that deals with crap like this.
There’s plenty of nightmare porn out there which doesn’t involve furries and is so, so much more scarring because it involves real world, actual people in situations wherein at least one of the people hasn’t consented and is being forced to suffer. I feel that furries are used as a scapegoat to cover this up.
What furries have as porn is art, and it comes nowhere near the level of nasty normal porn that I’ve seen out there. Anything else is just picking on a group of people just because you can. So let’s cut the bullshit, please. That’s what you’re doing. It’s prejudice plain and simple. Just because you can.
It makes you no different than gay bashers or any other group of people who’re responsible for hate speech. I’m sure some will hotly hit that reply button with a kneejerk response, but at least think before you do and try to see things from other perspectives.
(Here’s a book I bought and read recently. It’d be interesting if anyone could point out what’s so scarring about that. Furry porn exists, yes, but that’s not what furry is about, it’s just an aspect of it. Just as porn is an aspect of life in general.)
25/08/2011 at 11:06 Evil Otto says:
“With Dragon Age and Mass Effect both including same-sex coupling, it’s clearly not an issue BioWare has across the board – in fact their probably the most forward-thinking and inclusive developer out there”
I can smell Lucas’ influence somehow. The Star Wars prequels are a testament to his perception of romantic relationships.
25/08/2011 at 11:07 Teddy Leach says:
I don’t want a relationship with a load of polygons. I just want to stab them.
25/08/2011 at 11:57 jrodman says:
while I’m sometimes sad as a gay gamer, having one aspect of my own self entirely absent from so many games (while heteroseuxality is well represented), I feel a much stronger correspondance with this position.
I usually am tired by romantic or sexual elements in my games. Somtimes it’s because I have to do some stupid quest series to choose which of the various women my (uniformly) male character will date. Yeah, it’s just some pixels and yeah it’s not me, but why am i supposed to be making this choice anyway? It’s unimmersive because it’s a multiple choice of no choices I would make, but it’s also unimmersive because I DONT CARE. “no romantic crap for me please” should be a choice in most of these creations.
25/08/2011 at 12:04 Hanban says:
This is a sentiment I can respect.
But if one includes relationships at all, I think it makes sense to include same-sex relationships as well.
These are my ‘dollars’. Because my opinions are worth much you see!
25/08/2011 at 11:07 Juan Carlo says:
It’s nice to have gay and lesbian relationships, but I really don’t like the “everyone you meet is bi” model. Not for any reason other than it doesn’t seem realistic and it doesn’t serve for more interesting characters. I want to play a game where:
1. Characters are either written as gay, straight, or bi–which makes certain characters as unromance-able
2. There is a certain amount of stigma over homosexual relationships (just because I think it makes for more interesting characters and writing if there’s a certain level of homophobia in the game’s universe). Wouldn’t it immediately make the characters way more interesting if in the next Bioware game, for example, certain members of your party are horrified and even hostile when your character “comes out”?
Also, just to piss off all the fans who always bitch about homosexuality in Bioware games, in Dragon Age 3 I hope that they make gay sex a requirement in one of the main quests. Like, in order to stop the new blight Hawke has to totally bang Alister in the ass.
25/08/2011 at 11:12 The Sombrero Kid says:
snap :D
25/08/2011 at 11:26 Jumwa says:
Call me crazy, but I like the Elder Scrolls approaching to such issues. Racism and homophobia are mostly non-existent or (in the case of racism) low key and seemingly only directed at the beast races.
It just gets tiresome enough dealing with irrational hate in the real world as is. Having our every fantasy and fiction revolve around the negative gets tedious to me.
25/08/2011 at 11:30 1R0N_W00K13 says:
This is exactly my thought. Homosexuality has a place in gaming, it’s as important in today’s culture as heterosexuality and needs to be represented, but almost every game which acknowledges this at the moment has this concept that if someone is romance-able, they are open to any relationship whatsoever. To do this properly, characters who aren’t homosexual are needed as much as characters who are, and your affiliation both opens and closes romance options to you.
25/08/2011 at 11:33 Buzko says:
I’d be interested to see a game where homosexuality was the norm, and heterosexuality was this squicky behaviour adopted only out of duty. Or something. Obviously that could get spun badly, but the norms of this world (or even this point in time) are not the only ones available.
25/08/2011 at 11:34 c-Row says:
You could make it a QTE driven mini-game.
25/08/2011 at 11:38 Simon Hawthorne says:
Of course, it’d be nice to play an RPG where you’re a burly man and the foxy lady is hetero but genuinely isn’t interested in you. Not in a “Oh I’m not interested BUT I LOVE YOU” way but in “she’s nice, you’re nice, but she doesn’t like you” way. Get on with your job and stop thinking about her pants.
25/08/2011 at 11:39 Juan Carlo says:
I don’t mind the “it’s not a big deal” take on the topic myself, but it’s been done too many times before. In fact, every game I recall more or less takes that approach (not to mention other supposedly “revolutionary” treatments of the topic in sci-fi/fantasy like “Battle Star Galactica.”)
Like I said, I just think that it would make for a more interesting story, universe, and characters if they complicated things a bit much. Games like this already deal with topics of prejudice and racism, so prejudice over sexuality shouldn’t be too much of a leap.
But truly good writing is SUCH a rarity in video games anyway that maybe I’m asking too much. Even if a company like bioware would take my advice, the results would still probably be as 1 dimensional and shallow as their other treatments of controversial topics (like racism, for example).
25/08/2011 at 11:45 Sheng-ji says:
While I kind of agree that it’s a bit weird that every character will swing all ways in Skyrim, especially with the Elder Scrolls underlying theme of racism, it at least does cater for every choice. What’s interesting to me though is the formation of relationships, not the act of sex. For instance, I live with a person. I make them breakfast every morning, they make my lunch every day. We spend most of our free time together, we have our own interests but mostly they are shared. We have known each other for 15 years, having met on our first drunken night at uni.
Now have I just described my husband or my best friend? (I live with both) To really know the answer to that you need to know sleeping arrangements with this person, whether we hold hands or kiss and any other of the cringeworthy “romance” options you get in games.
By all means give us the tools to define relationships with who we want, but don’t force it to be a sexual relationship, that’s all I’m really trying to say.
Oh and Buzco – that would make for some really interesting story themes – procreation being a problem for that society, they may force all adults on reaching maturity to have sex with the opposite gender to ensure the continuation of the next generation – which to them would be the equivalent of every 18 year old being forced to have a physical homosexual encounter in our society!
25/08/2011 at 11:47 jon_hill987 says:
@Simon Hawthorne: I have not got all the way through it yet but Hunted: The Demon Forge seems to be like that.
25/08/2011 at 11:50 Rinox says:
Call me crazy, but I like the Elder Scrolls approaching to such issues. Racism and homophobia are mostly non-existent or (in the case of racism) low key and seemingly only directed at the beast races.
Wait what? Racism pervades the entire TES universe. Maybe it wasn’t as clear in Oblivion as before, but still. The beast races are sentient/intelligent beings that just look differently, so I don’t really see how it’s ‘better’ if the racism is just directed towards them. Khajit and Argonians are widely regarded as thieves, criminals and held as slaves. I don’t see how this is subtle tbh. They rarely ever hold any position of power in Tamriel (maybe that’ll change once we see their homelands).
Redguards are mocked because of their dark skin too, and the Dunmer are a xenophobic bunch of a-holes to say the least. And Nords are regarded as dumb, hickisch brutes. So yeah, racism…definitely there.
25/08/2011 at 12:11 MikoSquiz says:
I’d like to see it genuinely come up as an issue. (I’m pretty sure it’s established somewhere in lore that the Khajiiti just do not give a fuck who or what anyone is banging, but I’d imagine the Imperials could be a fair bit grumpier about it, since they’re the closest thing the universe has to Catholics.) Morrowind had racism and slavery, remember?
EDIT: Graw! Half a dozen posts about racism in The Elder Scrolls between my starting to write that and posting it. Anyway, yes, from “Ahzirr Traajijazeri, the Public Manifesto of the Renrijra Krin”, a hand-to-hand skill book in Oblivion:
“Fusozay Var Var”: “Enjoy Life”
Life is short. If you have not made love recently, please, put down this book, and take care of that with all haste. Find a wanton lass or a frisky lad, or several, in whatever combination your wise loins direct, and do not under any circumstances play hard to get. Our struggle against the colossal forces of oppression can wait.
25/08/2011 at 13:39 El Armonista! says:
@c-Row
Pah to your QTE mini-game. I demand it be Kinect enabled, or nothing!
25/08/2011 at 15:53 Jumwa says:
@Rinox
I should’ve been clearer, I was trying to say: it’s pretty low key except in the cases of the beast races.
Morrowind was obviously a bit different, as the Dunmer were extremely xenophobic. But Oblivion definitely took a different turn.
If you break down the racism in Oblivion in real world terms even, then yes, it’s pretty darn bad. Though for a fantasy game with such a big racial mix it’s still pretty mild compared to a lot of others I’m familiar with. After all, the Nerevarine can turn out to be an Argonian.
25/08/2011 at 20:25 Wulf says:
@Jumwa
Except that’s not true at all. I’m not sure if you’ve played Morrowind (which I have recently) but in that there’s racism to go around. Between the Ashlanders, the various types of Mer, and even misogyny. (There is so much misogyny. Though a lot of it seems to come from the nords.)
There is slavery, yes, though that does get abolished thanks to the Twin Lamps. (Bless ‘em.) However, there’s less actual racism there, it’s more that the rich people of Morrowind use them as cheap labour simply because they can, and there’s this whole sense of ‘pretend racism’ surrounding that just to help them justify their use of slave labour.
Perhaps these are areas of the lore you never really dug into in your questing, but I did, and… yeah, Morrowind has loads of racism, misogyny, and general hate. It’s all over the place. You just have to take the time to stop and talk to the NPCs. There was next to no racism in Oblivion, by comparison, but there was no slavery either. It seems like the Imperials are actually pretty good at dealing with that. Hell, if the Imperials took better care of their poor then I could actually learn to respect them.
That’s the biggest issue in Oblivion really – the poor. If the Imperials could get a handle on that then Cyrodiil would end up becoming a sort of paradise. There are the beginnings of government subsidy going on there though, what with free newspapers and whatnot. To be honest, and to go off on a bit of a segue, I’d actually like to see this as something to do in a future Bethesda game: Managing the empire but not simply in whom one goes to war with, but in how people are treated. Setting up free medical centres, schooling, and so on, based upon taxes.
But I digress.
25/08/2011 at 20:32 Wulf says:
@MikoSquiz
You are correct! I’m a big fan of the lore in Bethesda games (especially in Morrowind) and it has come up with both books and NPCs (though I believe it’s mostly mentioned in books). The Khajiit don’t actually have taboos in regards to sex, they don’t work that way, because a Khajiit is a Khajiit, as someone who walks the desert. But you have to understand that a race where bipedal felines are likely having sex with sentient and consenting quadrupedal tigers, then you have to have a degree of open-mindedness.
I think that’s what it stems from, really. The Khajiiti, as a word, means ‘people who walk the desert,’ so all Khajiiti are the same. In this way they even have a lot of equality, a lot of equality. To be honest, the more I dug into the lore, the more I learned to respect the Khajiiti peoples due to this.
To be honest, I’d love to see a gay relationship between a Suthay-raht (the Khajiit we commonly saw in Morrowind) and a Phamar (sentient quadrupedal tiger), just to tweak some mental nipples. (Not as in something the player plays, just as prominent characters in the player’s story.)
But yes, in some ways, the Khajiiti have a model society.
25/08/2011 at 20:43 Jumwa says:
@ Wulf
Morrowind is my favourite RPG of all time, I’ve sunk in hundreds of hours. And yes, I’m aware of the occurrence of racism in that game.
However, I was speaking of the Elder Scrolls as a whole and where it’s gone now (or seems to be going at least), and as you say, Oblivion had practically none. Morrowind was a very gritty game with an extremely deep and “realistic” setting. All the same, settings with more drastic racism did come to mind than even Morrowind, like in Star Wars for instance, since that’s part of the topic.
But with Oblivion and the events that have transpired in the first novel, it seems to me they’ve set up the Elder Scrolls to break down those old racial hatreds. I guess we’ll find out.
25/08/2011 at 11:07 The Sombrero Kid says:
they should write the characters with their sexuality in mind – I want every one in my game to be bisexual as little as I want everyone in my game to be straight.
25/08/2011 at 11:48 jon_hill987 says:
Agreed, it just doesn’t make sense the way they do it now.
25/08/2011 at 11:08 Raziel_Alex says:
+1 for Bethesda. Growing up is nice.
25/08/2011 at 11:09 Tei says:
My character sex gender is Forever Alone.
I finished Mass Effect 2 focusing on saving the galaxy. I was surprised to know that while I was fighting the aliens, everybody was in bed with everyone.
25/08/2011 at 11:21 Similar says:
Maybe that explains why it’s so often up to one single person to save the universe…
25/08/2011 at 11:36 c-Row says:
I was surprised to know that while I was fighting the aliens, everybody was in bed with everyone.
And in the game.
25/08/2011 at 11:55 Rinox says:
:-D
Actually, it’s not unusual for people in dangerous situations to party and sex it up – Sarajevo nightlife in the nineties comes to mind. Must be that impending doom that makes you go “what the hell”.
25/08/2011 at 12:25 jon_hill987 says:
The benefit of this is it prevents the old “You can save the world or your one true love, but you can’t do both mwahahahahaha!” trick that villains like to try on romantically attached heroes.
25/08/2011 at 19:05 Hematite says:
@Tei:
Totally agree. My Shepard (the real Shepard) is an athletic medium-black man with a handlebar mustache and an imaginary sheriff’s star pinned to his chest. There’s no time for lovin’ until he’s done killin’.
He is a total stud though.
25/08/2011 at 11:09 StingingVelvet says:
In the 80′s everyone openly mocked homosexuals.
In the 90′s everyone said “I don’t care, just don’t throw it in my face.”
In the 00′s it seemed like every producer’s mission to make sure his movie/show/game had a gay character and addressed gay issues.
Hopefully the 10′s will be the decade where it can just stop being a topic anyone cares about. I honestly don’t care who anyone else is fucking/loving/marrying, just who I am.
25/08/2011 at 11:17 Prime says:
“In the 00′s it seemed like every producer’s mission to make sure his movie/show/game had a gay character and addressed gay issues.”
Russell T Davies, we’re scowling at you.
25/08/2011 at 11:30 StingingVelvet says:
@ Prime
Yeah, great example.
25/08/2011 at 11:41 drakmaniso says:
I think a lot of LGBT people dream of a world like this (where sexual orientation is just a private matter, not a big social concern). At least I do.
The problem is, today many suffer because they are not heterosexual. Suicide rate is awfully high among young gays. Things get better, but unfortunately it’ll take more than a decade to solve this.
So yes, I believe that games, and media in general, have a responsability toward such topics. I understand it can be annoying and feel invasive for many people. But seeing a badass LGBT character in a game can mean a lot for someone who has noone to rely on in real life, which is the case for many teenagers (and some adults too). It’s also an effective way to fight the prejudices against LGBTs, which are still way too common.
25/08/2011 at 11:43 Ovno says:
Well you do have to remember Russel T Davies did Queer as Folk, so its not like bringing in gay characters to his other series was really a suprise….
25/08/2011 at 19:40 StingingVelvet says:
@ Drakmaniso
The problem is whenever there is a homosexual character in fiction now-a-days that tends to be what their whole world is about, which is annoying to me and condescending to you.
25/08/2011 at 20:47 drakmaniso says:
@StingingVelvet: Yes, I agree with that. Fortunately, this not always the case. E.g. the TV Show Torchwood, of the already mentioned Russell T Davies, is a great example of bisexual characters that are not focused on their orientation. Willow and Tara (from Buffy) are another wonderful example.
25/08/2011 at 21:01 Wulf says:
@drakmaniso
Well said, really, thank you.
I think that a lot of the media injecting gay characters into things is just them trying to counterbalance the hate that’s present elsewhere, even in other parts of the media, even today. As you pointed out, suicide rates are still high, and this is because gay people are still catching shit for simply being gay. I know from experience that it’s not as bad as it was in the ’70s and the ’80s, but it’s still bad.
Sometimes what can help is a role model. Now what a lot of people don’t get (even some of the commentators directly above) is that there are plenty of heterosexual role models, but not that many homosexual ones. Seeing a gay character stand up in a show, openly being gay, and then saving the day can mean a lot to young gay people. I can’t say I’m the biggest fan of RTD or his writing (often he gets on my nerves) but I do kind of like what he’s doing with Captain Jack. Especially in the new Torchwood series.
In fact, in the new Torchwood series more than ever he seems to have figured out what he wants to do with Jack. The show does not revolve around Jack being gay, but it does offer Jack as… well, almost a gay superhero, to put it that way. And that’s great for gay people to see. Because without that it looks like gay people are unwanted, something to be brushed under the carpet and forgotten, where the heterosexual heroes are shiny, and super-important, and the gay people are somehow lesser or inferior.
So whilst it may be annoying to the likes of StingingVelvet, I think that what’s going on right now is completely necessary and will continue to be necessary for a long time to come. When the world stops hating gays so much, then the media can then stop making such a big deal about gay role models, or gay supperheroes, or simply gays in positions of power where hate doesn’t matter, or where they’re supported. But in a world which does still have so much hate for gay people, it’s still needed.
And whomever it annoys… well, deal with it? Just keep in mind that it’s helping someone.
25/08/2011 at 11:10 4026 says:
“Bethesda’s PR boss, Pete Hines, confirmed on Twitter that you can shack up with whomever you wish. Which presumably also introduces the complexity of cross-species relationships as well as sex.”
Fox News must not be allowed to hear of this.
25/08/2011 at 11:10 Kollega says:
I’m totally with you there, John.
On topic: there is one thing i really don’t get about this. Why is that medieval fantasy RPGs (Dragon Age, Skyrim) have less trouble with including same-sex relationships than the science-fiction ones (Mass Effect, The Old Republic) when logically it should be the other way around? I mean, isn’t this kind of thing should be more accepted in a space-future than in the medieval era? I’ve heard the argument that since it’s medieval fantasy, it’s social norms may be more accepting than that of the real Middle Ages, but shouldn’t futuristic settings be at least as accepting, if not more so?
25/08/2011 at 11:20 Dawngreeter says:
Fantasy is generally recognized as ‘past’, so morality, as understood by puritanically minded people, can be lax and people will chalk that up to barbarism. Sci-Fi is recognized as ‘future’ and people want to believe theirs are the views which shape the correct and virtuous evolution of human societies. Even if said views do not include evolution.
What this means, of course, is that we need more Orc Catholics.
25/08/2011 at 11:28 Kollega says:
Except that puritanically-minded people don’t form the entire human population, and most likely not even a half of it. So for the other side, the crazy liberals, the barbarism would be witch hunts with torches and pitchforks, while the correct evolution of the human society would entail more acceptance, making-love-and-not-war, and other such things. And honestly? I have a hard time believing that only puritans play or make videogames, or even that only they finance and market them. This just dosen’t seem realistic. So my
argumentquestion still stands.25/08/2011 at 11:34 Dawngreeter says:
There is a difference between beliefs individuals hold and the beliefs that the society these individuals form holds. The gap between the two can be huge. It is the path of least resistance to assume you’re making a product for the world as it was ten or twenty years ago.
I’d support your argument, though, if you’d just tell me what it was. I only saw a question about not getting something.
25/08/2011 at 11:53 Kollega says:
Oh wait… yeah, it’s not an argument, it’s a question :P *facepalm*
And i see your point about “safety”. Still, it feels more than a little odd that in the supposedly “barbaric” fantasy there are same-sex relationships and no-one is trying to kill the characters for having them – but in the future, they supposedly don’t exist at all.
25/08/2011 at 14:55 Saiko Kila says:
Medieval persecution of homosexuals had nothing to do with it being medieval. There were societes and times it wasn’t enforced, and there is literature about the subject. And in future to medieval times, i.e. modern times, there were and are persecution of homosexuals in many places – from Nazi Germany to most African countries today. Imagine what ancient Greeks, from states where it was widespread, would have said about homosexuality in future like 1000 or 2000 years later, if they had known it. Maybe the times depicted in the Star Wars series have some cultural connection to Nazis…
25/08/2011 at 16:31 pH-unbalanced says:
As a fantasy writer who has spent plenty of time around both fantasy authors and science fiction authors, this doesn’t surprise me at all. It says as much about the type of people who are drawn to each genre as anything else — and I don’t mean their politics. The approach you take to writing the genres is just very different.
Fantasy gives you more creative freedom — you don’t have to accept any preconditions to your story at all. And you don’t have to spend any time explaining how or why things are different than ‘our’ world, because for the people in that world there isn’t that standard of comparison. Science Fiction is more about extrapolating from present day trends, so you have to engage with how things are now, and how they change (or don’t) so you really have to do the mental work to get ‘there’ from ‘here.’ This means present day prejudices are more likely to be baked in, especially if commenting on them isn’t the point of what the author is writing.
25/08/2011 at 21:26 Wulf says:
@pH-unbalanced
That’s… a very interesting point. Thanks for sharing!
I’ve made a similar argument myself. Not relating to sexuality but in regards to what we hold as standards in our reality. If I want to write a science-fantasy story about another reality, then I set the standards, because they are my people and my creations. But in Science-Fiction I can understand what you’re saying about it being ‘near earth.’ Unless you’re dealing with far, far future stuff, at which point it becomes science-fantasy anyway.
To be honest, this is why science-fantasy is one of my favourite genres, because it becomes less about pissing over why something doesn’t work, and more about having the imagination to say why it does. As in your own reality – what you say goes, and no one can really counter that in any meaningful way. People can try to use near-earth standards to disprove the merits of your reality (and they will, because some are just lacking in the creative will to do anything else) but at the end of the day their efforts will just be for naught, because your world isn’t a near-earth world. It’s something completely different.
If you want to have water flowing up, you can do that, because your reality doesn’t have to obey the standard physical laws or elemental compositions of a near-earth reality. And if you want to do something completely unheard of with your society (kind of as I did with mine) then you can, because it doesn’t have to obey any modern societal standards. And again, you’re not dealing with humanity, which brings up an interesting point – why not aliens?
Now, aliens are a fun point because with an alien race you really don’t have to be apropos of anything human. You can just create something totally out there. Like the Liir in Sword of the Stars, and the Pkunk in Star Control II (two of my favourite alien races). In the case of the Liir, I’d imagine that they’re completely fine with all sorts of sexuality. Why? They’re psychic! What this means for their race is that whenever they cause pain, they feel it, they feel the hurt, they feel all of it. So the Liir, as a race, in general are very, very reluctant to cause pain. And this has resulted in them becoming an incredibly tolerant and open-minded society, simply because no one understands why you would want to cause suffering like that.
This is one reason why I wish more fantasy authors would use alien races to show how things could be done differently. Sure, for humans you may have to obey near-earth societal standards, but for aliens it could be completely different. As is evidenced in the case of the Liir. Now, in Mass Effect 2 we have a lot of aliens which all have very near-earth societies or analogies of them. That’s a shame. The first society that didn’t have an analogy of a near-earth society in Mass Effect 2 (the Geth) almost made me jump out of my seat and squeal with joy.
That’s why the Geth are my favourite race in Mass Effect 2, because (bad guys included) they are the most alien as they don’t obey near-earth conventions for societal standards. They’re actually a truly anarchical super-commune where every unit gets a vote, they’re something that couldn’t work for humans or near-future humans. We’d need a lot of work, evolution, and integrated technology before we could become something like the Geth.
So, to that end, whilst we can’t use humanity in science-fiction to explore these things, we CAN use aliens.
25/08/2011 at 11:11 noom says:
So I guess what Star Wars is trying to teach us is that a) gayness is not allowed, & b) incest is fine, just as long as you don’t know about it.
25/08/2011 at 11:27 Unaco says:
There are, apparently, according to a reader of the literature, plenty of LGB characters in the Star Wars Universe.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?1124-The-Nature-of-SW-TOR
So no, Star Wars is not saying that Gayness is not allowed.
25/08/2011 at 21:34 Wulf says:
Yep. There are gay relationships in Star Wars, there’s even a gay married couple in there, so this really isn’t a Star Wars thing. In the literature it’s far more open-minded. I think that perhaps Mr. Lucas is afraid that the gaming mainstream will be alienated by the presence of gay relationships in TOR.
I actually like Star Wars myself. It has a lot of interesting settings and races, and some of it I’m a fanboy of, I won’t deny that. It’s just a shame that the films and games opt for the most boring parts possible. So I’m not surprised that TOR has chosen to be like this, to be honest, as it displays the same sorts of stagnation that the Star Wars films would have the IP wallow in. The books are much better. Much, much better.
(And this is how I can be a fanboy of Star Wars but not so much the games or films. But KoTOR II was a little better in this regards, it did pull at least a little from the atmosphere of the books.)
25/08/2011 at 11:16 Yosharian says:
Uh. What. The Old Republic doesn’t support same sex relationships… In what way does a fucking MMO support relationships at all?
25/08/2011 at 11:25 Juan Carlo says:
That’s what I was wondering. I didn’t think you could usually marry NPCs in MMOs anyway, so what’s the big deal?
Plus, if you want to have a gay relationship with another human player in game there’s really nothing stopping you.
25/08/2011 at 11:28 John Walker says:
It’s good when you don’t know about something to just angrily swear! Good work!
TOR, like KOTOR before it, and indeed all BioWare games, has the possibility of relationships with the game’s NPCs.
25/08/2011 at 11:46 Juan Carlo says:
Oh, yeah, that’s a definite double standard then.
I didn’t realize you could romance opposite sex NPCs.
25/08/2011 at 12:42 LennyLeonardo says:
I’m not aware of this ‘Fucking MMO’ subgenre, but I’d imagine they support fucking.
25/08/2011 at 21:47 jezcentral says:
@LennyLeonardo, Please! Are you saying you haven’t heard of Second Life? :)
25/08/2011 at 11:17 Dawngreeter says:
Seeing how Star Wars is based around an order of future-past Catholic ninjas, I’m not surprised.
25/08/2011 at 21:37 Wulf says:
Some parts of Star Wars, you mean?
And frankly, it’s often the least interesting parts, by a wide margin. There are things going on elsewhere in the Star Wars Universe which are much more interesting than them.
25/08/2011 at 11:19 Airsoftslayer93 says:
Was the cat lady in Kotor a lesbian?
25/08/2011 at 11:21 Theoban says:
I’m happy for all those wishing to sex different genders in Skyrim, really. Very happy for you.
But where’s the love for me? All I want is the ability to slip it to a mud crab. Just one mud crab, with their hot legs and that sexy carapace.
Bethesda you have let me and my fellow mud crab sexers down
25/08/2011 at 11:22 Prime says:
BAN THIS SICK FILTH!
25/08/2011 at 11:33 BobsLawnService says:
If it is any consolation you can fuck a cat…
25/08/2011 at 11:33 LowKey says:
appropriate -
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/04/01
25/08/2011 at 11:34 qptain Nemo says:
Modding, mate, that’s exactly what modding is for.
25/08/2011 at 11:53 V. Profane says:
YIFF AND TEAR!
25/08/2011 at 21:38 Wulf says:
Sigh.
25/08/2011 at 11:22 Motsew says:
Who gives a flying fuck? It’s a game not an equal rights political simulator.
25/08/2011 at 11:24 Prime says:
Great question: are there are species in either game that would sex you while flying? What about the Geonosians? Or Watto’s race, whatever they’re called?
25/08/2011 at 11:51 pipman3000 says:
Who gives a flying fuck?
Quite a few people Friend Motsew :p
25/08/2011 at 21:39 Wulf says:
I’m now reminded of Pern, in which ‘fly’ has been used as a euphemism of sex.
25/08/2011 at 11:33 MiniMatt says:
Honestly at the moment I’d really rather just have games which have *no* reference to sexuality or relationships or any of that guff regardless of whether they’ve got boy pixels or lady pixels underneath their dragonhide thong of defence +4.
Videogame sex & relationship plots always just seem so unbelievably cringeworthy, it’s like they’re crowbarred into games which are primarily about shooting orcs in the face, copy filed by 12 year olds and then cleaned up by a PR department trying to be all things to all men/women/aliens/orcs.
I still recall my other half watching me play Witcher, “so you’re going to have sex with her too are you?”, “yes dear, I have to in order to complete my playing card collection.”
I mean, you’re on a quest to save the universe, it runs over a timespan of say a month. Now I don’t know about anyone else but I can go several months, years even, at my chosen profession (which, admittedly, is not quite so grand as “Saviour of the Known World”) without constantly getting leered at, chatted up by, and jumping into bed with my co-workers. Though I am an ugly fecker :o)
Just because you’re on a quest to save the world doesn’t mean you have to have sex with everything that moves. Pretend your virtual self is quite happy in a relationship already, just wants to get on with work without jumping the bones of all your co-workers :o)
25/08/2011 at 12:34 Megadyptes says:
I was going to post something along this lines, but you saved me the hassle. +1, or whatever it is the cool kids get up to these days.
25/08/2011 at 18:08 Moonracer says:
if saving the world didn’t get me laid every night I probably wouldn’t bother.
25/08/2011 at 21:41 Wulf says:
It sounds like you haven’t done the relationship bit with Arcade Gannon in New Vegas.
You should. You really, really should. It’s very well done, it’s frankly one of the better relationships I’ve seen done in a game. Alongside Ahnassi and Ruined-Tail’s Tale. I’d like to see more of that sort of thing, to be honest. Not just about the sex, but forming a bond with a character.
25/08/2011 at 11:34 el_Chi says:
“Not hush hush, just not making a huge deal out of it. ”
Personally I’d say that’s the most progressive and grown-up treatment of gay relationships.
Going our of your way to point out how forward-thinking you are by including them gays makes it something novelty, which isn’t quite the same as acceptance.
25/08/2011 at 14:58 Hallgrim says:
Edit: I just re-read what you wrote, and realized I misunderstood you. Apologies.
I don’t get this attitude at all. Multiple developers are already “going out of their way” to write story lines and dialog trees, create NPCs, record voice for the NPCs, etc. They’re just doing it for ONE sexuality, and not asking themselves: “should we pay attention to the 10% (made up statistics ftw) of the population that is not straight?”
25/08/2011 at 11:39 Very Real Talker says:
“You’d imagine gaming would lead the way on more liberal values, but it’s surprising still how rare LGBT characters are in games”
yeah because a genre dominated by the fetishization of guns and violence just scream liberalism and tolerance for queer people to me.
Note that I’m not complaining and I’m happy that LGBT people are still not widely accepted in games. But I can’t imagine why would you associate gaming to liberal values
25/08/2011 at 11:57 Kollega says:
Action games, mostly FPSes and TPSes, is the genre that is dominated by the fetishization of guns and violence. The medium of gaming as a whole… not so much. It’s like saying that comic books are dominated by saving people from burning buildings and vigilante justice just because it’s what superheroes usually do (not all comic books are even about superheroes, and not all superhero comics are about rescues and vigilantism).
I do see your point, i’m just saying that it’s shooters, and not gaming in general, that fall under it.
25/08/2011 at 11:39 Lars Westergren says:
>BioWare has across the board – in fact they’re probably the most forward-thinking and inclusive developer out there.
“One of the most” maybe. But it’s a sadly small field.
I think Obsidian beats for the number one place easily. Bioware almost always include bisexual characters yes, but to me it feels very “token”. It’s the same dialogue choices and same responses, just voiced by a same sex voice actor this time. When Obsidian write outsider characters it feels more believable, the characters more fleshed out. And there is more gay/bi characters in the game than just that one team member you can flirt with, or who react to the fact that same sex relationships exist. (Just remembered – Juhani in Kotor is a nice exception though.)
25/08/2011 at 13:01 Keymonk says:
I liked how in FONV Cass handled finding out the main character was lesbian if you had the Cherchez LaFemme (?) perk. She got slightly surprised, a bit flustered and awkwardly explained how she totally doesn’t mind who she ends up in bed with if she’s drunk. Still wasn’t interested, though. I thought it was pretty nice.
25/08/2011 at 19:19 Hematite says:
@Keymonk:
I think New Vegas was the best I’ve seen in that regard. The only minor complaint I can make is that while Arcade and Veronica were gay it was quite obvious that there had been a developer checklist somewhere with that said “Gay characters: male [ ] female [ ]“.
I demand that in future the number of gay characters is not strictly “one of each”, and also look forward to the day when two companions will strike up a relationship with each other during the down-time when you leave them hanging around at the base.
26/08/2011 at 08:08 Erd says:
I think one of the advantages of Obsidian is they don’t write “love” relationships, at least not in the Bioware trend of starting at meet-cute and finishing all the way at happily ever after.
Also, New Vegas’ cast is a bit like a chocolate sampler. 1 straight male, 1 straight female, 1 gay male, 1 gay female, 1 robot, 1 dog, 1 ghoul and 1 super-mutant.
25/08/2011 at 11:39 Zanchito says:
“As I have stated before, these are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.
Thread closed.”
Really? Oh, boy, Just like Mr. Ahmadinejad: “There are no homosexuals in Iran”. The power of negation and authoritarism combined! Go Captain Macho!
25/08/2011 at 21:46 Wulf says:
Hahahahaha. Well done.
Laughing with you, here. That just struck my funny bone because of how aptly true it is.
25/08/2011 at 11:42 sakmidrai says:
I believe Fable did it years ago… Some guys could fall in love with you and you could marry them, also sleep with them and have a wonderful house with them…
25/08/2011 at 11:44 LQ says:
There has been an ongoing poll and discussion on the SWTOR forums about romances.
Current thread is here:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=448772
25/08/2011 at 11:52 Stevostin says:
The only consideration that should be taken into account about deciding about this stuff is whether or not it makes sense with the game design. Does the people in the ES realms deal well with homosexuality, like the ancient greeks did (actually, pedophilia was socially acceptable too) ? Then let’s have a gay relationships in game (same question about pedophilia, necrophilia , hemophilia and stamps collections, of course).
Oh, and do people wed in that world, by the way ? To one single entity ? Because the point of those fantasy worlds is to experience something different than our boring own world. So each time there’s a code that seems to come straight out of the box from my known world rather than to be specifically invented to create some consistence with the brave new one I am basically buying with those games, I feel flawed.
So in the Star Wars universe, that’s really obvious. Star Wars world isn’t about gay or lesbian’s cause being advocated. Actually it’s not even about sexuality. So bringing heavily the “you disregard our real world community” really breaks what’s the world is about for everyone. Why not then have rent about never featuring other minorities ? A jedi in a wheel chair, maybe ? An obese wookie ? Some syndicalist droïds, maybe ?
Of course, ES world should deal with that, because ES is all about do your own choices and let’s face it, I want to choose exactly what biscuit I introduce in what hole. That being said, ES isn’t about doing everything out of the blue : there are strong references to real medieval features (castle, king, sword, unicorn). There are even sort of churches, where you would expect some sort of wedding to occur. But gay wedding is certainly not from any medieval background ( they were burned here in France, which led to the interesting debate or “stoning or burning, what is the most barbaric ?”). So either the idea is to make it “ES specific” gay relationship – in that case you need to give it some context, have gay wedded NPC, statues, books – either it’s taken like the rest from the medieval era and you deal with it like it was.
Which would probably be the most interesting choice, and still it’s never the one taken by game designers. You can do a movie – a mainstream movie – with a protagonist facing homophobia or racism – either at the core of the plot, or just as a side aspect. You just never have that in a video game. Everything made about gay or blacks or whatever is marketing toward communities – which is easily seen by the fact it’s only about powerful communities : you’re never able to play a midget while you can be a black lesbian. There is no will to actually deal with racism, religious or sexual segregation. Will Prey 2 feature a Christian hero persecuted by agnostic aliens for his faith, even gently ? No. Still, that would have been an interesting experience. That’s where you see videogame still have way to grow up. “Hey, we have gay marriage !” is just what comes after you learn how to play with yourself, I guess.
25/08/2011 at 12:04 pipman3000 says:
Yeah it sucks how gaming is always featuring gay black protagonists and things they can relate to while ignoring the very real issue of Christians being persecuted by atheists from other space :\
25/08/2011 at 12:18 Dawngreeter says:
“Will Prey 2 feature a Christian hero persecuted by agnostic aliens for his faith, even gently ?”
I think aliens would have already figured out that agnosticism is a term which is in no way related to theism and would recognize that most human religious people are in fact theistic agnostics.
25/08/2011 at 16:19 Binho says:
I had no idea people can’t be prejudiced against majorities. So it’s ok to think all Christians are bigoted morons? That’s not steretyping or prejudice? Have to update by rule book then, as it seems it’s only prejudice if it’s a minority. I’m going to go burn down a church!! Wohoo!
Anyways, you are being pedantic and picking on the most insignificant part of his argument. I must be on the internet!
26/08/2011 at 03:10 pipman3000 says:
^ Nobody cares ^
25/08/2011 at 11:54 rasputinsownbear says:
This is not enough. We demand a redguard emperor for Tamriel.
25/08/2011 at 11:59 pipman3000 says:
(The joke is black people)
25/08/2011 at 21:50 Wulf says:
That would be rather amazing. I’d be all for that. I’d love to see the Imperials work out a system of election, too. I mean, as I’ve said before, there’s a lot to respect with the Imperials. They still have a long way to go, but they might just be about getting there. They have people of various races in their royal guard, after all. And yes, that even includes beastpeople (Morrowind!).
I know it was a joke, but really, that would be an awesome form of natural evolution for them to do. And after Skyrim, it might even be an apt time to try that.
25/08/2011 at 11:59 Meusli says:
But what about water sports? Have they considered adding water sports in yet, because that is where it is at.
25/08/2011 at 12:00 pipman3000 says:
Because the water park kept freezing over.
25/08/2011 at 19:03 Eddy9000 says:
I think if watersports was the way that 20% of the western world had to physically express their love for other people, and they had been stigmatised and persecuted throughout the world for it then yes, I’d probably argue it should be in there.
25/08/2011 at 12:00 enobayram says:
I’m yet to see a game where romance isn’t utterly pointless anyway. If you’re searching for romance with an NPC in a game, you should seriously consider your life. When AI becomes strong enough that we can have meaningful, non-scripted and game changing in a procedural way conversations with the NPCs I can promote it to just pointless from utterly pointless. I don’t understand why people bother the developers with aspects of something that is utterly pointless.
25/08/2011 at 12:01 pipman3000 says:
Yeah but I want a stupid pointless romance with someone who is the same sex.
25/08/2011 at 12:16 Hanban says:
Why do people read books where relationships are featured anyways?
Why don’t they just live life, man?
Pathetic those book readers!
25/08/2011 at 13:21 Grygus says:
Why do people go on dates with no intention of getting married? Waste of time, I say!
25/08/2011 at 14:58 sneetch says:
Surely games themselves are largely pointless? Enjoyable but ultimately pointless.
25/08/2011 at 12:07 hotcod says:
Firstly I doubt this is something that game from bioware directly. I’m going to presume that it’s part of the agreement when working with the star wars licence. In fact there is no real openly gay character in all the expanded star wars universe as far as I can recall. Lucas Arts have pretty much said that it does exist but they just don’t want to have to deal with the issues that it can raise… which is a little said but ya laying the blame on bioware for being reductive when they’ve had gay characters in there own IP games and even a race of what is in effect bisexual female aliens seems a bit silly.
As for what is happening in Skyrim… I hope that it’s not just “any character you can have a relationship with is bisexual” because that is in it’s own way is as reductive and reduces sexuality to being meaningless and little more than titillation. If you can bed any character you like regardless of sex or in this case race then the the sexuality of the player character is in effect a meaningless choice. It has no impact on who the character you are playing is other than what model ends up living in your house. it’s an easy cop out that is placates the issue by demeaning what it can do for character.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2520-Sexual-Diversity
These guys, as ever, say it all far better than I can… In essence if every NPC you can have a relationship with has there sexuality defined by what the player wants then you lose sexual diversity as a tool to help crate a unique and interesting characters.
The case study they use in that video pretty much proves the point. The character is, with out his sexuality and the issues involved with it… less interesting… by making his sexuality more ambiguous for the English realise and as such allowing players to define the characters sexuality to their liking (as this would do) the character is, if seen as not being gay, left shallower and far less interesting as a result.
The only mature way to deal with sexuality is to accept that while it does not define us it is a important part of who we are. To leave a characters sexuality undefined until the player makes a choice about it simply leaves that character as being unconvincing. while their sexuality does not and should done define who they are it is an important aspect of their life that then has to simply has to be glossed over as not being important to who that character is because the writers can not know what it ends up being.
I guess while I’d much rather see all sexuality accepted as part of games more than it just being out right ignored I don’t want to see it made in to something meaningless to character. Accepting all sexuality as part of the tool box to create interesting characters just seem to me to be more affirming than portraying it as little more than a superficial choice for the player to make.
25/08/2011 at 12:09 CalleX says:
I see my fair share of homosexuality on TV and in media in general. Im glad I dont have to be bombarded mor with it in games TBH.
25/08/2011 at 12:17 Hanban says:
Yeah man, I hear you!
I see heterosexuality all day every day in every aspect of life and I’m totally over it!
Bring in the furries!
25/08/2011 at 12:21 pipman3000 says:
@CalleX
I kept typing up replies and then deleting them because they’d be considered flaming so I’m just going to say this post is bad and you should feel bad.
25/08/2011 at 12:29 hotcod says:
I’m going to ask you to read back what you said to your self but replace homosexuality with “black people” or “female characters” and lets see if that will help you realise what a fundamentally hideous statement you just made.
25/08/2011 at 12:36 LennyLeonardo says:
I’d like to suggest that “homosexuality”, “black people”, and “female characters” are not synonyms. However, you’re absolutely right – this guy is filth.
25/08/2011 at 12:43 hotcod says:
No other than they are all minorities that just happen to exist… which is something some people seem to take personal offence too.
Point I was making is that all those people exist and have as much right to be represented in our media as the typical straight white male.
God forbid Mr centre of the whole universe has to be exposed to something other than him self in his games! ‘cus clearly games are made purely for his entertainment and as such should only include the kinds of people he deems acceptable.
25/08/2011 at 12:47 jp0249107 says:
Being gay may not be a political stance, but it has politicized itself to the point of being as much of one as being a drum-circle banging empty-headed hippie is. I’m not that interested in seeing a REAL man and woman making out hardcore in the street, much less forced recognition of a digital representation of heterosexuality or gays in my video games.
25/08/2011 at 12:51 Rii says:
Those bloody gays, always agitating to be treated equally and all, whoever heard of such nonsense?
25/08/2011 at 12:57 Hanban says:
@jp0249107
It’s a bit difficult to know what you really mean by “politicized”. But, what is worth considering is, what would the situation be for the gay community be if they hadn’t become politically active fighting for their rights? Fact of the matter is, being homosexual means that many things that we associate as normal everyday rights in society are denied to you.
Should they not then have “politicized”? I fail to see where you are supposed to draw the line between actively seeking the same rights, and becoming comparable to a “empty-headed hippie”.
Privilege, yadda yadda yadda.
25/08/2011 at 16:32 aircool says:
Roy from IT Crowd.
“Oh, I’m very comfortable with my sexuality, I just don’t want to be slapped in the face with their sexuality.”
25/08/2011 at 12:17 Berzee says:
“This is my sister, Mr. Sterling.”
“My name’s not Mr. Sterling.”
“No, but my sister’s is.”
That’s liberality there, that is — true cutting-edge innovation. Who says a man can’t be your sister?
25/08/2011 at 12:33 LennyLeonardo says:
I find the whole ‘no homosexuals in Star Wars’ thing pretty hard to stomach. Fine, write a story that happens not to contain gay characters, that’s not a problem, but to create an entire galaxy where no-one is gay? That’s delivering a pretty strong message if you ask me.
Anyway, what about C3P0?
25/08/2011 at 13:16 Unaco says:
There are numerous LGB characters in the Star Wars Universe. They do exist within the ‘galaxy’.
25/08/2011 at 14:01 LennyLeonardo says:
Really? Happy to be corrected.
25/08/2011 at 12:36 Zaxwerks says:
I think it would be a good idea if at the start of a game as well as being able to customize your character you could also specify general details of what sex and physical attributes you found attractive and what you found unattractive, and then the game could generate any potential romatic interest characters around the variables you defined, ‘cos quite frankly I was more an Alistair man than a Zevran man, I would have constantly been nagging him to get his stupid girly long hair cut and our relationship just wouldn’t have lasted in the long term.
25/08/2011 at 12:44 jp0249107 says:
It’s a shame that we have to insert politics into something that helps us escape from the crap we see on MSNBC and the alphabet networks. I’d rather not be reminded of the intolerance and special treatment being demanded by both sides when I want to relax.
25/08/2011 at 12:59 hotcod says:
wait so equal means special? I never knew
25/08/2011 at 13:02 ReV_VAdAUL says:
The Issue is that gay people want to be accommodated when they are relaxing too.
25/08/2011 at 14:08 Daiv says:
“Please stop discriminating.”
“You shut your mouth about special treatment!”
25/08/2011 at 12:55 elikal says:
Thanks RPS for bringing this news. “Many gay Bothans died to bring us this information.”
Alas, most websites tended to ignore this news about the unexpected move that SWTOR exclude same gender romances. It is indeed sad that video games are the most conservative of all entertainment media. Literature, movie, TV series and even comics have LONG ago moved on to a modern era!
25/08/2011 at 12:55 Dionysus says:
So now the TES modders only have to add functionality for impregnating NPCs and child birthing. Also tentacle rape, a stripping spell, and scripts and animations to mimic various sexual positions (including tentacle variations).
25/08/2011 at 13:28 Askeladd says:
Now I know why some developers dont publish a SDK.
25/08/2011 at 14:22 Dionysus says:
And if you think I’m joking, you really need to search for some of the more horrifying Oblivion and Morrowind mods. Though, there are some things that are difficult to unsee.
25/08/2011 at 13:21 Zogtee says:
It’s Luke and Leia, guys, not Luke and… No, wait. Fuck!
25/08/2011 at 13:34 Zepp says:
Gay relationships in Skyrim? Damn, that’s news worthy.
25/08/2011 at 14:04 v_ware says:
Guess my characters will be forever alone.
Or maybe he’ll a relationship with a very butch female trandoshan.
25/08/2011 at 14:05 Linfosoma says:
This is great news, Im a bit tired to being forced to have pretend relationships with female characters in every game.
That said, if they are going to allow same sex marriage in the game, I better have more options than just your tipical effeminative guy (not that I have anything against them, but it’s just not my type).
Like the alt text says, I better be able to bang a cat person or an orc.
25/08/2011 at 14:07 Unaco says:
I don’t think that the absence of something from a game (or any sort of media) implies any sort of opinion regarding that something, that can be attributed to the developers or creators of that game world. If they included it, and treated it negatively or positively, then yes, we could imply the creators opinions from that. But I don’t think we should draw any conclusions from something’s absence.
25/08/2011 at 14:52 bwion says:
Given that it’s pretty clearly, based on the few comments we’ve had from Bioware, a purposeful omission — that is, someone actively decided not to put same-sex relationships into the game — rather than just an oversight, I certainly think it’s reasonable to ask why that decision was made. Asking the question is, of course, not the same as assuming you know the answer.
25/08/2011 at 14:12 aircool says:
I remember George Lucas a long (long time ago etc…) time ago saying something about there being nothing sexual in Star Wars (I believe Carrie Fishers norks were taped down to stop them moving around so much).
However, if there was an overt level of sexuality in Star Wars, I think C-3P0 has got all bases covered.
25/08/2011 at 14:24 Rico021 says:
Will there also be kids?? That would be cool.
25/08/2011 at 14:26 AMonkey says:
I don’t really care either way. As long as romance is done well it doesn’t matter the sexual orientation.
25/08/2011 at 14:43 sinister agent says:
So, leaving aside the homosexuality thing (which is a Good Thing, obv), is anyone else very pleased to hear that you’ll actually be able to have meaningful relationships with NPCs in Skyrim? I mean, I don’t mind about having a girl/boyfriend or getting married or whatever, but actually having some personality in NPCs and meaningful impact on the world is one of the biggest things the series needed. If it’s handled even somewhat well, we could be in for a real treat.
25/08/2011 at 15:19 Jamesworkshop says:
http://www.notmydesk.com/npc/nondrick004.jpg
the horror
in reality what it will probably amount to is a modern recreation of the pallete swap pollygon swap
25/08/2011 at 15:06 sneetch says:
I’m surprised to hear that there are “romances” of any type in SWTOR at all as they’ll be aiming for a 12s rating. I presume we’ll be spared the cringy sex scenes. :)
25/08/2011 at 15:15 Jamesworkshop says:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/9087-Extra-Punctuation-Why-No-Couples-in-Games
sex,marriage or relationships are almost invisible in the gaming world, I can’t think of practically any character aside from SHODAN that even has a gender as an explict part of their personality, most gaming characters could be replaced with sentient pizzas as long as they could fire a gun.
Get used to it john love interest exist as object to get killed in the plot
http://lh6.ggpht.com/Censorbugbear/SNeGd1BbbtI/AAAAAAAABRA/zzlVc6v834I/PerilsOfPaulineTiedToRailwayTracks%5B4%5D.jpg
thats how old school gaming is and how far it’s caught upto movies in a single image
25/08/2011 at 15:56 Moonracer says:
One more reason to be excited about Skyrim! It will be interesting to see how fleshed out that angle will be gameplay wise. I’m guessing that if you get hitched and have a house the NPC just hangs around you house eating all your alchemy ingredients while you are out saving the world.
Hopefully we get the option to roleplay the type of adventurer that likes to party in taverns and has a partner in every town. At least we know the PC mods will allow this :D
But what I really want to see is an elderly nord lesbian couple running an armor shop and bickering over heavy versus light armor qualities.
25/08/2011 at 16:34 AlexTaldren says:
This is very important. Very, very important. If they don’t let dudes marry and fuck dudes, and chicks marry and fuck chicks, the world is terrible, full of bigots, and doomed.
The only way is the progressive way. Homosexuality is the future. If it’s not in our games, how will anyone learn it’s okay to be gay? If developers don’t put gay options in our games, then they are conservative assholes who hate black people. You should have the option to save Luigi or Princess Peach. Why is heterosexuality FORCED on us? Oh the humanity. Oh the pain.
There, I can do the liberal circle jerk with the best of em’.
25/08/2011 at 16:54 LennyLeonardo says:
This begs the question: is there such thing as a conservative circle jerk?
Edit: oh yeah, I believe it’s called Eton College.
25/08/2011 at 17:18 Okami says:
You’ve forgotten to add that you don’t have anything against gay people and in fact have a lot of gay friends.
25/08/2011 at 20:33 AlwaysRight says:
Hey look everyone, a bigot has learnt sarcasm! Maybe soon he might develop a sense of humour.
By the way if you enjoy being fair to people and respecting their life choices then your a liberal wanker, now… make room for me in the circle.
26/08/2011 at 00:18 pipman3000 says:
Okay I am so not a homophobe like I’m so not homophobic one time I went to one of Fred Phelps’ anti-gay rallies and know what I really didn’t enjoy myself there it just wasn’t me. Now the people who want gays in games for no reason at all those are the real homophobes
25/08/2011 at 17:15 WJonathan says:
Wait, were those two AT-ATs dudes? Cause IF THEY ARE….
25/08/2011 at 17:21 Sharkticon says:
Why do LGBT people have to insist that their sexualities are represented in game? FFS leave your sexuality out of games!!! It’s not like it’s ethnicity or anything.
25/08/2011 at 17:25 Okami says:
Why shouldn’t it be represented in games? It’s a perfectly natural thing and if you’re going to represent heterosexual love there really is no reason not to include homosexual love.
And why does it even bother you? It’s not as if you’re forced to play a gay character..
25/08/2011 at 17:45 AlexTaldren says:
Homosexuality is a perfectly natural thing? When men start procreating from semen in their asses, I’ll believe it’s a part of the natural order.
As for the game mechanics, it isn’t like the other ES games were like, “HETEROSEXUALITY RESPECT!” Nor any game that I can think of really.
Just because one characteristic is represented in something, doesn’t mean the other types are disrespected. That kind of thinking is why idiots in government see a picture of a white family, and replace it with one that has a white dad, black mom, Asian son, and an Indian daughter.
25/08/2011 at 18:08 LennyLeonardo says:
@ AlexTaldren: Good grief, are you serious?
1) Homosexual activity has been observed in dozens of animal species other than man.
2) Is protected heterosexual sex, or sex between infertile partners ‘unnatural’ because it doesn’t result in babies?
3) You’re a moron.
25/08/2011 at 18:31 AlexTaldren says:
@LennyLeonardo:
1) We are not other animal species. Yes, in some species two males will mate, or a male will be the one to give birth. The same cannot be said for mankind.
2) No. Stupid question.
3) Chill out. I realize I have a different opinion than you, but seriously, shouldn’t you be more open-minded and progressive about it?
25/08/2011 at 18:37 LennyLeonardo says:
Yeah, sorry about 3, but I have very strong feelings about the ‘it’s not natural’ argument. As for 1 and 2, I think they’re both important points and worth discussing further, but I’m not sure this is the right place to do it.
I probably shouldn’t have replied in the first place but your post made me angry.
25/08/2011 at 18:40 Acorino says:
@AlexTaldren:
Well, you’ll find that in the realm of nature homosexuality is rather prevalent. I’m reminded of a amusing webcomic about the habits of animals with the following lines: “You giraffes love your man on man action. You’re one of the bummiest animals there is! Girl on girl is much rarer – the life of the lesbian giraffe is lonely indeed.” Not that this comic is a reliable source, but it rather charmingly points out the sexual nature of an animal species, the giraffe. So you can’t say homosexuality isn’t natural because the natural beings that animals are do practice it. The implication that homosexuality is merely a human concept and a decadent invention of our culture is rather absurd.
Of course, the naturalness of homosexuality is no argument for it. Animals got no morals since they got no conscience. Morals are an human invention that goes hand in hand with our intellect.
So, we as a human species always have to question our natural drives and ask ourselves: Is homosexuality detrimental? I don’t think so. Or ask the other way around: Would suppression of homosexuality be more detrimental than tolerance of homosexuality? Yes, I think so.
25/08/2011 at 18:48 Eddy9000 says:
“Just because one characteristic is represented in something, doesn’t mean the other types are disrespected”
I bet you’d be the first prick to start whinging if the game only allowed homosexual relationships.
And the fact that you want us to ‘leave our sexuality out of games’ but don’t have a problem with heterosexual sexuality being expressed shows just about how much respect you have for us.
You’re arguing that people shouldn’t bother arguing for their sexuality to be represented because it isn’t important, and I can understand why a white straighty such as yourself wouldn’t be that interested in arguments about diversity being represented in games; but then you continue your argument in a way that suggests that it’s rather important to you that homosexuality in particular isn’t included. Can you give me a decent argument why it shouldn’t be, and why people shouldn’t want it to be?
I tell you what else isn’t natural and done by other species: the internet. So why don’t you follow your own advice, not use this unnatural abomination and spare us your ignorant bigotry.
25/08/2011 at 19:15 AlexTaldren says:
@Lenny: No problem, man. I understand how things like this get heated.
@Acorino: What’s the goal of every species on the planet? Survival. It’s instinct that takes over and keeps us alive, tells us when to run, etc. It also drive us to reproduce. If homosexuality among humans doesn’t result in reproduction, and therefore further ensuring our survival as a species, then it could be argued as being detrimental, not from a direct moral standpoint, but from a simple survival standpoint. Of course, current world population figures would make it seem like we really don’t need to reproduce to survive at this point, but that’s another matter.
@Eddy9000: Angry “open-minded” and “progressive” gay guy calling a white heterosexual a bigot. Got it. You realize you owe a heterosexual couple your existence. You show some respect.
25/08/2011 at 19:42 Acorino says:
Edit: I see that I restated in my first argument some ground you already covered. Oops. I guess we’re on the same page there at least.
Well, seeing as homosexuals aren’t in the majority, I doubt that they’ll drive humanity to extinction. ;) Quite to the contrary, since the world population is continually increasing to a precarious number I guess that there aren’t enough homosexuals in the world so far! ;)
But let’s say the opposite was the case and the population would decrease to a level that makes extinction a rational worry.
Shouldn’t then heterosexuals simply procreate more since it’s in their nature? You could say that homosexuals should in this scenario have the responsibility to procreate to “save mankind” (sounds kinda ridiculous, doesn’t it?). Who knows, some might do it! But it would happen without any of the magical feelings that unites heterosexual lovers together to create babies! So it would be abnormal, naturally speaking.
Also, even in this instance, bisexuality would still be alright, right? Bisexuals could procreate, but still have sex with a same sex partner. Sure, this could lead to some dishonest and not quite harmonic relationships, opening up some new moral questions there…
25/08/2011 at 20:07 Eddy9000 says:
? I’m confused by your answer! I’m obviously not calling you a bigot *because* you’re white (as am I) and heterosexual (nor do I claim to be particularly open minded or progressive, but you obviously think it’s incredibly progressive for a gay guy to want the same treatment as straight ones!). I’m calling you a bigot because you obviously think people who are gay are undeserving of the same treatment that those who are not enjoy, becasue of some frankly hilarious argument that revolves around reproduction.
[EDIT] Hang on there…is your argument that I shouldn’t call *any* heterosexual a bigot, or otherwise disagree with or insult them because I owe another two heterosexuals my *life*? If so you’re essentially arguing that gay men should be servile to straight ones, and in need of more help than I thought! Jeez if being stright is the only way you can try to get people to “show some respect” then you must be truly pathetic. My parents respect me and I them for many reasons that have nothing to do with sexuality. Please tell me I got you wrong, this isn’t what you meant and enlighten me as to what you did!
I’m glad you’ve stopped hiding behind the pretense that you don’t think representing diversity is important, and simply come out as saying you don’t agree with homosexuality because you think it’s wrong. At least when bigotry is out in the open it can be named and tackled rather than worming its way into common discourse insidiously.
Haha “show some respect” indeed! Do you even know what you sound like? Do you think I should be like: “Oh yes mah straight white massa! I respect choo massa, I wish ah could be straight like you!” Fucking hilarious mate.
[EDIT] I just showed my boyfriend this thread, and he told me he’ll “show [me] some respect” in bed tonight, so it looks like at least one of us gets a little!
25/08/2011 at 20:36 Okami says:
@Alex: Judging by your prevous posts, you really shouldn’t be calling anybody angry. And I guess you realize, that you haven’t written anything that counters Eddy’s argument. You just made fun of him by putting open minded and progressive in quotation marks, implying that he either doesn’t possess these traits or that you don’t really have any respect for them.
Also your understanding of evolution is lacking, to say the least. Read half a book about it once, I guess. Know something about “survival of the fittest” and that the only thing that matters is that you don’t get killed, kill the other others and spread your semen as much as possible. Turns out that the whole subject is a bit more complex than that and that there are thousands of things people and animals will do that don’t make any sense if you take that narrow view.
Also this is all a bit besides the point. While the evolution of species through means of natural selection is an incredibly interesting and rewarding field of study, it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I was speaking about human nature and not some kind of darwinian imperative. Loving other people, caring for them and wanting to be close to them are part of our nature. And while most of us find ourselves attracted to members of the opposite sex, others don’t. It’s still love, it’s still the desire for companionship and warmth and it’s still part of human nature. You might not like it, but that’s your problem and nobody else’s.
And while you might argue about wether it’s a good idea to include romance options in a video game or not – if you do it, there’s no reason not to have options for gay and straight romance in it – except that some people might have their sensibilities offended by it. And, as Richard Dawkins (since you so like to beat the evolution drum) put it: There’s no right to not get offended.
So far you haven’t brought a single good argument why the inclusion of optional gay romance in Skyrim is a bad idea. Other than that you quite obviously are uncomfortable with it. Or annoyed. Or just don’t like it. Or whatever.
25/08/2011 at 20:36 Acorino says:
I agree with Eddy9000.
I wouldn’t complain about not being born in the case I hadn’t been born.
That’s that regarding respect.
25/08/2011 at 20:54 Grundig says:
Eddy9000 is demonstrably right, and much more articulate.
(Anything to put down Alex’s shower of bigoted bullshit)
25/08/2011 at 21:22 henben says:
I don’t think Alex is really uncomfortable or annoyed by it. I’d say more intrigued and aroused. He likes to talk about the idea because it lets him type explicitly about “semen in [male] asses” without needing to admit his true desires to himself.
A key argument for male-male romance options in games is that they let homophobes like Alex (that is, self-hating gays) explore their desires in a safe, private space as part of an activity which is acceptable to the mainstream cultural construction of heterosexual male behaviour. This affords them deniability even to themselves. I guess that’s the real reason behind Alex’s baffling objection to entirely optional content which he can easily avoid: he knows that he will pursue gay romance options if they’re available, and has yet to come to terms with the idea.
25/08/2011 at 22:46 Nick says:
I don’t want any sexuality in most of my games, but I don’t have an issue with it being represented equally if its there at all. I’d rather it wasn’t in bethesda games because I have no faith in their ability to make it anything but badly written. Hell the only places its been handled decently are Bloodlines, Fallout/2 and BG2 that I have played. Mass Effects 2′s 4 chats and a fuck just irritates me no end.
25/08/2011 at 18:37 Grape Flavor says:
This would be good news if only the people in Skyrim weren’t so repulsive. Have you seen the face panels that came out recently? Everyone has dirt all over their faces and all the guys look like they have acromegaly or something. Maybe Oblivion’s tidy clean shaven folk were unrealistic for a medieval setting but this is fantasy damn it. I can smell Skyrim’s characters just by looking at the screenshots.
If you’re going to let me have gay relationships give me a Zevran or a Fenris or something. Even the elves look like neanderthals with a hygiene problem and not a nice Legolas-type. I mean if that’s your thing I’m not judging you but what a shame it would be to let you sex up the mens if none of the mens even look nice.
Please Bethesda make your mens more pretty. We can start up a petition.
25/08/2011 at 18:43 shizamon says:
@vecordae
Haha! yeah like how the only overweight pilot in episode 4 was named “porkins”..ahhh.
damn reply fail
25/08/2011 at 18:55 pH-unbalanced says:
I know. And just once I’d like for the lesbian relationship to be with a butch woman, instead of the same woman they designed to appeal to the straight guys.
25/08/2011 at 18:59 pH-unbalanced says:
Sigh. Reply fail.
25/08/2011 at 19:00 Brometheus says:
That’s cool and all, but will there be an option to set your character’s orientation and stop the repeated come-ons of that type? In Dragon Age: Origins, when Zevran came on to me, I just said “Sorry bro, I don’t do dude” and took the -30 hit or whatever, and that was a done deal. That was fine with me. But in DA2, everyone kept coming on to me every damn time skip. “No Anders, I’ve been living with Merill for 3 years, I don’t know what you expect, but now I have to choose the frowny-face option and the broken heart option.”
Also, make the wording clearer. In New Vegas, the confirmed bachelor perk seemed like it was a sort of frat boy perk, but then the image had a heart on it, so I put two and two together.
25/08/2011 at 20:45 Eddy9000 says:
Except ‘confirmed batchelor’ is a pretty common phrase for ‘homosexual’. You’re lucky you were even allowed not to choose the option, and weren’t forced to be gay, that’s the kind of shit I have to put up with in 90% of games that name the characters sexuality.
25/08/2011 at 19:10 the.celt says:
There’s a whole lot of human activities participated in by 5-10% of the average population which wouldn’t reasonably show up in any given piece of media. The goal is to tell a story, with unnumbered assumptions towards normalcy (and normalcy here means “majority”) and move on. You can’t namecheck every human activity in every story and avoiding to do so isn’t an insult to all participants in the unmentioned activities.
All this groupthink makes me want to write a parody about a future wherein the Milk Board has become enormously influential and all media (and then eventually all people) feel obligated to say “Got Milk” to each other and regularly remind each other that they “sure do love a good glass of refreshing milk”.
Weird would be a world in which milk drinking gets mentioned all the time. The need to mention if milk drinking will or will not occur in the next piece of media is *weird*. Normal would be if there were no need to mention or emphasize it at all. And dare I say, there’s a whole lot more self-described milk drinkers in the world then there are self-described gays.
25/08/2011 at 19:28 LennyLeonardo says:
I can’t remember ever reading about anyone being beaten to death for drinking milk. But if this did happen, I’m sure milk drinkers would like to be fairly represented in the media so that society at large might eventually come to accept them.
The point is, homosexuality is not just any minority activity, it’s got the weight of social inequality and hate crime to deal with, so it NEEDS support in the media and everywhere else.
25/08/2011 at 20:01 henben says:
No, weird would be a world where a game optionally portrayed a minority activity like hang-gliding as a small part of its content, and that caused people to get upset because the game wasn’t catering to the “male, non-hang-gliding gamer”.
25/08/2011 at 20:32 Eddy9000 says:
I think you should try around 20% of the population. And I think when that characteristic is a very important one that often defines someones lifestyle and image, as well as being one for which people have been horribly persecuted and had to fight hard to get equal rights for, then yes, it is important to represent it. I think sexuality is a little more important than milk or hangliding (it is to me anyway, you might REALLY like milk or something).
25/08/2011 at 20:32 Shih Tzu says:
If you’re creating a game where the goal is to give players as much freedom as possible in how they conduct themselves, I think the question is why anyone would explicitly choose to -disallow- players the choice to pursue same-sex relationships.
(Inasmuch as any NPC interaction in any game yet made can be characterized as a “relationship”.)
25/08/2011 at 21:02 henben says:
Yeah, my hang-gliding analogy wasn’t much better than the milk analogy – I didn’t mean to imply that sexual orientation is as important or malleable as choice of leisure pursuit. My point is that there are a lot of people arguing “gayness isn’t important [due to demographics or other spurious reasons], so I DON’T want you to include it”, and that makes no sense.
If it’s not important then the.celt wouldn’t be upset by its inclusion. The reason the topic gets him (I’m guessing it’s a him) worked up is that talking about it stirs up long suppressed feelings, causing a level of physiological arousal that he interprets as revulsion in order to avoid the cognitive dissonance he’d need to go through to be honest about his identity. It’s well-established that the most homophobic men are those who display most sexual response to gay pornography.
These subconscious yearnings even colour his choice of metaphors – “milk-drinking” indeed.
25/08/2011 at 21:21 Eddy9000 says:
Henben your Lacanian analysis of the unconcious symbolism of milk drinking made me laugh so much that I could forgive you for anything. And if the next Star Wars game has a mission where you have to smuggle sausages through the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs then I’ll know exactly why George Lucas won’t allow gays.
25/08/2011 at 21:31 henben says:
Oh come on, it’s all there already. A pretty blonde farmboy whose only close relationship to a woman is with his sister? Who is initiated into a secret “life force” by older men who make a practice of hiding their true identities as a response to persecution by a hostile society? And the test he has to pass is confronting himself and acknowledging his so-called “dark side”?
He also makes his camp robot call him “Master”, and that’s just in public.
25/08/2011 at 22:05 the.celt says:
@Eddy9000 – Where I went when googling for some fast information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation
@henben – I never said that I don’t want it included. I said that it’s weird to demand or strongly request that it *be* included. Please don’t hand me a stance that I haven’t taken and don’t want to defend. I don’t think you’ve scratched my main point that the goal is to tell a story, cater to the presumed average life-experience of the listener, and just get the job done. It’s not me or my ideas causing this, it’s a necessity of communication.
@LennyLeonardo – I don’t think that Bert & Ernie, Darth Vader, or my recently created RPG character are appropriate or will be effective at stopping bullet-headed, hate-filled freaks from commiting hate crimes. We’re not living in a world where advertising is really the answer to everything, we sadly just think it is
I don’t want to watch “gay-friendly” or “milk-friendly” Star Wars. I don’t applaud such efforts, I roll my eyes and think that everything, *everything*, is a commercial product now. Every interest, every personal trait and thought has a group of proponents pushing for their product to be advertised next to every other product. It’s pathetic.
25/08/2011 at 22:06 LennyLeonardo says:
Yeah, and don’t forget the huge neon extendo-phallus that’s the focal point of their ‘secret society’.
Oh hell, everyone knows the lightsaber is a cock, right? It’s in Spaceballs.
25/08/2011 at 22:11 LennyLeonardo says:
Gah. The media does not equal “advertising”.
The media is the way we interact with the world outside our immediate surroundings. It’s the single biggest effector of social change, and it’s the largest influence on individual opinion outside our parents.
The fair representation of oppressed social groups in the media does and will have a MASSIVE impact, and it’s just as important – perhaps more important – in games as anywhere else.
Edit: Ngh – sorry for double post
25/08/2011 at 22:25 henben says:
@thecelt I don’t know whether to start my analysis with your use of the phrase “scratch my main point” or “milk-friendly Star Wars”.
Actually, let’s look at how conflicted your feelings seem to be. Just in this post, you assert “I never said that I don’t want [milky man-on-man romance] included”, but then in your response to LennyLeonardo you say “I don’t want to watch ‘gay-friendly’ or ‘milk-friendly’ Star Wars”.
Even thinking about the subject seems to send you into a turmoil of self-contradiction. You also seem to think that sexual orientation is a “product” to be advertised, which is only true if you think people are open to persuasion about which gender(s) they prefer. Most people aren’t, but clearly you feel like you might be.
That has to be the source of your bluster about “the presumed average life-experience” of players. Presumably you would prefer it to be compulsory for avatars to be mixed-race hermaphrodites to bring them closer to the average life-experience? According to you, that’s the key to efficiently “getting the job [of delivering the story] done”, which is of course what we all look for in games.
Or do you see the value of *optionally* allowing totally *optional* customisation for gender, hair colour and so on? In which case, how does *optionally* allowing *optional* gay romances (which are probably very similar to the straight romances) interfere with the efficient story-telling any more than the option to be ginger?
Anyway, I hope you are able to come to terms with your sexuality soon.
25/08/2011 at 22:33 Eddy9000 says:
Hi Celt, thanks for that demographic info, I don’t mind admitting being wrong about some things. But in the more important issue of homosexuality in games I’d be interested in your reply to some of the arguments made that you missed in your reply:
– That sexuality and thus homosexuality is a major defining characteristic for someone with large effects on social and personal identity and experiences, and is also one that people have been persecuted for. Not representing homosexuality as an acceptable choice in a game that pertains to be a ‘role-playing game’ and represents heterosexuality may be seen at worst as upholding discourses of homosexuality as unacceptable that have led in the past to persecution, and at least the omission would be a missed opportunity to portray homosexuality as acceptble.
- That not thinking it is important to represent homosexuality is different to not wanting it in games (although I think both are harmful attitudes). However the attitude of not thinking it is important is generally best represented by not bothering to post in a thread on such, whereas making the effort to post suggests that you do have a strong stance, and that is that homosexuality should not be in games.
25/08/2011 at 20:24 Xiyng says:
Six pages of comments again? Really? Sorry, not reading through all of them.
Just wanted to say that I hope not all NPCs are bisexual. It would, you know, break the immersion… But on the other hand, it would probably explain why Tamriel is so scarcely populated :P
25/08/2011 at 20:38 Eddy9000 says:
God no, I wouldn’t want this at all. I think a gay club would be a nice touch though! Or even a greco-roman style situation where gay sex was considered the highest form, as women were only good for breeding and pouring wine, and only high status civilians could take a man as a lover. That would open up different high xp level romance options in the game, and make a decent man-shag something you have to work towards.
25/08/2011 at 20:34 Okami says:
EDIT: reply fail
25/08/2011 at 20:41 Kadayi says:
Ones a SP RPG the others am MMO so what’s the big deal exactly? Oh noes ones a game by Bethesda (we like them because they use steam yay!!) and ones an EA game (we hate them with their Origin stuff Boo Hiss). Sums it up about right yes?
26/08/2011 at 01:01 TheApologist says:
RockPaperShotgun’s very own Godwin’s Law – the longer a thread goes on the probability of someone inappropriately dragging their belief in a pro-Steam bias into the conversation moves towards 1
25/08/2011 at 20:44 DigitalSignalX says:
Brilliant rule 34.
25/08/2011 at 23:11 temujin1234 says:
I’m cautious about how balanced the gameplay will be after playing Morrowind and Oblivion, but I do look forward to being a giant gay lizard.
25/08/2011 at 23:15 AlwaysRight says:
…and in the game? BOOM!
25/08/2011 at 23:34 Lazaruso says:
No same sex couples in TOR? What a shame!
As for Skyrim, they’ll probably reverse that decision within six months, right after Fox News catches wind of it.
And henben, keep up the psychoanalyzing, I almost spilled my drink reading those comments. :D
26/08/2011 at 00:14 Eddy9000 says:
If they’re going to reverse it anyway they should go all out to piss Fox off by calling it “Guy-rim, the corn-hole scrolls”
26/08/2011 at 00:05 elnalter says:
its great news you can do whatever you want in skyrim.
as for TOR, i already hate every addition to the franchise after the original trilogy so i would enjoy seeing TOR become as fascist as possible. they should start banning accounts of players who are openly gay too. id love to see the backlash bioware gets for that
26/08/2011 at 00:23 Lazaruso says:
What did Mussolini have against gays?
26/08/2011 at 00:57 sinister agent says:
Because proper tea is theft!
Oh wait. Hang on. Sorry, I think I’ve got the wrong script here….
26/08/2011 at 01:43 wonkavision says:
“As I have stated before, these are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.”
Reminds me of Ahmadinejad claiming there are no homosexuals in Iran.
But this is even more ridiculous: “And if that partner is the same sex as you, the game won’t blink an eye.”
It’s hard enough to realistically portray heterosexual relationships in games. The only way developers seem to know how to include gays is by constructing an alternate reality in which everyone is either a) bisexual or b) unquestioningly supportive of gay lifestyles.
I would love to play a game that’s similar to Watchmen in its treatment of homosexual characters. I mean Watchmen, the comic book, in which gay characters existed and had to deal with the problems of living in the real world (i.e., a world in which others are largely intolerant of homosexuals). Games go the route of the movie. In the comics, the Silhouette was forced into retirement when it was discovered she was a lesbian. In the movie, they replaced the iconic photograph of a returning WWII sailor kissing a girl in Times Square with an image of the Silhouette kissing a girl–rewriting history to construct an alternate gay universe.
26/08/2011 at 02:52 pipman3000 says:
Escaspism for fat nerds where they’re awesome heroes everyone wants to bone = good
Escapism for gay/lesbian people where they’re not hated and killed for merely existing = bad because its politically correct and stuff.
19/03/2012 at 06:07 Grape says:
Wow, pipman3000. You haven’t understood a single fucking word of what he just said, have you?
Fucking impressive.
26/08/2011 at 02:55 pipman3000 says:
The Elder Scrolls 5: Alternate Gay Universe
26/08/2011 at 02:34 LostViking says:
Oh no, now the conservative religious types are going to hate gaming even more…
26/08/2011 at 02:56 pipman3000 says:
good
maybe it’ll scare off some of the conservative religious gamers too
26/08/2011 at 08:01 vecordae says:
I don’t think this is a reflection of gaming in general. Very few people care, for instance, that you can’t pursue a meaningful homosexual relationship in Angry Birds. No one asks if the mines in Minesweeper were left behind by American soldiers in Bosnia or what have you. These are simple forms of entertainment that do not inspire much by way of political thought in the players.
The more depth and complexity you start to add to the characters and narrative, however, the more people start getting vocal about the choices the designers made in creating them. Suddenly, it’s not a game. It’s a fantasy realm we are planning to escape to, and we get irritated that it doesn’t suit our very particular wants and desires. We get invested in these worlds and then start to resent our lack of total control over them.
Take the Dragon Age games. You have a guy, Alistair, that exists as a romance option for just ladies. One of the first mods made by the fan base for the game was a mod that “fixed” that so he’d be open to romantic advances from more beard-encrusted players. In real life this sort of thing is completely unacceptable. You can’t just “make” someone gay or non-gay to suit your whims any more than you can make them love you. But, in the game space, we often DEMAND that very power. We want the fantasy world to be a reflection of our own ideals and we get uncomfortable when it either fails to meet our desire (“why is the only half-squid/half eggplant romance option kind of a dick?”) or confronts us with things that would not exist in our ideal world (“why is that half-squid/half eggplant creature giving me bedroom eyes.”)
Asking any one game company to produce a single game that can cater to all of our various wants or desires would require them to produce something even more complicated and compromise-ridden than real life. Just pick and chose your entertainment to reflect what you want your games to be. The market will eventually respond with something slanted toward your own peculiar biases that you’ll enjoy.
27/08/2011 at 03:21 Vile Vile Vilde says:
My god.
My character is going to be Caden Burham: Enemy of Monogamy. And I shall have such fun.
Also, good decision, would buy again A+++++