By Alec Meer on November 22nd, 2011 at 8:38 am.
See this hat I’m wearing? The one with the dark tuft at the top? You should be afraid when I wear this hat. Very afraid. Because this hat means I’m grumpy. But it’s okay, I’m not grumpy at you. I’m grumpy at unidentified tech sorts at Bethesda Softworks who last night released the first patch for Skyrim. A patch whose only effects was to limit what we can do with the game. It was released without fanfare or explanation, but forums swiftly figured out its purpose.
The 18MB downloadette is essentially there to stop the game from running without Steam: the main executable is now tied thoroughly into Valve’s security, unreliable offline mode et al. Nothing remarkable there, save for the surprising fact that it was at all unbound at release, but one of the upshots of this is that we’re now limited from faffing about with said executable. Most particularly, the large address aware third-party patch that enabled Skyrim to use more than 2GB of system RAM.
Update: a new LAA workaround that apparently does the job without altering the exectuable! Phew. Now can we have official support for all our lovely RAM please, Bethsoft?
Activating this made the game more stable, and meant it could support more mods and tweaks – including the fabled uGrids .ini file tinker that made the game’s icy landscapes look significantly more gorgeous. Once Steam auto-updates Skyrim, that opportunity is dead. And we once again have a game that, for many of us, ignores most of our PCs’ memory. What a waste. The loss of LAA support is, of course, just a side-effect of Bethesda trying to increase security: they’re not trying to stop us from tweaking. But if only they’d officially add support for more than 2GB of RAM: this is 2011, for heaven’s sake.
It’s particularly galling that the game will be coolly patched in this way, so Bethesda’s tech-folk are clearly beavering away on the game, but we have not – and very possibly will not – see official memory and uGrids updates to make the game run and look better. They never came along for Oblivion or the Fallouts, so I’m guessing we won’t get ‘em this time too. Hopefully tweakers will find a way to salvage Skyrim’s memory usage nonetheless, because great things lie on the other side of it.
Meantime, I’m very lucky in that my review build of the game has dodged the patch, so I’ll switch back to that for uGrids 11 loveliness. Sorry.
22/11/2011 at 08:43 Valvarexart says:
This patch (well it’s not really a patch) seems to work just fine for me: http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1013
Oh and luckily I backed my original TESV.exe up, so should it come to the worst I still have that. I do get kinda frustrated when the only thing a patch does is enforce DRM rather than fix bugs and such.
22/11/2011 at 09:02 Baboonanza says:
I wondered what the hell was up last night. I managed to get everything working again using my backup up TESIV exe but something had undone all of my tweaking which was a PITA.
As a consequence I have removed the junction that linked Skyrim to the steamapps folder so the can be no further dicking around in future.
Not impressed.
22/11/2011 at 09:49 Sheng-ji says:
A good lesson here is if you’ve spent ages modding a game that auto updates is to back up your tweaks!!!
22/11/2011 at 09:51 Fierce says:
I haven’t purchased Skyrim yet as I believed No Pre-order Bonus to Lose + Steam Holiday Sale Free Savings One Month Away + Time Needed For Mods To Make Better * ( Buggy As Fuck ^ Bethesda / Possible Official Patches By 2012 ) = Wisdom… but apparently I didn’t properly factor in the effects of a true “^ Bethesda” variable.
Now to be fair, if what people are harping about the incomplete contractually obligated DRM is true, then this had to be done. Also, large address aware restrictions have of course nothing to do with Bethesda/Skyrim and are merely a consequence of the industry continuing to create 32bit binaries out of necessity, even though the 32bit capability was designed to have a maximum hardware resource budget of a computer still using a Turbo button.
It isn’t Bethesda’s fault the vast majority of people are still on 32bit operating systems despite the breakneck pace of premium gaming hardware, anymore that it is IPv4s fault the internet is based on an addressing system that is running out of available parking spots despite the breakneck pace of webspace adoption.
I feel especially bad for those of you enjoying the game with deeply invested save files that are now running into CTDs and other issues that you had every right to believe you’d sidestepped due to your preference to play on the SuperPlayBoxStation 1080, x64 Edition. But it’s exactly because there are so many of you that I’m sure a fix will be released either from Bethesda themselves (HA!) or the modding community (for which I eternally will raise a glass).
So despite this setback, I’ll be purchasing Skyrim late next month all according to plan, as above all else I have every confidence in the combined pride, creativity and intelligence of the modding community to once again pull it out of the fire, back into the hat, and then out of the hat even shinier… and make it all look too easy.
Relax ladies and gentlemen. It’ll all be over soon.
22/11/2011 at 10:17 Cinek says:
Fierce – you are a very lucky man than. :)
I bought game just after release and now dieing due to frustration from immerse amount of bugs this game has.
You can’t even complete THE MAIN PLOT because mission “A Cornered Rat” which is in the middle of the plot is bugged in the way that makes it impossible to complete. (yes, there is a way to by-pass the bug by decompressing sound files but hell – I bought a game and I’m not going to do developers work! THEY are people supposed to fix this crap not ME.)
Besides that there’s shitton of crashes, pathfinding is horrible, about 1/5th of quests got various bugs and glitches, player often gets stuck in ground while attacking and can’t move towards enemy afterwards, opponents sometimes don’t react on you attacking them, or NPCs do various crazy things (like having 3 NPCs talking at a time while you can’t understand any of them, or NPCs referring to you as a magician while I’m running with two swords, Dragon armor and almost never use spells, just a brute force, not even saying about Lidia having AI on the level worse the turtle in Mario games (at least turtle could find a path to Mario) ).
Perhaps it’s because I play this game a lot, cause I heard opinions that this game is bugless (made by people on level 12, ROTFL), but seriously: I’m happy for everyone who wait for this game to be discounted and patched. It’s definitely not worth even half of money it costs currently.
22/11/2011 at 10:29 jezcentral says:
Damn, i thought, as an official Games for Windows title, that this had to have a 64-bit executable.
This was one of the great things about GFW (which is not GFWL, don’t forget). When did this requirement fall by the wayside?
22/11/2011 at 10:48 Droniac says:
@Fierce – Bethesda is targeting PC gamers on Steam with their PC releases, as evidenced by their games being Steam exclusives. As such your statement isn’t exactly true, because within their target market the vast majority of potential clients is using a 64-bit operating system. This can easily be deduced from the Steam Hardware Survey statistics which show only 39.5% of Steam users on a 32-bit Windows operating system. As such it’s fair to say that Bethesda is ignoring the larger portion of its PC audience.
And that’s ignoring the fact that a majority of those 39.5% 32-bit Windows users have systems that can’t run Skyrim at all or only barely at minimum detail in very low resolution.
22/11/2011 at 11:01 erkha says:
Hello :3
22/11/2011 at 11:52 Harlander says:
That’s a fact, is it?
22/11/2011 at 12:07 amorpheous says:
First thing I did when applying the LAA patch was to switch off Steam auto-updates for Skyrim. I’m all for patches (that do something useful which isn’t the case here), but I’m not having Bethesda screw up my tweaks/mods without my permission.
22/11/2011 at 12:18 phuzz says:
I did wonder why I was suddenly getting CTD or hangs when trying to exit the dungeon I’d saved in last night. I ended up having to go back to the default skyrim.ini (good thing I kept a copy!) before I could get it to work.
Pedant mode on:
Actually, from a technical side of things making the executable Large Address Aware, enables it to access the entire 32bit address space of RAM (well, just under) of 4Gb, without it tops out at 2GB or RAM.
A true 64bit executable would be able to utilise $lots* of RAM.
Pedant mode off.
*it should be 2^64 bits, but it’s actually lower than that for various reasons, and Windows limits that further (see here), but it’s still 8Gb even for the cheapest version.
22/11/2011 at 12:31 Triangulon says:
I would like to point out that my version crashes constantly (every 5-10 minutes) on a 32-bit system without the LAA fix. So it is not just a case of catering to 32-bit users…
22/11/2011 at 13:11 glocks4interns says:
Let me just say that I’m very happy that a DRM patch came out much quicker than the content patch. It really shows a dedication to the best possible customer experience.
22/11/2011 at 17:19 Burning Man says:
I sense that Fierce made several snide remarks about the state of my beloved computer but I’m really not sure. I feel confused.
22/11/2011 at 20:55 Droopy The Dog says:
@Fierce – You do know that the large adress aware flag doesn’t magically make executables 64bit don’t you? It’s just a flag that lets windows do clever things with the memory adresses so you can use more than 2GB in a 32bit environment.
So in it’s just in your imagination that the “majority” on 32bit OSes are holding developers back from just adding a simple toggle in the launcher to make the 32bit executable large adress aware or not.
22/11/2011 at 21:59 Fierce says:
@ Droniac:
What you have just said is evidence of a fallacy of logic. It’s fine, lots of people do it but let me break it down for you so you can learn of what you just did.
You’ve said that Bethesda, by having its game on Steam, has freely chosen to cater to Steam users as its PC market and that it is a misstep on their part to have ignored the survey percentages and thus upset large swaths of its entire “audience”.
But in essence you’re stating that because Bethesda chose to use Steam as its form of DRM, 1) it should have begun development of its game only after looking at results of a userbase survey (ironically designed to help Valve design better games), 2) that because of the survey contents, every game developer in the industry is thus obligated to create a 64bit binary version of their game (or ship LAA modified 32bit binaries) for Steam users as well as a non-modified 32bit binary for consoles/the rest of the users and 3) that to not do so is synonymous with ‘ignoring’ the ‘majority’ portion of their targeted audience, to the justified and eternal ire of said target market.
No, that’s not how game development works. No, that’s not how ‘maximum profit, minimum effort’ capitalism works. No, these are not rational conclusions to reach given this situation and seem more influenced by suffering an emotional affront of being unable to play a very enjoyable, somewhat addictive, highly invested in video game than by actual knowledge of how the game came to exist, the obligations of the developers to law or facts about percentages of users of a percentage of a playerbase having anything to do with how Bethesda operates.
As an aside, its also a little weird that you equate being on the Steam hardware survey as being a participant in the PC market, as if it isn’t possible for someone who isn’t on Steam to purchase the game and subsequently join (it is), or that every single person on Steam right now has been tapped by the Opt-in survey at least once (they haven’t), or even that every user with a 64bit OS has more than 2GB of RAM (some don’t). Possibilities outside of the norm very much exist, which is why not leaning too heavily on statistics for grand sweeping statements like the ones you’ve made is wise.
@ Burning Man:
Not at all. I made a pun about how PCs are substantially more powerful than consoles and so we expect a certain level of payoff when modifying our games to push beyond the envelope game developers are chained to for obvious industry reasons. Lay your confusion to rest, my good burning man.
@ Droopy the Dog
Yes, I am very aware of the nature of the flag. My paragraph intended to state that “If everyone was in a 64bit environment, 32bit binaries and workaround flags wouldn’t be created or necessary anymore”, though I can see how it can be read as “32bit OSs are holding developers back from abandoning 32bit binaries and making 64bit only for the benefit of all”.
To further help, a quick summary. 64bit OSs are like IPv6. Both systems are capable of doing more, and better, than their predecessors, so we all could be using them as they’re the best of both worlds and provide no problems running 32bit / IPv4 situations in tandem with them. But we aren’t because it isn’t cost effective, time efficient, the 11th hour of Necessity and et cetera. It is much easier to find workarounds and mitigate the effects of an unforeseen problem to an established infrastructure than to redesign the entire infrastructure. Adaption over Re-evolution.
So we will adapt, and we are adapting, thus the flag. But the overall dark cloud still looms which is the angle I approached from with my words.
23/11/2011 at 00:41 freestonew says:
yipes!
I saw it coming a few years ago, and I still think it is not over yet: soon almost all the game sales services will not only have you to be *on* their site while playing, you will have a special cloud
file in your account for your saves such that you will *have* to be tied into this Steam, or whatever, game system. no more “offline”.
I saw this coming when a man visited China and saw on the village market stall counters, counterfeit copies of a new windows system, like win xp, many many of them, all over where ever he looked, and Microsoft had YET to release this to the public!
Same with movies.
what is it, 20 to 40 percent of major game sales are pirated copies?!
thus i see no end to this “escalation” of this sort of “Protection”.
there *must* be a way to fix this.
what bothers me too is that a “regular” install of a heavy-modded game, is easier than installing mods into the steam folder.
what surprised me after I installed Skyrim is that this game is *REALLY* A STEAM GAME, whether you bought a box or downloaded it from steam! after all, the files are *in* the steam folders.
freestone
22/11/2011 at 08:45 <]:^D says:
I just can’t believe that the people who make such wonderful games could be this stupid. Therefore I think that this is done by a completely separate office to the actual developers and they’re just as pissed off as we are. At least I hope that’s the case.
22/11/2011 at 10:06 HelderPinto says:
That is almost always the case, yes.
22/11/2011 at 08:45 Lobotomist says:
Its sad that sometimes ( unfortunately too often ) cracked games perform better than original versions.
Shame that many game companies insist on doing that.
I really thought that Bethesda is more liberal on that point. But , turns out , its not the fact anymore…
Anyway. Thanks for heads up. I will disable steam patching of Skyrim for the moment…
22/11/2011 at 08:51 Zakkeh says:
I wouldn’t say the cracked versions perform all that well. A friend of mine who’s strapped for cash tried a pirated version, and he’s had a number of bugs that blow any of my small issues out of the water.
One only needs to look at the comments on any torrent just to see how many people have issues with these less-than-perfect piracies.
22/11/2011 at 08:59 GeneralSalad says:
Funny, I cracked my copy and have had zero crashes in over 30 hours of play. Its probably far more likely that the people with the issues PC’s can’t handle the game.
And it is for reasons similar to this that I cracked it.
22/11/2011 at 09:06 WPUN says:
***Mature*** cracked games always out-perform the standard version. Anyone remember that little Oblivion bug where all animations slow down to a crawl? Good job Bathshebabub!
Maybe if they keep shooting themselves in the foot they’ll make a hole all the way through the earth and kill a pirate in China.
22/11/2011 at 09:17 Orija says:
Running the cracked version with zero issues.
22/11/2011 at 09:22 Gnoupi says:
Ok, we got it. We don’t need a list of “running the cracked version with no issues”.
If you actually spend hours on it, no pride in claiming you run a pirated version, just go buy it.
22/11/2011 at 09:27 Orija says:
The game’s unavailable in my country, I tend to buy all the games that are.
22/11/2011 at 09:44 Seboss says:
@Gnoupi Who said they did not buy it in the first place? I’ve been buying my games for a long time, but I always used a No-CD crack when available to get rid of the stupid CD protection crap.
22/11/2011 at 10:03 Cinek says:
“I wouldn’t say the cracked versions perform all that well. A friend of mine who’s strapped for cash tried a pirated version, and he’s had a number of bugs that blow any of my small issues out of the water.”
Last night I was playing while commenting the game on Skype with my friend. I got legit version, he got pirate.
Guess what?
In 4 hours of game I got like… 10 crashes.
Pirate version? No crashes at all.
You see – in case of Skyrim crashes are related to specific PCs, not to pirate or legit version issue.
22/11/2011 at 10:06 MrDreadlock says:
Yep, same story here, and I’m definitely not proud of that.
It seems this is going to be the third game from Beth (both Fallouts had some region/language incompatibilities that result in no DLC support in my country) that I bought, and im going to play with pirated copy.
And It’s not even funny anymore that I get more support and understanding from scene crackers than game developers, probably beacause the later are quite busy nuking their own release.
22/11/2011 at 10:52 TODD says:
I often download the cracked version of a game after I buy it because of exactly this kind of bullshit. I should have done the same thing for Skyrim before Steam broke all my mods with this un-patch.
22/11/2011 at 12:12 aerozol says:
Haha, and some corporate guy is in his office looking at torrents, and going “We need to crack down! We’re losing two thirds of our revenue!”, while half the downloaders on there have already bought the game, and are dl’ing the issue-free moddable cracked version, while the other half got used to the idea when they were forced to do it a few games back, and just didn’t bother buying the broken version at all.
Ok, I made all that up, but they’re pulling numbers out of nowhere all the time too. And a seed of that sad tale will inevitably be true.
22/11/2011 at 16:49 Urthman says:
Anyone remember that little Oblivion bug where all animations slow down to a crawl? Good job Bathshebabub!
If you’re talking about the abomb bug, that’s a bug that only crops up if you’ve got more than 200 hours on a single saved-game (and I think you need more than 400hrs if you’re playing on Xbox). That’s annoying, but it’s hard to fault Bethesda for failing to catch something like that.
27/11/2011 at 02:52 Nesetalis says:
nearly every game, if possible, I crack it, no-cd it, or otherwise circumvent the DRM… simply stated, I bought the game, why should the pirates get to play it better than me, for free? :p
I cracked skyrim too, and I’ve had no problems (though that silly sound bug in the main plot was annoying, but the fallout new vegas editor was able to extract the files)
I consider the crack just another mod to make my game more enjoyable.
22/11/2011 at 08:47 Crimsoneer says:
I’m mystified by this….Why? Pirates already have the damn game!
22/11/2011 at 08:53 Juan Carlo says:
I could see it being a legal requirement. It is a steamworks game afterall so they could have very well been in violation of their contract with Valve if the game could run without steam.
22/11/2011 at 09:21 Optimaximal says:
I don’t think that’s the case, especially as many of the older DOSBox’ed games (i.e. the id back-catalogue) can be run outside of Steam etc.
I think it’s really just more of a case of Valve saying “Hey, Bethesda, we see you didn’t enforce our Steam-DRM on the exe – if it gets pirated, don’t come crawling to us”.
22/11/2011 at 09:26 EOT says:
Doubtful. Plenty of games sold through steam work without steam running (thankfully as they’re all I had when steam’s offline mode shit the bed recently) but they are mostly small, sub £15 indies.
So it is likely that it’s BethSoft’s decision uninformed by Valve.
22/11/2011 at 10:03 FhnuZoag says:
This, folks, is why the Steam monopoly is a bad thing for the consumer.
22/11/2011 at 10:11 Juan Carlo says:
True, lots of games sold through steam don’t need steam. But there’s a difference between your average game sold on steam and a steamworks game (which is a game that REQUIRES steam, regardless of where it’s sold).
Skyrim is a steamworks game, which means it requires steam regardless of where it’s sold. As such, I could see it having contractual obligations that other non-steamworks games sold on steam might not have to follow–including, I would imagine, the requirement that it can only be run through steam.
22/11/2011 at 10:33 Emeraude says:
And people mocked me when I said I was boycotting the game because of Steamworks…
22/11/2011 at 10:33 RedNick says:
I’m fairly certain its not a requirement from Valve. Valve have always said developers can pick and choose which bits of Steamworks they want, including the DRM
22/11/2011 at 14:06 Kadayi says:
@Emeraude
You boycott games that have Steamworks? How quaint.
22/11/2011 at 22:11 Kantorai says:
I’m with Emeraude on this: Don’t buy games that have to registered/run via Steam!
Why make Steam’s monopoly stronger? Shit like this will just keep on coming. I vote with my wallet.
22/11/2011 at 08:47 <]:^D says:
Bethesda are such plonkers – they’ve also locked the original forum thread.
22/11/2011 at 09:29 capeutaine says:
Not really,
If you read correctly you will see that the post limit was reached. Another thread has been opened : http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1284665-skyrim-just-updated-via-steam-thread-2/
22/11/2011 at 08:47 Velvetmeds says:
Use this http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1013
Problem solved.
Better update the news story or a lot of people will miss these comments
22/11/2011 at 08:49 virtualmatrix258 says:
And this is why games are pirated. I’ve just uninstalled it from Steam and I’m grabbing the pirated version so I can actually play my PC game the way it’s meant to be played. Not cool Bathesda. I honestly think they’re peeved that the PC community actually found out about the tweaks.
22/11/2011 at 08:50 RauTheLegendary says:
I’m geussing this will make my russian version unplayable without VPN as well? I’ll hold off patching the game for now.
23/11/2011 at 20:11 Alex Vojacek says:
It WILL destroy your Russian copy, It already destroyed mine, now it is rendered useless and I can’t play the game nor online/offline or loading the .exe alone.
Even Steam support told me to bypass Steam running the executable when I complained with a Support Ticket.
This game will get a very hard and bad review for this. I strictly bought the game for review purpose and will not let a company do this to me anymore. Bethesda you SUCK.
Never ever “enforce” a more draconian DRM after you already launched a game, that’s a wonderful way of screwing up customers even more.
Now, tell me, why the rest that didn’t bought the game can run it perfectly with a simple crack is beyond me, stupid companies NEVER LEARN !
22/11/2011 at 08:50 Mephisto says:
I had over 40 hours of great Skyrim gaming. Slaying dragons, besting undead lords, and becoming more powerful.
I have no defence against the crashes to desktop every 10 minutes beast, that this patch has spawned.
22/11/2011 at 08:51 Drake Sigar says:
I just got a warning message that my games might not save now?
Why couldn’t they leave well enough alone. :(
22/11/2011 at 08:53 benjaminlobato says:
Makes no sense. Pirated versions already exist and won’t be automatically patched. Why remove functionality from those who have actually bought the game already?
22/11/2011 at 09:05 12kill4 says:
They are probably trying to close the loophole that people were using to bypass region protection on purchased Russian keys, and thus perpetuate their ridiculous pricing schemes in countries like Australia- where we are charged as much as $90US, as opposed to the $34.99US many key sites were offering.
22/11/2011 at 08:54 neolith says:
What. The. Fuck.
I really cannot see how Bethesda can be THAT stupid.
IIRC it was possible to deactivate the auto-updates for Steam, wasn’t it? I’ll have to search for that option this evening…
22/11/2011 at 09:31 aizvara says:
I did the whole use-more-memory-please patch, and then purposefully ticked “don’t update automatically”, but my Skyrim updated anyway last night. I tend to stop auto updates anyway, as my connection is slow and updating can cause me to not be able to play a game for weeks.
22/11/2011 at 15:42 nephilim83 says:
Steam can just reactivate the auto-updates any ol’ time it pleases, so the feature is worthless. If you really want to stop a game from being updated automatically, you have to go into the Steam folder, find the game, and make everything in that game’s folder “read-only.” I had to do this for Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines. Otherwise it patches my game into an unplayable mess.
22/11/2011 at 16:33 Arglebargle says:
Thanks for that tip Neph. My experiance of it is that Steam resets flags to auto update everytime it updates itself. Which means, essentially, every week. I ran into this to my displeasure with some of the Paradox games where saves are unuseable by newly patched versions.
Fortunately I had a back up for Skyrim.
22/11/2011 at 08:57 JDragnarok says:
Relax, Babycakes, have a piece of cheese.
Seriously though, I wish Bethesda valued the dedication and work that modders put into fixing their game for them.
I was very annoyed my hard copy DVD required DRM through steam, I hoped that when i got home after a midnight release (in New Zealand) that i would not have to wait to play it. I was wrong. I admit the wait was not as long as expected (2hrs+very, very slow patching due to everyone using nz/aus cloud servers) a total of about 5 hours after getting home from a midnight release.
…Still playing it, though. Still swear every time the perks “abomination” does not go to the star i want, too.
22/11/2011 at 12:26 aerozol says:
Hmm, you a friend of Nicks by any chance?
22/11/2011 at 09:07 dsi1 says:
Note that you can, if you’re on Win7(Unsure about Vista) just recover your old version of the TESV executable, Right Click -> Properties -> Previous Versions and wait a moment for it to dig up the old version.
It’d be a good idea to exempt Skyrim from autoupdates by Steam at this point too, Right Click on the game in your library -> Properties -> Updates -> Switch from “Always…” to “Do not…”.
The patch also might have overwritten your ini files if you didn’t already make them Read Only!
22/11/2011 at 09:22 Optimaximal says:
Ofc, that will only work if you have enabled Shadow Copy/Previous Versions in the OS.
22/11/2011 at 19:45 dsi1 says:
It seems to be enabled by default, I never explicitly enabled it myself and it still worked.
22/11/2011 at 21:06 Droopy The Dog says:
Only on the same partition as your OS I think. So if you install your games on a dif partion it’ll be no dice I’m afraid.
22/11/2011 at 09:10 OJSlaughter says:
The Fun Loving Developer clearly didn’t want this patch and the Evil Mojang-Hating Publisher clearly forced it through!
I don’t know that is true, I just believe it to be true so I don’t get depressed
22/11/2011 at 09:17 pacificator says:
“But if only they’d officially add support for more than 2GB of RAM: this is 2011, for heaven’s sake.”
This is a WINODWS limitation, nothing to do with the actual game. Windows lets x32 programs to use only 2GB of ram, and the LAA hack is basically telling WINDOWS to let the exe use more than 2 GB.
So let’s first understand the issue at hand here and then start blaming devs and making pointless remarks.
The devs are not here to screw us off, maybe the contract with valve had some remarks about the drm integration and they did not really respect them at launch and now were forced to patch the game in order to comply with the initial deal.
Just sayin…Let’s not be all negative about it. I am sure that issues are getting the required attention.
22/11/2011 at 09:23 pacificator says:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/wz223b1z%28v=vs.80%29.aspx
Here is the documentation for the linker option. (they could have used this with the usual build of the game), however if you have less than 3GB of ram it is really advised NOT to use this flag.
Since the minimum SPECS for the game are less than 3GB of ram i can UNDERSTAND why they did not include it in the first place.
A good fix would have been 2 builds(x32 and x64). Apparently for whatever reason they decided not to have an x64 build (most games don’t do it anyway because it is hard and expensive to maintain 2 versions of the game at the same time so this is not uncommon).
22/11/2011 at 09:24 sassy says:
Umm I think you need to look into the issue again. This has absolutely nothing to do with windows, this is entirely Bethesda at fault.
Bethesda could have easily released this as a 64 bit game but they chose to use 32 bit which is what is causing the issue. They could have done both if they were so concerned about the people whom aren’t using a 64 bit processor (or using a 64 bit processor exclusively in 32 bit mode) but they didn’t.
22/11/2011 at 09:26 Gnoupi says:
Then why shipping only a 32bits exe, if this is the only issue?
edit: oh well, others said it better already
22/11/2011 at 09:28 ColdDeath says:
it really isn’t that hard to include both a 32 and a 64 bit version of the game and just install the appropriate one…
22/11/2011 at 09:30 daf says:
While the mod patch was a “hack” all it’s really doing is enabling the LAA flag on the exe, something the developer could easily do by toggling /LARGEADDRESSAWARE on the linker when compiling.
Windows doesn’t do it by default due to compatibility, so it’s on Bethesda developers to optin, why they didn’t is likely the same reason they didn’t make a 64bit binary which would bypass any memory address limitation in the first place. Basicly, too much work (double the QA for everything since there would be “two” pc versions) for the benefit of a “small” number of people.
PS: Alas I write too slow… However some aditional detail for the technically inclined ones.
22/11/2011 at 09:31 pacificator says:
Yup there is a valid point there, but as I said this was done because it’s easier to maintain just one version of the game. This is why most people are just releasing x32 and not both versions. So yeah.. My rant was about the using the term FIX. It’s not about fixing the game is about doing a different build (for x64).
/LAA and x64 bit are 2 different things. With /LAA you still have x32 bit exe that can access more memory. With x64 bit exe you have a whole diffrent thing.
Using /LAA on systems with less than 3GB of ram will just bloody explode in your face.
22/11/2011 at 09:45 Nevard says:
As a programmer I can tell you it is far more annoying than it sounds to keep two identical versions of a program running.
If one version will run on both kinds of PC and the other will only run on one, I really don’t blame them for wanting to save themselves a headache and only build 32 bit versions.
22/11/2011 at 10:02 sassy says:
As a programmer I can say the same thing but as a consumer who spent $90 on a product that now crashes constantly I can say that I don’t care if it’s a PITA, make the game work even if it means that you have to put additional resources into it.
To the person who said x64 users are a small part of the market, that might have once been the case but not anymore. According to steams hardware survey 55% of users are using a 64 bit version of Windows. Since this game is a steamworks game we can therefore assume that 55% of their market would have benefited by an x64 version. Personally I think the percentage benefit would be more than that but have no data to back that up so I will leave it at that.
22/11/2011 at 10:17 pacificator says:
Well yeah, but this is the main disadvantage of supporting PC gaming. I can honestly say that the game worked for me on a relative modest (win7 x64) system without any mods (except tree self shadow thing) played it the whole weekend (10h plus runs each day with only a crash). on other systems you get crashes every 4h for whatever reason…
I also played it after the patch with no differences. I would vote to have steam cloud integrated into it than an x64 version. this way i would have my saves at work without extra clicks done by me but i’m just selfish:)).
They should include bug report tools (let’s say upload a crashdump with system info and other debug stuff in order to help them fix the problem each time the game crashes). Wouldn’t it be awesome if let’s say i have a crash every 4h, I just enable logs, run the game get the crash and then have a tool pop-up each time the game crashes and asks me if i want to send the dump to them?. They can see easy detect and fix the problem then.
22/11/2011 at 10:34 spanner says:
2GB ought to be enough for anybody.
22/11/2011 at 11:48 thegooseking says:
Well, yes, but the major difference is just that 64-bit processes have /LAA set by default. If you were to turn it off (which you can, and, I don’t know, might want to, under some circumstances), even a 64-bit process would only be able to access 2GB.
But yes, there’s also a difference to how much they can access with /LAA on. A 32-bit process with /LAA is limited to 4GB (or 3GB on 32-bit OSs), while a 64-bit process with /LAA can theoretically use up to 8TB (theoretically because no version of Windows actually supports that much RAM: Windows 7 Home Basic and Premium only support 8GB and 16GB respectively, and Professional and up 192GB. Even Server 2008 R2 “only” supports 2TB).
22/11/2011 at 12:25 sneetch says:
@spanner
“2GB ought to be enough for anybody.”
Bill? Is that you?
22/11/2011 at 12:33 pacificator says:
@thegooseking
True, and there is a really good reason not to turn it on by default for 32 bit processes.
22/11/2011 at 12:54 frymaster says:
@pacificator:
thing is, on 32-bit windows, even if you have LAA set, it’ll still only use 2 gigs unless you set a boot flag option
it can be safely assumed that anyone who sets that option has enough RAM. The process then gets up to 3 gigs of virtual address space (depending on how the boot option was set).
On 64-bit windows, setting LAA on a 32-bit program lets the program address up to 4 gigs, but I think assuming anyone on 64-bit has at least that amount of RAM is fair.
Certainly RAGE and X3:TC both set LAA
22/11/2011 at 22:10 Nevard says:
55% of users have a 64 bit machine you say?
But a 32 bit client runs on 100% of machines!
I’d go with the 100% myself.
22/11/2011 at 09:22 anthonyrichard says:
So glad I finished the game yesterday. All this time i’ve had to run it directly via the TESV executable since it wouldn’t start through steam on my machine (infinite loop of “preparing to launch” screens starting and closing).
With this patch I won’t be able to run the game at all without resorting to getting a cracked pirate exe, which is ridiculous.
22/11/2011 at 09:23 Rao Dao Zao says:
The game could have been run without Steam? Bloody hell, maybe I should have day-one bought it.
22/11/2011 at 10:33 Emeraude says:
You still would have been forced to use Steam for installation, though…
22/11/2011 at 09:29 Hodge says:
Strangely, my (Australian store-bought) copy seemed to be linked to Steam right from the start, i.e. Launching it via the TESV.exe always caused Steam to load first.
Did my copy come from the future or something?
22/11/2011 at 09:40 sassy says:
it’s all just a timezone thing, Australia are hours in front of Bethesda :P
22/11/2011 at 09:29 Gothnak says:
My favourite thing about the patch?…
I haven’t modded my game at all, and when i tried to run it yesterday evening, it didn’t work… It ran the launcher and when i hit play, it took it back to the launcher.. The culprit, why the patch had deleted TESV.exe, so that was useful.
Seems on various forums that it was affecting a lot of people, great patch, it just deletes the main game exe, i guess that stops people copying it.
(Verifying game files fixed it, but still :(… If the game wasn’t perhaps the best game i have ever played i may have been more annoyed)
22/11/2011 at 09:29 The Sombrero Kid says:
While it’s annoying they haven’t moved over to 64bit executables, it’s better it’s done right rather than patching a 32bit exe, here’s hoping they do it right.
I don’t think anyone has the right to get mad about them putting in post release the drm they were supposed to have on release.
22/11/2011 at 09:37 sassy says:
When it’s causing lots of crashing issues and blocking us from doing harmless tweaks (on a game that the developer supports modding) then we are fully entitled to get mad.
Sure it would be nice to get a x64 executable but short of that, the patch works. It might not be ideal but when it’s the difference between the game basically being broken and it running fine then who cares about ideal? It isn’t like Bethesda are going to do anything about this, they have ignored us repeatedly in the past.
22/11/2011 at 10:22 Ovno says:
I think you’ll find people have the right to get annoyed about whatever they damn well please…
22/11/2011 at 11:00 sneetch says:
But how do you know if you have the right to be mad about something? Is there a list somewhere? Do we ask you, Sombrero Kid? ;)
Do we have the right to be annoyed that they don’t have a 64bit executable?
22/11/2011 at 11:03 The Sombrero Kid says:
I Will personally approve all valid petitions for approval of right to be mad on this thread here.
22/11/2011 at 11:06 Grygus says:
That’s a straw man, my friend. Nobody’s really mad about the DRM; we all knew it was Steam well before launch. They’re mad because their game stopped working. The fact that the patch that broke it fixed the DRM is just bonus rage material, since it explicitly sends the message that Bethesda’s interests are ahead of those of their paying customers. Note that pirates are utterly unaffected by this patch, so this DRM change was strictly aimed at their legitimate users. So, since the DRM can’t affect the people it is designed to thwart, their game was broken for literally no reason. That’s where the frustration comes from, and it is quite reasonable.
22/11/2011 at 14:16 The Sombrero Kid says:
Claiming something is a Straw man is a Staw man & you’d have to be a complete thicko to think that exe hacks would perpetuate between patches regardless of what the patch was it was always going to disable the ram hack.
22/11/2011 at 09:29 applecado says:
Loads of crashes since the update. Literally 1 C2D every 15 minutes. A real pain on a game like this :(
22/11/2011 at 09:51 danimalkingdom says:
I’m digressing, but isn’t ‘TESIV’ only one letter short of ‘Skyrim’? Does that not make this abbreviation unnecessary?
22/11/2011 at 09:55 Fierce says:
Never try to argue logic when it comes to abbreviations.
They weren’t born of logic, and they won’t die from logic.
22/11/2011 at 10:09 Squirrelfanatic says:
It’s TESV though, so… there you go.
22/11/2011 at 13:07 mana says:
I know what you are saying, but it’s The Elder Scrolls 5, surely :D
Or a question off Mock the Week…
or both…
22/11/2011 at 10:00 Velvetmeds says:
Just use the damn new mod.
22/11/2011 at 10:07 Brumisator says:
Gotta love this “enirely new engine” they used to make Skyrim.
22/11/2011 at 10:44 mf says:
By the way, the russian key for skyrim cost me 17USD (13euro). One of the benefits of living near Russia (considered Russia by steam) but not actually in Russia.
Speaking of the patch, it also broke my game. Missing textures and CTD-s. I reverted back to previous exe but with the new workaround, I’ll give it another shot.
While steam and bethsoft are usually great, they do have their shitty days.
PS. I feel so bad for you Australian gamers. I would NEVER pay $90 for a game. Not even for my top 3 games of all time (Thief, Deus Ex and System Shock2). And I love these games more than my wife :)
22/11/2011 at 10:47 michal.lewtak says:
I did notice I can run the game without Steam, but I ran it with Steam anyway to keep counting my play hours and also to get achievements, because they’re fair and fun in this game. This patch was probably done in a hurry once they discovered it, and they weren’t intending to break the functionality of good mods. I guess It was just a requirement from Valve to make it unplayable without Steam. Hopefully we’ll soon get a proper patch to fix this patch, and some PC UI for that matter.
22/11/2011 at 10:50 Iskariot says:
It is ridiculous. Why don’t they just release everything with Large Address Aware activated?
I suppose it is to costly, because they have to fly in 20 specially trained guys from Proxima Centauri to change the setting. And it takes at least three months to do it.
22/11/2011 at 12:39 phuzz says:
It’s dead easy to change, but it might/will cause problems on systems with less than 3Gb of RAM, which is probably their reason for not enabling it.
*edit, I’ve just read the official microsoft documentation on it here, which says the following:
“Specifying Large-Address-Aware When Building
It is a good practice to specify large-address-aware when building 32-bit applications, by using the linker flag /LARGEADDRESSAWARE, even if the application is not intended for a 64-bit platform, because of the advantages that are gained at no cost. As explained earlier, enabling this flag for a build allows a 32-bit program to access more memory with special boot options on a 32-bit OS or on a 64-bit OS. However, developers must be careful that pointer assumptions are not made, such as assuming that the high-bit is never set in a 32-bit pointer. In general, enabling the /LARGEADDRESSAWARE flag is a good practice.”
So basically They’re being lazy.
22/11/2011 at 10:59 Cunzy1 1 says:
The lovely Skyrim articles that have been written since the game launched have made me regret that I don’t have a PC that can run most new games. Then stuff like this happens and makes me scurry back to my console.
This stuff just shouldn’t happen in 2011.
22/11/2011 at 11:02 caddyB says:
Oh the things we have to suffer to spend just a bit more time with Lydia.
22/11/2011 at 11:15 nope.avi says:
Bethesda doesn’t care about
black pePC gamers.22/11/2011 at 11:29 rehpotsirhic says:
I had to use the large address aware third-party patch otherwise the game would crash on me every 5 mins. It fixed it, but recently it started crashing again, I guess it is because of this patch…
ah well, I just hope that LAA workaround will do the job.
Seriously Bethesda…if I didn’t know I could fix it, I would have just stopped playing your game because you insist on restricting the process to 2gb causing it to crash.
22/11/2011 at 11:47 Arkanos says:
They’re not restricting it on purpose, the restriction is for 32-bit systems which rarely have an amount of ram above 2gb usable by an application.
22/11/2011 at 16:31 rehpotsirhic says:
but can they not put in a simple If statement that works out whether it is being run on a 64-bit machine, and subsequently applies LAA if needed?
22/11/2011 at 11:45 Arkanos says:
I have 24gb of ram. It bugs me when games don’t load everything into ram.
22/11/2011 at 12:05 MajorManiac says:
Its funny, but I never even thought Skyrim wouldn’t be using a sensible portion of my RAM.
Thanks for the heads-up. I’ll try the mod.
22/11/2011 at 12:34 JackShandy says:
Downloaded Skyrim legit on steam, used the Large Address Aware patch to make it prettier and was pleasantly surprised to find it let me use it without activating steam.
During the time I’ve had it, Steam has been: telling me my game files are dead and forcing me to redownload them, deleting my login data, spending hours applying updates I don’t care about, and – last but not least- just plain dying completely and barring me access to all my games. This was especially infuriating when I physically bought Human Revolution from a physical store and put the disk in to find that steam wouldn’t let me play it. Don’t get me started on what it’s been doing to skyrim; I must have run through twenty backups. I’m sick to death of it, and now that I’ve freed Skyrim from it’s grasp I’m never going to access it through there again.
Steam’s just a piece of software, which can fail like any other piece of software. Difference is, when it does, all of your games are gone. I’m no longer interested in solving the problems it’s created. From here on in, I’ve decided to just download every game I buy from the pirate bay.
22/11/2011 at 13:00 Kaira- says:
Great customer service, I see. Seems like the choice not buy the game yet was wise.
22/11/2011 at 13:07 Cameron says:
Speaking as a wall of text I would like to address comments by the “Bethesda should set LAA as default” and “Bethesda should release 64 bit executables” crowd.
Setting an executable image to LARGEADDRESSAWARE is the way that an executable can say to Windows “It’s ok, this software is fine and dandy with addresses over the 2GB space”. There are a few, albeit unlikely, caveats that an executable can fall into when dealing with more memory.
One problem with this arises from the fact that not all of the games code comes from the developer its self. Bethesda doing this would be saying “Yep, the code from us, from Havok et al. is fine with large addresses”. How likely it is that Bethesda will suffer the expense of letting its programmers figure out if that is the case? Then the expense of tech support costs if it turns out not to be the case after all.
Rapidly addressing the “Release 64 bit crowd” . This may be down to the same reason, it is entirely possible that not all of Bethesda’s suppliers offer 64bit versions. Even if that were not the case, given past performance, I doubt Bethesda would want to take on extra expense for maintaining and supporting two different PC versions (32 bit and 64 bit).
And finally!
What’s with these “As a programmer” posts of late? I think this year I may get some custom made cards made up with “As a programmer I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas!”.
22/11/2011 at 14:08 Ajh says:
Won’t companies have to release 64 bit versions eventually though? I hear windows will be cutting out 32 bit support in the coming years.
22/11/2011 at 14:19 Cameron says:
@Ajh
Oh, most certainly. But at that point releasing a 32bit version of a game would probably be like Bethesda making Skyrim support versions of Windows prior to XP.
22/11/2011 at 17:04 sassy says:
Bethesda are sitting on a new game that has already made them a lot of money and will continue doing so into the future. The community around Skyrim have already pretty clearly stated they want the game to be able to address larger address spaces and have had a way to do that which Bethesda chose to close off. It is not too much for us to expect them to provide us with code that can do it. Even if that means they provide a second executable which they provide no support for that has the LARGEADDRESSSPACE flag set.
Games in the past have provided unsupported use at your own risk versions and nobody complained. It’s not like people will complain that the game would have to take an extra 20 MB for something they aren’t using since it would add a lot of value for a lot of people.
Not that I would expect Bethesda to do anything about it, they have never been good at supporting their games post release. Plus that takes valuable resources away from creating horse armor … or maybe they’ve learnt from that mistake and are now going to sell us horse hats.
22/11/2011 at 18:47 Unaco says:
@Sassy…
Bethesda are not, intentionally, trying to prevent people using the LAA flag and/or >2GB. It seems it was a side effect of whatever changes they made while tightening up the security. Pete Hines has been tweeting about the new 4GB Skyrim Launcher today, generally pointing people towards it.
http://twitter.com/#!/DCDeacon/status/138991051091349504
22/11/2011 at 13:10 meklu says:
What is it with people not releasing 64-bit executables? Even UT2k4 had one and that was ages ago.
22/11/2011 at 13:11 mana says:
I can only imagine it is the f%cktards at Zenimax who demanded this because some regions like Japan still don’t have the game (say hello to December releases for games for no good reason), and it was too easy to just run the game directly. Of course, as a preload I can’t turn auto-update off, but luckily I still had the original exe, so plopping that over the top of the newly downloaded one fixed it…
no oceans baby,
no drm baby,
oh screw it…
22/11/2011 at 13:22 tehfish says:
I’m fairly sure this patch actually broke something as well.
Have run both with and without the 4GB patch for ~30 hours with no CTDs
with the update i can’t play more than 15minutes without a crash to desktop
When reverting to the original unpatched exe, the game does not crash like the updated version does :s
Running back on the patched original exe for now though.
22/11/2011 at 13:25 SlyDave says:
Another case where people that acquire the game from less than legal means end up with a better gaming experience?
22/11/2011 at 14:00 Ajh says:
Mhmhmm. I’m eyeing cracks for my legal copy now….it’s pretty tempting.
22/11/2011 at 13:27 FieldOfTheBattle says:
So back in the day I decided not to buy Skyrim for now because of Steam and Bethesda has proven this decision to be the right one time and time again. And now this decision is final, I will find me a nice torrent of Skyrim and spend $50 on beer, or maybe I will buy a second copy of Witcher2 from GoG just because they don’t treat their paying customers like pirates and PC users like second class citizens.
22/11/2011 at 14:16 Kadayi says:
Go justify your thievery somewhere else. Plenty of people worked hard on making this game and I doubt anyone cares to hear your mealy mouthed excuses as to why you feel you’re entitled to take the food off their plates.
22/11/2011 at 14:17 Jim Rossignol says:
You are not entitled to the game. If you think the terms of playing it are unjust, then don’t play it.
22/11/2011 at 15:05 wssw4000 says:
Disregarding the piracy=theft nonsense from the shill over there, how is it any different ,from the developers perspective, weather he pirates the game or just doesn’t buy it? And if he is interested in playing the game but won’t pay for it for whatever reason, why should he decide to not play the game instead of torrenting it?
22/11/2011 at 15:20 Cameron says:
@wssw4000
Besides the fact that if everyone did that Bethesda wouldn’t even be able to afford to create an options screen?
Believe it or not pirates may not be telling the whole truth. Shocking, I know! How do they know they would never buy it if they couldn’t get it for free? If there is some great Steam sale on in the future where you can pick it up for £10 then a person that has pirated the game and completed it will probably not buy it. Where as someone who didn’t buy it at full RRP because they didn’t think it was worth it may reconsider at a lower cost.
I hate DRM, but I’m not going to kid myself that I’m entitled to it just because I don’t like the way it works. Either I like it enough to buy it or I dislike it enough not to want it. Anything in between is just using the term “principles” to justify self entitlement.
22/11/2011 at 15:39 wssw4000 says:
@Cameron
If everyone was homosexual the human race would die out. However, not everyone is homosexual and not everyone pirates games either. The rest of what you wrote just repeats what the people above said and doesn’t answer my question. It also makes it seem like gamers are like addicts that get delirium tremens if they are somehow not able to play the game. And those steam sales are just a ploy to make impulse buyers spend money on games they never meant and probably never will play.
22/11/2011 at 15:53 Cameron says:
@wssw4000
Please don’t complain about people comparing piracy to theft when you think it reasonable to compare it to homosexuality.
This is my last reply on the subject.
22/11/2011 at 16:00 Unaco says:
“if he is interested in playing the game but won’t pay for it for whatever reason, why should he decide to not play the game instead of torrenting it?”
Because he hasn’t paid for it. No pay, no play. If you’re interested in playing a game, you must like the look/sound of it… You reward Devs, with cash moneys, for creating games you want to play.
22/11/2011 at 16:47 Kadayi says:
@wssw4000
Shill? Seriously get a life. I mean Jez do you even understand the principals of paying for goods/services rendered? Also I’m fairly sure piracy is a choice. I’m agog that you seem to believe that homosexuality is also.
22/11/2011 at 17:04 wssw4000 says:
@Cameron
He didn’t compare piracy to theft, he said piracy is theft. Also, I don’t understand what you mean when you say I “compare piracy to homosexuality”? I thought it was a good example to prove my point.
@Unaco
Again, you are basically repeating what was already said and not really answering my question. He hasn’t paid? So what, why would that stop him? If someone likes something, that doesn’t mean that they are prepared/able to pay the price asked for it or even to pay at all. Lastly, when I buy games I do so because I think they are a product that I want and that is worth my money. I certainly don’t pay for games to “reward the developers” since I couldn’t care less about them and neither should you because you can bet they don’t give a fuck about any of us.
22/11/2011 at 17:24 Unaco says:
@wssw4000
“He hasn’t paid?”
No. He hasn’t paid.
“So what, why would that stop him?”
Because he has no right to the game, no entitlement to it. If he wants to play the game, he pays money for it. Hand over money = Right to play the game.
“Lastly, when I buy games I do so because I think they are a product that I want and that is worth my money.”
So… If he wants to play the game, by your logic, he wants the game and it is worth his money. So, he should pay for the game.
Also, comparing Homosexuality and Piracy… One is a choice, one is not. Not a good comparison.
22/11/2011 at 17:39 iucounu says:
Can we please not do the “Piracy: Is it the Same as Theft?” debate again please? It’s been done so many times in so many places and it’s always people flaming angrily at cross-purposes.
22/11/2011 at 17:52 wssw4000 says:
@Unaco
I usually don’t waste my time on people who resort to responding sentence by sentence but I’ll make an exception this time.
Yes, he hasn’t paid. It doesn’t really change anything though.
You might have misunderstood that other sentence, purposefully or no, so I’ll try again (English is not my native language). If there is a game that I am interested in, and if I also believe that the said game is worth paying for, that is to say, if the game fulfills those two criteria I will buy it.
As for that homosexuality thing, I fail to see what you are saying has to do with what I originally said. They may look like they do but they don’t and i am not versed enough in English to explain it all. You may stop that cheap avenue of attack then.
Edited for clarity.
22/11/2011 at 18:07 Unaco says:
I usually don’t waste my time on people who make themselves out to be victims, automatically assume they are being attacked, denigrate those they are in debate with, insinuate that they are doing something wrong by taking points individually… But I’ll make an exception this time.
“I usually don’t waste my time on people who resort to responding sentence by sentence but I’ll make an exception this time.”
How gracious of you… truly, I am touched by this, that you would lower yourself to respond to my response. I’ll write this date down and remember it for all time.
“Again, you are basically repeating what was already said and not really answering my question. ”
You then asked two questions. I was trying to answer your questions. I was not trying to attack you. Please don’t try and insult me, and make it seem like you’re somehow lowering yourself by responding to me.
“Yes, he hasn’t paid. It doesn’t really change anything though.”
You’re right. Nothing has changed. He has no right to the game. If he had paid, he’d have a right to the game. He’s not using the Pirated game as a demo, or to test stability on his system. He wants to play the game, he doesn’t want to pay for the game, he’s pirated it.
“As for that homosexuality thing, I fail to see what you are saying has to do with what I originally said.”
And I failed to see what your comparison between homosexuality and piracy had to do with the topic, and said so, pointing out that it isn’t a good comparison.
22/11/2011 at 20:47 vecordae says:
You know, there was actually a decent article on Cracked.com talking about ways in which my generation (the elderkin of myth, legend, and Matlock) ruined the current generation (the one that whines the most). One of the things mentioned is that we created the expectation that entertainment has no monetary value. It’s not a scientific article by any means, but it’s rather more entertaining than listening to internet arguments.
Go here: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation_p2/
22/11/2011 at 21:16 wssw4000 says:
@vecordae
Hmm… That article said the PC sales collapsed when downloading became a thing, but from that link it looks more like a moderate decline to me. Also considering that digital sales started to emerge and today hold about half of total PC sales you could argue that sales stayed about the same . The fact that some developers shifted focus to consoles (which are just as much pirated) could also be noted. Can’t comment on the music and films because I don’t know much about that.
22/11/2011 at 21:29 Droopy The Dog says:
Oh god…. Not that article, everything John Cheese has ever wrote has been a half baked “words of wisdom” article, examaining every issue on the most superficial level and coming to flawed conclusions that only make sense if you don’t think about them for more than 5 minutes.
I especially hate how he misinterprets the occupy wall street protest’s intent and turns it into a big self entitlement whine rather than a call to re-evaluate the financial situation and establish limits to which those in arbitrary positions of power are allowed to reward themselves at the expense of those below them.
Cracked is for purile humour and hyperbole about scientific discoveries. Don’t go there for informed political debate. (c.f. their featured halloween video “slutty girls in slutty costumes, whorin’ it up”, they’re not particularly highbrow)
22/11/2011 at 22:02 vecordae says:
@wssw4000
Whether or not the decline was severe or moderate isn’t the point. The point is that, if sales decline, then studios tend to hedge their bets and stick to established money-making formulas. When that happens we get more and more Modern Warfares/Micheal Bay movies/bad pop and less original and interesting games, movies, and music. Saying “piracy doesn’t hurt sales THAT much” rather misses the point. When sales drop, even moderately, the investment capital for unproven small and medium-sized studios tends to dry up as well. This will happen even if the perception that piracy is responsible for the lower return on investment capital isn’t unambiguously supported by the numbers.
Every single time a person claims to pirate a game, no matter what their justification for doing so, it only justifies a perception that is actively contributing to a more artistically restrictive and oppressive environment. Developers and publishers also contribute to it, mind, but you aren’t responsible for their decisions.
22/11/2011 at 22:23 wssw4000 says:
@vecordae
But I already explained in my previous post that PC sales most likely never declined at all, and pointed out to other negative contributors other than piracy. Besides, sales on consoles were rising and yet console games are on average just as derivative and lowest common denominator pandering as PC games. And when the question arises as to why is that, you always hear it’s because games are supposedly so expensive to make and need to sell millions just to turn a profit. This copying of something that’s popular and running it into the ground isn’t even new. It predates the internet and has been standard practice in American entertainment industry for a long time.
23/11/2011 at 00:26 vecordae says:
@wssw4000
I don’t feel inclined to debate further. You’re basically telling me that it’s OK for you to steal something because you’ve read a couple of charts online that say your theft won’t impact anyone you know in a way you care about. Those charts coincide nicely with your position that you shouldn’t have to pay money for things that you want to have. I don’t really think that there’s much more to be said.
22/11/2011 at 13:46 Khemm says:
I’ve said it countless times before – Steam is a major pain in the ass, always creating problems and making modding problematic – look at GTA IV on Steam compared to non-Steam versions. Valve DRM strikes again.
Before anyone says you can prevent auto-updating – try reinstalling or imagine what people who only now bought the game have to go through – they’ll have Skyrim automatically updated to the latest version without being given a choice.
22/11/2011 at 13:57 Cameron says:
As far as I understand it this patch ignored the setting to not auto-update and downloaded it anyway. As Steam are entitled to do as per the EULA (IIRC).
22/11/2011 at 14:55 Rhygadon says:
As Cameron says, they can and do ignore the no-update setting. When I heard about Popcap’s plan to change the Michael Jackson-alike zombie in PvZ, I set that game to not update. Strangely, it did work for a month or two, but then one day it just spontaneously updated itself anyway. (Sniff.)
22/11/2011 at 16:06 Unaco says:
Beth and Steam have gone to efforts to ensure that there won’t be any problems with Skyrim mods and Steam… turning off certain features that would affect certain types of mod, like the Script Extenders.
22/11/2011 at 13:47 Deano2099 says:
The utility that fixes it is the same as has been used for Oblivion and the Fallout games by the mod community for over five years, it works, it doesn’t cause engine problems or anything like that. No reason not to just include both executables and a toggle in the launcher to choose between the two. It’s not about ‘fault’ or ‘blame’ but about something that can be done easily to improve things vastly for a large number of people. Hell, just bundle the exe and don’t include an option if you don’t want to support it. Let people use it optionally.
22/11/2011 at 13:58 Ajh says:
I don’t mind patches to enforce DRM….just fix my random crashing to desktop first. If that wasn’t such a huge problem, I wouldn’t care about this, but this patch makes it seem like bethesda doesn’t CARE that their game is broken they just don’t want you stealing it. I know that isn’t true. They obviously care about their product a lot. It just LOOKS this way.
(And no the LAA patch doesn’t totally fix it, but it makes it occur a lot LESS often than every 5-15 minutes.)
22/11/2011 at 14:09 Kadayi says:
Alternatively maybe they weren’t aware that there was going to be a problem based on their internal patch tests and will no doubt be addressing the problem shortly?
22/11/2011 at 14:01 Berzee says:
I have skipped over three pages of comments to say this:
This is why you always turn off auto-updating of your Steam games!
(Didn’t think about backing up the exe’s, that’s a good idea too).
22/11/2011 at 14:07 Cameron says:
Shame you skipped over all of the comments, if you hadn’t you would have seen someone on the first page saying it updated it anyway. Also other reports of the same thing on SPUF.
22/11/2011 at 22:42 Berzee says:
Ah yes, I have also been in offline mode since I got it — that probably helps too. =)
22/11/2011 at 14:05 Velvetmeds says:
ffs JUST USE THE DAMN NEW “MOD”
You had to use one before, now you just have to use a different one. Stop whining and start playing
22/11/2011 at 14:42 Deano2099 says:
It’s not just that though. If the exe has a lot of DRM now it’s likely to make things like the Script Extender and Stutter Remover that were common for Oblivion and Fallout a lot hard, if not impossible, to make work now.
22/11/2011 at 15:14 Unaco says:
@Deano…
No, it’s not. Beth and Steam have both come out and said that the Steam features that would prevent mods like the Script Extenders from working will be turned off for Skyrim, to allow for those mods. Primarily CEG, which encrypts the executable, and doesn’t decrypt it all in memory at the same time, is turned off.
Baseless speculation like your doesn’t help anyone.
22/11/2011 at 17:23 Arglebargle says:
New mod fails to work on my system, so I recopied my old backup. I wondered why I was crashing so much last night…..
22/11/2011 at 14:08 Kadayi says:
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!
/s
22/11/2011 at 15:58 Cameron says:
Lok, Vah, Koor!
22/11/2011 at 15:48 Shooop says:
And NOW why does this comment magically appear after I wrote another one?
POS comment system.
22/11/2011 at 16:20 Unaco says:
Maybe it doesn’t like you. Can’t say I’d blame it.
22/11/2011 at 18:13 Shooop says:
No one here with a even partially-functioning capacity for common sense and reasoning likes you either, but no one really complains about it too much.
Now do you have anything of any value to add or are you just going to keep on trolling kid?
22/11/2011 at 16:12 Shooop says:
So they’re ripping out one of the best things about this game with an update that forces itself to run?
Thanks for making choosing between buying this and Saints Row 3 easy Bethesda I guess.
22/11/2011 at 16:24 Unaco says:
What, exactly, are they ‘ripping out’ of the game? The best thing about it, no less… What is that? Because I played last night after the patch, and didn’t find any part of the game reduced or removed. The radiant, emergent storylines and adventures are still there. The fantastic weather effects are still there. The epic Dragon battles are still there. It still has the same open and free class/skill system, and the perk system. The multiple quest lines are still available. The vistas and landscapes and environments are still there. The terrific diversity of wild life is still there.
What is the best thing about the game that they’ve ripped out?
22/11/2011 at 18:12 Shooop says:
Why exactly are you even posting on a PC games website if you don’t like one of the best features PC games have – modding?
I have yet to see a single post from you that doesn’t read like a bored Gamespot troll trying to get a rise out of other platform users.
Now go sit on the highway and think about what you’ve said.
22/11/2011 at 18:18 Unaco says:
Where did I say I didn’t like modding? I didn’t. Where is the modding being ‘ripped out’? It isn’t. Modding will still be possible (when the Creation Kit is released), it’s still possible currently (with texture replacers, and FXAA PP mods), and they’ve even gone out of the way to ensure that certain Steam features (CEG for one) will not get in the way of certain mods and the way they work (Script Extenders needing to change executable code while in memory).
This update hasn’t prevented modding, and won’t prevent modding in the future. It’s changed, for whatever reason, the ability to change the LAA flag on the exe. That’s not preventing modding, and won’t prevent modding. Modding is still going to be the same as it was if they hadn’t pushed this update.
22/11/2011 at 18:40 Unaco says:
Bethesda VP Pete Hines has been tweeting a link to the new 4GB launcher several times today. Beth aren’t looking to reduce the Modding possibilities, or the ability to use >2GB RAM.
http://twitter.com/#!/DCDeacon/status/138991051091349504
There is no disruption to modding, if you use that, and there wasn’t any in the first place.
Modding has not been ‘ripped out’ of the game at all.
22/11/2011 at 19:15 Shooop says:
You keep coming off as someone telling everyone, “Oh you’re just overreacting! Now just be quiet and like it!” You’ve done it before for BF3′s loathsome Origin. Just stop it already. We like choices OK? Even if you couldn’t care less.
Any kind of developer-made modification that locks a file that was previously modifiable and wasn’t for multiplayer cheating can be considered lashing out at modders. In this age of developers clamping down their games so tightly they don’t even include graphics settings it is kind of a big deal.
The very best reason to play a game on PC are the options – which in really good games include changing the game code itself to suit your own tastes. If that’s not something you’re interested in then why would you play a game on PC? A couch is usually a lot more comfortable than a desk chair.
If it’s a mistake just shutting out the 64-bit OS feature they didn’t intend it’s a simple nuisance. But an update making the game suddenly inseparable from Steam that ignores user settings not to auto-update? That’s a bit ominous to say the least even without the mod-breaking. People have every right to be a little suspicious and angry at “patches” that take away instead of give.
22/11/2011 at 19:25 Unaco says:
There is no mod breaking. There are no reduced options. They’re going out of their way to ensure that certain mods, if they ever come (like the Script Extenders) will work with the game. They are not lashing out at modders. The fact that they’re releasing the Construction Kit, like they have done with all their games, shows their respect and encouragement of modding. They have no objection to allow for >2GB of RAM, hence Pete Hines tweeting about it, and it being put up on the forums.
The overriding the ‘do not auto update’ thing is a Steam issue, not an issue with the game, or Beth.
I say “you’re over reacting”, because I think you are. They are not ripping the best bit of the game out… the update changed something to ensure greater security, and whether by design or accident, it prevented the LAA flag being set in the way it had been. A work around to that has been found (the new launcher) and they are encouraging use of that.
22/11/2011 at 19:43 Shooop says:
It’s been a terrible past few years for PC tinkerers. Hearing mods being broken by patches in this particular climate of devs locking games up (both from modding and gameplay options) is like shooting a cop. People respond with all cars.
Sorry if I’ve misunderstood you in this case.
I’m still going to have to hold off on buying this, as it’s obvious Bethesda hasn’t figured out exactly what they’re doing and how to go about it. Which is disappointing because I’m sure it’s a great game to play and screw around with.
And isn’t it Bethesda’s responsibility to decide what goes on with their game’s DRM?
22/11/2011 at 21:26 vecordae says:
@shooop
Yes. It’s Bethesda’s responsibility to set the limitations of the DRM they opt to use. They have negotiated the DRM so that it won’t adversely effect the types of common game modifications their fan community is likely to use. The LAA issue wasn’t one they anticipated because they aren’t obligated to ensure the game runs with that flag enabled. They recognized the problem, however, and pointed folks to a viable alternative. They didn’t have to, but they did. Because they want people to enjoy modding their game.
And, yes, you certainly seemed to overreact. For whatever reason, Bethesda not coding their game update to work with a third party application, no matter how useful it may be, somehow meant that they wanted to “rip out” the ability for modders to alter the game. You seemed to jump to this conclusion despite the numerous statements made by the game’s developers to the contrary.
Also: You don’t own the game. You just said as much. Why on earth are you so emotionally invested in whether or not the large address awareness flag works?
23/11/2011 at 02:37 Shooop says:
I fully, willingly admit I didn’t quite understand what the hell was going on and jumped in too soon. Completely my fault guys.
And I was a bit peeved because this is one of the few games I’m looking at buying this year. I still am, but only after Bethesda can figure out exactly what the devil they’re doing.
22/11/2011 at 16:18 colinmarc says:
Seriously! I have 24gb of ram, people. What’s the point of being excessive if I can’t even be excessive?!
22/11/2011 at 16:28 Megadyptes says:
Lots of crying over spilt milk in this comments feed.
23/11/2011 at 02:39 Shooop says:
I for one panicked at the idea of mod-busting updates. Then I later realized that wasn’t the case.
My bad.
22/11/2011 at 16:28 mmalove says:
This game sounds like it will be amazing to play once development is finished and the price is down around 20 bucks. Can’t wait. Oh wait, yes I can.
22/11/2011 at 17:15 Reikon says:
Auto updates without the ability to go back to an older version is a big reason why I don’t like Steam that much. Patches sometimes break mods, saves, or other things, and I would like the ability to play an older version.
22/11/2011 at 17:32 Ultra-Humanite says:
Jesus Christ, it’s that time of the month around here again I see. Sometimes it’s difficult to imagine the people who write and post on this site without placing them hyperventilating into a brown paper-bag.
22/11/2011 at 18:31 Unaco says:
Seems that Pete Hines wants us to use more than 2GB… He tweeted the thread on the Official Forums about the new Skyrim4GB Launcher.
http://twitter.com/#!/DCDeacon/status/138991051091349504
Doesn’t seem like Beth want to restrict us PC users, I just don’t think they want to be supporting it and any problems it may cause, or as others have pointed out, may be causing with code outside their reach.
22/11/2011 at 20:10 Everyone says:
Oh fuck you very much Bethesda … you broke the “run in borderless window” mod … now I task swap out and Skyrim crashes.
22/11/2011 at 20:54 Tally says:
Window’s ‘Restore to Previous Version’ thing saved me. Didn’t even know I had it on. Now all the crashing and missing textures are re-fixed.
23/11/2011 at 02:22 Redsplinter says:
I have some things to say…
1- I build my gaming computer with 16GB of ram for a reason D4MM1T
2 – I had to wait for WSGF to hack active memory for 5760×1080 resolution! WTF? (
3 – FU Bethesda, this is GORRAM 2011!
4 – Sorry for the short post… gotta go kill some dragons…..
23/11/2011 at 04:22 Pointless Puppies says:
Hey Beth, how about release the damn mod tools already so that we don’t have to mess with your PRECIOUSSS EXE?
23/11/2011 at 19:51 Ultra-Humanite says:
It’s a wonder they release tools at all considering the number of people like you that lack patience and any semblance of common decency. Maybe you should try being grateful towards Bethesda due to the fact that they construct a game intended to be modded when so many games don’t allow any modding at all, let alone near the level that Elder Scrolls games provide, rather than a petulant ass.
23/11/2011 at 06:02 gaidin6 says:
Okay, I’ve been making noise about it for some time but I now think I’m done with video games in general. From the time I was 15 (that’s 30 years for anyone who cares), I’ve been spending money on video games.
It seems that no matter what *I* do as a legitimate gamer, I will have to suffer for what other people do. Well I won’t do it any more.
I’m moving on. I’ve fought the good fight for too many years. To you new folks… good luck but the industry has ground me down to the point that I will go and find another hobby that won’t start by assuming I’m a pirate.
The whole “license” concept for software is crap. There is no other industry where I am expected to give an organization money to “license” the product where I don’t have full control of the item I give my money for. For example, if I buy a CD or DVD, I can play it whenever I want, wherever (in private) I want. There is an implied contract that says (1) don’t make money directly from it. (2) don’t resell it (3) don’t play/show it publicly. After that, I’m free to do with it as I see fit.
The new game rules don’t say that at all. For example, if I take Civ 5 or Skyrim to my cottage, where I do NOT have Internet access, I will eventually not be able to play those games. Is that fair? I paid full price for both games. So, WTF?
Another example, I bought Dawn of War 2. I bought in a GameStop and took to the original disc to the cottage, while trying to install it, I found I couldn’t instal OR play it because I needed an Internet connection to “register” it. Is that fair? Fair or not, I have no choice but to accept it or not to play.
From now on, I’m not playing. My money can go elsewhere. Congrats games industry. You’ve finally managed to alienate the demographic you have been courting all this time. For the record, that’s the geeky 40-somethings who have liquid cash, the time to play and the stroke to tell their friends to play.
Let me know how that’s working out for you in the next years to come.
Actually, don’t bother because as I said, I’m done.
25/11/2011 at 01:56 FatPanduh says:
It seems to me that game companies should stop wasting their budget, and sometimes precious time, on useless DRM technologies. They should just remove it all together. Cracking groups always figure out a way to bypass DRM on popular titles anyways. These non-wasted funds could be used towards game development and polish. It is a lost cause to try and stop pirating when really anyone who plans on pirating a game knows the cracking groups will have it ready for them to download, while people who don’t and will not be pirating would still buy it if they wanted to play it anyways. Most pirated games cannot be played online either, because normally a CD-key/serial check is in place, so pirates usually end up buying it to play it online anyways. I know Skyrim is not a multiplayer game, but companies need to stop wasting effort on “no point” DRM technologies that end up failing in the long run. But hey, I guess it would be natural for game companies to want to pay for making it a little more challenging for the cracking scene, so they can get better at what they do.
27/11/2011 at 06:49 AstroNerdBoy says:
The thing you have to remember about DRM is that it is not to stop piracy, though that is the official excuse. In fact, it is a method to control how you use a product. In the case of Skyrim, the Steam DRM allows Bethesda, through Steam, to collect any amount of information about you, such as what type of machine you are on, how long you play, and whatever other information Steam collects. From there, if they wanted, Steam could do a WHOLE LOT MORE, and the end user wouldn’t even be aware of it. Nice target for hackers, eh?
Further to that, it allows Steam to throw ads at the end user because most people have a thing for Steam and so they want those people to spend their money.
Now that the game is ramrodded into Steam, should Steam go bankrupt, guess who can’t play Skyrim any longer? Or, if Bethesda decides people need to buy an upgrade in order to keep playing, guess what you’ve got to do now if you are a legal player? Maybe Bethesda wants you to play Elder Scrolls VI and stop playing V. Guess what? They can do that now whereas if you still have a store bought copy of Oblivion or Morrowind, you can still play them.
This is what DRM was created for — total control. For years, Hollywood and PC game makers have dreamed of fleecing their customer base and thus have a constant revenue stream. Big Entertainment has been thwarted for years, starting with their loss against Sony back in the early VCR days (and how ironic is it that Sony has now switched sides?). They’ve gotten smart though and though they can easily get Progressive politicians to go along with them (since that’s what they support), they also have managed to get Conservative politicians to go along with them as well. Thus, we get hideous copyright laws that get worse and worse because no one is looking out for the end user.
Ever wonder about DVD and Blu-ray region encoding? Control. Ever wonder why even though making a backup is legal, it is illegal to defeat the DVD/BD encryption process in order to make said backup? Control. And with DRM, it is still about control. They get to decide what the end user should and should not get and that’s that.
Its all evil, but sadly, our society has become too accustomed to allowing a giant government pass laws placing more and more controls on our lives. Freedom is just a fleeting word. :-(
26/11/2011 at 20:55 Nightsilver says:
i registered just so i could comment on this story. I’m a pirate. There’s no sugar coating it or defending it these days, you either are or you aren’t. Everyone has thier own opinion on pirates, and everyone is more or less on thier own on how they feel about what they do is wrong or right. But this is about skyrim.
I dont buy games often, for this very reason. I play PC games because they are usually unique, they allow you to do more, they have better patches, support and allow mods that you cant do/find on consoles. (i say all this in general terms, plenty of exceptions to this rule)
I have/had 100′s of PC games over the years, never once have i had to install steam, or any other service in the background, no extra hoops i had to run to get a game to work, and all these “online” only games dont even affect me. There is always cracks or ways to get around them.
Starcraft II for example. I BOUGHT the game, full installed it, even after reading it say needed internet, i installed it, went to play it, and couldn’t play single player without at least connecting 1 time online…so yes folks i can see where some say they got burned and that’s why they pirate, when people aucutally choose to buy the game, and yet cant even play it, but downloading a simple crack/loader, and play the game fully offline, without thier gimmic service, is the way to go these days (at least for me)
I can give tons of other examples of online only or steam only games, that had lots of issues, where i simply downloaded the game, cracked it, played it, unisntalled it, and moved on, skyrim is just the current game to do this for me, i love the game, it runs great, never had to install steam, patches work fine, modding works fine, why would i go and pay 50$ to be forced for one thing to connect online, and then force patches that i dont want? AND have to run the steam client, and all that. I prefer just to play the damn game.
The fact that you cant even INSTALL the game without steam/internet connection, that is just silly in my opinion, the lengths games go to protect themselves from piracy, but at the same time it punishes those who buy the game.
I dont have internet at home, i work part time, i scrape enough to pay my rent and bills, how easy it is to download anything these days, and games often aren’t worth the money invested, even the AAA titles, that you may play a month, and incidents like DRM and Steam trying to force you to comply to play their game…just isn’t cool
If the release groups worked for the “good guys” those of us who pirate stuff would have a challenge, since release groups are always 1 step ahead of game developers, if the tables were ever turned….
26/11/2011 at 21:11 alundra says:
You guys might want to try this tweak:
Experimental Memory Tweak for system memory
In SkyrimPrefs (mydocuments/mygames/Skyrim)
[Papyrus]
iMinMemoryPageSize=100000
iMaxMemoryPageSize=5000000
iMaxAllocatedMemoryBytes=1800000000 – I set mine to 3800000000 (3.8GB)
to try and bring stability to the game itself and the ugrid setting.
On other news, AMD users can try catalyst 11.11a or the 11.11b released today.
To comment on the issue at hand, Gabe’s words come to mind, what version is giving the best service to the legit user?? the legit or the pirated one? Some people will never learn.