By John Walker on February 23rd, 2012 at 4:41 pm.

The argument was made by Jennifer Hepler six years ago. Back then the BioWare writer argued that if dialogue can be skipped in games, then why not combat?
Ignoring the hideous treatment Hepler has received this week, and we will be*, the argument remains a truly excellent one, and one I want to explore.
I enjoy combat in games. I play lots of games just for the combat, and if there’s a story attached then that’s a bonus. Clearly, being a right-thinking individual, I can’t stand boss fights, but otherwise rolling in the ruckus is lots of fun, and a huge reason to be playing games.
I’m also someone who adores narrative in games. That’s my first love in this pursuit and always has been. Growing up on text adventures, when the closest you got to combat was reading that it had happened, being told a tale is a massive motivation for my time spent playing games. Not an exclusive one by a long stretch – my fondness for action-RPGs, third-person combat, and Burnout Paradise ensures that I’m just as likely as any to shout “BLAH BLAH BLAH!” at talking characters as I search for which key skips their blather. Just let me hit stuff! Look at me – I’m varied.
If I’m not reviewing something, I’ll exercise that ability to skip past dreary, pointless dialogue. If it’s proved to add nothing to the game, or actively made me want to not like it, then it makes far more sense to Esc Esc Esc my way through and get to the next bit I enjoy playing.
So why can’t the same apply to combat?
What’s interesting is the primary response seems to be extraordinarily defensive. “But that’s not the point of the game!” they cry. “You may as well watch a film if all you want is a story!” And it’s not even the poorness of those arguments that’s the issue here. What’s so strange is that people are arguing at all. Because to say, “I would like it if combat could be skipped” is not the same as saying, “You HAVE TO skip all the combat in a game or we’ll kill your parents.” But the only rationale I can find for why people are so incredibly angry or upset by the possibility of Escape’s powers working elsewhere is because they’re perceiving it as an infringement of their own potential enjoyment of a game.
Which it is not.
The idea that someone would play the utterly brilliant Dragon Age and skip the conversations feels monstrous to me. Miss out on all the amazing jokes with Alistair? Skip over the scathing sarcasm of Morrigan? Fail to outrageously flirt with Zevran? Let alone not reading the Codex, and learning of the thousands of years of history that precede the events in which you’re taking part? But… but… BUT! That would ruin the game!

But then, just possibly, there might be one or two people who didn’t enjoy Dragon Age’s dialogue. No, really, there may. And for them, their time in Thedas is much better spent with the pause-based RPG combat, intricately controlling their band of characters with carefully balanced tactics, each member refined to the precise AI responses they desire, while improvising techniques amidst the frantic Hard difficulty battles. They couldn’t give a flying dragon plop if your influence on Alistair is causing him to have a crisis of faith, nor does their mind get filled with the consequences of Qunari invasion of Kirkwall. They don’t let it concern them, and they click straight through it.
So why can’t the person who just cares whether Morrigan will get one over on her mother, or if a dwarf can make it as a mage, have the same ability to hop past the parts that don’t interest them as much?
Yes, of course, if we were talking about Dragon Age specifically, it’s rife with reasons why missing combat would be problematic. But we’re not. We’re talking about games that haven’t been developed yet. Games that could through out approximated amounts of XP for skipped battles, or whatever the particular shortfall might be, for the player who opts to jump forward to the next conversation-based quest. And we’ve not even considered the practical motivations – replaying a game to see what other narrative options were there would be much easier, and certainly more convenient, if you could just focus on the dialogue and make different choices.
To argue that removing the requirement to play all the combat in a game is to render the experience to being equivalent to that of a film is to completely miss the nuance of gaming. Beyond the sheer obviousness that try as you might, it’s awfully difficult to have an influence on a film’s ending, the simple act of clicking a mouse changes the way you experience the media. What about Visual Novels then? Aren’t they narratives you read and occasionally influence? Yes, yes they are, which is why I fully argue that they’re games. But let’s not get sidetracked there – that’s not the concern here. The point is, if my skipping a shitty boss fight, or hopping over a particularly frustrating combat sequence, to you means I’m making a game the same as a VN, um, so what?
That’s what’s so very mystifying about the argument. We don’t need to be having an argument! Because no one anywhere is suggesting that combat should be removed from games, and certainly not that anyone should be under any obligation to skip combat, why is there even a reaction at all? It’s like someone wanting to ban people from visiting Burger King because they pick the tomato out of their Whopper. They’re not forcing you to miss out on your tomatoey goodness – they’re just eating the burger differently than you do. Your burger stays just the same.
Deciding how other people are allowed to play games, or believing that other people playing differently is an affront to you, is mystifying. Such a solipsistic view of the gaming world is utterly without merit or value to you or anyone else. If people want to skip combat, you should get on with not caring at all.

Everyone pays for the game, and while we have no stinking rights of ownership, we do still at least cling to the right to play it how we choose. If I want to play Skyrim with a no-clip cheat on and walk through every wall in the game, I can. It would be a strange thing to do, certainly, but it wouldn’t be a problem for you. And if I want to skip all the combat in Torchlight and just read the quest descriptions, you’d rightly think me insane, but it wouldn’t make your enjoyment of the game change in any way.
I think skippable combat is a fantastic idea. I doubt I’d use it very often. I can imagine Deus Ex: Human Revolution being a lot more fun if I could exercise the right to skip its awful boss fights, and I certainly might consider it if I’m playing an action game with a frustrating difficulty spike I’d like to see the other side of. In fact, I find it utterly bizarre that we’re not allowed to jump to any chapter of a game when we first install it. We’re allowed to with films, and no one can stop you turning to the last chapter of a book. Goodness knows why you’d want to, but there’s no reason you shouldn’t.
Getting to the end of a game doesn’t need to be a privilege, earned through hard labour and toil. It’s something anyone can be allowed to do, however they wish. Sure, this “achievement” culture has broken some people’s understanding, and heck, take them away from me if I skip something – I’ll somehow cope. But I don’t see why anyone should be restricted from seeing any part of a game they’ve bought for any reason. And if skipping combat is a way to do that, then skip away.
PS. Massive thanks to @caterwail for linking me to this:
*We am not interested at all in discussion of the despicable campaign of hate directed toward Hepler in the last few days, and any comments about her will be deleted, and we’ll ban anyone we choose. It is NOT being tolerated. If we need to, we’ll just switch off the comments.




23/02/2012 at 16:44 AMonkey says:
Video games rarely have the writing to sustain themselves so if you can’t manage the gameplay, I don’t know why you would bother watching them (since you aren’t playing them).
23/02/2012 at 16:50 Apples says:
You’re mixing up “gameplay” with combat, or action. Gameplay can be part of the writing and reliant on the writing, e.g. ‘conversation battles’ or just plain character interaction. And saying “well, games have crap writing so why bother” is absolutely nonsense since it’s not something inherent to the medium.
23/02/2012 at 17:14 Urthman says:
You might as well say, “Video games suck completely so I don’t know why anyone would bother playing them at all.”
Sure, some people have that opinion, but it’s pretty irrelevant to this topic.
23/02/2012 at 17:22 Blackcompany says:
Combat in Fallout: New Vegas was terrible. I mean truly awful. Even using modded combat settings and styles it was pretty rough.
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I played the game for 280hrs.
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I did it for the writing. The characters. The decisions that mattered. I played it so I could find out about that story Chief Hanlon tells about his early days – the one I missed out on the first time because of something that happened to him during a quest. I really wanted to find out about him, and I am glad I did.
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I played FONV for an an entire Saturday afternoon once. I sat down in the mood for an action game. I wanted to blast shit. Then I stumbled onto a quest in Freeside to help someone. Totally speech based. I completed it and found more such. Before I knew it, I’d spent 5 hours gaming and never fired a weapon, drawn a knife or thrown a single explosive. Not. Even. Once.
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Perhaps if we were able to skip combat now and then. Developers would gather data on the other aspects of game play we do enjoy. Perhaps they would focus more on narrative and choice and consequence.
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Though I am still modding Skyrim and watching the modding scene for a potential return to it one day soon, I am mostly playing Kingdoms of Amalur right now. It has choices I need to make, with consequences, and some intriguing bits of story now and then. Little cartoony, sure, but at least it has an unpredictable narrative and some real consequences. Nice change of pace, that.
23/02/2012 at 17:28 Shuck says:
@AMonkey: Questioning the idea that “gameplay” equals “combat” is one of the benefits of the suggestion under discussion here. It may be true that games have traditionally tended to pad out their gameplay with (tedious, repetitive, often frustrating) combat, but there’s no reason for it to be so.
I’ve always thought that the game industry could really benefit from hiring people who don’t like games (normally “being passionate” about games is a requirement), and this shows why – people who are indoctrinated into the traditional way of doing things are less likely to question the basic assumptions that are keeping out potential players.
23/02/2012 at 17:32 wastelanderone says:
Inquiring minds would like to know what you think of adventure games as you appear to believe that combat = gameplay.
23/02/2012 at 17:47 Craig Stern says:
There is a growing trend in RPGs of including a “Story Mode,” where battles are either trivially fast and easy or are simply skipped altogether. It’s not the same as being able to skip battles on a case-by-case basis, but I think it addresses similar player desires.
23/02/2012 at 19:16 povu says:
I wouldn’t mind if Planescape: Torment came with a skip combat option. The dialogue in that game is basically what the game is about, the combat is crap.
23/02/2012 at 20:30 fooga44 says:
@apple
“You’re mixing up “gameplay” with combat, or action.”
No, interactivity = gameplay, story is not interactive by definition since you just watch and wait for npc’s to execute their highly scripted sequences. The real issue is that many games have BAD GAMEPLAY (interactivity, combat, action) and tried to cover this up with story and narrative.
Story is NOT gameplay and people who say it is are morons. Games are about your character interacting with the world and in most games it’s highly combat or skill based. i.e. driving a car, being a soldier (call of duty), being Kratos (god of war), being War (darksiders).
Almost all the best games are action games for a reason – they put interactivity front and center. The real issue is many game developers suck at making the participation section of games fun. If you have to skip combat that means there is _something wrong_ with the game.
Imagine a driving game where you “skipped driving”. You story folks are completely bonkers and have been the ones who’ve pushed us into cinematic games where gameplay has stopped advancing to cater to people who really don’t like videogames. Like that chick from bioware.
23/02/2012 at 21:03 jrodman says:
@Fooga; your post is charging a straw man not here. In Apples post, she or he referred to conversation battles and character interaction. Those are both means of interaction and means of conveying story. The story itself is not interaction, but can be created via interaction.
23/02/2012 at 21:40 Hereticus says:
I’m actually reminded of System Shock being ahead of it’s time again. While not skippable it had individual settings for difficulty for Combat (0 being where enemies wouldn’t attack!), Puzzles, Plot and Cyber. It gave you an index at the end based on your settings but I definitely liked the idea of being able to customise the difficulty at a bit more of a granular level.
23/02/2012 at 23:39 MasterDex says:
@jrodman: What the hell is a conversation battle? What game has conversation battles? For a conversation to be some kind of battle, there’d have to be a way to lose but if you consider multiple choice dialogue trees to be conversation battles then you may as well start calling coin-flips battles too. They’re not battles, by any stretch of the imagination. Fooga is dead right. The people clamouring for skippable combat are asking for movies, not games. If you don’t like PLAYING then just don’t play games. Simples.
24/02/2012 at 00:23 Hidden_7 says:
Human Revolution had conversation battles. You had an interactive conversation that it was possible to mess up and lose, with the consequences that entails.
Fallout had conversation battles. There were conversations where if you did them poorly you would lose and suffer consequences. They were tied to your speech skill, but still required player decisions, much like the combat in that game.
Dragon Age had conversation battles, conversations that could go poorly for you if you choose incorrectly, and thus could lose and face the consequences of that loss.
All sorts of games have conversation battles, any game with multiple choice dialogue where there are better and worse outcomes has conversation battles that are directly analgous to combat gameplay. You make decisions with a goal in mind, and suffer the consequences of those decisions.
Hell, if you’re looking at “lose” as meaning “player death” I’m sure there are some classic adventure games that would fit your bill. Probably some Sierra joints.
24/02/2012 at 00:26 aerozol says:
@MasterDex did you even READ the article? In any case, a GAME is generally defined as performing actions in a defined ‘game space’ with rules (or even just ‘a’ rule). That’s it. Combat = games is just effin stupid. And wrong.
24/02/2012 at 02:39 MasterDex says:
@Hidden_7: How are any of those examples battles? They’re multiple choice dialogue trees with varying outcomes. You can’t call them conversation battles when there’s no battling being done. You’re choosing a dialogue and seeing the outcome, good or bad. Even if the outcome of your choice is negative, it still isn’t in any way, shape or form a battle. Unless of course you also consider, as I said previously, coin-flips to be battles. It’s the same idea. You have two options (I know multiple choice dialogue in games often has more but same concept -options), head or tails. If you choose tails and it comes up heads, you haven’t just fought a battle. You made a choice, that’s it. It’s not a battle. At all.
@aerozol: Perhaps you should read my comment before replying. I never said that combat=gameplay. However, the fact of the matter is that in many, many games, the combat is the game, or a major portion of that. Take that away or change your design to allow it to be skipped and you either damage the overall quality of the game or you lose the actual game part of the game. But of course, you’re welcome to dismiss me and continue clamouring for the ability to skip things like combat in games where combat plays a central role…..Or you could, you know, play games that don’t focus on combat and leave the rest of us to enjoy playing.
24/02/2012 at 02:44 misavcxzb says:
Developers do not need to build “skip” buttons into their own games to evaluate if it’s fun or not… that’s why games have cheat codes and command line input. http://oua.be/die
24/02/2012 at 03:07 aerozol says:
@MasterDex, “Fooga is dead right. The people clamouring for skippable combat are asking for movies, not games.” implies that skipping combat automatically stops something from being a game. That is WRONG. Although it seems unlikely that you’ll be able to wrap your head around it, the definition of a game in no way or form implies combat. I could repeat the definition, but what’s the point? You didn’t read it the first time…
“clamouring for the ability to skip things like combat in games where combat plays a central role” that’s a joke right? Because my post contained none of that. However the article does contain this: what do you care? Do you feel so threatened by the thought of other people playing the same game in a different way that you feel you have to defend yourself from it? And have to start spouting alien inferences like “where combat plays a central role”, when the article in no way is recommending that combat should be skippable in a game like CoD? The examples given were perfectly reasonable.
24/02/2012 at 03:27 MasterDex says:
@aerozol: Wrong. It implies that those looking to skip combat are the same ones who’d rather skip the gameplay altogether just so they can have the story. As I said, combat in many games is the central piece of gameplay. In many games, it’s the only piece of gameplay.
And please, leave the ad hominems and hyperbole out of this. I understand the argument. And I’m in no way insulted by those who make it or by the argument itself. However, the argument has a flaw and that is that for skippable combat or similar, developers would have to change how they design their games to cater to people that aren’t really gamers and that’s going to have a negative effect on game design.
I have no problem with games catering to people who wouldn’t mind an easy ride on a rollercoaster rather than a trip through a gauntlet but there are other ways and much better ways to do it than to implement things like skippable combat.
Let me ask you this. Would you like skippable combat in God of War? Final Fantasy? Bioshock?
24/02/2012 at 04:03 aerozol says:
@MasterDex Your first statement again misunderstands the meaning of ‘gameplay’ and ‘game’. There are many more games that don’t involve combat, than those that do. This ranges from tic-tac-toe, scrabble, school yard games, all the way through to casual and AA video games. Again, skipping combat =/= skipping gameplay. In the sense of ‘combat’ being able to take place in more than just a aggressive physical sense (and digital representation thereof), then yes, most games do involve it, whether between players, or just between the players and the rules of play. But in your earlier definition of a coin toss not being a battle I see you’ve assigned it a very specific meaning, which most (by far) games don’t fit.
My hyperbole is mild compared to you taking a comment where I simply correct a (key) mistake you make in the classification of a ‘game’, and expanding it to creatively assign me an agenda. I like combat, and don’t like story-heavy focus in games, by the way.
Final Fantasy could use skippable combat, definitely. Leveling up, traveling, playing mini-games and equipping characters was way more fun than the slow grind of watching summons do their thing or watching attack animations take place (I only played up to 8, so those are the ones I’m talking about). That would be skipping elements of gameplay yes, but in no way or form would it stop FF VII from being a game, and turn it into a movie.
I’ve already covered that nobody is saying a FPS (or completely combat-based game like GoW) should have skippable combat. And the article doesn’t either. That’s your inference.
Just stating that it would hurt game design is quite an assumption. It obviously wouldn’t hurt it for people that want to skip combat, would it? Of course if you just mean whoever your very personal definition of “real gamers” covers, which I can only assume means people who only play games where fighting (in a specific sense) plays the central role, you could be right.
24/02/2012 at 04:17 MasterDex says:
@aerozol: I’m too tired for this. You’re confusing and misunderstanding my comments and I’m not going to keep this going.
The idea of skippable combat could and does work for some games but it wouldn’t work or would negatively affect a lot of other games. We can say that this is due to the bad habit of developers relying on combat as the central interactive device in games or whatever but regardless, as many games stand now, skippable combat would only make sense for a few games.
The greatest fear I think I and others have is that all these cries for change this and let me skip that and so on will make the bigwigs in the industry perk up their ears and say “Well, 60% of our audience hates combat/puzzles/platforming, so rather than make the effort to change our design plan to fit skippable “c/p/p”, let’s just make an interactive movie.” While that premise is somewhat absurd, it’s not out of the realm of possibility, certainly not in a generation where we’ve seen many games that treat the game portion (and ALL that entails) as second fiddle to the plot. There are also a bunch of other possible downsides to skippable gameplay (And by gameplay I mean combat, puzzles, platforming, etc, etc) but I think other RPS commentors have covered a good amount of them. Yes, right now it’s let’s make combat skippable but then it’ll be let’s make platforming skippable, etc
I guess my ultimate point (if you’ll give me that little bit of respect to hear me out) is that we have to be very careful what we wish for because what we wish for and what we get could well be two very different things.
24/02/2012 at 04:36 jrodman says:
@MasterDex: When you jump from “I don’t know what apples means by conversation battles” to “you are asking for movies”, you’re really not thinking anything through.
If you want to know what Apples meant, ask Apples. If you want to assert that ability to skip content == movie, then please don’t, because it’s obviously false and useless.
24/02/2012 at 04:38 aerozol says:
@MasterDex I agree with you there, it’s not right for every case (probably not right for most games where combat plays an important role). But in the examples given in the article (eg games where both combat and story play a role, and where you often can skip story) I think it could definitely be beneficial.
But the statements you made in your first post (skippable combat = movie), and have really stuck with in essence, remain what I take issue with. I don’t blame you for wanting to move away from this very circular argument, but if you ever want to understand where I’m coming from (I studied interactivity and game design) I would recommend: The Game design reader : a rules of play anthology, edited by Katie Salen and Eric Zimerman
24/02/2012 at 05:00 MasterDex says:
@aerozol: I never asserted that skippable combat=movie but rather that skippable gameplay (which would include combat) = movie. I guess I didn’t word it very well though. I just feel that allowing players to skip over any gameplay, be it puzzles, combat or whatever defeats the purpose of playing a game. I know the argument here is why shouldn’t combat, in particular, be skippable but that’s just now. Do we really want to reach a point where we appease everyone with skippable everything? Call me paranoid but I think the question of whether combat should be skippable has us teetering on the brink of a rabbit hole with no way out. Thanks for the reading suggestion, btw.
@Jrodman: It wasn’t a jump. They were two unrelated comments, one directed towards yourself and the other at Fooga’s comment and the thread as a whole. I guess I should have formatted better.
In relation to the second half of your comment, I don’t think the ability to skip content=movie but rather that skipping the interactive portions of a game = movie. Think Uncharted 3 with the option to skip the platforming and shooting. It becomes a movie, with some QTEs thrown in if someone decides to skip all of that and then what was the point in paying premium bucks for it?
24/02/2012 at 06:10 kavika says:
@MasterDex
The ability to skip everything is the whole point. Call it combat, call it whatever.
> Do we really want to reach a point where we appease everyone with skippable everything? Call me paranoid but I think the question of whether combat should be skippable has us teetering on the brink of a rabbit hole with no way out.
You’re paranoid. Stop fear mongering. There is no impact to you at all when someone else can <do action you don’t like>. Whether it be gay marriage, or skipping content in some piece of entertainment. The art-as-a-whole will not be harmed, and the End Times won’t be upon us any sooner.
Cutscene achievements are a troll against this way of thinking.
24/02/2012 at 08:52 CaptainMcSmash says:
@MasterDex
I was thinking it the entire time while reading your comments but you just outright said it. “skipping the interactive portions of a game = movie”. What an absurd notion, simply adding the option to skip a portion of gameplay immediately turns it into a movie, this is literally what you said.
Having the option to skip gameplay would not detract from a game in any way. It would simply be an option there, just as much as turning the sound up or down, you don’t have to use it at all unless your unhappy with how things are.
You say if gameplay is skippable, game designers will just focus on making an interactive movie. You seem to think that there is only a negative outcome to this, I only can imagine a positive outcome. If gameplay becomes skippable, the only time it would be used would be for good reason because otherwise, it would hurt no one but the person playing the game. Personally, I’d only use it to take the road not taken, to skip bad boss battles or endless corridors of enemies, ultimately, I’d use it to skip bad gameplay, if gamers were to find themselves using this option often, they’d realize it was a bad game and say so. This would force developers to not only improve the gameplay but the story elements as well.
It may only just be my opinion but I can only see skippable gameplay as having a positive outcome.
24/02/2012 at 10:46 ffordesoon says:
@MasterDex:
” However, the argument has a flaw and that is that for skippable combat or similar, developers would have to change how they design their games”
They have to change how they design their games anyway to keep up with shifts in thinking, technology, taste, pricing, etc. I don’t see how they can’t cope with this if they can cope with all of that.
24/02/2012 at 13:00 mckertis says:
“There is no impact to you at all when someone else can . Whether it be gay marriage, or skipping content in some piece of entertainment.”
Yes, it does. Gay marriage affects you. Reduced standards of quality in game developing affects you. Not immediately, but they do. Do we really need to argue what is absolutely obvious ?
24/02/2012 at 23:20 Lowbrow says:
I doubt this will even be read at this point, but:
1. Conversation battles- literal example would be the insult fencing in Monkey Island. If you’re already stretching the definition of “battle” to include selecting auto-attack in some games, I don’t see how a conversation wouldn’t fit the mold. There’s an applicable quote about playing fields somewhere…
2.I have had the option to flip to the end of a book for all my life. How rotten would it be to have to read all of East of Eden to get to my favorite passages. Do people that skip to the end screw themselves? Yes, but it doesn’t affect my life. If you can want to keep your nerd-friends pure, you can insist on achievements for not skimming portions of the game. You can then socially ostracize anyone who doesn’t enjoy the product on the same terms you do. This reminds me of my dad’s insistence that we read a chapter of the bible every day at dinner, and spent what seems like weeks reading through the Begats. Let us “skim” through things we don’t like. Games, more so even then books, are supposed to be fun.
3. I can’t believe that people have played a Final Fantasy game and not wanted to skip combat. My god, an autoresolve option would make that game a million times better. I can skip battles in TOTAL WAR if I can’t be bothered to kill 2 units of peasants, but I have to go through that annoying battle process in every RPG (where battles are rarely individually challenging)?
Personally, I see this as a challenge to game developers to make more interesting stories and characters who will hold up for those playing in “story” mode. That would benefit those whose skipped and those who didn’t.
06/03/2012 at 18:28 skittles says:
A bit late to the party, but I will say this. If someone just wants to skip all gameplay, who are you to gainsay their preference. A strongly held attitude seems that of, if you don’t want to play, **** off and go see a movie. However that is just juvenile whining to put it plainly. If someone is interested in a story of a game, then they are perfectly entitled to seeing it just as you are, if the developer doesn’t want to let them then that is fine. But if you are not a developer and are just whining here because you feel entitled to a medium that is not yours, please just go away.
23/02/2012 at 16:45 Captain Hijinx says:
That’s a nicely formulated piece John, and i find myself agreeing completely. Though my first knee jerk reaction upon seeing the headline was to disagree.
23/02/2012 at 17:06 Jumwa says:
Likewise.
Though judging by the reaction I get when I just mention that I wish more games had a realistic casual difficulty setting, or that I’m not interested in “hard” games (usually something about how “insert-slur-here” like me are ruining the industry, “dumbing” it down, and how I am totally “lazy”), I doubt it’ll be a popular sentiment among gaming communities.
15/11/2012 at 06:44 Mr Gimp says:
Skippable combat would also help disabled gamers like me enjoy more of the games we buy. Sometimes the control schemes are so complicated that even with rebind-able keys that somethings are just impossible.
And it would benefit the game makers too, instead of being upset that i bought say Assassins creed 1 and couldn’t use the controls well enough to play the game and therefor not buying any of the AC sequels or DLC they would get my money because I could actually enjoy what I spent cash on. The way things are now at best i’d watch a “let’s play” and they get zero return from that!
23/02/2012 at 17:19 Matt-R says:
Aye, can’t help but agree with this piece, I’d never use it myself at all, I verge more on the lets set everything to hardest and grind my face off whilst learning to master it instead sort of thing, but if someone would want to play this way then there’s no reason that they shouldn’t be able to given that combat (especially in RPGs) rarely if ever actually adds to the game in anything other than arbitrary hurdles, I can think of Redcliff in DA:O as a singular example from the DA series wherein combat actually has any tangible effect or meaning (oh wait the Arishok in 2 aswell).
But meh, a lot of folks seem to be treating combat/action as the sacred cow of gameplay which disappoints me a lot.
23/02/2012 at 17:30 Phantoon says:
I don’t know if I agree. I skipped the article.
23/02/2012 at 17:54 grundus says:
I think this is one of those things that, if put forward properly, is impossible to disagree with. One excellent example of gaming I wish I could skip more than any other is near the end of Metal Gear Solid 2. I spent hours and hours on that game collecting all the dog tags on every difficulty, starting at the bottom and working my way up, but I only had one save. I started Hard, did very well indeed, and then… (I knew it was coming, of course)… I get strangled by my ‘Dad’ and have to press triangle faster than a Hummingbird could if it grasped the urgency of the situation.
Can’t skip it, can’t get past it, so that’s it, then. Hours (admittedly small amounts of hours compared to, say, a Fallout 3 playthrough, but still enough to finish the game a large number of times over) and hours of sneaking around and dealing with some fairly tough bosses and for what? Oh, I can’t press a button fast enough, now I’ve died, I can’t start a new game with the stuff I’d already unlocked and I can’t finish this one, I have no other saves… Fuck it. I stopped playing MGS2 after that, and for that reason it’s my least favourite game of the lot. I so could’ve had Solidus in that final fight, too, probably.
23/02/2012 at 19:04 noom says:
The issue for me with the option to skip combat in games would I think be similar to the issue I’d have with playing roguelikes without permadeath. I feel it might rob me of my incentive to play well or try and improve. You can perhaps say that’s just a problem with me and my weak will-power, and you’d probably be right, but I think it remains a valid issue.
With that said, I do think this is a perfectly decent option to have in a game. The solution for me would be to have the ability to skip combat parts of a game settable as an option at the start, without the option to turn it on for the duration of that particular playthrough. Kinda like the inverse of traditional Ironman modes I guess.
23/02/2012 at 19:27 Luringen says:
Maybe enabling skipping combat only on easy difficulty?
23/02/2012 at 20:40 Zerrick says:
@Phantoon
What are you doing here then? You know you can’t post unless you have read the article.
23/02/2012 at 21:10 jrodman says:
@noom; I think there a number of real issues with the idea of making the core components of a game skippable, which vary a lot on the type of game, and the goals of the designer, and so on. I agree with your comparison of skippable bosses to defeatable permadeath as changint the framing of the game.
I also think the way people will approach challenges which have a “turn me off?” button will be different than those that do not. It will have advantages (this thread is full of people talking about that) and disadvantages.
I view it as a new and different set of challenges to the game designer. I personally would like to try out games built this way. Lord knows I skipped my way through the starcraft 2 single player, and I god moded my way through the majority of the original Unreal. In both cases the challenge aspects had ceased to appeal but other things retained my interest.
—–
Separately, I think the fact that we’re focused on saying so loudly that “NOTHING IS TAKEN AWAY!” is because gaming discourse is at such an incredibly base level. What I mean is the dialogue is stuck in some rut surrounding thought processes like skipping any content means skipping all content, or skipping any content means no content will be good, or optional skipping means mandatory skipping. With such obvious fallacies being the norm, its very tempting to charge in with “NO SHUT UP SHUT UP NOTHING IS TAKEN AWAY YOU ARE ALL STUPID!” I can really get behind this sentiment, but it does tend to drown out what *is* taken away.
24/02/2012 at 01:50 MikoSquiz says:
My immediate kneejerk reaction was to agree, but as I read the article I found myself firmly in opposition.
The thing to remember is that given the opportunity, players will almost always ruin the game for themselves. The reason Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup doesn’t allow item selling at all is that because if it did, a significant proportion of players would haul around every last stone and stick they find, spend half their time juggling inventory, then stop playing because it wasn’t fun.
Of course, it’s possible for there to be a game where combat is unnecessary. In this case, combat should be left out in the first place.
24/02/2012 at 03:12 2late2die says:
Ditto. I didn’t necessarily disagreed outright but I thought, why not instead implement combat that’s more adjustable to player’s skill. So if you fail an encounter it drops the difficulty and if you fail again it drops it again until you can finish it. But as I read I found myself pretty much agreeing with where you’re coming from – why the heck shouldn’t we be able to skip the combat, it only affects the people that do it and if that’s how they better enjoy the game the more power to them. And I also agree with skipping to chapters. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t have been able to fire up DX:HR and go to the last section right away. Yes I would’ve skipped a lot of awesome story and gameplay but that’s my problem, ain’t it?
Anyway, the short of it is, I agree 100%. Moving on.
24/02/2012 at 08:30 Gozuu says:
Do we have another guy running gaming, right here? Or let me rephrase “is the cancer of gaming”.
The idea of skippable combat will lead to people continuously as today crave for more content without any hassle. It will be a backfire for the developers as people will crave a sequel after no-clipping their way through content.
There are all sorts of doomsday saying that I would agree to and seeing someone from a PC magazine write this, just further demonstrates the lack of professionalism in todays “news” and journalism, if I can even call this piece that exactly.
I thougth DLC & Achievements were something horrible – Now we have skippable gameplay as well, just to further exploit the possibility of putting out rushed content to cover for the short length of games as they were cheated through?
I really don’t get it, I really don’t. Rockpapershotgun makes me lose faith in almost every one of their “this is my point of view”-articles which either dumbs something down, shortens something or give further explanation why DLC ain’t such a bad thing after all.
Horrible article, really. You’re gonna be ashamed when you wake up tomorrow and read this shit.
23/02/2012 at 16:46 Kdansky says:
If the combat wasn’t mostly filler in many games, I wouldn’t need a skip function. I actually skipped Dragon Age 1 completely, because it’s filled with 60 hours of boring combat between the good bits.
Why can’t we try to make more games without combat? I do (see signature blog), but it’s bloody hard and nobody cares about it except me, it seems. Is murder and violence really the only thing that makes games work?
23/02/2012 at 16:50 Unaco says:
There are plenty of games without combat, and they sell more than 1 copy each… so I don’t think it’s just you that cares about this. Unless you really, really, really care and are singlehandedly supporting Zynga, or the Sports game genre.
23/02/2012 at 16:52 Kdansky says:
Well, Zynga games are not about combat, but many are not really games either. They are just a well-done amalgamation of all that triggers our brain to compulsively continue playing them.
But why are there no RPGs without combat? No Action games without murder? No Strategy games without killing? The only other genre are puzzle games, and boy, do I hate puzzle games.
Yes, there are exceptions like Prom Night but they are not numerous.
23/02/2012 at 16:54 Apples says:
Part of it is that combat and strategy are easy to simulate, human interaction is very difficult to simulate. I can’t remember where this comes from but I read an article/book once that posited that the easiest film to make is two people talking, and the hardest is a bunch of expensive CG spaceships and laserbeams. The opposite is true for games.
Non-combat games are usually puzzle games, which is fair enough but many people find them not immediately as engaging and exciting so they don’t tend to get as big an audience.
23/02/2012 at 16:57 Serge says:
Sims.
Or pretty much every sport game.
23/02/2012 at 16:58 nearly says:
I believe there was a strategy game a while ago that was entirely resource management. You had to balance the wants/needs of the Earth’s population with what nature could sustain, or something like that. It was very environmentally aware, drew a lot of praise. The issue is that these sorts of games tend to be more often than not just niche pursuits, never really posited as something masses of people want.
23/02/2012 at 17:00 Unaco says:
Alec Meer, when he was actually writing the Ian Manager series, likened that to an RPG game… so that’s an RPG without combat. Amnesia is an ‘adventure’ game without murder. Then there are things like the Sherlock Holmes games… adventures you don’t engage in any violence. 4 X Strategy games also tend to have ‘pacifist’ options. And there are plenty of business based strategy games.
Hell, one of the biggest games of last year was entirely non-violent… Portal 2.
So, really, there are plenty of games without violence/combat/murder.
23/02/2012 at 17:04 Apples says:
Portal 2 and Portal may not have had much blood in them but they were not particularly non-violent. You were constantly getting shot at, the narrative focus was on two robots who want to kill you and you want to kill them… at its heart it was a violent conflict, nevermind that the antagonists were inorganic.
23/02/2012 at 17:09 Kdansky says:
Unaco: Our definition of “plenty” seems to diverge widely. Sure, there are some games without combat. But some genres (FPS and RPG) are chock-full of murder and violence despite that not being a requirement. First Person games could be about pretty much anything, yet besides Portal, there isn’t much that’s not about killing a dude every ten seconds. The same holds true for RPGs. I played P&P RPGs for nearly a decade, and we only had some fight once every twenty to thirty hours. And again, other media (books and films) are not combat after combat either.
It’s not actually the existence of violence that I abhor. Imagine you would play a 50-hour RPG, and have five fights. Suddenly, every combat has meaning, and every fight is special. But Anders complaining about accidentally killing a mage in DA2, when the party brutally murders about a hundred bandits every single night in Kirkwall?
It’s hard to take a character seriously who is by all counts the worst mass-murderer in all of history.
But it’s so easy to write a combat engine, and when you have an engine that does something well, you might as well put a lot of that into your game.
23/02/2012 at 17:10 Thermal Ions says:
Destruction of robots != non-violent
23/02/2012 at 17:17 BobbyKotickIsTheAntichrist says:
@nearly: I think you’re talking about “Fate of the World”. That reminds, that i’ve yet to play that one. It’s sitting all pretty and lonesome on my harddisk since i bought it in an Indie Royale Bundle. xD
23/02/2012 at 17:20 acheron says:
As far as an RPG without combat, there was one a few years ago called “Dangerous High School Girls in Trouble!” which had non-combat gameplay to resolve situations. (Think playing card games to win an encounter.) Now maybe you’d say that’s still combat, just with different graphics, which: yeah, kind of. So it depends on what you mean by “combat”.
23/02/2012 at 17:23 Unaco says:
Hmmm… Yeah, funny that. The genre of “First Person Shooter” is full of shooting.
There are plenty of non-combat games, as I and others have said… Any sports game, management games, the Sims, SimCity and other city builders, some garnd strategy/empire building games, Portal and the other First Person Puzzlers coming about, adventure games, InMomentum, Simulators, rhythm games. Then you have games where it’s possible to play a pacifist… things like the X series for example, or 4X games.
Also, I don’t remember wanting to kill (or indeed killing) any robots in Portal 2. Avoiding automatic turret fire, sure… shutting computers down… sure. But no killing. And besides, it’s what the OP asked for… games without combat, not violence.
23/02/2012 at 17:45 Kdansky says:
Oh, I totally count Portal as a game without violence. I also count sports games, though to be honest, I find them utterly boring. If I want to play foot-to-ball, I will go outside and do that.
As for FPS: Yes, Shooters are full of shooting, well done at finding a straw-man. But we could do First Person not-shooter games too. Call them FPPs. First Person Perspective games. Like, erm, … the better half of Mirror’s Edge? Or Façade? Or Portal? Possibly Thief? Oh, look, four games in and I’m running out of examples and none of these is a clear hit anyway (but no coincidence: All of these are actually way more important games than CoD will ever be). Façade is so niche and unusual, it’s more of an art project than a game in the usual sense, the other three do have significant gunplay (and in the case of Mirror’s Edge really suffer for it).
But what bothers me is that a huge number of games has a lot of meaningless combat. Not the interesting encounters, or fights where something is at stake, or where you could die. But instead complete filler.
23/02/2012 at 19:02 LionsPhil says:
They’re called adventure games. They were quite popular in the ’80s and ’90s, in the land before Quake.
23/02/2012 at 19:04 Fumarole says:
The variously themed management games (Themepark Manager, etc.) are all strategy and have no combat as far as I know. It seems awfully shortsighted to ignore all the games that are not AAA titles.
23/02/2012 at 19:55 Eversor says:
That sounds somewhat in tune with what I thought about the combat in Dragon Age Origins. First time, yeah, I soldiered through. I was frustrated at times, I was bored out of my skull at times because I had to kill yet ANOTHER room full of darkspawn (damn you, Deep Roads, damn you to hell), but I soldiered through it to get the ending. I was done, I was satisfied.
When I was exploring the idea of playing DA:O again to try some different type of character, I always caught myself thinking: “Oh, but that would involve pulling myself through those 40+ hours of that combat…”. When I finally got around to playing the game a different way, I went out of my way to make the combat as trivial and swift as possible – I modded the most OP weapons I could find, modded the toughest and best looking armor and set the combat on Easy. There, the combat no longer intervened with what I wanted out of the game the most – the story bits, the dialogue, the decision making.
Honestly, I’m okay with a choice. There are times when the combat just doesn’t feel rewarding, when it feels like it’s in the way of the actual draw to the game. I sometimes watch my brother playing video games. When he plays GTA games, he goes all out hardcore about it, going for all side missions and everything, embracing in combat to the full. When he plays games like Fallout 3 or Skyrim, he simply clicks the tilde key, types in “tgm” and effortlessly hacks his way through the enemies that are now useless. Maybe he just enjoys one type of combat more than the other. Maybe he simply likes adventuring casually in a fantasy world on one day, while taking on he weight of a thug-life firefights the other day. Thinking about it, I see no actual reason why developers shouldn’t let him to play the game the way he wants. It’s a singleplayer game, it’s his copy, it’s his fun in doing what he wishes with the game.
So yeah, maybe we should realize that we have moved past the games of old where draconian difficulty was there only to prolong the gameplay time or pull quarters out of our pockets, and realize that they have expanded and become much more varied than that. One might hope that people would eventually realize and accept that there are more than one true way of doing things, alas, we still have a long, hard road infront of us before that happens.
27/03/2012 at 00:10 Ymarsakar says:
Eversor, do what I do, check out the SRPGs made from Japan and with English subtitles by fans. Two games that had a smooth blend of Story and gameplay were Utawarerumono and Planescape Torment, one a SRPG VN and the other a Black Isle productions CRPG.
The Japanese market have somehow hit upon the specialization and gold mine of making games that have 90 or even 99% story content and the only gameplay is like skipping through it. To be fair, Fallout 3′s combat and Skyrim’s combat are rather different and often times boring or tedious. While it may be an issue of competition and bragging to say that you completed a console game with X million points, there’s no need to do that when it’s only the NPC’s head in Fallout 3 blowing up due to bloody perk. The Japanese producers have specialized. Those that want combat, they integrate that into SRPGs. Those that just want the story, they produce visual novels like Fate Stay Night, which to be honest, had better “battle” scenes than most games I’ve played.
23/02/2012 at 21:16 jrodman says:
I think portal (1, i didn’t play 2) is on the edge of the question posed. It’s certainly violent, but it’s not particularly combat oriented. There is combat, but usually fairly indirect. Or at least, it’s automated static opponents with you just avoiding damage. A funny sort of combat.
Certainly the end of the game felt much more combat-ey. Or at least it looked like it.
I personally hit SKIP from the conveyor belt into the fire until the end of the boss battle. I watched it on youtube.
24/02/2012 at 07:59 LionsPhil says:
Portal 1 is still fairly twitch; the mechanics toward the end of the game make demands comparable to a firefight—fast, precise aiming and careful movement control.
Portal 2 played that down an awful lot. It was mostly for the better IMO, but they didn’t really push the puzzle complexity up to completely compensate, just lots of talking. Competently delivered Valve talking, but still not gameplay.
23/02/2012 at 16:47 Dr I am a Doctor says:
I hate games being games. I hope we will attain a hamfisted dialogue/slow walking singularity soon
23/02/2012 at 18:01 Kaira- says:
I hate games which have no other means of driving interest than violence.
23/02/2012 at 16:47 Phantoon says:
If you skip the gameplay, and skip the story, what is left?
23/02/2012 at 16:50 Dr I am a Doctor says:
Indie games.
23/02/2012 at 16:52 Jams O'Donnell says:
Zyng!
23/02/2012 at 17:01 ScottTFrazer says:
I see what you did there, Jams. And I approve.
24/02/2012 at 03:15 2late2die says:
But you can do the same with books, movies, music and any other art form with an element of time. So why not games? I mean, you don’t care if I buy a book and read only the last page, right? Yeah it’s silly, maybe even crazy, but it has absolutely no affect on you. The author might take offense if they knew but they still got their money and there are plenty other people who didn’t skip to the end so they’ll live. So I mean, why the heck not??
23/02/2012 at 16:48 Brun says:
My philosophy is that, in a properly designed game, the narrative and combat should be intertwined well enough that the player should not want to skip either one.
Put another way – ideally, the combat and narrative should be indistinguishable to the player. That is, there shouldn’t be clear “narrative” segments and clear “combat” segments.
23/02/2012 at 16:54 Drac40k says:
This.
23/02/2012 at 17:00 Xocrates says:
This is part of the reason why I called the subject “slightly muddier” bellow. However the issue here is that “should not want to skip” and “should not be allowed to skip” isn’t the same thing.
23/02/2012 at 17:01 Apples says:
Yeah I think this comes closest to what I think. Sorry to bring up films, but most films (outside of blatent action films) do not have ten-minute sequences where the protagonist beats up three waves of same-faces enemies for no reason before entering each room. The only reason we find that engaging is because we’re doing it; it does not serve the story, setting, atmosphere, characters, anything. On the other hand, climactic battles, or combat that in some way demonstrates something (think of the obvious sexual overtones in the fights in whichever Terminator film had the female Terminator) are likely to be tolerated and useful.
I can’t help but think that most of it comes down to clearly defined segments of narrative/gameplay being just easier to make. Lazy game-making and a lazy, blinkered view of what a game and what gameplay ‘should be’ – gameplay = shooty bits right?? gotta have lots of those then!
23/02/2012 at 17:04 weaselsoup says:
What if the choice of whether or not to skip the combat were also part of the narrative you’re building as you play?
23/02/2012 at 17:06 Brun says:
However the issue here is that “should not want to skip” and “should not be allowed to skip” isn’t the same thing.
My point was that we shouldn’t even really be having this debate in the first place. Developing game systems to the point at which combat/gameplay and narrative are inseparable would render the entire debate moot.
That said, I think that it will be a long time before game systems are developed to that point, especially since the industry seems to be heading in the opposite direction).
23/02/2012 at 17:07 Maldomel says:
Yes! Sadly, many games are missing this point by a thousand miles.
23/02/2012 at 17:14 SurprisedMan says:
Brun’s view agrees with my own here. If you want to skip EITHER the dialogue or the combat, there’s probably something wrong with your storytelling/narrative. But as Xocrates says, there’s no reason it shouldn’t be an option for both.
Also, I wouldn’t quite go as far to say that there’s isn’t ever a case for a sort of story-action-story structure. For example I’m working on a retro style action game at the moment which is mostly just action, but we’ve put little story moments between each of the four ‘missions’. Because of the nature of the action, it’d be very tricky to insert them into the action and get the same effect we’re going for, so we’re keeping them separate, in the form of brief, skippable cutscenes.
Then again, that gives me pause. If you skipped the action in the game, all you’d be doing is watching about 5 minutes worth of dialogue cutscenes, then the credits. It’s very much gameplay heavy and story light, even though we love the little bit of story we included. So I suspect it probably depends what sort of game you’re making as to whether it makes sense to make the action skippable.
23/02/2012 at 17:18 Xocrates says:
@Brun: There are reasons to wanting to skip part of a game irrelevant to how well designed it is, so yes, the debate is relevant regardless. A good example is the amount of arachnophobes who mentioned being unable to complete a game because there’s a big fricking spider somewhere on it.
23/02/2012 at 17:20 Brun says:
I can’t help but think that most of it comes down to clearly defined segments of narrative/gameplay being just easier to make.
Of course they’re easier to make. I think the kind of ideal situation that I’m describing would be impossible with current game design standards and likely impossible with current technology. We would need some major advances in procedural content generation to accomplish it.
What if the choice of whether or not to skip the combat were also part of the narrative you’re building as you play?
I think in the ideal game I’m describing this would be true by definition.
23/02/2012 at 17:20 diamondmx says:
Many films do actually have story sections you could reasonably call ‘combat’ and ‘story progression’. Especially those in the generally-more-shallow action genre.
Let’s take a martial arts film, for example: Story bit, fighting, story bit, fighting, fighting with story bit, fighting, story bit, fighting, story end bit.
That isn’t as true as with films which aren’t as action-oriented. There are few films that have ‘story bit, investigation bit, story bit’ as the parts are basically difficult to seperate, with the investigation bit being a story bit too.
Maybe the solution is to interweave the story through combat as you see in some action films. Shouting at each other in between volleys of gunfire, or punch-punch-talk as you’d see in a martial arts film. Hey, monkey island combat but less random!
23/02/2012 at 17:24 VelvetFistIronGlove says:
So you momentarily pause the thrust of your rapier to throw some repartee? Like Monkey Island then :)
Edit: Ninja’d with the Monkey Island comparison! Great minds…, eh?
Jokes aside—and leaving aside the obvious interaction, temporal, and mechanical reasons why combat and story are usually segregated, I just want to point out that in most RPGs, combat is, narratively, useless filler.
For the most part, there are two possible outcomes to a combat encounter: you win, and continue the game (and story), or you die, and reload/respawn/otherwise and have to try it again. Some games will let you flee mid-battle as a softer failure state, but in very few is that choice or the choice to avoid starting the combat in the first place actually recognised by the story.
For this reason, the combat only functions to increase your XP and supply you with some loot—just as listening to NPC dialogue only supplies you with information (which you may not care about, or may already know from a previous playthrough).
Moreover, because the combat is designed to be irrelevant to the story, and partly because it is traditional, and partly because it is designed to be an enjoyable game element in itself (if designed well), combat encounters are heavily used throughout RPGs. They give the game a feeling of substance, but they aren’t particularly meaningful.
23/02/2012 at 17:24 Brun says:
@Xocrates:
Continuing with your example of the huge spider, in the ideal game avoiding the spider would not only be an option, but the narrative would change seamlessly to account for the fact that the player avoided it and for the manner in which it was avoided.
23/02/2012 at 17:32 Jimbo says:
Absolutely agree. That we even consider skipping one whole aspect of the game is a failure of game design in the first place. We have become too accustomed to games feeling like two (or multiple) seperate products -one passive, one interactive- that just happen to come packaged in the same box and run alongside each other. The different aspects should impact and resonate with each other to create a game which is more than the sum of its parts.
Deciding you want to skip the combat or skip the narrative should seem as absurd as deciding you’d really rather watch The Godfather without the dialogue, or deciding you want to listen to a piece of music with half the chords removed. That’s great that people know what they like and don’t like, but at some point I believe we have to allow the artist to decide what’s best for us in order for gaming to fulfill its potential. You might pick a tomato out of a Whopper in Burger King -and that’s fine for some games too- but you might be a little more hesitant to tell a top chef to leave a main ingredient out of his signature dish. I believe a certain level of respect from consumer to creator is required if you want gaming to aspire to being more than Burger King is to food. If you don’t like the ingredients, order a different meal – we have many to choose from.
It’s also inaccurate to say that how others play the game doesn’t affect you. When they’re gathering stats about how everybody uses their product and base their future designs on it then it very much affects me. This may seem a democratic method for establishing how games should be designed in future and therefore it’s fair enough if 60% of people skip the gameplay that their next game should be a movie, or 60% skip the dialogue so their next game is going to be a straight shooter. The problem with this is it that rather than end up with the entire market being effectively supplied with a variety of games for different tastes, you end up with the lowest common denominator (for want of a less loaded term) being oversupplied by everybody. You will end up with either ‘Most people don’t like tomatoes, so let’s never use tomatoes in anything’ or ‘Most people do like tomatoes, so we’re going to put them in everything’.
23/02/2012 at 17:38 Kolchak says:
I completely agree. If you want to skip the story the story needs editing, if you want to skip combat the combat needs a major overhaul.
Look Bioware games can be great, they’re the closest thing we have to a choose your own adventure novel in game form. But let’s not lie to ourselves those games at their best could still use script doctors. Characters will blabber on about things the player already knows, many of the dialogue wheel choices are superfluous just to give the player added illusion of freedom. And some characters are just crap, in Mass Effect 1 you have to choose between saving Kaiden or Ashley. What should have been an aggravating decision just didn’t matter to me, they were the two characters that I cared the LEAST about.
Skipping combat is basically giving a pass on poor game design. If gamers like Hepler are asking “Why do I have to play this?” then the game developers need to ask “Why don’t they WANT to play this?” Not making you fight through countless fodder again and again to extend the length of the game would be a good start.
23/02/2012 at 17:41 Brun says:
@Jimbo:
Excellent points. It comes down to what people think they want vs. what they actually want. People think they want to skip combat (or skip narrative), and they demand it, so developers give it to them. But players don’t really want to skip combat or narrative – they only want to skip it because it isn’t engaging for them. What they really want is to be engaged and entertained, and if users are asking to skip your content it means that you’re doing something wrong, and that you aren’t giving them what they really want.
23/02/2012 at 17:53 Xocrates says:
@Brun: The concept of an “ideal” game is so subjective as to be meaningless. There are perfectly reasonable design choices for why you couldn’t avoid it, and that’s assuming it’s one spider as opposed to a recurring enemy type.
What’s more, you’re assuming you can predict every reason why someone would want to skip something and code appropriately, which is simply not viable. You cannot design a game while having in consideration every player phobias, peeves, and just plain suckiness at the game without allowing them to skip parts of it.
23/02/2012 at 17:56 Brun says:
You simply cannot design a game while having in consideration every players phobias, peeves, and just plain suckiness at the game without allowing them to skip parts of it.
You can’t design it currently. I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t believe the technology exists yet to implement these ideas or philosophies.
23/02/2012 at 18:02 Xocrates says:
This is not a technology issue.
23/02/2012 at 18:22 Brun says:
You’re correct that this is a design issue more than a pure technology issue. However, design is constrained by the limits of technology.
23/02/2012 at 19:04 Xocrates says:
Design can be constrained by technology, yes, but that’s not my problem with your argument.
From my view, your point can be interpreted in one of two ways:
1) Any game that isn’t at least as complex as Deus Ex shouldn’t be made, which means killing a lot of perfectly viable games, including the likes of Portal which merge gameplay and narrative quite well, but doesn’t allow for a justification to going off rails.
2) Players CAN skip content, but the game justifies their decision to do so, meaning that instead of a player skipping ahead with the notion that they missed content, completing the game without doing anything isn’t just possible, it’s completely ok.
23/02/2012 at 19:08 Hoaxfish says:
person 1: I really like that film Moon.
person 2: I wish Moon had more kung fu in it.
At what point would technology allow more kung fu in Moon without drastically altering the concept of the film?
I don’t think films are a good thing to bring into this (given that they are not interactive), but there is at least an idea that you can only convey one thing at a time, whether it’s action, philosophy, candyland fun, horror, etc. In fact, a number of these are directly opposing ideas.
23/02/2012 at 19:26 Archonsod says:
One of the reasons it would be incredibly useful is for the developers to use it. Try skipping all the combat and only going through the dialogue while asking “is this fun?”, then do the same, skipping the dialogue and only going through the combat. If at any point the answer is “no”, then go back to the drawing board and change it.
Perhaps then we wouldn’t need skippable sequences at all.
23/02/2012 at 19:26 Brun says:
I’ll address both of those points.
1) I should have pointed out that there are a few specific genres toward which this idea is geared – primarily RPGs, story-driven action games, and nonlinear open world games. I guess a better word for them would be “choice-driven” games. So yes, there are some genres to which you’d likely be unable to apply such a design. And that’s fine. Those games can still exist.
Your reference to DXHR is interesting as I would argue that such a game is not complex enough to be the kind of baseline I’m thinking of. Skyrim comes a little closer but even it is inadequate as its story system, AI, and consequences for player actions are still too primitive.
2) I’m actually okay with this. Everything I’ve said is based on the notion of a narrative (and indeed, a broader gameplay experience) that changes in response to player action, down to the very fine details of those actions (to include things like how you approach combat, for example). Those player actions would, necessarily, include doing nothing at all. A decision to do nothing would, obviously, lead to a pretty dull gameplay experience. However, I’m assuming (and I believe this assumption to be valid) that most players will not buy a game and then do nothing in that game, which means it wouldn’t really be a problem.
23/02/2012 at 19:35 Hoaxfish says:
Developers do not need to build “skip” buttons into their own games to evaluate if it’s fun or not… that’s why games have cheat codes and command line input.
23/02/2012 at 21:03 Phydaux says:
What if I played your excellent game 100 times already and I just want to play the bits I like best?
I’ve read Dune many times. Sometimes I like to pick up the book and just read some of my favourite chapters, I’m not forced to read from start to end. I’m not forced to read the forward or preface. Likewise with Lord of The Rings. If I want to look at some of the appendices, I don’t have to read through the 6 books first. Why then do games force this on us? I should be able to skip all the bits I’ve seen a hundred times before, regardless of their quality or integration. Regardless whether they fall into “combat” or “narrative” or any other mechanic.
23/02/2012 at 22:32 LintMan says:
The problem with saying that a well done game shouldn’t ever have story or gameplay bits you want to skip is that is an unreachable ideal. Some gamers will never see the story as something more than filler between battles. Some gamers will discover they hate or find tedious the combat mechanics of a particular game but still want to see the story through. There is no such thing as the perfect story or gameplay that no one will dislike or find boring. And certainly there is no such game that contains both universally acclaimed story AND gameplay.
Yes, it’s a nice ideal that game devs should strive for, but it really has no place in a discussion whether certain gameplay bits should be skippable. This is like going into a discussion of installing handicap ramps and saying that, really, medical science just needs to do a better job making the handicapped walk again, so why bother with the ramps?
And I really hate the “consumers must respect the game devs as Master Chefs who will decide what’s best for them to eat” analogy. It’s a completely bogus argument generally used to tell people who want some change or improvement in a game to suck it up and be quiet by people protecting the status quo. Most restaurants (even fancy/expensive ones) are happy to accomodate small requests/substitutions and in any case, a meal lasts an hour or so, while games can last 10, 50, or 100+ hours.
Anywya, I heartily support the idea of “skip combat” button. And even more so: a “SKIP QUICK TIME EVENT” button.. Oh god yes! Die QTE’s! Die! Umm, sorry about that. Cheat codes like god mode go a long way towards helping with this, but don’t really relieve the tedium (if that’s what your complaint is) and often don’t help in the face of “Press X not to die!” scripted deaths which happily ignore god mode.
Even for games that I thoroughly enjoyed, like Dragon’s Age, I see the value in skippable combat: After 3 playthroughs as all the classes, I wanted to play through all the other origins, but by then all the battles had gotten to be a slog. I’d have loved to be able to skip many of those battles after the 3rd/4th/5th time playing them. Same with doing the alternate quest line in The Witcher 2.
23/02/2012 at 23:14 equatorian says:
@Lintman
I once went into a very fancy sushi restaurant and ordered a set. The set happens to have a really super high-class sushi in it that everybody who likes sushi simply ADORES.
I can’t eat that thing. I vomit when I do. It’s not an allergic reaction, I just can’t stand it.
So I asked them to change that one for a saltwater eel, which is so much inferior in terms of class but is something I actually enjoy. The staff looked at me weirdly for a moment, asked me if I’m sure because THIS PIECE OF SUPER SUSHI, but was completely all right with it when I said yes. Some people looked at me oddly because we love sushi and we don’t do this, dammit, but it’s my throat and my tongue and my gut vomit reaction, not theirs.
I reckon this is kind of like ‘skipping the gameplay bits to get to the bad story because a game’s story is always inferior to the gameplay’, in a way.
24/02/2012 at 12:52 InternetBatman says:
I agree with this post 100%, but I would take it further. The artificial division between story, dialog, and the way you play hurts games more than combat you can’t skip.
Why do we need cutscenes? Why can’t we talk to mobs? Why can’t we skip most combat by going around them, sneaking around them, bribing them off, talking them down? Why doesn’t sneaking past an enemy give equal experience as fighting them? Why do all npcs, who we’re supposed to pretend are intelligent actors, keep on attacking after seeing most of their group killed?
These are all problems with game design. Games have let you skip combat while still playing the game for decades, they’ve just forgotten how to do it well. The desire to skip combat is just a sign of a broken system. Bioware games have become a broken system. They’ve been fairly linear in game level and combat design for a while, and that’s started to bleed over to linearity in dialog choices and narrative decisions. It’s no wonder people want to skip combat in their games, they have no choice about how it’ll play out, and it’s filled with constant trash mobs that are just grinding.
And I don’t think is impossible with current technology, far from it. It just requires that you give your mobs behaviors and think about them as actors instead of challenges.
23/02/2012 at 16:49 JonWood says:
I feel the need to comment that I skipped over most of that.
Not because it was a poor article, I’ll probably come back to it, but I’m not in the mood right now.
23/02/2012 at 16:53 Wertymk says:
I only looked at the pictures.
23/02/2012 at 16:57 Kdansky says:
I mashed my keyboard so hard it was awesome, no matter which button I pressed.
23/02/2012 at 17:02 alexheretic says:
droll
23/02/2012 at 16:49 Icyicy9999 says:
I don’t care about the option existing, as long as it remains an option and isn’t forced on me.
Also for it to work the game would need to have a very well written story and dialogue, BioWare’s recent games (DA2, SWTOR) are cringe worthy in those departments, so I don’t see much point.
23/02/2012 at 16:59 Mordsung says:
I actually enjoyed DA2s story immensely.
Yes, the repeated areas were a huge let down, and many other aspects of the game irked me, but I REALLY liked the story.
It wasn’t an archetypal “hero’s journey” story like DA1, it was a much more twisting and intertwined narrative that was more about the characters and the city than necessarily the world or a big bad evil.
Not every game has to follow the same archetypal story arcs.
23/02/2012 at 16:59 Gpig says:
I think that’s what is so weird about this discussion to me. This article mentions Human Revolution, but most of the people asking for this are explicitly talking about Bioware games. The idea of wanting to skip ahead to read the writing sounds terrible. It’s asking for Bioware games to be streamlined to their worst part.
That said, it doesn’t seem like it would be much work for them to add and it doesn’t sound like it would hurt anything so they might as well include it. I imagine the only reason for not doing so is for all of the troll posts that would include mentions that they started skipping the boring action to get to the cutscenes about halfway through, and then eventually they started skipping both.
23/02/2012 at 17:01 nearly says:
I don’t see why a game needs to have strong writing to have skippable combat. People skip well-written dialogue every day. As an option, it’s not just cutting something out of the game regardless of whether anyone wants it, it’s allowing the choice: allowing the gamer to say “I don’t want to do this” and not have to do it to experience more of the game, at their own discretion.
23/02/2012 at 17:50 Cal says:
There are a number of non-BioWare games where I’d like to skip the combat or have a super easy mode without needing to use any subterfuge. Persona 3 is one, I loved the life sim part but the combat just because a massive chore I wanted no part of. And Alpha Protocol’s combat wasn’t so much a pain as just not fun. For a non-RPG example, I feel the same way about King Arthur II. Along the same vein, I still want a Mirror’s Edge with no enemies in it.
Funnily enough, Mass Effect is probably the game at the bottom of the list as I grew up with shooters and it’s a pretty competent one.
23/02/2012 at 17:59 Kdansky says:
I second Mordsung. DA2 has a great story. It’s not a Hero’s Journey, and the protagonist you’re playing (Hawke) isn’t actually a major protagonist of the story (those would be Isabela, the Arishok and Anders). It is actually an example of a game where less combat would have made for a superior product: Without the needless fighting of mooks at every corner, many areas would not need so much recycling.
@Cal: Yes, both Persona (4 in my case) and Alpha Protocol are good games filled with bad combat.
23/02/2012 at 19:29 Skabooga says:
@Cal: I would like to add to that list parts of Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. My next playthrough, I am totally going to no-clip and god-mode through the sewers section, the Sabat section, and the boss fight of the Kue-jin (especially the later, in all its unfair frustration). My stupid, misguided principles just barely stopped me from doing it the first time through. If someone feels during all combat parts like I felt during my fight with the Kue-jin boss, then they have every damn right to skip those parts, and more power to them.
23/02/2012 at 16:51 Tyrone Slothrop. says:
“The idea that someone would play the utterly brilliant Dragon Age.”
You could have at least put some kind of qualification there.
23/02/2012 at 17:03 xephyris says:
I agree – I think it got really draggy near the end.
23/02/2012 at 17:12 Jumwa says:
I’d join in on the Dragon Age trashing, but I was too distracted with the horrible (and misadvertized) combat, which did not appeal to me at all. Never did finish the game because of it, and my memories all consist of tedious fight scenes that ended with frustration and button-lint as loot rewards.
If only there had been a skip-combat feature, I could join in!
23/02/2012 at 17:30 westyfield says:
I would have skipped the heck out of Dragon Age’s combat. I’d have abused a teleporter as well, so much tedious backtracking in that game.
23/02/2012 at 18:26 SkittleDiddler says:
I stopped reading when I got to that point in the article.
I’m on of “those” people who think the dialogue in DA is bad. It’s laughably derivative and poorly written, and I thank god there is at least an option to fast-forward through it all. Otherwise, I would never have slogged through the eight or so hours of the game that I did.
Actually, now that I think about it, an option in DA to skip the combat would have been a plus too. Though I suppose uninstalling the game counts for that.
25/02/2012 at 06:05 ffordesoon says:
The combat in the Dragon Age games is, with rare exceptions, terrible. There are so, so, so many trash mobs in those games, and they’re either too easy or way too hard. It’s the laziest sort of difficulty, too: the hard characters are hard because their life bars are bigger, not because they’re any different from most of the mobs mechanically. I mean, the series has “dragon” in the name, but I can think of nothing more boring and frustrating than actually fighting a dragon in those games. I ended up turning both games down to Easy by the end just to get the combat out of the way; that, to me, signifies a fundamental failure of combat design.
Would I have paid extra for a combat-skip button? You bet your ass.
23/02/2012 at 16:52 The Sombrero Kid says:
Everything in any game should be random access – right we’re not even able to fast forward never mind skip stuff, it comes from an old world ego centric and copy paste design that still permeates the games industry
23/02/2012 at 16:54 mompkin says:
Not exactly the same as in an RPG, but I was always thankful in the Total War series for the autoresolve option. Yes, I do enjoy micromanaging my armies tremendously, but there’s only so many times you can steamroll pesky piles of insolent peasant rebels before you’re relieved you can just click a button to dispose of them. I never felt it diminished the appeal of the combat for me – rather, I felt it increased my enjoyment immensely, because it made real battles more exciting and less repetitive feeling.
23/02/2012 at 17:24 Grygus says:
You know, this whole subject seemed uninteresting to me (in the sense that I would not use the option even if it did exist) but this is a pretty great example of a similar mechanic that I do indeed enjoy. I suppose I will need to reconsider my position.
Not now. I mean after lunch, probably.
24/02/2012 at 13:08 Boosterh says:
I am going to have to echo this sentiment. Regardless of whether I would use this feature or not, the fact that it does, essentially, exist as a standard feature of an entire genre of games already, kind of steals the wind from anyone claiming that it will result in horrible, dumbed down drek.
23/02/2012 at 16:54 2PartReturn says:
I totally agree.
I have a rotting heap of far too many unfinished games where I’ve become stuck at a certain point. I know what I have to do, hell I usually even know how I have to do it, but generally whatever it is relies on too much accuracy, repeated attempts or luck.
Same on boss fights. An interruption to the game. Super Meat Boy was the latest to get me here, first boss, can’t do it, rest of game rendered inaccessible.
After a few hours not getting anywhere I’ve usually lost interest and don’t bother to try again for a couple of years, which is a shame because I wanted to play the game.
23/02/2012 at 17:13 Zephro says:
Reminded me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG3aHvPG6H8
There are plenty of long grinding levels in games or just impossible/crap boss fights that I’d have happily skipped. So i think it’s a good idea.
23/02/2012 at 17:53 2PartReturn says:
Thank you for that link
23/02/2012 at 19:06 Blackcompany says:
2Part, I can relate to this. I was forced to halt the Witcher 2 because I simply cannot get through a Chapter 1 boss fight. Its too hard, insufficient room to maneuver and the boss himself is just a damage spunge. His tactics are stupid, his swings too weighty and he throws himself off balance all the time. But it only takes two, maybe three hits, and I am dead. However, I hit him multiple times and his health bar barely moved. At all.
.
Which sucks, because the game and story both intrigue me. I want to play more – I just can’t.
23/02/2012 at 23:18 LintMan says:
@Zephro: awesome link. That guy is spot on.
23/02/2012 at 16:55 Xocrates says:
I’ve seen people honestly defend that only a minority should be able to complete any given game. That people find the idea of skipping the “game” part of the game objectionable is therefore not even remotely surprising.
That said, while I believe the issue to be slightly muddier than what John presents, I agree that most games should, at least, include an invincibility mode.
23/02/2012 at 17:03 westyfield says:
It depends on the game. I haven’t played VVVVVV but from what I hear it wouldn’t be nearly as good as it is if you were able to skip levels. I may be getting this wrong but it seems that in some games the challenge to improve is the game.
23/02/2012 at 17:06 nearly says:
I think that it realistically comes down to why you game in the first place. To experience whatever the game is presenting, or to accomplish something? I do, somehow, get the feeling that an invincibility mode would take away from the people that want a challenge, even if it’s an option that they would have to specifically turn on.
23/02/2012 at 17:14 Xocrates says:
@westyfield: hence “most games”. However one should note that VVVVVV can be completed non-linearly, which helps a lot in that you can “skip” sections and come back later.
23/02/2012 at 17:27 Grygus says:
I have yet to cheat at a game and not have it negatively color my feelings about that game later on; all my favorite games are ones I did not have to cheat to complete. I do not think an invincibility mode would be in the interest of a game’s long-term legacy, if that’s something that devs even think about.
23/02/2012 at 17:59 Xocrates says:
@Grygus: I would expect 99.99% of gamers never to use it. I don’t see how this would affect a game’s legacy any more than up up down down left right left right B A START did.
23/02/2012 at 18:01 Nate says:
One does wonder what WoW would be like with skippable combat…
23/02/2012 at 21:58 jrodman says:
Re: Wow and skipping. The implied assumption here is that we’re discussing linear games, with a start and an end and things you traverse along the way. Wow is not like that. There’s a personal start, but the world was there before you started. And your only end is when you no longer feel like playing (or when the game shuts down, I suppose).
So I’m not sure the idea of “skipping” really fits exactly into the MMORPG mold (mould?).
Certainly there are certain activities that some players would like to prune parts out of. Perhaps players would prefer to skip trash and kill only bosses? Of course they would just more quickly tire of those bosses. The “endless” nature of wow changes many of the dynamics here.
24/02/2012 at 06:28 kavika says:
Not true at all. I would adore a “skip” in wow.
Going straight to the end-game dungeon content would absolutely make me want to play it again. I absolutely detest leveling up in the game at this point, whether it gets me accustomed to my abilities or not. But the end 5 mans are great.
I’d also love to be able to play all the different classes, but I refuse to level up to … what’s the cap now? 85? On each of them. leveling up to 70 on 3 different chars, and through a chunk (not even to the end) of lich king on 1 char was enough grind for me, thanks.
Plus, letting brand new players dungeon with me, or being able to actually *play with* the dozens of strangers (potential new friends) I met who played WoW over the years would have been wonderful. Not a single one I met ever played on the same server+faction as me, so I never talked to any of them except one couple (now great friends of mine) again.
23/02/2012 at 16:56 Mordsung says:
Personally, I’d love to be able to do a run of DA or ME and just skip the combat and do a pure story run. It would allow me to set up a new save for ME2 or DA2 without having to slug through the fights again.
DA was actually a game I commonly dropped the difficulty on because I was more interested in the story than the fights.
23/02/2012 at 17:09 nearly says:
While I think that’s probably valid for ME2, I think the first Mass Effect set up each story fight pretty appropriately, except maybe that bit on Ferros (was it) with the infected colonists. They were particular scenarios that seemed to arise organically from whatever situation you were entering into.
In Mass Effect 2, on the other hand, it felt a little more generic and scripted in a different way: like missions in an older Rainbow 6 games, but you get to act out/watch the story instead of read about it in briefings.
23/02/2012 at 16:56 impeus says:
There are too many games that I haven’t completed because I stumbled too often on a particular part then couldn’t get back into it. I don’t get much time to play games, and thus really don’t want to spend it all rehashing the same bit of a game I’ve almost forgotten to play (since it then gets even harder).
I’d love to be able to skip bits. I’d like to think I wouldn’t do it very often.
I think it’s similar to hints etc. in puzzle or adventure games. I wouldn’t even mind if it was hard to skip (or auto resolve?) sections of combat (think of the unlockable hint book in Machinarium). In fact I think I’d prefer to have to jump through a few hoops to skip (so I’m not tempted to do so after merely the first failure!)
I’d get more life out of the games I have, and potentially then buy more sequels/derivatives etc. as I managed to finish the previous incarnation.
23/02/2012 at 16:56 Suits says:
Vote space bar for skip button.
23/02/2012 at 19:16 Hoaxfish says:
At least an on-screen prompt showing which button is for skipping.
23/02/2012 at 16:57 Vagrant says:
My preferred solution would be to integrate story into the gameplay. I like story, but I don’t like to be able to put the controller down. QTEs do not count.
23/02/2012 at 16:57 Drac40k says:
You could fast forward in Alone in the Dark 5 (was it 5? the awful one).
24/02/2012 at 06:34 kavika says:
I fast-foward in emulators all the time. Not the same as a skip, but lets me get past the waiting parts, especially in RPGs.
23/02/2012 at 16:57 AbyssUK says:
Doesn’t LA Noire allow you to do this very thing ?
23/02/2012 at 18:31 DigitalSignalX says:
Yes, but I believe you have to have tried (and failed) the action part at least once. This surprised me greatly when I was playing and found this option pop up. It’s the first (and only AFAIK) AAA title that deliberately lets you skip the shooting/driving action bits in order to focus on dialog / narrative. I think it’s a great concept that lets people enjoy the game they want to, hopefully more developers pick up on the idea like Mass Effect 3′s “action only” mode in reverse.
23/02/2012 at 16:58 Brun says:
But the only rationale I can find for why people are so incredibly angry or upset by the possibility of Escape’s powers working elsewhere is because they’re perceiving it as an infringement of their own potential enjoyment of a game.
I think that some of the harder-core of the “core” gamer demographic consider narrative or story to be rewards for having the “skill” to pass the combat stages in games. Allowing people to skip the combat and go straight to the narrative devalues the reward (and therefore the game as a whole). It’s stupid I know but I think that it’s an important thing to consider.
Like I said earlier though, in an ideal game, combat and narrative would be indistinguishable from each other.
23/02/2012 at 17:38 Nim says:
Kind of attending a university course where you work your ass off doing assignments and attending lectures and then there’s some douché skipping lectures, handing in late assignments or not at all and still get the same grade as you despite the fact that that person would fail if the proper rules had been followed. I can definitively see some people feeling this way, I myself for instance although I cannot really pinpoint why. Maybe it’s a question of perceived fairness. It is unfair to you that you have to slog through all the bad bits when some other person (somewhere out there on the internet, a target easy to hate) goes straight to the best bits. Such a mentality is definitively there.
Maybe disable achievements for the person skipping a game mechanic?
23/02/2012 at 18:40 Lamb Chop says:
One thing that often gets glossed over in debates such as this is that the presence of choice changes your experience, even if you make all the same choices. Say you go to the store and grab the generic chip brand they offer. Great, some chips. If you go back next week, and there are thirty brands of chips, and you grab the same chip brand, you do not have the same relationship to those chips. Those are now the chips you have chosen. The act of choosing itself alters the experience.
Similarly, having skippable content of any sort, be it dialogue or combat alters the experience of the user, even if no content is skipped (note I haven’t made any kind of value judgment on that altered experience). In fact, I go through the mental exercise of placing myself in a mindset where such options do not exist. I’m metaphorically removing the escape key from my keyboard in order to experience the narrative.
Now for the value judgment. As it stands, I think the presence or absence of skippable content should be one of the marks of how seriously a game takes itself as artistic. There’s a specific mechanical and narrative vision that designers are trying to get across. Giving the user freedom to skip as they see fit is prioritizing the individual end-user experience over the vision of the designer. For some games, that might be fine. It’s light-hearted and the purpose is to have fun, so giving the end-user control of the story and the narrative makes sense. For other, more serious works, much of the point is that the designer is giving you their vision to experience and that becomes ‘more important’ than the fun of the end-user. I read David Foster Wallace precisely because he was so much smarter and more perceptive, and my personally editing his stories to my preference would only reduce my experience. For works that want to take seriously the integrity of their vision, I think that keeping control away from the user ultimately is better for the user. Should we be offering readers the option to skip over all the bits about fishing in Moby Dick?
tl;dr skippable content has its place but can be at odds with the vision of game designers which sometimes ought to take priority over end-user control in order to give the best experience.
23/02/2012 at 19:33 Cryo says:
I think that some of the harder-core of the “core” gamer demographic are pillocks.
23/02/2012 at 19:41 Skabooga says:
@Lamb-Chops: Should I ever read Moby Dick again, I’m skipping over the chapter where the Ishmael talks about why whales should be classified as fish and not mammals. Also, I’m skipping over the racist midnight cook scene. Am I infringing on Melville’s original artistic vision? Sure. But screw him. He’s dead, and I’m alive, and I’m not going to waste my time putting up with his unpleasantness. And if that attitude doesn’t fit within the major theme of Moby Dick, then I don’t know what does.
23/02/2012 at 22:06 jrodman says:
@Skabooga: Are there people who seriously don’t skip parts of moby dick? First time through I read the first 2 pages of the pre-launch sermon and skipped to the end.
23/02/2012 at 22:08 jrodman says:
Err, the end of the sermon, I meant. Most of that one chapter, which is almost entirely inconsequential to the rest of the text.
24/02/2012 at 06:43 kavika says:
I see no problem with making it a rule to be allowed to skip whatever you want, and making a pseudo-genre of games that would deliberately break that rule.
Demon’s Souls and the newer Megaman games cater to a crowd like this. So do games like multiplayer starcraft, fighting games, and League of Legends. S&M and true Kung Fu aren’t for everyone.
23/02/2012 at 16:58 Mihkel says:
The article should be named skippable gameplay not combat, because that what’s being talked about in the interview you linked.
23/02/2012 at 16:59 Jockie says:
Couple of points that immediately spring to mind (which is my way of saying I probably haven’t considered them thoroughly yet).
In the past we’ve heard developers saying (I will cite specific examples later if anyone is discussing this) they don’t like using branching paths in narrative games, because of the idea that it means gamers don’t play through all of the content and therefore they lose efficiency – creating content that only x% of the gamers actually see.
Therefore they can’t make this content a priority, it becomes secondary to making sure the content that everyone sees is the stellar part of the game. Obviously, you make combat skippable, they lose incentive to actually make this part of the game the best it can be, instead focusing, time and money and manpower elsewhere. This kind of logic might be part of the reason for the backlash John’s comments have received, people don’t want to see the combat become a periphal underdeveloped part of the game – (LA Noire is a decent example of this).
5PM means I don’t have time for my second point!
23/02/2012 at 17:23 Urthman says:
Yes. I think this is the real problem with this idea, that developers will use it as a crutch or excuse instead of fixing the parts of their game that aren’t fun.
In a lot of games, I get the impression that the developers didn’t really care about the dialogue or try very hard to make it good. I’m guessing the attitude was often, “most people are gonna skip this anyway, so who cares.” I’d hate for developers to have that attitude about combat or boss fights (or anything).
“This section of our game is too hard / annoying / tedious / sucks.”
“We’re behind schedule anyway, players can just always just skip it…”
If you say, “I wish I could skip this section of the game,” shouldn’t you be saying instead, “I wish this section of the game were better.” There’s already plenty of bad gameplay I successfully skip by not buying games that suck. I want games that don’t suck.
23/02/2012 at 16:59 Dervish says:
Let’s call it the un-game button.
“Can’t get past this tricky bit… let me just un-game for a sec. There. Sorted.”
23/02/2012 at 16:59 Ba5 says:
Walking in Dear Esther was a bit slow, thechineseroom should make a button that teleports you to the radio mast.
23/02/2012 at 17:00 woodsey says:
It’s an interesting point, and I think much of the backlash comes from the perception that a) The combat is the MAIN section of the gameplay, conversations are secondary, and b) That games are being dumbed down/made too easy.
I can understand the view of the latter the most and, whilst I know that logically it makes sense to allow people to skip it, I also can’t quite get past the idea that allowing people to pick and choose parts of the game they interact with to such an extent is somewhat defeating the point.
Still, I’m inclined to agree that it’s not a bad idea (in theory), and it’s ultimately your choice, so why not? I can’t really see it working all that well in practice though, I must say. Nor do I really want to see development time devoted to making it more than just the cutscenes all stuck together.
And if it IS just all the cutscenes stuck together, they’d be much better of playing an interactive story majig (Masq), so… yeah.
23/02/2012 at 17:00 Auspex says:
But I have no willpower and if I got really stuck I might be tempted to skip and then I’d hate myself. (Can’t remember the last time I was really stuck at a particular point in a game but that’s beside the point!)
23/02/2012 at 17:28 blind_boy_grunt says:
Haha, exactly. My usual adventure game playthrough goes like this: play for an hour, get really stuck, try everything with everything, nothing works, so i look in a walkthrough. Play for half an hour, get stuck, try everything with everything, look in the walkhtrough. Play for 10 minutes, get kinda stuck, look in the walkthrough. In the end as soon as i feel i don’t know exactly what to do, i look in the walkthrough.
edit: i think what i’d like is a “let’s stick a pin in it and move on for now” button.
24/02/2012 at 04:37 Acorino says:
Yeah, it took me many years to move past this behaviour of playing adventure games. Now when I’m stuck I often just take a break from the game. That can be hard to do of course when you want to know how the story continues.
23/02/2012 at 17:00 moarage says:
The problem, imo, is that games doesn’t have the rewarding feeling of accomplishment anymore… I remember cutscenes used to a “reward” for beating a boss, I would just sit back and enjoy. This feeling just isn’t there anymore in most games.
23/02/2012 at 17:01 The Kins says:
This has already been added to games, and has been around for decades. They’re called cheat codes. But hey, you can’t fill your daily required word count writing about those, now can you?
(That’s a challenge. Write an article on cheat codes, their history and interesting/amusing effects etc… Odds are it would actually be interesting instead of passive-aggressive filler.)
23/02/2012 at 17:09 LTK says:
Maybe it used to be like that, but nowadays very few games go out of their way to give the player game-breaking cheat codes. When’s the last time you had to enter a specific button combination to unlock a certain item or skill? Console commands don’t count, mind you; those are in the game mainly for the developers’ benefit.
23/02/2012 at 17:16 John Walker says:
I’m fairly sure I could fill this mysterious daily word count writing about that. I haven’t today though. I wrote about something else! Could you let me know what my word count is, by the way?
23/02/2012 at 17:01 Zippy says:
Dialogue is skippable because you can’t lose at dialogue. A combat that can’t be lost should be skippable – but then the combat wouldn’t be terribly interesting to play through, either.
23/02/2012 at 17:20 DemonicFerret says:
You SHOULD be able to lose at dialogue, though. Another way in which PS:T was ahead of its time.
23/02/2012 at 17:39 Kaira- says:
You can’t really “lose” in combat most of the time. It’s non-canon, an error that didn’t really happen. You just replay until you win.
23/02/2012 at 17:01 Thermal Ions says:
Given the story in a game has the potential to set it apart from the crowd, thus making it the unique aspect, it’s suitably valid that one may want to experience it without the interruption of extended interaction. One could argue that it’s no longer a game in such context, but does that really matter if the “player” enjoys their time with it?
I’d agree with John that I’d rarely (if ever) use it, but it would be interesting to see a developer trust in their story enough to go out there and build the functionality into their game.
Actually the way I play Shogun 2 just came to mind. I almost always auto resolve battles. So while not story driven I do effectively skip the RTS combat and only play the turn based setting. Hmmm.
23/02/2012 at 17:03 Gaytard Fondue says:
People playing Shogun 2 the wrong way make me sick.
23/02/2012 at 17:09 Blackcompany says:
I could very easily have just explored Bastion’s world without the combat. Walked the slowly assembling pieces of scenery as they came together around me, listened to Stranger narrate. Located lost items. Just…watched. Easily would have worked for me.
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In fact the girlfriend loved the tale of Bastion. Said she was glad she watched me play it and listened in, because she enjoyed hearing the story but could never abide the combat. Too fast twitch for her taste.
23/02/2012 at 17:02 Slaktus says:
Soooooo, you want choose your own adventure books read out loud for ya. With animation.
Cool. I’m not gonna complain about it, I just think it’s a baffling idea, considering dialogue trees are essentially QTE’s without any of the visceral thrill. I haven’t played a game where dialogue choices had proper meaning since Planescape: Torment, and it’s not like even that Sacred Cow is so well-written I’d have wandered through it again.
I don’t see this as being very different from the complaints raised against social games: That they’re not really games at all, just interfaces with counters that require minuscule engagement rather than actual, meaningful interaction.
It also reduces games to expensive, real-time rendered, inexpressive and stilted soap opera. It kills the whole purpose of games, namely the exploration and manipulation of a system and waters them down into something less than both film and literature. Look at Heavy Rain for an example of precisely how pointless this approach to interactivity really is.
It’s not going to open any wider audiences either. Frankly, I don’t see the point whatsoever. Games will reach large audiences when enough people are system and game literate, and cheap, powerful fixed-spec computers (like the iPad) are completely standard and there’s no more fragmentation across various proprietary platforms and any game you buy will work on any computer without any tedious maintenance work or technical understanding required.
Of course, I understand that John is not suggesting every game should be like this or that it’s a great ideal everyone should strive for. I just think it’s a slightly poorly considered piece of opinionating from someone who maybe, deep inside, expects games to be something that they are not and will never be.
23/02/2012 at 17:12 Apples says:
You’re trying to depict narrative-based games as ‘lesser’ than gameplay-based ones purely through being derogatory about them, though. Do you know that human interaction is also a ‘system’ that can be explored and experienced? Exploring consequences of choice in a narrative is a perfectly valid thing to do. You seem to view that as something pointless or lesser but I view repeatedly clicking mobs that way, so, you know… different tastes? Why do you want ‘visceral thrill’ from your games? I don’t. Again we want different things here!
And bringing up one bad game as an example of why the entire idea is flawed is very silly. Heavy Rain, by the way, was mostly linear except that sometimes characters dropped out of the story if you got them killed. It was all the visceral thrill QTEs you say you like and none of the branching story or character interaction that would actually be required for a good pure narrative game.
23/02/2012 at 18:39 Slaktus says:
I’d like to see you abstract human interaction into a coherent, mappable system that can easily be abstracted into algorithms and code. People have tried that before, and it has resulted in intellectual abortions like Game Theory, which is a grotesque simulacrum of what people would behave like if the world was perfectly Malthusian. Chris Crawford, one of the great thinkers in computer game design, spent over a decade attempting to create a simulation system that would enable non-linear human interaction. He failed. I don’t see anyone else stepping up to the plate.
Besides, I didn’t call Heavy Rain “a bad game” — I brought it up as an example of a game shorn of mechanics, built around the notion that storytelling and interpersonal interaction can be made into a gripping game experience. I called it pointless because that’s precisely what it is.
The game could have been a sequence of YouTube videos with embedded links and might actually have been improved by that. Can you come up with any examples from the last 30 years of games that successfully model a varied, non-linear system for conversation and interpersonal interaction where the options are not rigidly defined not only by the game design but also by its script?
You’re also putting words in my mouth — I never idealized viscerality, I suggested that at least QTEs have that going for them, unlike conversation trees which generally have little more than foldback schemes and false choices. How much have conversation trees really evolved since the Lucasart days?
Fahrenheit, Deus Ex and Mass Effect introduce streamlining and attempt to make the convention less uninteresting, but end up making the player feel like their agency has been hobbled. They also give me the uncomfortable feeling that no matter what I say, I’m just delivering a variation on the same line, allowing my conversational partner to deliver the very same response as he would otherwise.
Games like Dear Esther provide non-combat oriented thrills. The same goes for Myst, most point’n'clickers and many modern role-playing games feature stealth classes or character builds that allows the player to avoid combat, by substituting the challenge of combat for another.
23/02/2012 at 17:03 Thaewyn says:
I had a very similar thought when I read that quote.
At the time, I was playing the original Uncharted. A game with many fine cinematic qualities, and some interesting puzzles and conversations, but the shooting sequences were boring, which quickly turned into irritating.
Here’s the scene: “Oh hey, I’ve got to go save the girl who jumped out of the plane before I did. Oh! There are people on this island who want to shoot me just because I’m the player character… ok. *shooting happens* Ok, now lets go find *bang* what the crap? I just killed everyone in front of me and wasted most of my ammo doing it. You’re telling me that more random people just climbed out of the bushes behind me and started shooting? I already killed all of the people from the last area, what the hell?”
I felt like it was less Indiana Jones and more ‘Stand Behind Cover in Black and White: The Game’. Note that I was on Easy because this game was a rental and my hope was to just play through and understand the story so I could get into the later games in the series.
I would have absolutely adored a ‘skip combat’ button about 2/3rds through the game. Here’s what I’m envisioning (specific to Uncharted 1, other games would have to do it a little differently of course): if you get so frustrated with a combat sequence that you just don’t want to deal with it anymore, you get the ‘Cinematic Combat’ option. Press a button, and the scene changes somewhat. No additional waves of enemies beyond the first. The game does not go into any kind of pre-rendered scene, but uses the game engine, and guides you through the fight. Nathan Drake uses the regular combat mechanics in a scripted sequence and shoots all the bad guys (and looks cool doing it). End scene.
I mean, this is a game that already takes control out of your hands to make you do certain things in an especially cinematic way (“Press Circle to Not Die!”), so why not some of the irritating shooting sequences as well?
23/02/2012 at 17:09 Lemming says:
I agree, I found the combat the worst the thing about Uncharted, but I’d argue that the solution wouldn’t be to make it skippable, it’d be to have different and better combat.
I’ve long thought Uncharted should have had Batman:AA-style brawling by way of bar fights in Indiana Jones rather than gunplay. The wave of after wave of enemies to be shot aspect was appalling compared to the cinematic blockbuster adventure aspect of the game.
23/02/2012 at 17:14 Thaewyn says:
True enough, having a better combat system would alleviate a lot of the problems. But I think that having the skippable scenes is still a valid option.
I’m not saying it should be required! I think this is something a lot of people get hung up on. I’m not saying that combat should be removed from the game: conflict is crucial to a good story! But I think if a player wants to get through the story and doesn’t feel like dealing with insta-kill headshots on the easiest difficulty (can you tell I’m still sore about some of Uncharted’s bullcrap? =p), they should at least be presented with that option, instead of being pushed into rage-quit mode.
23/02/2012 at 19:09 Blackcompany says:
Tried Uncharted. Love the narrative and the concept.
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The implementation, however…too much combat. If the other treasure hunters could hire an entire national military to help them out, why couldn’t we do the same thing?
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Also…to much “Press X to win; Press O to not die” type stuff, I agree with this. Boy do i agree.
23/02/2012 at 22:13 Lemming says:
@Blackcompany:
Not only that bit didn’t find it really weird how Drake and pals are all prime-time tv wise-cracking yet doing past-watershed style mass-murdering? It made me quite uncomfortable.
23/02/2012 at 17:03 deanb says:
I would suggest my arguments were poor as they were over the limited form of twitter. The problem with the skipping outlook is that it works on the assumption that a game is cutscene – combat- cutscene -combat-town area-boss fight-cutscene and so on. Thus it’s easy to cut out certain segments. But many times the dialogue and story will be provided through the combat and the boss fights. Meaning either the games format is to be worked into the previously mentioned structured format to make it simple to disable combat for those that want story line only. Or adding in systems that auto-play the combat for you. Both of these taking away development time for other aspects of the game. Dialogue on a mechanical level is not always free from the combat either. Normally you have “charisma” or “speech”, filled up with the XP gained through combat. In the case of DXHR I have suggested in the past the true boss fights are those with Darrow, Tong, and to a lesser extend the police officer. And normally to “win” these requires the development of praxis points to spend upon earning the augments.
There are already many alternatives for those that do not like the combat. Many games come with an easy setting, making combat trivial, while still allowing in-combat dialogue and story advancement to take place. Many gamers also record their playthroguhs providing millions of hours of LPs on youtube. I don’t much care for them, but I’ve many friends who will choose to opt to watch a game and get its story instead of purchasing it.
I just feel it’s a bit like saying “Well I want to shoot at stuff in my games”, so we end up shooting at stuff in most of our games. The video industry has bestowed us with the wonderful gift of thousands of genres, some with combat, some without, some with puzzles, some with platforming. It’s a case of choosing the titles you like than making just one mega-genre to rule over them all and make everything androgynous. I love me some RPG, but it’s grating to get RPG levlelling up and stats progression in nearly every game now.
23/02/2012 at 17:23 John Walker says:
To be clear, I wasn’t just picking on you! Lots of people said lots of things.
23/02/2012 at 17:44 deanb says:
You called me selfish :( Then not long later you RTed about skipping idiots on the net. I took it all personally. D:
Shall we agree to disagree? I would challenge you to a duel of fisticuffs, settle the issue like men. But you’d only go and skip it :D
23/02/2012 at 17:47 John Walker says:
Hehe.
Skipping idiots on the internet wasn’t aimed at you! It was at that which we’re not discussing in this thread. And while I thought your argument was selfish, I’m sure *you* are lovely.
23/02/2012 at 17:04 Anders Wrist says:
Imagine skipping the combat in Dragon Age, it would basicly be a poorly written Visual novel, set in a bland, boring fantasy world of clichés upon clichés, with lots of walking around being the only actual gameplay you’d experience. They’d have to include a suicide option in the “game” then, because that would be the only “esc” action worthy of use.
23/02/2012 at 17:24 John Walker says:
You told me, with your differing opinion!
23/02/2012 at 18:07 Anders Wrist says:
Not so much a critique of you, as of Dragon Age. I find myself often wanting to skip combat, when it’s of the horribly repetitive kind in games such as Dragon Age 2, as others have pointed out here as well.
23/02/2012 at 17:04 LTK says:
It’s all well and good to have an option to skip combat, but frankly, if there was a game of which the story held 100% of my interest, and the gameplay 0%, I’m gonna watch a youtube vid of it being played instead of paying for the bits that require my active participation.
Say, if I experienced a game’s entire story without paying, but none of the gameplay, does that make me a pirate? I think everyone will agree that a person who experiences all the gameplay without paying, but skips the story, is definitely a pirate. So how about the other way around?
23/02/2012 at 17:05 JackDandy says:
I don’t agree with this article at all.
I can’t even explain why.
Taking GAMEPLAY out of a GAME seems heretical to me, as the very basis of it all.
23/02/2012 at 17:14 Apples says:
combat is part of gameplay
gameplay is not solely combat
should i just c/p this on every comment thus far
23/02/2012 at 17:25 John Walker says:
You’ll note that RPS never uses the word “gameplay”, because it doesn’t mean anything.
23/02/2012 at 17:33 westyfield says:
Gameplay is playing the game, i.e. everything. To differentiate between graphics, sound, and gameplay is absurd.
23/02/2012 at 17:34 Unaco says:
You realise Adam used that very word in his Crusader Kings 2 WiT earlier today. His training has not been sufficiently brutal. You should lock him away (again) and force him to watch the Iron Eagle tetralogy, on repeat.
23/02/2012 at 17:36 Adam Smith says:
Z’wounds!
23/02/2012 at 17:47 frenz0rz says:
Any time I see or hear someone refer to ‘gameplay’ I cringe a litte bit. It tends to be placeholder word used by people who cannot articulate what they specifically like or dislike about a game’s mechanics.
No offense to Adam intended :)
23/02/2012 at 17:47 Jimbo says:
Most use it to refer to the interactive element/s of a game. Not that hard to understand really.
23/02/2012 at 17:49 John Walker says:
Adam will be thoroughly beaten.
23/02/2012 at 18:02 Berzee says:
This recent article has “Gameplay” in the title:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/23/game-to-close-35-more-stores-shut-gameplay-co-uk/
23/02/2012 at 17:05 Blackcompany says:
If I could skip those idiotic “boss” fights in Chapter 1 of the Witcher 2 I would do so readily enough. One takes every game mechanic Geralt uses except dodge roll and tosses it out the bloody window so I can have a scripted, God-of-War like battle with a giant octopus. I can’t kill, though – not until I hack off its damned limbs. Because heaven forbid I am able to run up one and feed the thing a bomb BEFORE I dismember it.
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The other…with a main villain…happens to early, and their idea of difficulty is neither a complex AI with strategic moves, nor the use of various tactics. Nope – he’s just a pure damage sponge who soaks up hits like a sponge with water. News flash – step away from the fracking console boxes and please, remember your roots, CDProjekt, before its too late.
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I literally was forced to stop playing the Witcher 2 because of the early boss battles and their difficulty spikes. Just not a good fast-twitch gamer. Complete waste of $30 and I am now left with the fact that I cannot buy their games ever again despite their amazing support of PC gamers.
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So yeah…if I could pay a slight penalty to skip combat now and then, I would happily do so, at least in my RPG/Narrative based games.
23/02/2012 at 17:05 Lemming says:
The Total War games have something akin to this don’t they? The ‘auto resolve’ combat option? Granted it’s not skipping gameplay for story, but it’s certainly avoiding one form of the gameplay in preference to another.
23/02/2012 at 17:56 Jimbo says:
The Total War games are more akin to a toybox though. You’re deciding you like one toy better than another, not taking a delicately handcrafted experience and deciding you know best so you’re gonna just throw half of it away.
23/02/2012 at 17:06 sockpuppetclock says:
I don’t like the idea of skipping combat OR dialogue at all, because that makes it seem more like the developers recognize that there is an intrinsic flaw that should be allowed to be skipped because it should not be there in the first place, rather than some form of a consumer’s right to pick and choose what they want out of their experience. It speaks more as bad design and flow than a smartly implemented option.
The problem can also divide people’s opinion of it, cause being able to have a shared experience that you can talk about among the community can infact be (surprise, surprise) important to the appreciation of it.
Opinions et al. If the idea ever becomes a trend there will of course be games designed with it in mind, but a game designed with that in mind. seems paradoxical, since the idea of skipping segments would be cause they’re not vital to experiencing the game, so a game filled with things designed not to be experienced completely is just… odd.
23/02/2012 at 17:06 4026 says:
While I’d normally refrain from plugging my own writing on other people’s sites, you did ask, and it has been deliberately omitted from discussion here, so… I wrote it up over here.
EDIT: Oh! I just remembered that I saw a great write-up of this over on Forbes.com earlier as well. That link might restore some karmic balance for my shameless plug.
23/02/2012 at 17:06 engion3 says:
alan wake
23/02/2012 at 17:08 Unaco says:
Destructoid have had a couple decent pieces on it over the last few days. Google ‘destructoid’ ‘Hepler’, and you should get them, or just her name for other articles. Probably all we should say here though. If you reply & let me know you’ve read this and we can edit both our posts so this conversation never happened.
23/02/2012 at 17:08 wccrawford says:
What’s even funnier is that we’ve been skipping the combat for YEARS already. With cheat codes. There are a lot of games that I’ve cheated on to get strong and not have to grind ad nauseum just to continue the story. And there are plenty of games that I kept playing JUST for the story.
I suspect this is why so many people get their panties in a wad about cheats, too. Not that I understand it, mind. It’s purely optional, yet they take it as a personal affront.
23/02/2012 at 17:17 Thaewyn says:
Well said, sir!
To be honest, I hadn’t considered this angle when writing my comment, but it is a very valid point. I would definitely like to have this kind of option return (because it was purely optional, nobody was forcing your hand in either direction).
23/02/2012 at 17:08 Gadriel says:
My issue isn’t with people having the option to skip combat. My problem is with what that option would do to game design. Game budgets get tighter and tighter with every step forward in technology, if there’s a standard of “allow skippable dialogue AND skippable combat” (You can’t say one or the other, that wouldn’t satisfy everyone.) that will mean less budget will be put toward those things. As it is narrative in video games suffers because it’s an aspect of games that not every customer cares about. Lots of people DO already skip dialogue and developers/publishers have data on just how many and just how much they can cut corners on it and get away with it. What happens when both are skippable? What isn’t skippable? Are you left with a series of cinematics after mashing escape a bunch of times?
Even if you don’t accept that level of tinfoil-hattery, having the option will force designers to more harshly partition story and action. Right now, they can smatter a little story into action sequences. If those action sequences are skippable, it makes more sense to keep all the story to the skippable dialogue sequences. You end up with every game being unexplained, nonsensical action or a virtual novel or both if you’re the lunatic who doesn’t skip anything.
Even for us lunatics, what sort of game would we have? It would be nigh impossible to make it even as much of a unified experience as DA. Stuff happened in dungeons. Your decisions in combat situations influenced story. The only way this could continue in a combat-skippable world is if they designed games with all sorts of redundancy, and we know that wouldn’t fly with publishers.
I think the better thing to ask for is more varied games. More narrative-heavy games to satisfy those with a taste for it. More narrative-less games of all genres to satisfy those who only want action. More games that seamlessly blend the two. Trying to turn every game into some generalised mess to please every single possible customer is already what’s turning this industry to shit.
23/02/2012 at 19:13 Blackcompany says:
This individual has a valid point. Devs are skimping on quality enough as is these days. No sense encouraging the practice further. What we need is better combat in games where combat makes sense and better story and dialogue in, well…everything.
24/02/2012 at 08:09 enobayram says:
I’m not pro-skippable combat, but I don’t agree with this argument. You could have story in the combat, but when you skip it, it turns into a cutscene that tells the story, taking place during the combat. My problem with it, is that it will make the games even more linear. It can’t get any worse than how most of them are today, but it sure clogs the way back.
23/02/2012 at 17:08 Doctor Professor says:
This reminds me of the response when Alone in the Dark 2008 was revealed to have chapter skip. It also reminds me of the response when it was announced that Mega Man 10 would have an easy mode.
To me, the only way it makes sense is if it’s all about signaling status. The only reason I see to care about other people having the choice to experience your medium in a different way than you is if you’re concerned about what the existence of the choice does for your cred. Combat is seen as the difficult part of many games (at least compared to dialog), so allowing players to skip it means you don’t have to be as skilled or elite to beat the game. And that means you can’t just point to a list of conquered games to prove you’re hardcore. So to people for whom this is an important part of their identity, the presence of such a choice is a threat.
(I wrote a full essay on this subject here if you’re interested.)
23/02/2012 at 17:09 Marinetastic says:
I agree with the sentiment that it’s up to the player to skip what they don’t enjoy, but I’d think it’s more indicative of there not being the right kind of games for those like Hepler. Why not give us a game based on Game of Thrones (just because series two soon :D ) but you have to bribe, intimidate and seduce your way up through the court instead of killing ten rats to save them?
23/02/2012 at 17:10 Ultra-Humanite says:
There has always been a significant subset of the human population that derives some amount of pleasure or satisfaction from making other people miserable, even though it has little effect on them or isn’t even really their business anyway. Gay marriage is still largely illegal is it not? Drug control laws are in every country, the population of people who mind their own business is far smaller than the population of people who want to impose their morality on you.
23/02/2012 at 17:11 JauntyAngle says:
Lots of strategy games let you skip combat: The Total War series and Master of Orion II come to mind. I think Master of Magic had an auto combat button, but I don’t remember if it worked well or not. I bet skipping combat would work just fine in RPGs with repetitive or easy battles.
Final Fantasy XIII had a button that let you skip the entire game (the eject button.). I used it and that improved the experience immensely.
23/02/2012 at 17:11 Gpig says:
“To argue that removing the requirement to play all the combat in a game is to render the experience to being equivalent to that of a film is to completely miss the nuance of gaming. ”
You’re the one missing the nuance of gaming here. I’d be very surprised if you enjoyed a Bioware game by simply skipping the combat. It’s one of those things like saving all of those salty, brown gardettos for last or “wouldn’t it be great if we just fucked all day?” It sounds terrific, I only eat the gardettos for those salty, brown pieces and I only see the world as a brittle shell over a twitching mass of sexual longings. Until I try it. Without the pacing of the shitty part of the gardettos I realize that the salty, brown pieces are too salty and only work as a counterpoint to the rest of the bag. I don’t know what fucking all day would be like but it sounds awesome.
You’re missing the nuance of pacing, contrast, and balance. Asking for the game to be completely balanced in one direction is silly. Yes, you can skip cut scenes, but that is only because Bioware views it as unimportant. They should have more confidence in their dialogue and make it unskippable, not the other way around. Games, especially console games, are about restriction more than they are about openness. You can’t noclip in a console game and you can’t skip the combat, because the developer is interested in you experiencing a game in the way they think is optimal. They are exercising their authorial control.
As a counterpoint to your article I point you to this one: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/01/14/embrace-the-dark-gamma-screen-gratitude/
23/02/2012 at 17:28 John Walker says:
Since I never at any point suggest that I’d want to skip all the combat in a game, your reply is confusing me.
23/02/2012 at 17:12 DemonicFerret says:
This seems like a perfectly reasonable idea. Obviously, it would only work for some types of games – Dragon Age is certainly a good example, but imagine if someone wanted to skip the combat in something like Dark Souls? There’s no game left.
I question how much entertainment even the most devoted narrative fanatic would actually get out of such an arrangement, though. Combat (and more importantly, failing at combat and having to reload) serves an important function in spacing out the story segments in games like Dragon Age. If you skipped all the combat, would there really be enough story left to feel like a full game? You’d render a 50+ hour extravaganza down into a 5 hour cutscene. Doesn’t seem worth the $60.
Of course, if that’s what people want, more power to them – but for me at least, a lot of my enjoyment of the story comes from having EARNED it somehow, typically through combat. I remember the segment of Dragon Age 1 where you’re supposed to get your butt kicked and be arrested, but if you actually manage to defeat the overwhelming odds against you, you can avoid jail. That was an excellent experience when I pulled it off, because I had WORKED for it. Someone who skipped the combat would miss out on that, and I think their enjoyment of the story would suffer for it.
23/02/2012 at 17:12 V. Profane says:
I’d say we already have a decent compromise: difficulty settings. In fact games like DX:HR already describe difficulty in these terms. Easy = concentrate on the plot, normal = balance of both, hard = for combat fans.
23/02/2012 at 17:13 President Weasel says:
“believing that other people playing differently is an affront to you, is mystifying” – and yet I cannot help being deeply bothered when my friend reads one chapter of a book, skips to the last few pages to find out how it ends, and then goes back to fill in the middle bits. She’s reading it wrong!
It’s not as though she’s giving me spoilers or stopping me from reading it the proper way, but somehow I cannot help but be affronted.
24/02/2012 at 05:06 Acorino says:
I agree.
23/02/2012 at 17:14 deadly.by.design says:
Press start.
*skip*
“I’m sorry, your princess is in another castle.”
It just doesn’t seem the same.
23/02/2012 at 17:16 Jinnigan says:
Jennifer Hepler’s desire to skip the combat part of the game (and the ability to skip dialogue, too) reflects a weird schism in the development of video games: that the gameplay and the writing are separate entities. Pretty much every game suffers from this, but for me it was particularly bad in Starcraft II and Dragon Age II. I’m a pretty good Starcraft II player so I would go through these missions losing very few units, playing very well, getting the achievements that make you go above and beyond the normal objectives… and then I’d be rewarded with a cutscene that’s all, “DAMMIT RAYNOR, YOU’RE A DRUNKARD AND A COWARD.” In Dragon Age II, even in the first boss fight you’re feeling awesome and mashing buttons and really enjoying the button-awesome connection… and then you’d be rewarded with a “sad” scene about how your sibling was killed during the ‘fight’ (but really just during a cutscene with the same setting)?? Sorry but the emotional demands of the cutscene were absolutely not the emotions I was feeling while actually playing the goddamn game.
I haven’t played many games that combine the two well, Shadow of the Colossus is the first game off the top of my head in which the setting and tone of the game is sad and dramatic, and you feel that while you’re playing too. Killing a Colossus takes a lot of coordination and excitement, yes, but all against a backdrop of weird apocalypse and doomed worlds.
I don’t think that dialogue should be skippable or gameplay skippable; I just wish the two would complement each other more than fight.
23/02/2012 at 18:47 President Weasel says:
This is a post I would +1, should such a system exist on RPS (I am glad it doesn’t), however I do often find myself wanting to skip dialogue. Perhaps I wouldn’t if it were better written, but I do quite often get bored partway through yet another generic cutscene and decide I’ll just follow the map marker and read the objective text instead of wasting more time watching clunky dialogue.
24/02/2012 at 08:18 enobayram says:
I agree completely, I have a point to make though. If they’ll make dialogue unskippable, they should make sure that I see it only once. Sometimes, unskippable dialogue in the beginning of a hard battle that you repeat many times is a fatal combo.
23/02/2012 at 17:16 Hakkesshu says:
I agree in principle, but I feel like it could negatively impact game design in general. This might be a doomsaying scenario, but it has happened before.
“Games are too long! People don’t finish them,” says the industry. “Make them shorter and more linear,” says the game developer.
“Games are too hard and complex, unsuitable for a wide audience,” says the industry. “Make them easier and streamline every system,” says the game developer.
“People should be able to skip combat,” says the industry. “Put less effort into combat design,” says the game developer.
I generally think that games as a whole could benefit from less focus on gratuitous action, but game developers should be confident enough in their design that making parts of it skippable should be the absolute final solution. Note that, again, I’m not against giving players more choice, but I fear that some devs would take this as an indicator that they shouldn’t spend resources on combat design if people can just skip it. Where’s the incentive?
That might be an overly cynical perspective, but I might also just be fearing that the wider audience don’t really want action or combat in their games and as such devs, in a typical wide appeal to the mass market, will collectively go “well, sod it then!”
Though maybe a world full of adventure games wouldn’t be so bad after all…
Eh, ultimately I am in favour of the option to skip, but I still think someone should come up with a better solution.
23/02/2012 at 17:19 Eukatheude says:
Heck yeah! I’m playing Torment right now, i wish i could skip all the combat and focus on the dialogue.
24/02/2012 at 05:14 Acorino says:
Yeah…Torment was a great achievement in many ways, in terms of story and player choice, but as a game it was pretty broken in many ways. And the combat felt often more like an unnecessary hindrance than like an organic part of the story.
23/02/2012 at 17:20 Belmondo says:
When people talk about skipping over dialog, they are talking about skipping past the voice acting or walls of text. They AREN’T talking about skipping over the moments where you have to make a dialog choice, the actual gameplay of dialog. Skipping combat would be the equivalent of skipping the dialog choices, and I don’t know of any game that allows you to do this. (Some games have dialog where you can choose to end the dialog early, without choosing the other options first. Technically, you aren’t skipping the dialog, just choosing to end it early. It would be the same as playing on easy difficulty in order to make the combat go by faster.)
23/02/2012 at 17:20 Diogo Ribeiro says:
But it’s also how videogame design is applied. Which is to say, yes, I’m aware the argument was made against gamers who try to dictate how other gamers should play, but we accept it just as well when designers do the same. It’s their game after all. We either play by their rules or don’t. Disregarding the whole treatment towards Hepler (in the sense I’d spit like a cursing gipsy at those that did it in person, but I’m not talking at lenght about it in this case), would we be more or less open to this if designers were just as vocal (but less preteen shitheads) than gamers determined to do the same?
Regardless, skipping combat is a curious thing, because it’s been around for ages. The difference being it’s been applied in play mechanics, not ultra gigantor options SKIP THE SWORD CLANGING. Ultima Underworld, Deus Ex, SysShock and common day STALKER, Bioshock – rife with moments where you could not avoid combat. Even Bioware RPGs do this through stealth, the odd choice or dialogue option. And the Ys series, while jRPGs in nature with some PC ports, have used a system where combat is handled automatically – bump into an enemy in the overworld, and the victor is determined through hidden maths and probabilities.
I guess the issue, while mined by the absolutely revulsive actions of these human caricatures, could be better seen as an affront to what they perceive is important in RPGs in general (and to that, we’d have to open another can o’worms about whether combat being really necessary or not), and Bio’s RPGs in particular. Personally, I don’t want to skip combat – what I want to skip are the cutscenes that predate combat. I stopped playing Dragon Age for several reasons, chief among them the same problem that was rampant in KotOR: no matter how much I plan, position and buff my party members, the game forces everyone into the same goddamn spots, the same goddamn poses, the same goddamn rooms for EXPOSITION. Whatever tactics I come up with are frustrated because the designers think it’s more important for me to have SERIOUS WORDS FACE TO FACE with hobgoblins or mummies or revenants or the sith that, by virtue of being sith, is obviously going to try and kill me. As politely as I can at this time of day, **** that. Take your teenage “cinematic” aspirations to the desert with a .48 in your pocket and a shovel in your trunk, please.
EDIT: said Helen instead of Hepler, fixed.
23/02/2012 at 17:20 apocraphyn says:
In many games, you can skip combat via cheat codes. In others you can activate an “Easy Mode” and have laughably easy combat challenges where you’d have to be mentally challenged in order to lose. In others, you can skip the challenging parts of the gameplay altogether.
I’ve recently been playing the game “Catherine” on the PS3. I’ve noticed that, if one pauses during the puzzle levels, you get the option to “Skip” the puzzle, (though it’s greyed out for me – it’s a feature available only to those who play the game on Easy Mode). This defeats one of the major aspects of the game, so it seems a little counter-intuitive to me…but at the same time, some of the puzzles are infuriatingly difficult, so I can see why the option is there.
I don’t tend to skip conversations in games, but then, you can’t truly “win” at a conversation unless you’re playing a truly good game. If there’s a chance of winning or losing, having an automatic “win” button is equivocal to cheating for me and seems fairly detrimental to the whole game experience. I would not want to be able to skip the conversation with The Master in Fallout 1 and instantly persuade him to kill himself, just as much as I would not want to skip the fight and instantly kill him if I couldn’t persuade him, either.
23/02/2012 at 17:22 SiHy_ says:
Can’t say it bothered me in LA Noire. I chose not to skip the action bits but I can see why some people would. Plus, peaceful mode in Minecraft is always popular.
When a games main mechanic isn’t based around combat then giving the option to skip it definitely works. However, with most mainstream games being so heavily reliant on their shooty-shooty-bang-bang or swordy-swordy-stab-stab, I’d argue that if a game was tieing it’s narrative into the gameplay properly then skipping the combat would leave massive gaps in the story. Like how did I get from the outside of this dungeon to a bar in this town half-a-mile away? These parts would need filling in somehow and I’m sure publishers would argue that there aren’t enough people who would use this feature to spend time warrant creating these filler bits.
23/02/2012 at 17:22 misterT0AST says:
asking for the option to skip battles doesn’t mean just adding a command to give you some default amount of experience and just move on.
It means wanting an entire game solely based on decision making. A whole new kind of game, where battles are solved in a new, unheard of way: “press 1 to keep shooting, 2 to charge head on, 3 to retreat”.
Such a system would now be absolutely necessary, or else the battles don’t even have a reason to be there: my young cousin would play on “very hard” difficulty, try a challenging fight a couple times, then press Esc. It’s like asking for a God Mode button in every game. If you don’t press it, it wouldn’t affect you, but then again it is there teasing you with its presence. And most consumers, most gamers (young teenagers) don’t have the willpower, the patience to ignore it for 9 hours of gameplay. Then there’s the problem of important, fun new fights, with new mechanics introduced, for example boss battles. Would you be happy to see the cutscene with the final boss introducing himself, and then press Esc and see the credits? A bit anticlimactic. I know what you’re thinking, maybe the last boss could be defeated in another way, speaking to him, or making choices in a dialogue box. But even that has its problems: you finish in a way you didn’t want to, you load the game, you start the choices again. Trial and error can be fun in fights, but when it comes to pressing buttons it’s just boring. Maybe you’d want the player to be satisfied with whatever the outcome of his choices is. But then you’d have a game without death, without failure, branching over and over in a huge quantity of different situations. The pace of the game would be completely broken in FIGHT-no fight-FIGHT-no fight sequences.
The idea of skippable fights is interesting, but it’s very very difficult to implment.
It would interfere with the fluidity of the storytelling.
It would interfere with the amount of content for the branching paths.
It would interfere with the way death and failure are conceived in gaming.
It would interfere with what gamers can and can’t endure, can and can’t wait for.
It’s not a “simple additional feature”. You’re asking the developers to re-think the whole game.
23/02/2012 at 18:04 Berzee says:
No I really think he just wants a button to insta-kill any enemy he’s tired of fighting with; and that’s quite alright and simple to implement.
23/02/2012 at 17:22 Kilometrik says:
I believe games are not entertainment. I believe they are an experience. The stressful, annoying, horrorful, hateful or whatever other adjective you use to describe them are equally as important as the other parts. They are not pleasure machines. Yes, i can skip parts of a book and a movie, and a song. I cannot skip parts of a painting can i? Or parts of an installation. Or parts of a Theater Play. Or parts of an Opera. Or parts of a Concept art Piece. So why videogames should be like Movies, Songs or Books? If i had skipped the “unenjoyable parts” of X-Com, i would have skipped THE WHOLE GAME ALTOGETHER. The emotions the gameplay made me felt were so STRONG that none could be clasiffied as enjoyment or as pleasure.
Yes, you have the right to demand skippable combat in your pleasure machines. The problem is that games that have skippable combat are made with an aesthetic design philosophy modelled around the concept of paying for pleasure. And that, sir, is what’s killing videogames. I don’t mostly play or even LIKE escapist videogames made to pleasure the audience. I do not believe in unearned rewards. So **** this article and all it’s unintelligent, marketing arguments. The more videogames are made with skippable combat, the more i will not like them.
23/02/2012 at 18:00 Diogo Ribeiro says:
“If I had skipped”
But you didn’t. And that was your prerogative, and it influenced your experience. Which doesn’t mean your experience is any less valid than someone who did, nor would your experience be ruined by a gamer who did it on his own version of the game.
23/02/2012 at 18:09 Kilometrik says:
Except that the experience of the people that skip parts of the games is not really an experience. It’s just pleasure. An experience is not something you live through. An experience, as it’s sister word experiment, is something in which the outcome isn’t certain. An event in which your self is subjected to forces beyond it’s control. You aren’t certain inf you will remain the same. Like it’s sister word, experiment, an experience isn’t one if you don’t come out different. More experienced. Also, you are forgetting the central part of my argument, in which it means that the more games with easily skippable content will mean more games made purely for enjoyment. Which means games i don’t like.
23/02/2012 at 18:19 Berzee says:
Ahh, so you’re against skippable dialogue and cutscenes.
23/02/2012 at 18:32 Kilometrik says:
YES, YES I AM!. If you find the dialogue and cutscenes so BAD you feel the need to SKIP THEM. Then, please, do have some standards. Don’t even buy the ****** piece of ***** game. I don’t like skippable content. It reduces games to what’s and what’s not FUNZ instead of what’s and what’s not meaningful. It creates an excuse for bad writing and bad game design. I lowers people’s standards. And four your information? BOOKS and MOVIES can completely lock you out of it’s content too. Try reading Gravity’s Rainbow skipping content or not really paying attention and you won’t get a THING. Try Watching Serial Experiments Lain without paying attention to everything. Try watching El Topo or Any David Lynch film without paying attention to detail and going beyond what’s happening, looking for themes. You will only get a bunch of good pictures.
And yes, i’m worked up and angry because i don’t like this nihilist times in which we live in. Nietzche once said something like that the death of god (nihilism) is necessary, but we need to overcome that stage and create our own values. It seems mankind is currently stuck at the phase in which nothing matters beyond pleasure and FUNZ instead of creating new values. And in the end, it all boils down to the fact that the more stupid games made for pleasure and FUNZ the less games i’m going to get REALLY engaged in (notice how i said engaged, i didn’t said have fun or enjoy).
EDIT: The for your information is directed towards the dude who wrote the article.
23/02/2012 at 18:32 Diogo Ribeiro says:
You’re assuming skipping a part of a game means skipping all relative parts of a game. I can have pleasure in skipping combat but pleasure in not skipping dialogue, pleasure in skipping cutscenes and not in skipping inventory management, etc. All you’re doing is condescending towards those that don’t have the same experience as you – and it still very much is an experience, if the player, in the end, has actually played something.
I’m not skipping the central part of your argument. It’s just that you are not the central part of the argument re: skipping combat. If you want to displace this into an argument about yourself, though, that’s something else entirely.
23/02/2012 at 18:35 Diogo Ribeiro says:
“It creates an excuse for bad writing and bad game design. ”
Oh trust me, the last thing the industry needs are excuses for that. Skippable content may or may not be such an excuse, but it isn’t the first and it certainly won’t be the last.
23/02/2012 at 19:07 Kilometrik says:
See, you are still not getting it.
“You’re assuming skipping a part of a game means skipping all relative parts of a game. I can have pleasure in skipping combat but pleasure in not skipping dialogue, pleasure in skipping cutscenes and not in skipping inventory management, etc.”
First I’m not talking about skipping combat. I’m talking about skipping content in general. Second you are still using the word “pleasure” liberally, when i’m against the concept of games being about pleasure and FUNZ. You SHOULD have moments of intense pain, real grief, absolute boredom and complete suffering along thos pleasurable moments. I’ll cite a phrase form a gaming criticism website i usually read: “I can’t even tell you if I “like” this game or not. I’ve played it a lot. I played one finger style, two finger style. I’ve obliterated thousands of alien freaks. But do you “like” your Aikido sensei, even though he flattens your sorry ass, with perfect style, with perfect efficiency, utterly without visible effort? The idea that you must choose between loving a challenge and hating it is absurd. That’s what a challenge is, emotionally: narcissism and self-hatred, fear and courage, anger and calm.” (see, there’s a whole semiotic system at work in a good, CHALLENGING game. Oppsite meaningful units interacting together. More on that later)
That is a statement about the nature of challenge. About the nature of good videogames. I might even be dared to say “art videogames” But i’m not feeling so pretentious today. Now, while challenge is only PART of what makes an experience such. Because once you have expreinced a good challenge in a videogame, you afterwards come more skilled, more thoughtful on the game mechanics. Removing all parts that are not pleasurable or fun in a videogame would ammount to removing “challenge” as a whole. Because there would be a lot of people who consider something as challenge not “fun”. I say **** them.
A semiotic code. A system of signs and meanings, according to Umberto Eco and Groupe Miu, must have an opposite semanting unit to everyother one for it to make sense and be understandable. Games, as a whole, are a form of a semiotic code. A language, so to speak. THey have semanting units on the plane of Means and Meanings. Good game design comes when the code is complete. When it’s a well thought out code. When every action has a meaning and for every action that has a meaning, there is an opposite one that has an opposite meaning. Pleasure should be found along displeasure and along pain for a game’s semiotic system to make sense and, with time, to be meaningful in itself as a system. A game does not NEED to be meaninful. BUt that’s the way i like my games. Pleasure does not need to be meaningful either. BUt as this article is defining games as pleasure machines. Then it’s also about what it’s writer thinks games are (or should be).
He is defending the abillity to skip content in games because those contents are not pleasurable to him. But there are other tipes of games. Games that don’t try to be pleasurable. Games that don’t work as an experience if you only feel pleasure while playing them. Like X-Com, like Dark Souls, like ANY Rougelike. Sure, there are pleasurable parts. But those are meaningless if they are the only parts experienced during gameplay. Well, i’m defending the fact that there are different aesthetic points of view toward what makes a game good and in my eyes a game with easily skippable content of any kind is a bad game. So yeah i hate what Jennifer Helper said, because she is advocating something i consider bad game design. A semiotic system that makes sense is not one with only one sign and one meaning. A game in which the only meaning of my actions is to have pleasure is not a good game. Skipping all the parts that are not fun or pleasurable is eliminating all semantic units from a system which need them in order to make sense. Also, remember, i’m arguing an article based around the writer’s opinion with my own opinion.
23/02/2012 at 20:18 Skabooga says:
Sometimes, experiencing less of a work means you gain more from it. It is no bad thing that people have options to approach a work in the manner in which they get the greatest experience from it. (By experience I do not mean what you would refer to as pleasure.)
23/02/2012 at 21:15 Diogo Ribeiro says:
@Kilometrik:
That site is Action Button net, which I adore immensely, and the quote is Adam “Canabalt”‘s review of ZiGGURAT, by Tim Rogers, for iOS, which I helped translate to portuguese. Buy it the heck now at the official site! Disclaimer: I did it for free, so I’m not supporting myself with this message. Now that the pleasantries have been dispensed with…
Empathically, I agree with you; if you look to a page or two back on this very article, I say so myself: personally, I don’t want to skip combat. At best I’d like to remove pre-combat cutscenes, which skew challenge by removing all of my carefully planned ambushes or tactical formations face to face with whatever it is I’m trying to fight. 10 minutes of planning reduced to a close-up of my party leader talking serious business with an ork, for me, isn’t pleasurable. It’s grueling, specially when poorly written and acted. In this case, I’d argue it’s a contrived sort of challenge, because at once the game is letting me (or giving me the illusion of being able to) plan my attack, then forcing me to disregard it for a “in your face” (almost literally) challenge. As I also said, or at least think it was implicit, I prefer “skipping” combat by more natural, insofar as in-game context, means: a dialogue choice, a stealth route, etc. The only thing these cutscenes add to my experience are frustration – a fine design goal on its own. But I’d accept and even welcome this frustration if it was part of a relationship between play mechanics and a challenge. As such, it’s artificial. It’s an anti-game construct, if you will, shoved into a game. X-Com is an example: frustration at losing highly trained soldiers at the hands of late game aliens is something I welcome. Because it’s a part of the game.
On the other hand, I have no issue against, say, SMBWii’s “rescue” feature, insofar as I don’t use it. Yes, we can assume and/or detest what this might say re: the common or average gamer (whatever that means) and the beginner. SMB sold millions while not giving an inch to people new to games; SMGalaxy, on the other hand, is constantly reminding me to do the only thing I can do, and everything in the game is a sign post of this design preocupation. You can’t skip this molly coddling, which annoys me. To wit, I think presenting a body of work which allows its users to “skip” important parts of it is to lessen its value, somewhat akin to what Metacritic does – separating the critic from the criticism for the consumer’s benefit, “freeing” him or her from any appreciation beyond an arbitrary numerical value (in that sense, the site is a success).
But in the grand scheme of things, if I’m to criticize an option to skip combat, I might as well criticize SMB for warp pipes, underground pipes that let me avoid parts of the main levels’ path, or even criticize X-Com for letting me fast forward time. While not the exact same core concept, these too allow me to circumvent “the semiotic code”, if not outright letting me bypass considerable portions. For what “meaning” is there when I jump from World 1 to World 4? What of the dread that lies in the wait for the next alien move in X-Com if I dispense with that very waiting?
But I also disagree that “a game in which the only meaning of my actions is to have pleasure is not a good game”. Which is to say, I can’t disagree much with something that’s obviously ingrained into your being. I just don’t roll that way. Which is another way to say, I don’t have any issue whatsoever with how you want games to be, or the grounds on which you judge them. I could say how I judge them, but I’m not the topic, and besides, all that would accomplish would be to state the obvious re: different people looking at games in different ways. Besides, whatever stance I have on videogames is a work in progress. I don’t agree videogames are *nothing but* “pleasure machines”; but I agree some can certainly be.
Another way to look at this is that Tetris is a game heavy with psychology – for what other reason a game people know they might never win is one of the most played ever? – and a game heavy with pleasure. I can play for five minutes and spend all of those counting the seconds to my doom, or I can spend an hour just enthralled with something as simple as the visual effects of a cleared line, the music, the score going up. All those contribute to what Tetris is. But you know, sometimes I have to turn the sound off. Sometimes I don’t even think about the score. Whatever I do in those moments, whatever I may be ignoring in its full semiotics, I still feel like I’m playing Tetris and not missing a thing. We could argue that the reason I feel I’m not missing a thing is because I already experienced the whole thing. Which may be true. But if I already did, I find myself free to re-experience it as I wish. Maybe this is the “pleasurable” aspect for me, just replaying parts of the experience. Sometimes these include both pleasure and pain (a common example would be the cycle of tension and release in a challenging boss encounter), but are still, in essence, more pleasurable. And ind a sense, it’s the meaning of these moments that I care about, that stick after the entire experience.
Incidentally, you remind me of Alex Kierkegaard on Insomnia.ac, and I conclude this post with an emoticon based on that possibility :/
23/02/2012 at 22:20 jrodman says:
@Kilometrik: I view any significant sense of challenge from my games as a defect. I do not want that experience in my games.
What now?
—
The point is your view on how you want some games to work is valid, but it’s certainly not universal, nor can it be.
23/02/2012 at 22:21 Kilometrik says:
@ Diogo Ribeiro:
I don’t own any iOS system. And as much as I’m interested in buying Ziggurat, I’m piss poor right now for an iOS :(
And i see you’ve got what i was trying to say.
We agree with a couple of points. And i admit that i’ve ceratinly had fun with games designed to be fun first and foremost (Most Clover Studio and Platinum games are like that). However, those games are fun in an incredibly twisted way, because usually they are hard as balls >_>. THey are fun, and the objective to them is to have fun, but they have a completely designed and complete “semiotic code”. Each and every action has a consecuence and an opposite action with an opposite consequence. I would admit i’d preffer thos games to be less about fun and escapism and being “badass”, but i love them. I also love the Metal Gear Series, because those games lack any structure and code. They are completely postmodern games that break all the design rules in the book without any care in the world. Like Naked lunch or the aforementioned Gravity Rainbow. That’s also a valuable experience. I’m not that uptight. It just infuriates me (as you can see) that people are able to say stuff like that without ANY real thought about game design and what makes a good game GOOD (to them, at least) beside something as instinctive and subjective as FUN.
And now to answer THIS:
“But in the grand scheme of things, if I’m to criticize an option to skip combat, I might as well criticize SMB for warp pipes, underground pipes that let me avoid parts of the main levels’ path, or even criticize X-Com for letting me fast forward time. While not the exact same core concept, these too allow me to circumvent “the semiotic code”, if not outright letting me bypass considerable portions. For what “meaning” is there when I jump from World 1 to World 4? What of the dread that lies in the wait for the next alien move in X-Com if I dispense with that very waiting?”
I think that in certain points of my long and angry rant i said “easy skippable content”. I don’t doubt that I should have said that more consistently. There can be a hard skippable content. There can be an exchange. “I make the game harder/longer/stupide/shorter BUT i can skip this part” (Like making a full stealth build in an RPG can). X-Com is not a perfect game, for sure it has some flaws. THe default speed of time should have been something mor accurate to the flow of the game rather than choose your own speed, for example. An argument can be made that speeding up time can make catching UFOs on the run with interceptors harder, however it’s to strained out and contrived as an actual disadvantage.
I hope you end up reading this. Also, until just recently (actually, until i read your post >_>) i didn’t even knew about Insomnia.ca. So i don’t know how to feel about your comparison.
23/02/2012 at 22:25 Kilometrik says:
@ jrodman:
I have nothing against it. You gave no arguments for or against it. For all i know you can have a perfectly thought out response to that. CHallenge (there can be a bad challenge too) is just one of the many semiotic systems a game can have. THere are other ways to make a well thought out structure within a game Brah >_>
23/02/2012 at 23:25 jrodman says:
Well your central tenet is that games should be for depth of and varied experience, not for pleasure.
That seems kind of … on its face obviously wrong to me. I’m not even sure how to deconstruct it. I think the kind of thing you are arguing for is valuable and I love games like that, but I see no reason at all that you present or that I can come up with that such a structure is preferred over lightweight “for funs” that drops all of that in favor of fluff.
In short your “is killing videogames” rings entirely hollow to me, and I think it’s just wrong. I see no argument presented that supports the assertion, I just see a very well articulated and interesting assertion.
—–
I guess I had another response was that some of the ‘profound experiences’ that you’re shooting for here are likely to actually make the games inaccessible, or not work for significant percentages of the audience.
For a painting, that seems fine. The audience is no poorer.
For a game where people may pay in at 60 bucks, that seems pretty obnoxious, and I don’t really think I’d stand for it.
23/02/2012 at 23:50 Kilometrik says:
@ jrodman:
Well, yes, it’s not an actual deductive argument. is more of a subjective argument. I present to you parts of the standards i use to judge games and how they clash with the arguments presented in that article (this is the important part, in which i think the writer is being, for the lack of a better word, kind of dumb) in which the writer is arguing he can’t understand why someone would feel offended at a game writer arguing what she thinks would be good,while i think it would be horrible as all **** because the games that are made with that design philosophy are the games i tend to enjoy less. I have many more arguments about how i THINK Videogames should be, but it all falls on what i think is engaging. I never said that all videogames should be like that, it’s just what i find engaging whithin the medium. As for how semiotic systems work. I point to you the books “Signs” by Umberto Eco and “Images Rhetoric” by Groupe Miu or even easiers “Semiotics Manual” by Jean Klinkenberg.
I just find that semiotic studies can be applied easily to games as much as publicity and movies and the games i’ve often enjoyed the most have had strong systems or anarchic, rule free systems.
23/02/2012 at 17:24 Beelzebud says:
I’m not in the Kool Kid’s Klub so I haven’t seen any of the recent nonsense going on reddit.
However this topic resonates with me, because I recently played Alan Wake, and really wished I could have chosen to skip much of that “combat”. I liked the story, setting, and bits of the combat, but it got far too repetitive to hold my interest. I would love a Skip Combat option on certain games.
24/02/2012 at 05:23 Acorino says:
I read that a lot regarding Alan Wake and the combat.
The question is why all the combat is there in the first place if no one is interested in it. The game is getting in the way of the game again…
23/02/2012 at 17:24 enobayram says:
Since they’re both skippable by pressing ‘Esc’, you run the risk of finishing the game inadvertently by dropping an object on that key and going to take a leak… Seriously though, skippable combat is like a “cheat” button sitting in the middle of the screen. So the option should be to remove it completely while you’re installing the game. Besides, the easy game mode is usually easy enough if you just want to see the story. There is also always the youtube videos as the last resort to see the end of the game.
23/02/2012 at 17:27 DBones says:
I think instead of offering skippable gameplay, game developers should be more focused on catering their gameplay to everyone. Some players skip story parts because they’re uninteresting or the player does not have time to go through the entire conversation, but the desire to skip gameplay os usually do to broken game mechanics, extreme difficulty, or repeated scenarios. The former complaint is due to personal preference while the latter complaint is due to bad game design.
23/02/2012 at 17:27 The Snee says:
This might seem like an odd title to reference, (since the combat IS the majority of the game), but Supreme Commander: Forge Alliance does give you the options to skip missions. If you fail one, you can simply click next mission and continue, still getting all the story briefings and such.
This isn’t exactly skipping combat and such, but I can certainly see the appeal. Dragon age is a great example, as I got stuck in a position where I couldn’t win fights easily without grinding for gold in sidemissions, and just wanted to continue with the main plot. Would I have skipped the combat though? Probably not. I would have felt like I had tainted it. This story of a band of heroes overcoming all obstacles to save the world wouldn’t really have worked so well if they didn’t, you know, overcome the obstacles.
This is why I love adaptive difficulty. Die in one place? The game gives you a little more health for the next attempt, or weakens enemy attacks. I’ve seen few games do it as well as Sin Episodes.
24/02/2012 at 05:24 Acorino says:
Crimson Skies did the same as Supreme Commander.
23/02/2012 at 17:27 ScubaMonster says:
I don’t think this bothers me. It’s not any different than Ninja Gaiden or God of War (*gasp* consoles!) asking if you want a lower difficulty after you die so many times. Just don’t do it.
That being said, if you can’t be bothered to play a game, maybe games aren’t for you. Unless the game is so exclusively focused on story, I don’t see the point in skipping combat.
23/02/2012 at 17:28 InternetBatman says:
I want to agree with this article. I put Dragon Age 2 on easy mode because the combat was so skippable. However, it seems like the argument to skip the combat is more creating an industry-wide failsafe for bad games or improperly designed games rather than it makes good games better.
A game should let you skip combat by design. If you don’t want to fight, play a rogue, or weight your skills towards dialog. The problem in Deus Ex wasn’t that you couldn’t skip through combat with the bosses, it was that you had to fight them in the first place. Mass Effect had the same problem with its final boss. Alpha Protocol had this problem in spades.
I don’t believe that a game should let you just skip playing it. Combat and dialog should be so interwoven that it doesn’t feel like they’re separate entities. They should be part of the same game. Arguing otherwise does run the risk of arguing that games should be more cinematic, and that we should be more passive consumers of content like filmgoers instead of creators of our own experience.
23/02/2012 at 17:29 Lotus says:
Yeah, having the option to skip the game to the end its fine guys, implement that in your games bioware, maybe will expand to other devs.
Kill me now.
23/02/2012 at 17:33 DickSocrates says:
I attempted to play Mass Effect 1 but hated the combat (and what would be referred to in a better game as ‘evel design’) so much I felt like giving up. I then used a cheat to get infinite health, but after labouring through for a few more hours of utterly dull, boiler plate scifi, I stopped playing altogether.
However, the point of a game is to play it. The point of a movie is to watch it. Skipping combat makes no sense at all in a game, it’s a foolish suggestion. It’s no longer a game if there’s no game.
23/02/2012 at 17:34 Very Real Talker says:
I didn’t like alistair, morgan and gay elf at all, I can’t share the same enthusiasm for the dialogue.
But I have to say that I think it’s pretty sad to play a videogame to enjoy intra-species gay flirting… but to each his own.
Having said that I think it’s pathetic and worthy of all the mockery bioware is receiving to divert attention from gameplay to dialogue and romances. Skippable content makes sense if you focus so much on the game part of your game that you can play (and by play I mean play, not reading dialogue or flirting with gay elves) in any order and still have a blast.
Of course bioware can do what the hell they want with their products (not calling them games…) but the mockery they are receiving is just
23/02/2012 at 17:35 WarpRattler says:
I play a lot of games that are nothing but gameplay—no story, or one that’s not contained within the game, or at most one that’s a few lines of dialogue before a boss fight—so the option of skipping combat in a lot of that is basically “don’t play the game.”
Case in point: the last two games I played (both on console-toys, but in this case, they’re things that aren’t on PC), BlazBlue: Continuum Shift Extend and Eschatos, are a fighting game and a shmup, respectively. Games of those genres live or die entirely on their gameplay, and to try to suggest otherwise would get you laughed out of the room (or get you sent over to sit with the indies in the corner, being ignored by the people who actually play games of those genres).
While Eschatos is pure gameplay, BlazBlue does contain an extensive (though not entirely good) story mode with only a few fights. While you can’t skip the combat entirely, the game does offer a beginner mode with simplified controls, and (aside from Hazama’s route, as well as a couple of fights during the true ending) it’s not too difficult regardless. Furthermore, the fights themselves tie into the story paths, with many of them taking the place of traditional visual novel decision points. A lot of characters have alternate routes that can only be accessed if you lose a fight, and one character has a bad ending that’s viewed by performing her Astral Heat (instant-kill finishing move) too many times.
However, that story mode in that game could reasonably be redesigned to not require the fights at all. And fans wouldn’t have a problem with that; much like the infamous Touhou series, BlazBlue gathers a lot of fans who don’t care about the gameplay but like the characters and music, so I imagine there are people who would just read the script without wanting to deal with the fights. (Hell, that’s what the light novel series and drama CDs are for!) And the people who really care about the gameplay aren’t even going to touch the story mode (or single-player modes in general, though Continuum Shift Extend has things that make single-player worthwhile), so they’re not going to miss it.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have Catherine, where a lot of people can’t get to the story (which should be the biggest draw of a visual novel, which Catherine really is) because the puzzle gameplay is too difficult. Most people wouldn’t be opposed to skipping the gameplay in that.
23/02/2012 at 17:36 Drinking with Skeletons says:
I think it depends on what the game is trying to do. L.A. Noire, for example, allows you to skip any action sequence–shootouts, driving, etc.–but not the actual investigation. The entire point of the game is to solve crimes, and by God you will solve them. Shooting people in the face, however, isn’t an essential part of that, so it’ll let you move right on by should you fail enough.
That it only allows you to do so after failing a few times–which will tend to happen quick if it’s going to happen at all–at least means the game isn’t assuming that you are totally uninterested in it’s combat and gives you the chance to try it. That’s better than skippable dialogue usually is, where one errant key press causes you to miss out on what you want to hear.
This setup really only works because the non-combat portion of the game is developed to the point that it actually holds your interest. It wouldn’t work if the non-combat portions were mostly non-interactive or otherwise dull–interactivity is the key to “game” for me, and that should apply to areas other than combat, when possible.
23/02/2012 at 17:37 Jnx says:
Well I know my wife would appreciate the option to skip combat. She’s played more of Dragon Age: Origins than I have and liked it very much. But she did keep saying “why can’t I just skip the combat and play the interesting parts.”
23/02/2012 at 18:38 Kolchak says:
And that’s because the major portions of Dragon Age Origins are horribly tedious. Especially on the higher difficulty levels. So clearly the game failed both of you.
Skipping the combat of a AAA game is like going to a 5 Star Restaurant and being served a charred steak. And instead of making you a new steak they tell you to eat around the burnt areas. Only in the field of video games are we tolerant of mediocrity.
23/02/2012 at 17:41 JumbocactuarX27 says:
If a developer wants to put that option in their games, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to. There are already common options out there to either sidestep the sort of things you’re talking about entirely or make them trivial. Difficulty levels can be adjusted down, youtube is rife with cutscenes and Let’s Plays, forums can be found discussing the story and sometimes even reproducing the text. Heck, now that I’m thinking about it, didn’t one of the Tales games on Xbox 360 release level up DLC that fills almost the same purpose. I don’t think we’ll see this very frequently though because it’s more work for someone to buy a game and then skip all the non-story bits than it is for them to watch TV or read a book.
23/02/2012 at 17:43 newprince says:
I don’t think FPSs and RPGs are this huge conspiracy making us like mass murder, or whatever silly argument is being constructed here. Rather, we have certain models that were insanely popular and still are. Mario, DOOM, just about every Japanese RPG, Diablo… these weren’t fun just because the characters were cool, although sometimes that was a large factor, but the gameplay was highly enjoyable, and sometimes revolutionary. What are games? Well, sometimes a game involves one person beating another. An easy way to represent this is defeating another entity in the game. It’s not hard to see how defeat can be analogized easily to death.
I’m not saying we can’t have a bit of a backlash against the mass murder norm of action games, I’m just saying there’s rather good reasons why it’s the norm, and it doesn’t have anything to do with us liking murder; it’s more abstract than that I’m afraid.
23/02/2012 at 17:45 DevilSShadoW says:
I’m really starting to wonder if there’s any way we can get John a proper Journo Trophy/Award for all the amazing pieces he’s been laying before our feet for all these years. I feel terribly guilty when I read on a subject that was clearly analyzed instead of just filler bullshit that other “gaming journalism” websites feed us these days. I genuinely feel smarter after I’m done reading one of John’s pieces.
Thank you.
23/02/2012 at 17:47 Petethegoat says:
I stopped playing Mass Effect 2 because the combat was boring.
I was really enjoying the world, but it just wasn’t worth grinding through the combat to get to the good bits.
23/02/2012 at 17:48 alexheretic says:
Skippable combat, or indeed content in general, is an idea that has suited some games and not others. It will continue to suit some games and not others.
Games where this boundary is blurred by personal preference, one could add a difficulty level of “Off” – when selected this would render challenge elements skippable or auto-skipped.
23/02/2012 at 17:48 DrGonzo says:
I like the idea in principle. But I’ve learned, that which is skippable was also cheap. If they make the game bits skippable, then chances are they didn’t spend much money on it or they would force you to play it.
Ultimately the argument is wrong though. As really there should be no difference between gameplay and dialogue or story. They should all be the game. None of this Mass Effect balls where you’re simply picking a slightly different answer from a list while you are watching a cut scene. It should all be one and the same and then maybe people wouldn’t want to skip any of it.
People argue it should be like films, so give us a fast forward button and allow morons to use it. Honestly imagine this argument about films and someone trying to defend that they want to fast forward all the dialogue and story and just leave in the action.
23/02/2012 at 19:26 jrodman says:
I’m not sure what we’d have to imagine. In films, you can already skip past all the dialogue to the action. That’s all that’s being discussed here. Maybe you might think it’s ridiculous that someone thinks that’s a valid way to watch a film, but people do think that. And I think it is indeed valid. Especially for *some* films!
24/02/2012 at 05:45 Acorino says:
It certainly is very valid for TV series! I skipped a lot through Supernatural and some of the weaker Doctor Who episodes…
24/02/2012 at 14:14 mckertis says:
Or you can just watch something completely different. I’ve watched several Dr.Who episodes of various generations, and thought that all of them were complete rubbish. Thats why i watch better shows.
23/02/2012 at 17:50 Infinitron says:
The problem with designing games that allow anything to be skipped, is that they become a series of discrete, prefabricated sections, instead of one flowing holistic experience.
Want to delve into a dungeon with randomly spawning wandering monsters, where at any moment a wandering monster might randomly barge into the room you’re hiding in, in a simulated, non-scripted manner?
Nope, can’t have that anymore. Discrete, scripted set-piece battles only!
23/02/2012 at 17:51 T4ffer says:
I wouldn’t mind skippable wombat, dingbat or mudflat much, but your insistence that there should be *no reaction at all* to such a suggestion is a bit bizarre. Listening to dialogue isn’t a challenge, if you skip all of it, the structure of the playthrough doesn’t change (unless it caused you to miss crucial clues to something). But if the designers make it possible to skip something that is a challenge, that just might change everything.
Actually, now that I think of it, skipping most dialogue can also change everything about the experience of the game. The skipping is there for the times when you replay or are just annoyed. And it could be the same for combat.
Still, I think it changes the game experience in more ways than you maybe thought of when writing that article. I think for some games this would be similar to skipping puzzles in adventure games.
But the idea of being able to jump into any “chapter” (if there are such) sounds good.
23/02/2012 at 17:55 dragonfliet says:
Here’s the bigger problem: people are conflating the ideas surrounding the argument. This isn’t an instance where you’re skipping the gameplay to get to the dialog. You’re skipping this particular instance because you’re sick of it. Because it doesn’t work, because it’s annoying or tedious, etc. Some people want to get to more story, but we don’t even need a story to want to skip tedious combat sections, or to get past a ridiculous, obtuse puzzle.
When I read a book, I don’t skim through a paragraph because I want to get to the combat, I do it because the writing has stalled, it isn’t interesting, it has gone off the rails, but the book itself is still interesting and I would like to finish it. When I want to skip ahead in a videogame it’s because I want to KEEP PLAYING, but I really want to be done with the tedious, boring bits, because that isn’t why I’m there, I’m there for the game as a whole, which is more interesting than its worst pieces.
This works especially well for games like DX:HR, with its horrible boss fights, but it also works in something like DA:O. Let’s say I’m enjoying the game, but then I get to friggin’ Orzammar, which takes for friggin’ ever to get through, even if I’m crazy powerful. Wouldn’t it be nice to not have to deal with the stupid city ambushes? Yes, it would be. They aren’t hard, they aren’t interesting, they don’t add anything, I hate them and I have lots of other things to do, thank you very much.
This is beneficial for replaying and wanting to get past something I hated. It is beneficial for wanting to play a certain section that I don’t have a quicksave already set up for (maybe I just reinstalled, maybe I forgot to quicksave, maybe it’s one of the batman games that says screw you and your desire for quicksaves), and I just want to get to a certain place (how many times have I popped in a movie to watch a particular scene when I don’t have the time or desire to watch the whole thing, or how many times have I picked up a book to read a particular passage? The answer is: Many, many times). Who knows. Skipping sections is simply beneficial, it hurts nothing, it helps in so many situations and it is something that needs to get done. It isn’t about watching a story, it is about controlling what you want to do.
23/02/2012 at 22:54 equatorian says:
+1 to all of this.
I always keep a gigantic library of save files just because I want to go back to a part I really like. If the game runs out of save slots—as is sometimes the case with old ones—I’d just make a new directory and shuffle the old saves in there for archival purposes, digging them out every now and again.
It probably depends on whether you find games to be an experience to savor or a challenge to overcome, though. It’s not mutually exclusive, but if you favor one over the other, I’d say that it has a significant effect on where your sense of accomplishment comes from.
23/02/2012 at 17:56 Ironclad says:
Allow me to pull an old classic out of my hat and draw your attention to System Shock (1). System Shock came out in 1994 and had a total of 4 difficulty settings. Not 4 difficulty modes like easy medium hard nightmare, but 4 different variables that affected the main game.
The first one was combat: how many enemies you faced and how strong they were. The second was the Cyberspace difficulty which was more of a game (flightsim) within a game than you might think. The third was the difficulty level of the other minigames. The last one was Mission – the easier you set it, the less objectives you had to fulfill but therefore you got less story. For example, on the highest difficulty level you have a (very hard) time limit. On lower difficulty levels are not required to disable the mining laser that’s aimed at Earth, etc…
This model was worked out 18 years ago and apparently forgotten. It’s time to bring it back.
23/02/2012 at 23:45 Skabooga says:
It was indeed a genius system. I did not go for the time limit option, because that tends to ruin games for me – removing that feature from my play made the game so much more enjoyable.
23/02/2012 at 17:56 Eddy9000 says:
For me the analogy with literature would be that when we are playing a games combat sections we are engaged in dialogue wit hthe game, we are writing a story that says “the brave dwarf was hit by a burning blast of dragon breath, stoically he swallowed a health potion and charged forward, bringing the axe used to slay so many lesser foes upon the head of the great beast”
Combat in a game *is* dialogue.
Why should we skip one kind of dialogue and not the other is still a question though. And I would probably say that in the main written game dialogue has more potential to be the same or similar on each playthrough, and is part of a narrative that is broadly unchanging. For all the dialogue that can be different in say Mass Effect, much is the same and you might not want to hear it again as it is part of a larger story that you know inside out. Combat is often (not always!) more involved, the dialogue you have with the game during combat is written anew every time within a broader set of rules. And then (and this is me) there is that some people like the written dialogue but don’t give a rat’s arse for the voice acting, so want to read the words but not have to sit through the performance of them; it is more difficult to find an analogy between this and the combat experience.
My solution would be an ‘auto’ button that someone could hold down, letting a basic AI take over the player character and the combat play out without them having to interact with it, possibly weakening the enemies to make this quicker. Although this is essentially done with the emerging ‘story modes’ in games like bastion that make death almost impossible but allow you to see the games combat- dialogue.
For me a more interesting question is not whether we should or should not have skippable combat, but why is it that we find ourselves in a situation where we don’t?
23/02/2012 at 17:57 awa64 says:
I’ve been replaying Mass Effect 2 and I’ve basically been doing that–every time I need more resources from the space-mining minigame, I open a savegame editor and bump all my iridium, palladium and platinum totals back up to 60,000.
I’m not offended by the idea of being able to skip parts of a game I don’t particularly enjoy, or skip to the parts I loved, especially for subsequent playthroughs. I’ll admit, though, I was offended by the Hepler comment that was dug up–somebody working for writing in games shouldn’t be looking at combat as something that can be completely divorced from writing/dialog. Ideally the two elements should be at least complementary, if not inseparable. The ability to skip parts of games would be great, but viewing those components of a game as so distinctly separate from one another makes it seriously sound like Hepler isn’t interested in exploring how writing in games can function differently from prose or screenwriting.
23/02/2012 at 18:00 Strontium Mike says:
Skipping dialogue is not the samething at all, just because you don’t listen to the virtual chatter doesn’t mean you don’t still have to act upon it. Once there was a game type to suit everyone, now gaming is becoming very homogenized. If you start skipping combat then you kill gaming, why bother to make all the different types of games when you can make one supergame with different modes?
Look back on every Bioware game you’ve ever played, how much is the combat to non combat ratio? Seems like hours of combat and minutes of conversation to me, if you add a skip combat button that ratio will have to change. Sounds like a good thing but it’s not, dialogue has to be written, voice acting recorded, conversations animated. That will all reduce the budget and disc space available to the combat section, games will get shorter more emphasis will be put on multiplayer and dlc. You might not ever use the button but the fact it’s there will affect ever aspect of the game.
Publishers and investors will want to maximize profits (not that I begrudge anyone the right to make money) they won’t want to take risks on niche games they won’t want to make games that don’t appeal to the widest possible denominator. We would never get something like Portal from a mainstream developer again, a skip combat button would lead to more focus group driven gaming. It’d be the autotune of the gaming industry, next it’ll be skip driving in NFS, skip jumping in Tomb Raider.
23/02/2012 at 18:00 Wetworks says:
“What’s so strange is that people are arguing at all. Because to say, “I would like it if combat could be skipped” is not the same as saying, “You HAVE TO skip all the combat in a game or we’ll kill your parents.”
The last thing we need is developers taking time from their schedule to design and balance a system where you can play the game and have fun by stripping away all the challenge and combat from the game.
Game developers already have to strip out ideas and crunch 80 hr weeks just to get out something that still requires day 1 patches and community mods to fix.
I’d rather they spend all their time bug fixing and implementing challenging content for their customers who actually like to “play” their game.
If someone wants to take out all the challenge they can just use,
1. Cheat codes
2. Walk throughs
3. Use the easy difficulty setting
And best of all, just watch the bazillion let’s play videos on Youtube. You get to see the entire story of the game and can skip past all the combat sections. Problem solved, and you didn’t even have to spend the $60 to experience the story.
23/02/2012 at 18:04 Casimir Effect says:
1. Cheat codes barely exist these days (thanks to achievements)
2. Knowing exactly how to do something is no help if you can’t do it because technique xyz is too hard for you.
3. Not all games have an Easy mode, or it may be easy only in name, or have sections where difficulty doesn’t matter (platforming/jumping puzzles)
23/02/2012 at 18:11 Wetworks says:
The majority of games nowadays are already designed to be completed by casuals. Asking for games to be made completable by non gaming mothers who have no interest in games is just being silly. (This is what Jennifer Hepler wants)
23/02/2012 at 18:58 Eddy9000 says:
The point of you referring to her being a mother was what?
23/02/2012 at 20:13 Wetworks says:
“The point of you referring to her being a mother was what? ”
This was in reference to her interview that we are all talking about,
“the biggest objection is usually that skipping the fight scenes would make the game so much shorter, but to me, that’s the biggest perk. If you’re a woman, especially a mother, with dinner to prepare, kids’ homework to help with, and a lot of other demands on your time, you don’t need a game to be 100 hours long to hold your interest — especially if those 100 hours are primarily doing things you don’t enjoy. A fast forward button would give all players — not just women — the same options that we have with books or DVDs — to skim past the parts we don’t like and savor the ones we do. Over and over, women complain that they don’t like violence, or they don’t enjoy difficult and vertigo-inducing gameplay, yet this simple feature hasn’t been tried on any game I know of. ”
Like I said, designing a video game to cater to mothers who don’t like gaming is a terrible idea.
23/02/2012 at 20:18 iucounu says:
Your argument has little merit. The insidious ‘design’ innovation you are talking about is a single feature which amounts to a fast-forward button and has no effect on the design of rest of the game. People who choose not to use it will not experience any difference in the underlying game any more than people who choose not to skip scenes on a DVD would experience a different film. It’s not going to be written to cater for anomalous behaviour.
23/02/2012 at 20:31 Wetworks says:
Your missing the point, time and manpower devoted to this feature will take away from squashing bugs and implementing other content into the game.
Since most games are fps nowadays lets take the standard 8 hr fps. Strip away all the combat and challenging sections, now you’re left with around 30 minutes of cut scenes. Who is going to spend $60 for 30 minutes of cut scenes? It’s a waste of resources to cater to this anamalous behavior.
My point is, the people who just want to watch the cut scenes can already watch them for free on Youtube.
23/02/2012 at 20:34 iucounu says:
I think you’re seriously overestimating the amount of work that anyone wants to put in to something like this. They’re asking for a button that lets you skip a boss fight. I don’t think that’d appreciably affect game development; and I think if they thought it was going to in any given case, they wouldn’t argue for it.
23/02/2012 at 20:42 Wetworks says:
I have no objection to skippable boss fights. What Jennifer Hapler wants is an option to skip all the combat and challenging sections of the game. That means catering the game to the style of player that does not like violence, does not like combat, and does not like “vertigo inducing” game play.
If they put in that option than they have to make sure the players who like this style will have a good time, that could entail a lot of balance and man hours to justify the full purchase price.
23/02/2012 at 22:13 HothMonster says:
You keep saying “wants” like she has a campaign to make this happen. She just said what would make video games better for her. Since she just wants to review the narrative, because she is the games writer. She probably wouldn’t be playing games at all if she didn’t work on them. Be glad she is actually taking the time to experience the dialog in game rather than pass on a giant manuscript to the programmers.
Her opinion on what would make games more enjoyable and more accessible to her is just as valid as anyone else. If a developer wants to cater to women, casual players or people without much free time they may want to look into this. If devs don’t they don’t have to. If you don’t want to play games that have this feature, you don’t have to.
She hasn’t started a movement to make this a required feature on all games. So if it is such a hassle no one has to do it. If its a relatively easy fix, were they can just jump you to the next talky bit or skip a action sequence without much hassle I don’t see why they shouldn’t consider this and decide if it makes sense for their game and their audience.
23/02/2012 at 22:23 jrodman says:
You’re willing to state that someone doesn’t like gaming, when it’s quite clear that they do. This seriously casts doubt on your ability to form and communicate useful observations in this area.
24/02/2012 at 01:05 Wetworks says:
“You’re willing to state that someone doesn’t like gaming, when it’s quite clear that they do.”
Explain to me how Jennifer Hepler clearly likes games when she makes statements like this?
” Question: What is your least favorite thing about working in the industry?
Answer: Playing the games. This is probably a terrible thing to admit, but it has definitely been the single most difficult thing for me. I came into the job out of a love of writing, not a love of playing games. While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn’t have a good story, it’s very hard for me to get interested in playing it. Similarly, I’m really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly — I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don’t like tactics, I don’t like fighting, I don’t like keeping track of inventory, and I can’t read a game map to save my life. This makes it very difficult for me to play to the myriad games I really should be keeping up on as our competition.”
To me it’s quite clear that Jennifer does not like playing games and only plays them because her current job requires her to. She wishes there was a skip combat button because she has to play her competitor’s games and she absolutely loathes to do so.
The idea of skipping combat just doesn’t make sense in a lot of games. How do you “skip” combat in Skyrim? Do you just press a button and every enemy around you automatically dies?
How do you skip combat in an fps? Do you just press a button and automatically finish the level?
What about all the loot, gold, experience, skill-ups, power-ups that you would have collected had you actually done the combat?
23/02/2012 at 18:00 Casimir Effect says:
Thanks John, this is exactly how I feel on the subject only presented far more loquaciously. Some people have the strange idea that their enjoyment of a game is directly affected by how other people play the it. Because they like/can afford to waste hours grinding to beat a boss (or even trying to beat a boss in a linear game) they feel everyone should.
No one says that skipping the gameplay will automatically mean you dislike it. It’s possible to love how a game plays most of the time but vehemently dislike a certain section or hit a difficulty wall you cannot get past. This is especially true in games which are the same 90% of the time but then turn into a platformer or take away abilities or are Nier.
I’d love to play the God of War games with a game-skippper. I’ve only played the first but climbing those spikey pillars out of hades ensures I never want to try another on in case they pull that shit again.
23/02/2012 at 18:04 bit_crusherrr says:
Whats the point in buying a game if you’re just going to watch the cutscenes. Might as well just watch a lets play on youtube.
24/02/2012 at 00:24 Hematite says:
Well, some people DO just watch the video on youtube, so there is empirical evidence that it’s a feature people are interested in having.
But what we’re talking about is the ability selectively skip any arbitrary part of the game. It seems strange that its widely accepted that you can skip dialogue, but if you only want to play 90% of the combat scenes you’re out of luck – it’s 100% or nothing.
23/02/2012 at 18:04 frenz0rz says:
I cant help but think this completionist/achievement attitude toward games is a leftover from the darkest depths of gaming’s past, and is something that will take a lot of time and effort (on the part of both gamers and developers) to evolve past.
Think back to particularly difficult games of old, such as Contra. Completing a level was an achievement, and your reward was to see and experience the next level. Very few people ever made it to the end of such a game, and the ones who did probably considered it a genuine accomplishment. Fast forward to present day and this mindset remains, despite the general changes in difficulty and skill. Even if a game is easy to the point of tedium, but the story is interesting enough to keep you going, you MUST play the tedious parts to continue.
On the other hand, some games might be too hard. However, if a game has a well written story I want to experience it to the end. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines was too hard to complete with my shoddily made Malkavian, so I cheated my way to the end and enjoyed the final cutscenes. Years later, I went back with a different character and completed it without cheating, so that I could experience the enjoyment of having genuinely beaten it.
Ultimately I think it boils down to whether you play to win or to enjoy the story. Either way, you should be allowed to play it your way, and we should aim to drop this archaic attitude toward completing games.
23/02/2012 at 22:11 Mman says:
Bringing up Contra as a game that forced you to earn your victory is kind of funny considering it’s the most iconic example of the “Konami Code” that allowed players who weren’t up to playing it “normally” to finish it anyway.
23/02/2012 at 18:05 craigdolphin says:
John Walker: you weren’t a kiwi commonwealth games runner in a past life were you?
Anyways, good article is good. And true. And righteous. The whole point of games is that they are an interactive medium. The experience is co-created by the developers and the player. Skippable combat is just as valid a choice for players as skippable cutscenes. Screw the combat-required nazis!
23/02/2012 at 18:07 pilouuuu says:
I think that the more options you have the better and as has been mentioned before L.A. Noire has such an option and it’s valid in case the player lacks the skill for beating a certain sequence of the game.
But an even better option would be including alternatives. For example you could try to beat a boss, but after you failed the first time a friendly NPC would arrive and tell you “Hey, I’ve been looking for you. It seems you need my help now!” and then you could try to beat the boss with help. If you fail another time maybe the boss could say: “You’re not match for me! I will meet you again when you’re a worthy opponent.” and then he would leave, appearing later in the game, when you’re stronger or with better skill.
If the game is an RPG you should have options to talk to the boss and convince him to let you go or complete a quest where you can give him an object and befriend him.
The thing is that narrative and combat need to be entwined and both should make sense, so then there would not be much need to skip anything.
23/02/2012 at 18:14 Berzee says:
all of those things would be cool
and then it would also be cool if you wanted to skip those things =P
I doubt I would skip anything, but it would be…cool.
(I like the idea of the game just changing the situation for you if you’re having trouble though…for certain games. I don’t like it when villains leave the scrappy hero alive for no reason and would prefer a “game over” to that, but the possibility of unexpected reinforcements and such could be fun if it wasn’t seeming too convenient to believe.)
23/02/2012 at 18:14 Laurentius says:
People are against skip-able combat because it would bring to full light how much time they uselessly spent wasting their lives on this thing.
23/02/2012 at 19:04 Keith Nemitz says:
Heh!
23/02/2012 at 18:14 NothingFunny says:
Gamedev saying she dosen’t like games and thinks gameplay should be skipable. You don’t see a problem here?
When people like her start ‘tuning’ games to appeal to the tastes and preferences of like-minded publics(who supposedly don’t even like – if play at all – games either) the result is pure degradation.
If you want to focus on narrative, fine. Make an interactive movie like Heavy Rain.
But don’t even touch games that people play for gameplay in the first place.
23/02/2012 at 18:17 Berzee says:
I like games and I think I should be allowed to skip parts too though.
NOW WHAT DO YOU SAY?????
23/02/2012 at 18:26 Unaco says:
She’s a writer, not a developer involved in the design etc. If she was a 3D artist who said she never played games at all, would you have a problem? What about someone who wrote networking code, but never played multiplayer games?
Everything she suggested was also optional. Are you railing against more options in games?
23/02/2012 at 19:02 HothMonster says:
A writer focused on narrative? The nerve of some people! She should write more explosions, which I will now do for her. BOOM, BLAMMO, KERPLOSION, KA-BANG, POOT. Ok that last one was just a fart.
23/02/2012 at 19:07 NothingFunny says:
“She’s a writer, not a developer involved in the design etc. If she was a 3D artist who said she never played games at all, would you have a problem? What about someone who wrote networking code, but never played multiplayer games? ”
Yes there is a problem if you don’t understand the specifics of the job because you don’t even play games, even worse if you don’t like them. And it always affect the end result in a negative way. Even worse if you start to change the game to your preferences.
“Everything she suggested was also optional. Are you railing against more options in games?”
I’m against suggestions from the people who don’t play or dislike games. I’m against such people at key positions in the gamedev ( and who would really care about her comments if she was not a gamedev?)
And yeah there are cheatcodes already, like been said few times. Use them and skip all you want, You have this option in most games.
23/02/2012 at 19:17 Fumarole says:
I just want to point out how amusing I find it that this is posted by a person with Vault Boy from Fallout as their avatar. You know, the game in which all combat can be avoided and the final boss brought low with conversation. It is also a game in which you can murder every last person in the game. Such a great thing to have both extremes and everything in between available, innit? One reason why Fallout is a great game.
23/02/2012 at 18:23 Scabmastah says:
I think people who are skeptic towards the idea of skippable combat are more afraid of how it will adversely affect the quality of said skippable combat than the fact that people will be skipping combat. DLC and console ports don’t sound bad on paper either but we all know how these concepts have adversely affected games.
23/02/2012 at 18:24 LennyLeonardo says:
There really is no possible argument against being able to skip any part of a game. The only negative ramifications I can think of is the possibility of accidentally skipping something. That’s it.
Therefore I agree with everything in this article, apart from the jab at boss fights. Couterpoint: Vanquish.
23/02/2012 at 18:46 D3xter says:
I don’t really see much of an argument FOR skipping large parts of a game, I remember a time where you actually had to play it and learn things and get better at them to complete any game, sometimes requiring you to make use of that brainpower or quick reflexes you got and/or memorization and that was CONSIDERED the game, you know… the thing people bought that cartridge or disk for.
Nowadays most games are already in such a dumbed-down state that you can finish most of them while sleeping, even if you haven’t really played any before and what’s being asked for here is turning games into movies entirely. I already found it insulting that the new Mass Effect is supposed to have an “Action” mode where the game skips through conversations for you and a “Story” mode where combat can be overcome by a three year old… I mean… REALLY? Some people couldn’t be arsed to move their controller up or down and make a choice, and others had problems with the combat on Easy even though they bought and wanted to play an Action-game, REALLY? At some point if you don’t really want to play a game… you know get a movie or a book instead.
23/02/2012 at 19:06 LennyLeonardo says:
It’s not that people don’t want to play the games, it’s that there are people who play games for different reasons from you. Telling them to read a book or watch a film instead is just condescending.
There’s also a school of thought that says making combat/challenges skippable actually allows games to be more difficult, as those without the skills can skip just whatever parts frustrate them.
Looking back to a time when games were all challenge and we were all “real” gamers, is similarly condescending to those who see merit in the other things games offer but don’t want the challenge.
There are still plenty of difficult games around, by the way. Again: Vanquish.
23/02/2012 at 18:32 Skusey says:
I’ve absolutely no interest in the combat of the recent Fallouts, but the world is fascinating so I just turn God Mode on. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’ll do.
23/02/2012 at 18:40 Shooop says:
A game is entertainment, meant to be enjoyed by the player. If you can skip to scenes in movies why shouldn’t anyone be able to do the same with games? The only restrictions should be in multiplayer where the goal is an even playing field for everyone.
23/02/2012 at 18:41 Gunre says:
I pretty much never post on stuff here, but for whatever reason this story nearly made my head explode. I don’t really care to articulate an argument, but I do want to say you are wrong, you’re a bad person, and you should feel bad about being such a bad, horrible person.
23/02/2012 at 18:48 pilouuuu says:
Maybe they can let you skip the whole game straight to the ending… But then they’d have to make good quality endings…
23/02/2012 at 18:49 O-2-L says:
Love the Ó Briain clip.
His one about Gears of War and MGS4 were excellent as well
23/02/2012 at 18:51 crizzyeyes says:
This article seems to imply that each game should be made for everyone, and skip buttons will somehow make one game appeal to the entire market. Unfortunately, this isn’t true, and you really, really shouldn’t try to make a game that appeals to everyone at once.
The thought that somebody would skip part of a game that they just bought with their own money honestly sickens me. It’s just fucking wasteful, and as an American I can say it’s as American as it gets. Instead of having skip buttons to appeal to everyone, you should have actually good dialogue and/or gameplay to appeal to… well… a lot of people. Not everyone. Because that’s impossible.
Consumers should be smart enough to do a little research on the product they’re eyeing if it costs fifty or sixty dollars. To spend sixty dollars on a graphic novel by skipping the entire combat part of Dragon Age… I can’t see that as being anything than ridiculous. Not because the person can’t possibly enjoy the wonderful combat, but because the person just SKIPPED A HUGE PART OF A GAME THEY PAID MONEY FOR! That shows you’re not really putting forth enough effort in finding a game that you would actually enjoy playing. Or perhaps you should just stick to books.
The same goes the other way around. If you love hack-and-slash or fast-paced gameplay and you bought a dialogue-filled JRPG with turn-based combat, you’re an idiot, and the developer shouldn’t have to cater to you by letting you skip all the dialogue at once.
Games will only appeal to a portion of the market at a time, and you can only appeal to a larger portion by making your game better. It’s really that simple. Obviously there will always be niche games that a smaller number of people find very good, but if you’re looking to make a game that sells (those developers obviously were not), the rule I stated above applies.
23/02/2012 at 22:32 jrodman says:
That’s not implied, it’s your own (false) read.
The statement is: in some situations this option would be welcome for some people. And moreover, it would not take away from almost anyone in almost any situation. So it makes sense.
This does not in any way imply that all games should be made for all people.
24/02/2012 at 00:33 Hematite says:
The thought that people would peel the skin off an apple that they bought with their own money honestly sickens me.
24/02/2012 at 14:28 mckertis says:
Visual novel industry is quite large today, and for the life of me i cant understand why. If you like romance – read books !!! If you want porn – get porn !!! If you want pretty characters – google images !!! Why would anyone suffer through a combination of cyclic dialogue trees, still images, and bad writing ? And yet they do, they totally do !
23/02/2012 at 18:54 necrosis says:
You forget. They monitor these things and choices take time to program.
How long before Burger King starts taking stats of how many people remove the tomato and decide to save money by not offering tomato as a option at all?
It is the same thing with games. Look how dumbed down the console generation has made PC gaming. Specifically FPS games. Where are my options to play Rainbow Six: Vegas like I played Rainbow Six: Ravens Shield? Where is our choice now?
You start giving people options. The gaming companies start taking metrics and adjust accordingly. You really think EA is not keeping track of who picks what option in Mass Effect 3? Oh they are. Soon “gaming” will mean “animated story books”.
Oh and what crizzyeyes just said before me. Could not have hit the nail on the head any better.
Reminds me of a friends wife. Refuses to play games without the strategy guide. I mean outright refuses. Won’t even do a single play-through without it. It makes me bash my head against the wall wondering why she even plays games.
23/02/2012 at 20:44 Skabooga says:
If skippable-combat games cannot coexist with combat-non-skippable games in an industry as large as this one, well then, tough luck, I suppose, but I really have no sympathy, because your favored type of game kept my favored type down for 30 years, and now that my favored type is the more popular, there is no reason it shouldn’t destroy your favored type.
But I fully believe the industry is large enough to accommodate both types of games, so there is no reason to worry.
23/02/2012 at 18:59 Daniel Klein says:
Question to the collective commentariat: which game had the least shit story? Because I may just be asking too much, but I can hardly remember the last game where the story made me go “oooh, this is quite good, don’t you know.”
Deus Ex Human Revolution made me not entirely want to skip the story. That was quite good. But in the end it was a super forgettable story, and I stopped reading coincidental texts half-way through.
The last game that made me want to grab a passer by and say, hey, you, PLAY THIS GAME BECAUSE THE STORY DOES THINGS TO YOU? This is going to sound samey, and depressing if you realize it’s 12 years old now, but yeah, Planescape Torment. And fuck, I was 19 when I played it. Chances are these days I’d go “meh, what changes the nature of a man? I guess booze does.”
I do seek out other art for the story explicitly. Films and books, yes, those are the obvious once, but less obviously I play story games (aka narrative roleplaying games, aka not Dungeons and Dragons thank you very much), and I LOVE a good story, or even a rubbish story that is entertaining and made up on the spot. But as much as I love gaming, I’ve not had a single game where the story made me want to do anything other than skip it in a dozen years.
23/02/2012 at 20:35 LennyLeonardo says:
Red Dead Redemption did a number on me. The ending was really special.
Another was Okami. Not the story, as such, but the writing and characterisation. The whole thing was totally unique, despite borrowing a lot from Zelda games.
Also, the Portal games were mostly superb, both script and performance-wise. Though the story was very one-note, there were so many great moments. It also highlighted the way in which “writing” in games is not just about dialogue and exposition: the sequence with the turret programming machine in Portal 2 was like an exquisite bit of old-fashioned slapstick but had little to do with the narrative.
There are still some great stories, and some great writing, around, I think.
23/02/2012 at 22:35 jrodman says:
I played Dear Esther last week.
24/02/2012 at 17:14 Daniel Klein says:
Did they port Red Dead to PC? Cause I do not own a console box :/
Dear Esther was great indeed, I bought and played it yesterday, and while it didn’t have a story that I could retell to anyone (so there’s this dude, only maybe you’re not a dude? and he’s on an island, or I guess he’s on an island, but maybe also he’s a ghost, but probably not and anyway just look at the 300 screenshots I took) it used its storytelling, vague and contradictive as it was, to create an AMAZING experience.
So that was definitely good.
Portal is really, really good, but I loved Portal because it was so funny. Yes it had genuinely touching moments, but they only stood out because of the contrast to the uber-silliness of the rest. I loved both Portal games and they’re rare examples of single player games I played all the way through (Portal 1 more than once, too).
23/02/2012 at 19:01 LockjawNightvision says:
It’s funny, I think your sneery dismissal of the “you might as well be watching a film” argument is the biggest hole in your own argument. If you accept that a game is — let’s avoid using the term “art” — an expressive vehicle for meaning, then you are tacitly accepting that experiencing the whole of the game is necessary to have a valid interpretation of the piece. Skipping parts of the game invalidates your interpretation of it because you’re willfully skipping huge portions of the meaning devised by the creator(s). Put another way: Would Bioshock’s meditations on the nature of free will and player artifice have been any more than post-grad waffle without the long, long bits of trudging mindlessly from one objective to another?
It’s not that you might as well be watching a film if you skip the combat, it’s that you might as well be watching a film and fast forwarding to the bits you like. Which, sure, is something that some people do. But I sure wouldn’t trust their review.
23/02/2012 at 19:15 HothMonster says:
Sure, but should we limit how people enjoy their purchased “art” because we are purists? I don’t understand why some paintings sell for millions and some for single dollars, i don’t understand the different methods and can not tell you about paint strokes. Does that mean I am looking at them wrong or I don’t have the right to own or look at them? Are my emotional responses and enjoyment of a painting less valid?
I can however discuss any aspect of videogames for hours on end. Should I get to restrict how other people play because I think that is the truest way to play? Because that is the “complete” experience? Or should we allow these options to let others experience the parts of the game they connect strongest to” Or maybe just so I can replay ME again without having to trudge through all the combat.
I don’t have to take art method and history classes to enter the Louve so I can look at the pictures properly. My books don’t unlock the pages for the next chapter only after I have finished the first.
23/02/2012 at 19:45 Gpig says:
@Hothmonster Do you actually skip around from chapter to chapter in a book on your first reading? If so you’re the first person I’ve met who does that. I may be biased because I was an English major, but if someone told me they don’t read straight through a book I would think they were crazy (and I’ve never encountered someone who does) (unless it was something that specifically isn’t strictly chronological and may not be organized properly in the first placed such as The Pale King).
I don’t think skipping the gameplay is even like skipping ahead to another chapter. It’s more akin to buying the cliffnotes with how it shows a disdain for the beauty/joy of the text in search of some compressed information. A game isn’t simply completion of the story in the same way that reading a book isn’t simply knowing what happens. I’m not opposed to unlocking the ability to skip from chapter to chapter after having first played it, which is comparable to getting a dvd after having sat through the film in theaters, but I do think people who wish to skip the gameplay should consider why they are playing the game in the first place. The story is rarely excellent in action games and they would be better suited to the adventure games, interactive visual novels, and interactive fiction, where interesting things are being done in stories.
As for the Louvre example, at least you are appreciating the art in person and not simply looking at a picture in an art book or in a google search. I similarly don’t think it’s required that someone understands all concepts a game is employing, but that they should appreciate the art first hand. All of it.
(oh and I’m happy I caught the typo where I spelled your name hotmonster before hitting submit)
23/02/2012 at 20:47 HothMonster says:
I have certainly skipped or skimmed through boring bits for books I have to read for school or work. My mother is one of those people that reads the last chapter first, a habit I have never understood. A few particularly suspenseful books I have jumped ahead just to make sure so-and-so wasn’t dead or what have you if I knew I couldn’t read it soon and didn’t want that worry floating in my brain. But generally I do read them front to back.
I am just saying if people pay the money to enjoy it they should get to enjoy it how they please. Maybe there is a bit they are bad at or a bit they find boring, I am not opposed to them skipping that. I remember some developer, and I’m pissed I can’t think of the game, talking about how the ending video on youtube had millions of hits and only a small fraction of owners of the game had the ending achievement. They had pinpointed the section of the game that people stopped playing at and said, “next time we will make this easier.” I think giving these people the option to skip the shitty(relative) bit so they can finish their game should not be denied simply because they won’t have the full artistic experience.
Games, by and large, are made for enjoyment not to discuss the finer points of the Maoist regime’s effects on modern Indochina. The ability to say, this chapter is too fucking hard/annoying/stupid/time consuming please show me the ending movie and let me get to the next level might not be so bad.
23/02/2012 at 21:04 equatorian says:
I’d like to say that when I pick books in a bookstore, I read the first ten pages and the last ten pages as a rule. It’s not because I want to know how it ends, I certainly don’t, and if the writer is competent you won’t really know HOW it ends from the last ten pages anyway, only what the ending is. But know what you can get from that? Whether characters will turn out to be types you find rather distasteful or not. At the last ten pages, all the development for the character will be done, and while I won’t know if there are any redeeming points in the middle, there’s generally a clear indication of whether a main character is someone I’d find so distasteful that I’d want to throw it at the wall.
And by distasteful I don’t mean evil, conniving bastardly characters. Give me more of those. Just those that gives me an unpleasant taste in the mouth…..it’s how I decided I will not give in to my cousin’s pestering that I read Twilight (really, just because I’m a ‘fellow woman’ I should like Twilight?) and refused her right in the bookstore. I’d say the practice has some merits.
(P.S. I practically taught myself to read and read every day, on a variety of books, on multiple brow heights. I helped my English Major cousin write her literature papers. So I don’t think reading the last few pages means I don’t like reading books, it’s just what I’m comfortable with….and I don’t mean to sound argumentative in any way, just giving the perspective of someone who likes reading the last pages first.)
23/02/2012 at 19:06 buxcador says:
We have infinite cases of non skippable dialogues with skippable combat: it’s called movies.
Some movies are great, but they are not games, and that’s why we like to skip dialogue and not to skip combat.
We also hate quick time events. They suck.
23/02/2012 at 19:07 Fumarole says:
Thanks for posting this article. Intelligent pieces like this are why I read RPS and avoid most of the rest of the game sites out there. I especially like the Whopper reference; the whole You’re Doing It Wrong crowd has always mystified me.
23/02/2012 at 19:07 Ultra Superior says:
erm Alone in the Dark let you skip any episode, just like DVDs do and it was a terrible terrible shit of a game.
It was one giant difficulty spike wrapped around massive difficulty spike that was impaled on a giant black difficulty spike.
Never again.
23/02/2012 at 19:08 pilouuuu says:
I wanted to read all comments, but I just skipped to the last one…
23/02/2012 at 19:09 choconutjoe says:
The comparison to books and films is misleading. Books and films aren’t skipable by design, it’s just a byproduct of the format (i.e. you can’t stop someone flipping a page or fast-forwarding a tape). Specifically making a film or writing a novel so that sections can be arbitrarily skipped would be an entirely different proposition, and would almost certainly result in a terrible film/book. It’s hard to imagine that any serious film-lover or bookworm would rush to the defence of such an idea.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, accomplishing the same thing with games would inevitably mean dividing games up into exposition dumps and unrelated sections of gameplay, rather than trying integrate all these elements into a seamless whole. In other words they would be badly designed games.
So, no, it doesn’t affect me if other want to skip parts of a game. If I have to play games which are badly designed just so they can appeal to people who don’t like playing computer games, then it does affect me and I’m entirely right to care about it.
23/02/2012 at 19:20 iucounu says:
I’m not sure that’s at issue here.
23/02/2012 at 19:26 choconutjoe says:
It’s a direct response to something in the article. I don’t really see how it could not be at issue.
“We’re allowed to with films, and no one can stop you turning to the last chapter of a book. Goodness knows why you’d want to, but there’s no reason you shouldn’t.”
23/02/2012 at 19:50 Namrok says:
That is a good point. No author or film maker in their right mind intends for the people enjoying their hard work to just arbitrarily skip certain segments. It’s how these things work though. To stop someone from skipping pages in a printed book, or from fast forwarding a tape would have taken a serious investment in time and technology. I’d say only starting from DVD and eReaders could you have stopped people from skipping ahead.
That being said, to skip ahead in the game is not a matter of simply not inhibiting the action, but explicitly adding it. And like I said, what hard working person putting their blood sweat and tears, 80 hours a week, and years of their life into this product would want to let people skip parts of it?
That, and there is also gamings ugly history with being inherently masochistic. Games used to be about killing you every minute so you had to feed the machine another quarter. How far into home gaming did we get before games stopped being “Nintendo Hard” due to that mentality? But still, we cling to the idea that you need to earn the next level in a game. You need some sort of objective bragging rights when it comes to comparing how far you got in a game VS your friend.
Now instead of levels we have achievements, and most games that support cheats don’t allow you to earn achievements while having cheats active. And people get very defensive over games that give you trophies or increase your gamer score too easily.
It definitely boils down to boys and men being competitive. We want to achieve something that puts us above others, even if its something completely immaterial like getting further in a video game than a friend. Games being a male dominated industry, it makes sense that developers would resist the idea of making games, and the experience of them, less competitive.
23/02/2012 at 20:04 iucounu says:
“If I have to play games which are badly designed just so they can appeal to people who don’t like playing computer games, then it does affect me and I’m entirely right to care about it.”
That’s what I’m saying isn’t at issue. Nobody writes a book so that it can be read in an arbitrary order so it will appeal to mad people (except William Burroughs); nobody makes a film so that scenes can arbitrarily be skipped. But if people want to do that, they can. (I in fact have been known to skip a chapter or two when rereading a book, so I retract the implication that you would need to be mad.)
The fact is that allowing people to skip sections of a game that they’re not enjoying doesn’t mean the game has to be wholly designed around the existence of that decision. You can even build it in to the game in a positive way, if you like; in Football Manager, you’re allowed to go on holiday and leave matches in charge of the AI assistant manager, who will probably be worse than you at managing. Or you can let a good AI assistant take care of press conferences if you can’t be bothered with that particular mini-game (or RPG, depending on what you’re trying to get out of the game.)
What I’m saying is, you seem to be worried about something that nobody is proposing. I don’t see where Walker or Hepler are saying: let’s remove bits of games, like combat, and deny them to you, the hardcore gamer. They’re saying: why not let people who aren’t hardcore gamers, who are there for the conversation more than the guns, skip the guns if they want to, if it doesn’t affect your experience of the game.
23/02/2012 at 21:51 choconutjoe says:
The fact is that allowing people to skip sections of a game that they’re not enjoying doesn’t mean the game has to be wholly designed around the existence of that decision.
Actually it does.And this is the key point: By definition, the only way it’s possible to skip the combat to get to the story is if the story and the combat are discrete elements. As other people in this thread have argued, failing to get the story and the mechanics of your game to intertwine is a textbook example of bad game design. But it becomes an absolute necessity if you want to design the combat to be skippable. To argue in favour of this would seem to be a massive backwards step.
I release John hasn’t explicitly argued for this. My point is it’s an inevitable trade-off whether you want it or not. And it’s worth pointing out that Jennifer Hepler was quite explicit about the fact that she doesn’t like playing games, which begs the question why we should be abandoning principles of good design to please her (or anyone of her disposition).
The Football Manager example isn’t really the same thing. That’s just the game giving the player different ways of accomplishing the same goal. It doesn’t involve restructuring the game so as to separate otherwise interacting elements. Different mini-games are inherently discrete in a way that story and combat aren’t.
Your last paragraph doesn’t really relate to anything I’ve said. I haven’t accused anyone of trying to remove combat from games.
23/02/2012 at 22:05 iucounu says:
The FM example is on point. If there’s a problem with the intertwining of the guns and conversation, and someone skipped the guns, simply assume that the player would have done OK but not great. If I want to skip the sodding Deep Roads, let me, but give me less loot than I would have got had I played through it. It’s just the same as letting your dim AI assistant manager take charge of a match.
Regarding my last para: your point, as I took it, was that you objected to the possibility that allowing players to skip bits of a game they don’t enjoy would mean that you would lose out on being able to play those bits. You seemed to be saying that it would entail a huge redesign or rebalancing of a game that would either remove, or remove the fun of, bits of that game you like. I got that from the bit where you said that you would be affected by this change somehow. I’m arguing that nobody is really going to change your experience by letting someone else skip a level, and nobody is arguing for that particular interpretation of the proposal. If anything, they’ll be penalised for doing it in gameplay terms – something that is already a very familiar gameplay/design mechanic.
23/02/2012 at 22:30 choconutjoe says:
“The FM example is on point.[...]”
What you’re talking about here is not what I’m objecting to. Skipping the Deep Roads is not the same as ‘skipping the combat to get to the story’.
“Regarding my last para: your point, as I took it, was that you objected to the possibility that allowing players to skip bits of a game they don’t enjoy would mean that you would lose out on being able to play those bits.”
No. I never said anything like that. I’m not talking about skipping levels. I’m talking about skipping one element of the game design to get to another. This is also what Jenifer Hepler was talking about. Jenifer Hepler’s original point was about skipping combat to get to the story. By definition this is only possible if the combat and story are separate things delivered at different times to the player in different ways. That is, the game has to consist of exposition dumps and sections of combat that have little to do with one another.
Look at something like the Half-Life games. The story and combat/gameplay elements intertwine to such a degree that there is no reasonable way you could skip one to get to the other. They are delivered at the same time and are virtually one and the same thing. This is good game design. The only way this game could be made palatable to Jenifer Hepler is if the story and combat elements were divided up and delivered separately. This is bad game design. If Half-Life had been designed to accommodate Jenifer Hepler then the version of the game I would have played would have been considerably worse than the one I did play.
23/02/2012 at 19:14 Cinnamon says:
This idea, like many others that can be put in a box labelled dumbing down, seems slightly disgusting because it is a negative reductionist idea about the future of games. You take one part of a game that annoyed someone once and decide to smooth all the creases out of it leaving you with a product that is less offensive in some ways but on the whole if feels like something is missing. It’s depressing and unimaginative. It has no insight into how a game as a whole product adds together to make you feel awesome at it’s high points. It offers absolutely no hope for bigger or more expansive games in the future.
23/02/2012 at 19:14 Keith Nemitz says:
In 1999, the IGF finalist, ‘Flagship: Champion’ was a starship combat adventure that allowed players to handle combat five different ways. The first was a 3D tactical wargame that would make Frozen Synapse players sweat. The second was a 2D version of combat. The third allowed players to discover a trick, hinted in the story, to gain a powerful advantage in combat. It was like ‘pulling a Kirk’. The four allowed the player to discover the trick but then assume the battle was won. The fifth allowed the player to skip combat altogether and just interact with the story. Every battle, you could choose how to approach it. So if you were ass-kicked one way, you could try again or try again in an easier mode.
23/02/2012 at 19:23 Davie says:
You make some interesting points. I will say that there were times I wished I could skip Mass Effect’s dull third-person corridor alien shooting and get back to the generally lovely talking bits. If some real thought and effort has been put into a game’s story, I would happily accept the ability to skip combat.
23/02/2012 at 21:33 Ultra Superior says:
Yes, Mass Effect 2 was the only game where I really wanted to skip everything except for story and the dialogues. I like the universe, some parts of the story but the game was terrible. Regenerating when sticked to cover – and cover thats useless unless you are sticked to it with a button – that was the WORST GAME MECHANICS EVER
23/02/2012 at 19:26 cheeba says:
A lot of people seem to have a rather binary reaction to this, like skipping ALL the combat would be the default choice. Surely it’s more about skipping particularly irritating sections and the like, boss fights, y’know? Skipping all combat would just be an extreme example. And skipping boss fights would be trivially easy to implement for just about anything.
I really don’t see any reason why this shouldn’t be the standard. Might even encourage a few devs to put some more thought into their writing if they have a subsection of gamers playing more for the story. All these folks getting bent out of shape because it’s some kind of affront to their principles, well, it’s just baffling.
24/02/2012 at 00:49 Hematite says:
I think we’re seeing the common internet effect where people with extreme opinions are the most motivated to comment, so at a glance it seems like everyone has an extreme opinion.
Moderates who would like the option to skip combat to be similarly common to the option to skip dialogue probably don’t have much to say. Except me, I like talking. Lovely weather today.
23/02/2012 at 19:29 Deviija says:
Thank you very much for writing this, Mr. Walker! I completely agree, just like I agreed with Hepler. There is nothing wrong with the option of skipping combat. I, for one, am not someone that enjoys grinding levels for 20+ hours, clicking the same buttons and seeing the same animations repeat over and over. It gets incredibly tiring! Combat in games is rarely fun, new, engaging, or customizable, imo, so it’s not something I’ll miss come hour 10+. Or if I am having an issue with a severe boss fight and just want to get around the tedium.
This isn’t saying that combat must not be developed for a game with said option for people to skip it, nor is it even saying that all games MUST have combat skipped. It is just offering an option. An OPTION that gives people CHOICE.
23/02/2012 at 19:29 Hoaxfish says:
Someone has probably said this already, but designing an aspect of your game to be skippable probably means you sub-conciously think you’ve not done a good job in the first place.
Surely anyone who believes their game to be a solid consistently well-wrought multi-media construct would be unable to conceive of skipping any aspect with a simple key-press.
We can see this when devs do not add skip-buttons for cutscenes (whether pre-rendered or in-engine) even though those are arguable much more “parcelled” up (simply marked by removing control from the player).
Is the part where you beat a boss by assessing and then overcoming their abilities part of the story or a character/player’s struggles? Do you skip the part where the boss details his ludicrous plans while forcing you to dodge rockets? Is that combat or story?
There are plenty of games, and other forms of entertainment, where you don’t have to skip combat because it is simply not there.
23/02/2012 at 19:31 Beefsurgeon says:
This topic is silly, so I’m inclined to chime in. Depending on the nature of the game, certain elements are going to be either more integral or less integral to the overall experience. So it’s no big deal for the dev to allow the player to skip the less integral parts.
The thing is, it’s still a game, so the outcome of skipped sequences should generally still count toward the player’s performance/progress through the game.
I’m reminded of the Total War series. You can either play the realtime battles or have the computer play them for you. Either way, you win or lose the battle and you carry on with the game.
Of course, every game is different and it’s up to the devs to figure out how to make the game fun (possibly in unexpected ways that go against standard conventions). If they succeed, good game. If they fail, shit game.
23/02/2012 at 19:37 nERVEcenter says:
If you’re not confident enough in your melding of gameplay and narrative to force people to play your combat, you shouldn’t be designing games. People should want to set aside the time to play your game in its entirety, regardless of where their interests lie.
There are other products much more appropriate for largely passive storytelling, or even with minimal interactivity. Video games are not those products. As a consumer of video games, I expect both the narrative and gameplay elements to be both engaging and highly complementary, preferably moving towards innovative intertwining of the two into a can’t-miss experience.
I simply won’t give another dollar to a developer who makes the time to implement an entirely skippable game in favor of a narrative that is otherwise a completely separate entity that might be better suited to a movie, short story, or novel.
23/02/2012 at 19:44 Mr. Cranch says:
Hear, hear!
Deciding how other people are allowed to play games, or believing that other people playing differently is an affront to you, is mystifying. Such a solipsistic view of the gaming world is utterly without merit or value to you or anyone else. If people want to skip combat, you should get on with not caring at all.
In particular I’ve never understood the hostility among some to quicksaves. If you think quicksaves are so detrimental to the challenge, then don’t use them! Sometimes there seems to be a simple lack of charity towards those who just aren’t good at combat but still generally enjoy it — provided they don’t have to start over at the very beginning every time they die.
23/02/2012 at 19:49 Jae Onasi says:
I’d love to have an escape key for some combat. I enjoy boss fights, but endless trash mobs waste my time. I buy all my SPRPGs for PC so that I can mod them. I’ll play through the first time on ‘normal’ settings to experience the game as the devs intended, but the second time I’ll mod in Uber Gear of Invincibility and Great Sword of Insta-death to burn through the trash mods quickly to get to the good stuff–exploring the different aspects of the story I’d missed the first time around.
I used the no-clip cheat in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines in the Warrens because I can’t stand the Tzimishe creatures–they creep me out and that whole area is just a pain in the arse anyway. They were also in the way of me hearing more outrageous Malkavian dialogue.
I have no desire to get rid of combat in a game–some times I really do want to knock the crap out of bad guys. Some days, though, I just want the comfort of a good conversation, or get a laugh from party member’s sassy comments.
23/02/2012 at 19:56 karthink says:
If a game has clearly slotted combat and conversation sections, something has gone very wrong in development. Yeah, the Mass Effects count.
The ideal game would have no need for such segregation; see Bastion, for instance.
That said, Bioware is going down the path of interactive movies with clearly distinct shooter bits. I guess these are disparate enough that I can understand wanting to skip either.
23/02/2012 at 19:56 corver says:
So people are suggesting that it would have been great if Portal had been released with the ability to press escape and just walk right through the exit of every test chamber?
23/02/2012 at 20:03 Gabbo says:
That’s not really what’s being suggested at all.
Combat |= puzzle solving in this instance. Maybe the very end of the game[s] where you have to defeat GlaDOS, but otherwise no.
23/02/2012 at 20:06 Xocrates says:
Is it really that hard to grasp the concept that some people may not wish to experience a particular part of a game at a particular moment?
The game is unchanged. YOUR experience is unchanged. This isn’t different from fast fowarding a DVD or reading ahead in a book. You shouldn’t have a reason to do it, but there really isn’t a reason for why you can’t.
23/02/2012 at 22:41 jrodman says:
I think that would have been great.
23/02/2012 at 22:57 corver says:
I’m not especially invested in the larger argument about whether people should be able to skip parts of games they may not enjoy, but there is something that feels wrong about suggesting that developers should be making special effort to allow players to skip core elements of the experience they are trying to create.
Skipping parts of books and movies has nothing to do with this issue. Authors and directors aren’t responsible for making it possible to skip parts of their work. They can’t do anything to prevent people from skipping what they want to, either. A more appropriate analogy might be asking authors to write a sort of outline and index at the end of their novels so that people who don’t care about character development or drama, for example, can simply see a condensed summary of events and skip to the pages with action scenes. The author is being told to write a reduced version of their work without any of the extra fluff (according to whatever you define as fluff) for your convenience.
Portal is relevant here. The puzzles are the part of the game that obstructs you from just getting on with the story. Why is it any different from suggesting that an RPG like Dragon Age should allow you to skip the combat, when the combat is pretty much the “game” part of that title? Sure there’s lots of story and other interaction mechanics, but all of that is built around an RPG with character stats and party-based tactical combat. Bypassing the challenges makes those mechanics pointless.
I fully understand that it would be great to skip combat in some cases. I wouldn’t mind being able to go through Planescape Torment or Baldur’s Gate without having to deal with all the combat parts of those games. I don’t care much for the mechanics of building D&D characters, after all. But those games were based on the adaptation of D&D systems, and expecting the developers to create a disconnected and neutered alternative for people who don’t enjoy the design of the system seems silly.
23/02/2012 at 19:59 Gabbo says:
So long as developers are able to adequately change a game’s narrative per the combat being skipped, it don’t see any problem. Alice: MR had such abilities during the chess sequences later in the game, and I took advantage of them least once. If combat is strictly a break in the linear sequence of the game’s path I don’t see why that would be bad. I myself wouldn’t take such an option, but someone might, and hey good on them.
Now in an RPG, or any game with actual narrative consequences for combat, things get tricky. Does a skip automatically ‘win’ a battle and thus take a specific path? Or can I choose the outcome of the battle so long as ‘game over’ is not one of them? If it lead to developers having to rethink narrative structure, I can only see that as a good thing. But to simply add the option with no forethought into its consequences would be a wasted opportunity.
23/02/2012 at 20:02 Futhark says:
I would have done this for Alan Wake. I thought the story was neat and wanted to see where it went, but quit due to the horrible combat.
23/02/2012 at 20:08 Nate says:
“I think skippable combat is a fantastic idea. I doubt I’d use it very often.”
That’s the thing– I think very few people would.
There’s a tendency to see options like this as “free”– to imagine there’s no cost to them. So why not? But nothing in game design is free. Even in games that already use auto-resolve (games where such a thing is proven possible, where it must either be more desired or easier to implement), it takes a bit of thinking (and a bit of coding) to figure out how to make it work– and even then, auto-resolve is the butt of jokes because of poor implementation! Unless skippable combat IS used often, that’s not worth it.
It’s clear that skippable combat is easier to implement for some kinds of combat. I think that one way to describe the difference is to what extent to combat is analog vs to what extent it is digital. Analog combat, like you find in FPSs, depends entirely on small differences, usually in position, whereas digital combat is more number crunching (just my definitions, for purposes of what I’m saying). The thing, there already are tremendous pressures on game designers to make their combat more digital. It’s much easier to design and playtest– much more difficult to exploit. I’m concerned that a game designer that comes to the table going, “Okay, one of my goals is to have skippable combat” is going to feel additional pressure to making more digital combat systems. Which is not the kind of game I prefer, and I think most of the readership of RPS feels the same way.
23/02/2012 at 20:28 Mokes says:
If you’re going to skip combat you might as well just go and read a Choose Your Own Adventure book.
23/02/2012 at 20:32 Tychoxi says:
Dude, with Deus Ex it isn’t about skipping the Godawful boss fights, the game ALLOWED you to skip most fights and GHOST through it, and I haven’t seen anyone complain. Same goes for many of our most beloved CRPGs, the option to skip combat via dialog/running/stealthing was there and nobody complained. Maybe it’s not about pressing escape to (I remember Anachronox let you “escape” out of some arcadeish parts) skip the fight, but outright allowing you to skip it in a more “organic” way via actual gameplay.
23/02/2012 at 20:35 Jason Moyer says:
Why not just remove the interactivity altogether? Release the game as a 100 hour cutscene with DVD-like controls and scene selection and an option for the good video or the evil video.
23/02/2012 at 20:39 iucounu says:
Because then you would be removing content that most people want and it would be a commercial disaster. Giving people the option to treat a game as a cut-scene DVD isn’t remotely the same as forcing that on everyone. I don’t really see what your point is and I’m grumpy because EVERYONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET TODAY.
23/02/2012 at 20:40 karthink says:
Because most people will want to play through the full experience.
Way to jerk that knee, pal.
23/02/2012 at 20:57 Jason Moyer says:
I just don’t see the point in making games that aren’t games. At this point it seems like it would be cheaper and more profitable for someone like Bioware or Infinity Ward to just release Infocomics.
23/02/2012 at 22:44 jrodman says:
Pack away the straw men and contribute to the conversation like an adult, please.
23/02/2012 at 20:36 wererogue says:
In the few games I’ve played where there was the option to take an easy road (God of War’s “would you like to switch to easy mode”, for example, or L.A. Noire letting your partner drive, or any game with bonus levels) I have tended to find that they induce in me a ZEALOUS DESIRE to FULLY EXPLORE every piece of skippable gameplay. I think it comes out of a fear that if I skip it, I’ll miss out on something good.
So I’d love a “skip combat” option, maybe something that you could enable in the menu and would otherwise not be offered. It would make me take more time to fully understand the combat, to see if there’s anything there which I’d be missing if I skipped it.
23/02/2012 at 20:48 Dhatz says:
That would mean devs must first understand that gameplay and cutscenes are one world and you cant do exclusive maneuvers in either.
23/02/2012 at 20:41 fooga44 says:
If you want to skip combat in a game, that means the game is a bad game and you shouldn’t be playing it. Games require participation, the moment you’re just running from cutscene to cutscene you’re watching a really bad movie.
The article is idiotic because if you want to skip combat that means you are either 1) Non-gamer and 2) Someone who really doesn’t like videogames, just the cinematic presentation within certain games.
Many of us older gamers have had to watch at the dumbing down and cinematization and movie-fication of gaming and it’s taken games off course from interactivity to cater to bottom feeding passives.
If you think skipping combat is a good idea you’re not much of a gamer.
23/02/2012 at 20:50 HothMonster says:
Combat isn’t the only form of gameplay. I would love to be able to replay ME+ME2 without having to trudge through the shooting parts. There would still be a lot of interaction and decision making beyond watching interconnected cut-scenes.
23/02/2012 at 21:41 someone else says:
I thought Planescape Torment was fantastic. Didn’t like the combat at all, so I ran past it whenever I could. I definitely would have liked it a lot less if it had Baldur’s Gate-style “you must gather your party before venturing forth” gating measures.
24/02/2012 at 00:25 fooga44 says:
@someone else
Torment was a commercial failure – it was remembered for the story/characters NOT because it was a good game. The game was basically a novel wrapped in a (poor) game. Huge text heavy conversations that just dragged on and on. Torment would have made a better novel then a game.
We mis-remember the past when we say torment was awesome – it was awesome to a small percentage of nerds and didn’t have the mass appeal of an aesthetic more pleasing to the masses like the tolkien-esque art of forgotten realms.
24/02/2012 at 00:49 someone else says:
Torment being a commercial failure is a misconception; Chris Avellone’s mentioned in several interviews (e.g. Tales of Torment at RPGWatch) that it did make a profit, just not a huge one. I personally consider it a good game with flaws (but what’s flawless?) and if it were a novel I wouldn’t have had the ability to define the personality of the Nameless One or interact with characters in different ways. Your belief that I’m “mis-remembering” is incorrect because I played it for the first time two years ago, and I don’t really care if anything has mass appeal or not as long as it appeals to me.
24/02/2012 at 07:14 fooga44 says:
@someone else
Planescape was a commercial failure (didnt’ sell well enough to justify a sequel). The same thing happened to Freespace 2. Freespace 2 also made a ‘a bit of profit’ but both volition and interplay (before bankruptcy) saw it as a commercial faliure.
Torment didn’t do anywhere near the numbers baldurs gate did, and they were hoping to get those #’s.
24/02/2012 at 14:56 mckertis says:
“Planescape was a commercial failure (didnt’ sell well enough to justify a sequel). The same thing happened to Freespace 2″
How would you (or I) know ? There isnt a single game publisher in the world that would release such information. All the stupid business secresy prevents you from making any meaningful assessment. And we’re talking about big name games here. Are you telling me that even when a publisher decides to tell you the truth about his profits, he will provide information on time range from release date to present time ? Will it include all the reprints ? Digital downloads ?
23/02/2012 at 20:47 Dhatz says:
Seems it’s getting further than Bioware naming ME3 difficulties. I for one could stand combat sections alternable with cinematics if the game’s strife specibus was storykind.
23/02/2012 at 23:20 Dr I am a Doctor says:
the hell does that even mean
23/02/2012 at 21:01 Stevostin says:
“So why can’t the same apply to combat?”
Is it really such a deep question ? Dialog gameplay, no matter how good the lines are (and Bioware certainly is on the top of this specific game) is pretty much a tree that you explore. Sometimes there’s a roll, rarely there’s a destructive decision, one that you can cancel only by reloading… and doing it again, skipping what you need to. That’s how dialogs are made nowadays, even in the most advanced dialog systems (such as Bioware’s one). Because, well, that’s as far as tech goes. There isn’t really such a thing as procedural dialog. You can make procedural maps, you can make AI that make each fight a new combination to explore. You can’t make an AI that make random, different conversation eachtime.
So unless you have a very dull fighting gameplay (actually the case for ME titles, BTW) there’s no huge need to make those skippable. Redoing them is ok, even pleasant. Reading twice the same paragraph in a row isn’t.
Problem solved. Next.
23/02/2012 at 21:01 icedon says:
If you’re going to skip through dialogue/story you might as well just go and play chess.
Gaming entertains. Some people play games for a story, some people like to man-shoot.
23/02/2012 at 22:48 jrodman says:
I may misunderstand your point.
You say that skipping dialogue means you should play chess, but some people want to manshoot. Don’t the people who want to manshoot (and not read story) want to skip through dialogue?
What is the message here.
23/02/2012 at 21:01 Dhatz says:
I came up with idea of standardized unlocks like “IplayedThisGame”, but look how many game studios are disgusted with freedom enough to forget cheats ever existed, or ownership or fairness.
23/02/2012 at 21:05 Smion says:
Didn’t LA Noire totally already have this?
I can’t see how it was negatively affected by this in any way.
23/02/2012 at 21:07 DocSeuss says:
The thing that bothers me about what she said isn’t that you can skip the gameplay to get to the story–as long as the story features gameplay, like Deus Ex: Human Revolution’s conversation battles or Alpha Protocol’s timed conversations, this is fine.
The problem is that she separates game and story as two different things. I think this is bullshit. In a game–a good one, at least, gameplay and story should be intertwined. If you are like “no, the story is the story, and the game is the game,” then you don’t understand good games writing and should probably find a new career.
Look at Half-Life, for instance. The game’s story and its gameplay are one and the same. It doesn’t take time to stop you and tell you a story, then let you play it, then tell you a story, and so on and so forth. How about Thief? That game actually tells a great deal of its story through the NPC dialogs. Who could forget the bear fight discussion in Lord Bafford’s Manor? Not only does it flesh out the world, but it helps you, the player, figure out where guards are so you can sneak past them (I know; you don’t actually sneak past the bear fight guys, but this same thing happens elswhere).
Without its emphasis on combining story and gameplay, System Shock 2 wouldn’t be the greatest game of all time. While the game does have distinct story bits (stuff you pick up and read/listen to), the game is mostly built around telling a story through its sound design (“RRRRRRR KILL MEEEEE!”), level design/AI (making the environment feel like a real space), and the characters who communicate with you (SHODAN, mostly).
Story and gameplay should be fused together, not split apart. I don’t mind the “I don’t really care about the game’s padding” or “do I really have to worry about equipping my character or leveling up?” bits. Those aren’t really important (indeed, LA Noire let you skip the interrogations if you failed them enough, and most RPGs let you autolevel). Not understanding that gameplay and story should be one in the same, or at the very least, complimentary (Max Payne), though? Terrible.
24/02/2012 at 01:06 Hematite says:
You’re totally right about those games you mentioned – the only way to ‘skip’ the combat but still have the story would be to make the combat ridiculously easy but still actually go through the motions because it’s so well integrated.
Sadly, those games are the pinnacle of the art. The rest could use a skip button for the filler combat or unreasonable difficulty spikes.
24/02/2012 at 02:37 fooga44 says:
Half life really didn’t have much of a story at all though, you refute your own point! Half-life was about the player doing things – participating in the gameworld. Story had little to do with it. Half-life was hardly a modern cut-scene fest most games are today. Half-life 1 by todays standards has practically no story at all. You prove once again that a game that gets rid of cut-scenes and only uses narrative sparingly makes for a better game because more resources go to into level design and making sure the combat is fun.
More importantly – the combat, enemy and level design didn’t suck. Most modern games are badly designed from a gameplay standpoint because too many resources are being sucked into AAA hollywood bullshit.
23/02/2012 at 21:12 cHeal says:
Clearly a contentious issue. I’ll give my hopefully brief 2 cents.
While the idea cannot be discounted on merit, it can be discounted on practicality. There simply would not be very much game left if one was to skip the combat (unless it was Final Fantasy…), and I understand the argument that it would not necessarily apply to games now, but new different games, in the future. Or in reality IN THE PAST. Such games have already existed but mostly do not anymore because nobody wants to play them. They were called text adventures. Here is the fundamental problem.
If one was to REMOVE all the actual gameplay from a game and just leave it with cutscenes, it would be a fancy text adventure or MYST or something. Who would buy it? Nobody really. It could not support itself at industry standards. That’s why text adventures and such are niche. So as a middle ground you would consider that perhaps combat /could/ be skipped, but this obviously wouldn’t be mandatory? Everyone is happy yes? No. Because we used have those game too, they were called turn based RPG’s. The combat was basically non-existent. It was already just a series of maths equations taking place in the background. Except for the fact you change weapons and such and the fights took place over a period of time, they were basically skippable combat the extent that it could be implemented without making the game into a movie. If it were implemented as “auto-resolve” like in the total war series, but the player would still have to take part in the game, to SOME extent!
See the reason we don’t skip combat, but maybe do skip dialogue is because we are playing an interactive medium which very often does not have well delivered dialogue. I just have subtitles and read the subtitles and skip to the next line when I have finished reading. Rarely is the acting of a quality that I would listen to it. But I do want to hear the story. But in the end, cutscenes are not interactive, what I can skip are things I cannot change and never could. Dialogue with choices cannot be skipped and that is why the comparison is not fair.
A fairer comparison is between dialogue and travel in RPG’s, and I shall specifically speak of Skyrim here. Skyrim DOES include a “skip” travel option. Why? For the same reason it includes a “skip” dialogue mode, because travel is for the most part a non interactive experience. It’s much ado about nothing. It’s running for many many minutes and often getting bored. And for the exact same reasons people skip dialogue, they skip travel. Because the activity of watching (or travelling) is not engaging enough to justify us sitting through it.
I’m on your side to be honest. Mostly I play games for the narrative and god do I wish games would be shorter so that I might get to the end of the narrative more often, but I would not support a “skip the ‘game part’” option, not because I might be tempted to use it, but because it would influence the game design to include it and I believe it would influence it negatively (with loads of junk cutscenes keeping us up to date with what we have just done-which is why I would imagine some people are getting so angered by her statements – and because of her position of influence.)
But like I said I do wish that games were shorter and they are getting shorter which is great, in the last year i have finished more games, than I had previously, ever. Games like Deadspace and Batman, AA are great and have replay value. Give me that over 80 hours of gameplay which while engrossing will inevitably become tedious and over stories which while clearly epic and brilliant, I will never see the end of. My 2011 game of the Year Witcher 2 is a perfect example. 25 hours of great gameplay, a little cutscene heavy but with great story, locations and great characters so that’s tolerable. A game that’s relatively short for an RPG but which I have played twice for obvious reasons, and will play a third time. That is the answer to the problem of narrative love in an interactive medium, rather than this “skip” proposal.
23/02/2012 at 21:23 equatorian says:
I’ve been playing RPGs since the late 80′s and I support this movement. I certainly would’ve played more games, and spend more money on games, if I could spend bits that are too time-consuming. I hate grinding and would like to skip that. After 40+ hours it’s easy to get tired of combat and sometimes you just want to move past the long, LONG LONG LONG final dungeon and fight the last boss already. There are plenty of platformers that I would’ve loved to play but didn’t, only because I know there’s ALWAYS that one level with difficult jumping that I just can’t do. (I really can’t do jumping, guys, I have problems gauging spatial relationships IRL. Not serious, but there they are.)
A lot of people play adventure games with a walkthrough in hand. That’s akin to skipping all the combat, since they’re skipping all the puzzles and hence most of the ‘gameplay’, just to pursue the story. A story which, I might add, tends to have less interactivity than the standard Bioware game, even though they might be better written. While people do raise eyebrows at them, I don’t see anyone going to war over it if it’s just their way to enjoy the game.
I’m also fine with Visual Novels. I play a lot of them, in fact, including ones that have no ‘dating’ elements whatsoever, which sadly tend not to make it over here. (I don’t know what is so repugnant about having romance in games, either, but please realize that they’re not the be-all-end-all of the genre, despite being the most visible.)
tl;dr, games shouldn’t be about competition or even tests of skills. It’s just fun. And there are many different kinds of fun. Some people have fun with challenges. Some don’t. I think there’s room for everyone, if we could MAKE room.
Also, you know what? If you can skip the combat for the untrained masses, you wouldn’t need to dumb down the combat for the untrained masses. All the complaints about games being dumbed down, right there. Unless developers make the intellectually dubious choice of making combat so easy you can play them with one hand and then add an option of skipping, the hardcore will have their challenge back. Again.
EDIT : Or maybe do like some JRPGs do. Give us a New Game+ button so we can speed through. Nobody’s forced to use it, and it adds to replay value because replay isn’t always necessarily the same fights over and over ad nauseum.
23/02/2012 at 21:29 pilouuuu says:
I’m playing a game where I skipped everything. I skipped downloading it, installing, combat, story and the ending. It’s called Nothing – the game. Really cool! The best thing is I spent no time playing it, but it has been the most avant-garde experience in gaming! Gaming is really art!
23/02/2012 at 22:52 jrodman says:
Sounds interesting. Maybe I should get it.
Would you say it has replay value?
23/02/2012 at 21:30 bhlaab says:
The “Narrative” of the sort Bioware deals in is to put it simply, garbage. It’s something you watch or mildly paw at at best. You skip the carefully scripted and bland melodrama, pick your good/insufferable/evil dialogue option that affects nothing, and you go back to Running Around and Combat which is the part of the game that is an actual game.
Take a look at Fallout New Vegas, now. In that game you can make a point to talk to nobody (hell you can shoot them in the head before they even have a chance to talk to you most of the time!), avoid all combat, and the game’s story still makes perfect sense because in that game the story isn’t what happens it is what you as the player DO. And you can’t skip that because the only way to do that is to not touch the keyboard.
23/02/2012 at 21:33 Det says:
Why not skip combat?
Well, for one, because it’s the main form of demonstration of your advancement in that game.
Whether it’s unchanging combat where it seems that you character does not seem to gain in-game abilities(tetris/multiplayer games) or games where your in-game character advances in capability as the game advances (just about every fucking game ever save for some obscure ass indie title I seriously can’t care about), combat is basically a very easy watermark for “What changed, really?”.
In the first type, it’s your IN REAL LIFE advancement that makes you think “oh I’m not just wasting my time, something is actually happening and I’m getting better at this and this is getting more fun and is still stimulating”. See: tetris speed increase, multiplayer rewards for skill increase (through your better killing of other people).
In the second type, you get stronger as you advance through the story and achieve growth – leveling up, getting more ammo, more party members, what have you. And you get harder enemies, and you blow through them with ease, with the boss battle being highlighted/is harder, etc.
There are some games inbetween – things like military testosterone manshoots, actually. There’s really no growth involved (or even required), of either you as a player or you as an in-game character. I think that’s where the reasons behind “skippable combat” comes to begin with – it’s combat that you don’t like because you, for some reason or another, don’t find it making use of the growth you gained within/through the game.
Things like dragon age 2 combat (why would I kill these same mobs over and over again? enemies need to be stronger as I get stronger, and demonstrate the fact that I got stronger – or at least be fueled by story reasons like in MILITARY MANSHOOTS).
Things like human revolution boss fights (adam’s growth in computer science is no match for CYBORG MERCENARY MAN’S ridiculous auto-targetting and an enclosed room with typical explosive barrels).
So why not skip these “bad combats”?
Because combat itself is the thing that stimulates growth, and letting the player skip it would in some way induce artificial growth – which detaches the player from the game and really gives incentive to just “read” the game rather than “play” the game, and I believe this growth itself is the core to video games and what differentiates videogames from books/movies/novels/etc.
As terrible as the boss fights in HR was, it very much gave a way for players to measure their “combat effectiveness”, if you will. It was very much a “HEY IF YOU DON’T LEVEL COMBAT AND CARRY THESE WEAPONS YOU’LL DIE”. It forces players to go a certain direction – which drew a flurry of negative responses.
But I still wouldn’t skip it.
Because skipping it means that the credits that I’d get for beating the bosses/their loot/etc would either
A: have to be handed to me through some artificial means (even something as non-flow blowing as altair comes from behind a pillar and stabs the dude)
B: there was no reward for beating the boss to begin with
In the first scenario, it presents the inevitability that what you do in the game is irrelevant – that the game really is just a “whore” to entertain you, if you will, and that there is a “wink wink” agreement that your in-game character is really irrelevant and your will is absolute. I think it’s disgusting.
In the second scenario, the game doesn’t reward you for beating the boss, and you run into the manshoot problem of “well what’s the point of killing this tank if all I get is a stupid cutscene and I don’t really kill these man I have to shoot any better than before”.
The scenario that HR originally had, is C – you have to spec a certain way and you basically have to fight a certain way.
I’m not going to say that it was very much fun all the way through, but at least you were shown that you were getting better at it.
What if you disliked the ENTIRE COMBAT AS IT IS IMPLEMENTED AND EVERY ASPECT OF IT?
Well, play another game. You can read the story on youtube through a playthrough video. Play through the quicktime events with a controller in your hand pretending you hit the button just as the guy who played it hit it.
I guess the only legitimate excuse I might accept of skipping combat would be if the combat systems themselves change completely (like TIN PIN SLAMMERS in TWEWY where being better at tps is completely irrelevant to the other – the game actually basically lets you skip all instances of tin pin slammers after the tutorial, by the way).
So why do I think combat, and associated growth/demonstration of such growth, is the key thing that makes videogames videogames?
Because I think gameplay has genuine “thing” in differentiating games from “interactive experiences” or “books” or “movies”.
I haven’t read many books or watched many movies or even played that many games, but WHATEVER
PS if any of this doesn’t make sense it’s because I’m ANGERY and MAD
PPS I don’t skip cutscenes without watching it at least once either why would people do that
23/02/2012 at 21:41 Miltrivd says:
I can’t agree more (pretty nice video as well).
Customers, or rather, players, should be able to enjoy the experience any way they want. I like the idea of skippable combat because of that, it gives choice. Choice is ALWAYS a good thing.
Possible outcomes I see from this:
a) There is more thought into story and writing put into games, since you can lure audience that want just that, a good story, so we could see a spike of coherent, well thought plots that can hold themselves without the combat giving a good experience for the skippers and much better one for the full on gamers.
b) Gameplay and combat has been eased up (dumbed down) quite hard since the console generation started (due casual players and wider market target), but since combat could be avoided, we could start seeing “Hard” difficulties that are actually hard instead of being the old “Normal”. That’s good news for hardcore/old school/niche gamers that like a challenge when playing a game. That’s pretty optimistic tho, since it could be very well be the other way around to avoid people skipping it, due to my next point.
c) Real extra content would need to be added to extend games, since repetitive combat scenes, fetch quest, arbitrary number increase of enemies to give more game-time to an already dried up game wouldn’t cut it, since all of that can be avoided. You would see real plot lenght, with variations in both story and combat, since people would be curious about the next combat section if it’s something new, before skipping it.
d) It could produce a new trend in which story is told as actions are made, instead of the (for me) already too old format of cut scenes, standing dialogue and wall of text briefings.
I don’t see many negative outcomes. I am hoping for this.
24/02/2012 at 15:04 mckertis says:
“Choice is ALWAYS a good thing.”
No its not. There was an example of Stone Soup on the earlier pages, and i agree with it. The game doesnt allow the player to sell items, because otherwise EVERYONE would haul everything that isnt bolted down to the shops. I know i would, i do it in other games, like ADOM. But in Crawl i cannot. And its totally fine, its not a worse off game for NOT having that choice.
Same with quicksaves. If the game has quicksaves – players will abuse them. I know i would, i do it in other games, like when i play on emulators. But in other games i cannot. And its totally fine. I cant say its definitely better one way or the other, but having a choice is NOT always a good thing.
23/02/2012 at 21:44 MDefender says:
The gameplay in ME is mind numbing enough to be indistinguishable from the dull, poorly written dialogue anyway, so hey. Something to think about. But in game worlds that actually require active participation from the player to navigate and fight in, it doesn’t work.
It’s a game everyone on this site must be tired of seeing name dropped by now, not to mention being held up in lopsided comparisons, but damnit: you wouldn’t skip a mission in Deus Ex.
23/02/2012 at 21:55 Apolloin says:
The problem is that nine times out of ten the combat action and the cutscenes are completely divorced from each other. This is especially true in shooter games that also like to maintain the illusion that they contain a storyline. We’ll leave aside the fact that a character who could carry out complex mission objectives having killed that many sophonts must be a high-functioning sociopath and focus on the feeling that the combat and the narrative frequently feel utterly divorced.
The reason for this feeling is that, by and large, they absolutely are. Frequently the set piece combat encounters are predicated by the combat assets that have been defined for the game and that often they are designed well in advance of, not only the environments they will take place in, but very far in advance of everything but the highest level storyline pass. Often chunks of the game will not make it into the final product due to scheduling and resource issues and these gameplay segments will be yanked up out of their now non-existent settings and shoe horned into existing areas.
Even the ingame speech, those cookie cutter single sentence exclamations, are often written by a completely different person and at a completely different time from the cut scenes. Quite often the people designing the combat don’t see the cutscenes much before paying public.
How could it possibly feel seamless?
23/02/2012 at 21:56 Envinyon says:
My two cents: I see a lot of people saying that “combat is sometimes boring, so sometimes I want to skip it”. Well, that would be a poorly designed game then. And having the option to skip combat would seem like it would encourage developers to not make combat interesting and just say “don’t like the combat? then skip it”.
Wanting to skip any part of a game means there is a flaw in the design. So being able to skip something is like the developer saying “Yeah, it’s boring, but we can’t be bothered to actually make it good, so just skip it”.
Skipping dialogue was only put in so that when people are playing a game a second time, they can skip it, since they already know what’s going to happen, and they can get to the meat of the game. What kind of idiot skips dialogue or cutscenes their first time through the game? Skipping gameplay is a whole different philosophy altogether. If you want to skip it, then it’s flawed. If you don’t like gameplay at all (As Jennifer Hepler has stated) then why are you even playing video games? Go read a book and stop ruining my hobby.
If you ask me, skipping content will only encourage developers to not spend time making quality content.
24/02/2012 at 01:23 Hematite says:
The counterargument to ‘skippable combat will make developers lazy’ is that if the developers get lazy their games won’t sell. Even as it stands, being lazy is economically beneficial for developers if they can get away with it because it reduces development time.
I personally hope that skippable combat would make developers more focused – either do a good job and make the combat a selling point of your game, or cut it back enough that it doesn’t interfere with the parts of your game that ARE selling points.
The current fashion for having a certain amount of filler combat which isn’t fun or rewarding is a blight on the industry.
23/02/2012 at 22:08 cheesetruncheon says:
I’d like to just make a point… I get personally offended whenever a game tells me I’m not good enough to play it.
See: L.A Noire, Donkey Kong Country Returns.
I know I suck at video games, but I’m not going to take the easy way out, I’m gonna persevere and in the end I will win and i’ll be a better gamer for it.
If you have a skip game function in a game… don’t tell me all the god damn time.
23/02/2012 at 22:58 jrodman says:
I also get offended when a game tells me I suck.
However, I have a different attitude about playing. I know I’m not very good at most of these things and so I’m happy to pick the easiest possible options. If I get bored I can increase the difficulty until there’s some meat there.
I don’t ever want to see the game saying “you suck too much, how about we lower the difficulty?” because I want to have chosen the Hard experience if I get it at all.
But the really infuriating one is not even *allowing* me to pick easy until i mess up enough, then telling me I suck and offering easy.
Some games make this extremely stupid. In God of War, as I recall, I had to mess up again in each zone to get the easy to unlock again. So I would just charge into enemies and die 8 times in row or whatever. Is this a good way for me to spend my time as a player?
Let the player choose the experience that fits them, dammit. Don’t hide easy behind an unlockable taunt-prompt.
24/02/2012 at 01:12 Bork Titflopsen says:
This, so much this.
I’ve been playing Kingdoms of Amalur a lot lately and I hate it when that happens.
I know there is an easier difficulty and had I felt the need to play it I would’ve chosen that one. But I didn’t, I chose the hard difficulty knowing it is harder than all the other difficulties because that’s what the bloody name implies!
The most frustrating thing here is not even that the game is hard -which it isn’t due to crafted gear being improperly balanced- but that I am absolutely horrible at dispelling curses on chests and I’m too stubborn and too much of a loot-whore to let a chest go by unchecked and the dispelling isn’t getting any easier because it’s based on timing.
I don’t want the game to pause, pop up a big message telling me I’m stupid and urging me to play on an easier difficulty, because it isn’t going to get any easier for me. I just can’t get the hang of dispelling chests. They could’ve easily spent less time and recources making a small, inconspicuous message that pops up on the top of your screen that would’ve been just as effictive but a heck less annoying.
Better yet: Add it as a line of text that get’s displayed at the bottom of loading screens.
And just to be clear, I’m neither a hardcore or a casual player, I’m just a guy who doesn’t like being treated like he’s an idiot.
23/02/2012 at 22:11 Deepmist says:
As some one who went back to play some Mass Effect 2 recently and frustratingly couldn’t skip most of the intro scenes. I want to skip story because it doesn’t change the second time around for the most part. The actual game play can be different every time. I was going to go for the level 30 achievement by starting a new game plus but got sick of waiting on the un-skippable story.
23/02/2012 at 22:17 Nic Clapper says:
In Machinarium theres an option to play a mini-game to see images that reveal how to solve the puzzles. This isnt exactly the same as a skip, but it was an ingame helper that I ended up using more then a few times. And, as neat of and idea as it was its something that obviously made solving the puzzles less of an accomplishment. Normally I woulda kept messing around with whatever puzzle until I figured it out regardless of how nonsensical the puzzle was, and would have been much more satisfied knowing I figured it out. But, with that helper RIGHT there, I would go to it. Instead of it being a game of challenging puzzles, it became more a challenge of will to not do the mini game.
That kind of thing would easily apply to skippable battles. You seem to think that a skip option wouldnt effect people like me who dont want to skip, but it most certainly would. Battles too hard…well instead of sticking it out and feeling accomplished…I could just hit the ol skip button….its RIGHT THERE…and its not even a cheat!
Of course skipping levels through the console or something similar is already generally possible in games. But, that clearly feels like cheating. You are going way out of your way and outside the game a bit to do this. But, an ingame skip….it would be just too easy to give up and hit it. It WOULD change game experiences for me..for the worse.
Theres also the problem of games being developed differently depending on the popularity of the skip mechanic. It certainly could make some future games have less put into the combat. Just look at “QTE’s”. Thinking about that…we’re kinda already getting there. Yuck.
23/02/2012 at 22:24 smagnus says:
I seriously can’t understand people who prefer to play games in such manner. The game industry almost never released games with really good dialogues + script + characters + storyline. You can count them on one hand. Even now I have trouble to pull a random name of such game from the memory.
When was the last time the industry released something like Inception or Shutter Island for example? Or an epic drama like Titanic?
Most game industry voice actors are bad, writers and scenarists are even worse.
An AAA video game sold at almost 10 times cost of a cinema ticket, and if people prefer to throw their money listening to Dragon Age 2 storyline instead of going to watch a movie – these people don’t need to play videogames, and don’t need to tell other people how videogames should work.
23/02/2012 at 23:02 jrodman says:
No manner of playing videogames is actually under discussion. There is simply the idea of a modification to the options present for combat sections of videogames.
If you wish to comment on a particular manner of playing games, you will have to define what that manner is.
24/02/2012 at 00:13 smagnus says:
my point is that there is no reason to implement such option in today’s gamedev state. a pure or half-pure visual novel of Dragon Age, Mass Effect or Deus Ex would be just too boring to watch and listen, needless to say it wouldn’t worth ~60$.
24/02/2012 at 04:49 jrodman says:
Well, I haven’t played Dragon Age, so I can’t comment on whether a visual novel version of that game would be compelling. However, no one is advocating for a visual novel version of Dragon Age, so it’s quite perplexing that you are spending arguing against it.
24/02/2012 at 10:30 smagnus says:
it’s not only about dragon age (i’m not from the game haters, i think it’s quite fine actually), it’s about all the modern (and not modern too) games.
let me represent my point this way:
a person who decides to completely disable the combat, what he’s going to receive from the game then? cheesy dialogues with 3 response types (yes-no-alternative) , predictable boring story, bad voice acting?
the game industry just not mature enough to have such privilege of allowing player to completely skip half of the game, because the other half, most of the times, is simply not good enough by it’s own.
23/02/2012 at 22:37 FRIENDLYUNIT says:
I dont even know why this is such a big thing. OF COURSE people play video games in different ways and for different reasons. Why would we stop them?
Surely the personal attacks bit is the only reason this is being actually discussed. Because, well difficulty settings (and what Hereticus said in another comment about there being a level of specificity of the difficulty you are adjusting if the game is also suitably complex is very valid – and good example!).
23/02/2012 at 22:39 DarlingDildo says:
L.A. Noire has skippable combat.
23/02/2012 at 22:45 Tams80 says:
That Dara Ó Briain skit is brilliant. I saw it live and was delighted when he started it.
23/02/2012 at 22:55 T_L_T says:
Hmmmm…
If you have the option to skip the combat in games, even if you don’t have to, there is still an effect to people who don’t. It psychologically devalues the game for the player
In a game you start at the beginning and are rewarded for your skill at the game to unlock progress throughout. This then becomes your own personal narrative through the game.
If you get past a particularly demanding section based on your skill (even if not much skill is needed on an easy mode) the feeling of accomplishment would be diminished if all it took was to press escape to do it.
One of my favourite games from last year was Dark Souls, which demands attention, skill and commitment from the player and as a result I found it to be one of the most enjoyable and rewarding experiences for a long time. If that had a skip combat button the game itself would be ruined.
Not all games or gamers are the same of course, but I do think that not being able to access all the content of a game at first switch on really helps with the motivation to play it!
I still remember the disappointment I had with Singstar when I realised there wasn’t anything to unlock as a reward for being good at the game!
23/02/2012 at 23:05 jrodman says:
Good example. Dark Souls certainly would not work with such a button being present for even a relatively small number of its challenges.
But I don’t think this is a suggestion that every game with every design should adopt such an idea.
23/02/2012 at 23:08 Nic Clapper says:
“even if you don’t have to, there is still an effect to people who don’t. It psychologically devalues the game for the player”
Absolutely. Would become more a game of will to not press the skip button instead of a game of challenging encounters to beat.
23/02/2012 at 23:15 municipalis says:
I can’t believe people are actually arguing that games shouldn’t come with different options for different players. It’s as idiotic as the people who argue “Games shouldn’t have cheats because they ruin the fun!”. Since when did you become the Grand Arbiter of fun?
I get the sense that the people who object to these (completely optional!) options are acting out of some sort of weird snobbish status-protectionist instinct concerning the “art” of gaming much the sameway that book snobs used to decry paperbacks for being too un-literary.
Essentially that by opening up literature (or games) to a mass(er) market audience will somehow affect their own enjoyment of it – by virtue that they can no longer claim distrinction over those who are unable (rather than unwilling) to partake in their lesiure activity.
It’s as pathetic as it is absurd.
23/02/2012 at 23:16 ElPoco says:
Rise of the Dragon had skippable combat. Lose three times in a row in one of the combat mini-game and you were offered the option to skip the combat.
23/02/2012 at 23:25 jryan says:
The way I see it, not being able to skip the conversations is like having to start a book over from the beginning every time you pick it up.
Combat is at least somewhat different every time you run through it.
On consoles, however, or PC games that have “save points” rather than a free save-where-you-like I find myself wanting to skip EVERYTHING up to where I last died.
23/02/2012 at 23:41 municipalis says:
Not really. Whether it’s jumping on a guy, shooting a guy, or dodging a boss’ laser attack, combat sequences can be pretty repetitive, regardless of their actual difficulty. You might personally find them exciting, but there’s certainly been games where I’ve gone more-or-less on autopilot to get through the combat and see what happens next (Halo is a good example; but then the story got so bad I gave up on the whole experience).
23/02/2012 at 23:25 nootpingu86 says:
Nice job fishing for clicks and comments. Commendable effort.
It’s still not a good idea.
24/02/2012 at 01:33 Hematite says:
Well, I can’t argue with that.
23/02/2012 at 23:36 E_FD says:
The Typhoon aug in DX:HR might as well be called the Skip Stupid Boss Fights Aug, because that’s it’s main use.
I can certainly understand the skipping combat sentiment; I played through Witcher 2 at the easiest difficulty because I was playing for the plot, and I generally give myself max stats so I can skip past the fighting when periodically replaying Planescape Torment, though in both cases, these are games that have rather clunky, questionably-designed combat anyway.
On the flipside, the vast majority of games, even the ones considered “well-written”, have plots that are only satisfying as a framework for the gameplay itself. Or, perhaps more egregiously, they have plots that are themselves completely linear and involve no gameplay at all, such that removing the combat would basically turn the entire thing into one big, non-interactive cutscene. I can’t imagine a game with skippable combat being at all satisfying unless the plot involved a huge amount of branching choices and consequences, and some sort of system akin to the conversation battles in the latest Deus Ex.
23/02/2012 at 23:44 Fiwer says:
What if they made a game that didn’t have any combat at all? Instead, you could sit in a big dark room with a bunch of strangers and watch a long cutscene. Truly, that would be the ultimate game.
24/02/2012 at 01:37 Hematite says:
If you’re playing a game which is only fighting and cutscenes, and you’d want to use a skip button on ALL the fighting you’re already in gaming hell.
23/02/2012 at 23:46 nootron says:
John, I feel like your article was written to cause drama, despite your implied impartiality of the subject at hand.
First, you decided to bring Helper into this, and so you are partially responsible for the vitriol being tossed at her.
Second, you begin with the premise that “combat should be skippable (because it isnt right now).
I have been skipping combat in games for a long time. Total War anyone? Final Fantasy, Ultima, etc, avoiding open area combat is/was a skill in those games.
So lets get off our high horse of journalism here and step down to a more appropriate start to the article:
What types of content and how much content should games typically allow?
If you had started with that instead of “JENNIFER HELPER SAID YOU SHOULD SKIP COMBAT AND I AGREE AND PLZ DONT FLAME HER!”, we might have started off on a better foot here.
24/02/2012 at 01:46 Hematite says:
Having not heard of Jennifer Hepler before this article I didn’t see anything particularly inflammatory in what John wrote. I guess there’s ill-feeling spilling over into RPS from whatever’s happening on the rest of teh internets.
It’s an interesting point that dialogue is often skippable and combat rarely is (bar cheat codes and similar meta-gaming), if only as a signal of how the gaming industry views itself and the different aspects of what it creates.
re: the balance of different types of content in a game – a skip combat button’s best use is to tune the balance to whatever the particular player likes. Even the best devs can’t always get it right because people have different tastes in combat style, difficulty and duration. See all of the combat tweak mods for the recent Bethesda games.
24/02/2012 at 00:02 Mman says:
One annoying argument that keeps coming up is the idea that if someone dislikes an aspect of a game and wants to skip it then there’s something objectively wrong with it; I’ve loved nearly everything about games/parts of games that many other people dislike, and also disliked games/parts of games I know many people love, and most of the time it’s nothing but personal opinion. If someone really dislikes a certain aspect of a game it’s frequently not a statement on that aspect’s quality at all. What makes this especially bothersome is that the same people who say this are frequently the same ones who complain about games nowadays trying to be all things for everyone. So apparently games compromising their vision to please more people is wrong, yet, if any single aspect of a game doesn’t appeal to everyone who plays it, there can be no reason other than it being Objectively Bad.
24/02/2012 at 00:04 Jim9137 says:
Screw combat, skip walking, please.
24/02/2012 at 00:23 municipalis says:
That’s an excellent analogy:
Are the people against a ‘skip combat’ option also against, say, a ‘fast travel’ option in Skyrim? It is, after all, an essential component of gameplay: it’s how you find so many landmarks, quests, people, items, and interesting bits of lore.
But I don’t think anyone would argue that the fast travel option should be removed: even if you avoid using it, sometimes your patiences wears thin and you just want to get on with the rest of the game.
Now what if Skyrim added an option to ‘skip’ the combat – say you turn on the option and anytime you entered a dungeon you’d get a prompt “Would you like to skil the combat for this section? All hostile characters will die the second you hit them and you will be invulnerable”?
I would never use that, but I see no reason to object to it. Heck, maybe I would use it to skip some of the early grind when I re-roll a character.
24/02/2012 at 01:57 Hematite says:
Good points, both of you. The fast travel in Skyrim is an interesting example because I quite like the way it’s implemented – you can only fast travel somewhere after you’ve legged it the first time. That wandering around is a big part of what makes Skyrim a great game for me.
In fact, when I started playing Skyrim I deliberately declined to use fast travel, or even the world map as a reference to enhance the feeling of being in a big, new world. I loved it!
But on the other hand, it got old after only about 20 hours, and now I fast travel with the best of them. And in fact, on additional playthroughs (I tend to start multiple characters with different builds rather than levelling up a single character to be great at everything) I’d much rather just be able to fast travel anywhere instantly. I already did the trek with a previous character and there’s little enjoyment to be had from being forced to do it again.
So even though I enjoyed an unusually strict restriction on travel to start with, I am solidly in favour of player choice. The only problem is that it puts more responsibility on the developers to highlight different potential play styles so that the player can pick the one they like best.
24/02/2012 at 20:01 Jim9137 says:
Incidentally, it is not a huge problem in Skyrim. Compare it to games like Mass Effect, which certainly have nice set pieces – on the first walkthrough. When you are doing the sidequests, you’ll be going through the same corridors, hearing the same conversations, seeing the same textures over and over and over again. And the net benefit? You feel kind of nice when you first walk in. I suspect most of the playing time is spent upon walking (or holding the up key down), than actual gameplay.
But I’m grumpy and old and picky about how I spent my time. How dare games reduce my RPS browsing time so needlessly
24/02/2012 at 00:12 automata says:
Shouldn’t the issue be addressing what’s bad about game mechanic/game element x and making it fun, rather than figuring out ways to eliminate it, or even focusing on making a game that does not have element x in it at all?
I can understand skipping dialogues in games: most of them are at best written at a mediocre level and are generally boring; they contain nothing of importance that isn’t summarized into your journals that you can read in a fraction of the time it takes to wade through the (usually) overwritten dialogue; they are repeated exactly the same with each play-through, and some lines are often looped so you hear them repeatedly if you don’t; and they’re voice-acted in most modern games, so listening to stuff which you’ve already read and absorbed is a waste of time.
And the biggest bugbear of all: they are not really that interactive. Games are principally about interactive entertainment, so if dialogue is so limited, then it’s not meeting the expectations of interactivity, then it’s going against what you expect from a game.
Or, you know, maybe that person just doesn’t want that type of game. Which is fair, games don’t have to be for everyone; but the developers and publishers should make it abundantly clear what they’re focusing on so you know what you’re getting into; then it’s your fault for picking it up. There should be games being made to cater for people who don’t want to have to wait for Boring NPC #37 to get through their dialogue tree; and if there’s not, then there’s a problem with the market.
This doesn’t mean that you design your game for dialogue to be skipped for people who want it though.
If you do, then just do everyone a favour and remove dialogue altogether, and focus on making a good non-dialogue experience. Otherwise you have to spend development time and energy ensuring that gameplay and everything is balanced for two or more types of players;
The same thing with combat. There are plenty of games where combat encounters are easily winnable, or just boring and tedious, especially today with health regeneration and the like. That means that you should either work on those systems to make them more enjoyable, or you cut them out. Otherwise you’re spreading your focus too far with trying to be all things to all players, and you’re going to end up with a mediocre product.
And this is why John’s idea is just so awful for future games. A game should not strive to be “all things to all people”, nor should a movie, a book, a song, a piece of art; trying to cater one thing to everyone will generally leave everyone unsatisfied. But this is what his argument essentially entails. (Funnily enough, people have attributed this response to “gamer entitlement” when this issue – adding a separate game mode or feature solely for a proportion of gamers and non-gamers that aren’t really interested in the game’s gameness – really is the height of entitlement.)
And that’s setting aside the fact that there’s already ways for you to avoid having to engage in the combat in games. Watch a Let’s Play of it online. Grab a friend who likes that part and get them to play those parts if you want more interactivity. Or, you know, just not play the game and play something else or do something else entirely different.
24/02/2012 at 02:04 Hematite says:
The problem with just getting the devs to work harder on making all the game systems fun (apart from the fact that it’s what they should be doing anyway right now, and it’s not happening in practice) is that the perfect balance of different game elements depends partly on player preference. Even if the systems are flawlessly implemented some players would be happier with only 80% of the amount of shooty bits relative to talky bits. Or 120%.
It’s hard to argue that taking choice away from players will improve their experience of the game, even in a perfect world.
24/02/2012 at 00:16 Ashen says:
Wow, I really expected better from RPS.
So, why not have skippable combat? Because such as it is, combat sequences form the main backbone of vast majority of games, certainly every single Bioware game ever made. While in the past decade games made some good progress in integrating storytelling with gameplay, such a magic button would only serve to throw that out of the window and push games further into the realm of discrete chunks (combat-cutscene-combat-cutscene-credits roll; which admittedly is still the structure for a lot of games).
All in all, making the interactivity optional in what is an interactive medium doesn’t seem like the right idea. And for those saying that it’s all well if it’s optional – yeah, right. Some people do have restraint when it comes to creating their own experience, but most will gravitate towards the path of no resistance. There’s a reason Doom doesn’t tell you to press IDDQD at the start of the game.
24/02/2012 at 00:20 KaMy says:
Dialogues should be skipable for one main reason, when you do the game more than once (or when you die / save / quit / crash in a games that only have auto saves that never saves after but always before 5 min long videos :coolface: ) you want to be able to get past long dialogues without being forced to wait for it. Just as it should be for cut scenes, intro videos etcetc.
That mode lately wich consist of forcing you to see cut scenes, wait for character to red their text or animted menus taking ages to do a simple action sucks. I’d rather go back to good old non spoken dialogues and static but charming menus poping in 1/4 secondes even in RPGs.
24/02/2012 at 12:52 bill says:
Combat should be skipable for the same reason – especially in games that have multiple endings. Sure, maybe I enjoyed (or not) fighting 1bajilion kobolds the first time through, but this time I just want to find out what could have been different.
24/02/2012 at 00:25 Post-Internet Syndrome says:
Some games have combat difficulty separated from general difficulty so you can adjust them separately. That’s a fine idea and more games should do it.
On the general topic of allowing players to access any part of the game they like, I do sympathize with those who just want to get to the juicy bits, but would like to reserve the right for the games who want it to retain that competitive element. If you were not forced to complete levels in super meat boy for instance, you would not be provoked into replaying again and again and then be rewarded with all those 40 simultaneous replays of all your attempts. (It can be noticed though that SMB has a smart system where you only need to finish a certain number of a world’s levels to access the boss level, so if there are individual levels that you just can’t manage, you can skip them without penalty.)
The competitiveness, the “beating” of a game is sometimes the whole point, and I would like games to keep that element, in spite of – or rather because – it making them different from other media. It’s also not wholly unique; there are art installations that demand a great deal from their audience in order to appreciate them.
I wouldn’t have a problem with a system where you could choose to jump to any level in a game, but doing so without first unlocking it the regular way would disable achievements. That would maintain the integrity of achivements for people who care about those.
Just some scattered thoughts.
24/02/2012 at 02:15 Hematite says:
You’ve got a good point about some games only making sense as a ludicrous challenge. I think those kinds of games will always be around because sometimes you just want a challenge and they’re perfectly honed for that purpose.
Happily over the years that kind of arcadey game has become such a definite niche that it isn’t usually burdened with any ‘fluff’ which doesn’t relate directly to the core gameplay – so you either play it because you like the one trick it offers, or you play something else. (there seem to be some other posters around here today who think this is the only ‘real’ kind of game)
Just throwing ideas around, I can even see it being perfectly possible to have that kind of game with content-skipping, although I think it would require some kind of ‘ranked mode’ where you’d have to play strictly by the book, as compared to ‘tourist mode’ where you could level warp and mess around with all the content.
Edit: on re-reading, I see my last paragraph is basically what you said. Serves me right for writing a reply without paying enough attention to the original.
24/02/2012 at 00:30 jplayer01 says:
Thank you for writing this article. It sums up everything that’s wrong with, well, everything I can think of.
24/02/2012 at 00:56 d34thm0nk3y says:
Being able to skip combat would be extremely detrimental to the stories of so many excellent games.
In a good game, the combat should REINFORCE the story of the game. If you want to skip the combat, then the game is either doing something wrong or the game just isn’t for you.
24/02/2012 at 00:59 wearedevo says:
“The idea that someone would play the utterly brilliant Dragon Age and skip the conversations feels monstrous to me.”
There was an utterly brilliant Dragon Age? Can somebody link me!? I only played the mediocre one that Bioware put out a couple years back.
24/02/2012 at 01:05 Pantzed says:
Wow. Talk about out of control fan entitlement on both sides of this argument.
The gaming industry is booming. And like all booming industries, it will continue to evolve. It will produce some games that let you skip dialogue. It may even produce a few games that let you skip combat.
Completely regardless of people screaming on forums, some systems will be successful in the marketplace and perpetuate. If the system/genre you happen to advocate falls flat on its face or is replaced by another, take heart. There is always indie gaming.
*sniff sniff* Smell that? It’s capitalism. And it works.
24/02/2012 at 02:27 Hematite says:
You’re right that the games industry will continue to evolve, but because of its incestuous nature it won’t necessarily diversify – there will inevitably be fads in game design, and dead-ends that will be consigned to history eventually (fingers crossed for 0-day DLC and social network integration to meet that fate).
I believe that by brainstorming and discussing what’s good and bad about game design trends in a public forum like RPS we can influence the direction of the industry. Not the guys who write cheques at EA, but quite a lot of indie developers hang around here, and so do some of the big guys (Ken Levine mentioned it in his recent interview I think). Talking about this stuff sensibly can only make the industry more healthy by showing that there’s interest from a discerning audience, and giving the forward-thinking devs some ideas and reassurance about new design directions which will set the trends for future mainstream development.
24/02/2012 at 10:00 Prime says:
“*sniff sniff* Smell that? It’s capitalism. And it works.”
You mean the system that’s slowly destroying itself right in front of our eyes, with banks and businesses dying left right and centre, with markets in chaos, with entire countries on the verge of economic collapse…you mean that capitalism?
24/02/2012 at 19:50 Pantzed says:
You’re absolutely right. Due to the current turbulence, people are going to drop this concept known as “Ownership” and everything will belong to everyone.
Or, or! Each and every one of us will be a completely independent and self sufficient entity. No more trading goods and services for other goods and services around here! If you don’t already have it or can make it yourself, well, then you don’t get it.
Set sSarcasmLevel=0
Stepping back to the real world: Even were the bombs to fall tomorrow, and assuming some vestige of humanity survives to see this post apocalyptic landscape, I can absolutely assure you that there would be some sort of tradesmen who would craft goods or provide services to sell in exchange for other goods. When these tradesmen realized that there was more demand for good ‘X’ and it provided higher value to more people than good ‘Y’, I can again assure you that most tradesmen in the craft of ‘X’ and ‘Y’ would indeed skew their time and effort more towards ‘X’.
24/02/2012 at 01:10 Dominic White says:
I’m not sure about skippable combat, per se, but one of my favourite games in recent years (hell, ever!) – Bayonetta – had something even better.
Now, Bayonetta is famous for being a hard game. A very involved one, too – it’s an extremely deep and complex modern-day brawler. The ultimate evolution of Streets of Rage, with a move-list as long as both your arms and shocking amounts of subtlety. The higher difficulty levels will ruin you unless you’ve played for dozens of hours.
The easiest difficulty setting makes it accessible even to complete non-gamers. While you feel like you’re in control of the character – she moves where you point, and attacks when you press the button – the finer details are all being handled by a very capable AI that plays like an expert-grade player. Hold the stick towards an enemy and mash the kick button and it’ll automatically string together the most impressive kick-centric combo it can, automatically dodging and parrying any incoming attacks all the while.
You basically get all the spectacle of the combat, and see all the moves, all the weapons and all the enemies, but without any of the frustration or lengthy learning curve. The only negative aspect is that if you play in this mode, you don’t get ranked on the scoreboards. Understandable, really, as it’s not really ‘you’ that’s playing, so it provides some incentive for folks to come back and try it on Easy or even Normal mode.
It’s the best of all worlds. Everyone wins, everyone comes away happy and with a challenge level they’re happy with, without losing out on any of the meat of the game. So yeah, I’d be in favor of seeing something like that in more games.
24/02/2012 at 12:58 bill says:
As with many points raised here, what would be a good solution tends to vary depending on the game.
Some games would work with simplified controls, others with easy difficulty, others with “skip if difficult” and others do work with automated combat results. Some wouldn’t work with any.
For example, I don’t think that kind of thing would work with an RPG with lots of filler/random battles… because you’d still have to work through all of them, just with less risk of failure. But the risk of failure wasn’t the issue in the first place… it was the repetitiveness and time-consuming nature.
I personally would never skip combat in Ninja Gaiden, but would skip it often in Baldur’s Gate / Final Fantasy and would skip it from time to time at the end of Jade Empire. I wouldn’t skip it in Deus Ex the first time, but i might in a second playthrough to see alternate endings.
It all depends…
24/02/2012 at 01:53 Xfraze says:
I think that having the option to skip segments of gameplay is not a bad idea at all. I love games that are broken up into chapters so I can play a chapter when I want. Usually I go in order, but there are time where I may have played the game in the past and just want to go through it again to collect items or other things and the gameplay proves to be tedious.
I hope that if this trend becomes popular, developers won’t focus on story and give gameplay a back seat to story, because ultimately, what I’m playing/paying for is an interactive experience.
If gameplay gets cut at the expense of story, then we wouldn’t have games like bastion which managed to blend everything together into a great experience, or uncharted 3.
24/02/2012 at 03:24 Jahkaivah says:
I’ve been having this very thing on my mind before I noticed this article.
Thing is, this wouldn’t actually be at all groundbreaking.
Plenty of RPGs and turn based strategy games already have some manner of “auto-play” feature that essentially lets an AI carry out your moves for you. Total War games for example allowed you to auto-play each combat sequence and determine the outcome of the fight.
The key thing is that auto-play features work best when there are drawbacks for not fighting efficiently. In a traditional RPG, if you might be able to choose to auto fight and consequently lose a chunk of HP because the AI doesn’t play as well as you do, but if you were to take control you could reduce the damage taken greatly. This gives people who aren’t fans of combat their skip button without trivialising the efforts of those who are fans of combat.
Of course this wouldn’t work as well in your typical modern Bioware game as all the damage from the fights tend to regenerate away afterwards.
24/02/2012 at 03:50 Runs With Foxes says:
But that’s not the same as skipping the combat. There are still consequences for your strategic and tactical choices, and the outcomes are determined by a number of factors tracked by the game. You’re still playing the game.
What Hepler and others are suggesting is that you should be able to play Bioware games only for the story. No need to choose character builds, no need to customise stats or weapons or combat abilities, no need to think about the game part in any way. Just skip from cutscene to dialogue option to cutscene. That’s not a game, and even the most clueless narrativists know this, deep down.
24/02/2012 at 08:57 bill says:
I don’t see any reason why some games couldn’t just include basic skip options (like X-Wing Alliance) and games with more tactical depth couldn’t do some form of auto-combat resolution. You’d still be picking your team, leveling them up, equiping them, but it’d simply be having narrative/large scale consequences (like total war) and not need the micromanagement.
24/02/2012 at 12:07 Jahkaivah says:
@Runs With Foxes
“But that’s not the same as skipping the combat. There are still consequences for your strategic and tactical choices, and the outcomes are determined by a number of factors tracked by the game. You’re still playing the game.”
Why yes, that is pretty much what I said in the last two paragraphs of my post.
Point is that auto-play already exists as a perfectly decent compromise for appealing to those who don’t like combat without actually taking it out of the game.
24/02/2012 at 03:26 Grimgrin says:
The reason devs put in skippable dialogue is because the the dialogue was repetitive, bland, or flat out bad. I mean for all the people who played WoW how many quests did you do in the game, and how many can you remember? Any game that has skippable is basically saying “We didn’t feel that the combat was enjoyable so rather then have you test your skill, feel free to skip it”. and really how many games have you played that you thought to your self “Man this would so much better if I didn’t have to keep over coming these obstacles!”. I’m not looking forword to the day that I start talking to some and say “Kill that one boss was a real pain! did you have alot of trouble to?” them: “nah, skipped it.”.
24/02/2012 at 07:16 pipman3000 says:
The reason devs should put in skippable combat is because the the combat is repetitive, bland, or flat out bad. I mean for all the people who played Plasnescape: Torment how many fights did you do in the game, and how many can you remember? Any game that has skippable dialog is basically saying “We didn’t feel that the dialog was enjoyable so rather then have you actually read a thing, feel free to skip it”. and really how many games have you played that you thought to your self “Man this would so much better if I didn’t have to watch this cutscene!”. I’m not looking forword to the day that I start talking to some and say “Reading that text was a real pain! did you have alot of trouble to?” them: “nah, skipped it.”.
24/02/2012 at 18:01 Grimgrin says:
Do you really think Plasnescape: Torment would have been a better game with out the combat? I mean combat wasn’t the most elegant but, it could be very rewarding.
24/02/2012 at 05:46 Viktor Pants says:
I think its fine to have the option to x out of combat or dialogue from time to time, My only concern would be that designers would become lazier and fall back on the “hey if you don’t like it you can skip it” excuse a little to often. It might end up lowering the bar for what we expect from an experience and in that sense it could be problematic,
It might also end up being costlier if you have to produce a cut-scene/NIS for every skipped combat encounter so that the players who skip through the combat get some feedback for their choice.
24/02/2012 at 06:51 MultiVaC says:
I think there are a few reasons they don’t make combat skippable in games:
1) It makes up the vast majority of the time you spend in the game. Even in dialog heavy games like BioWare’s nearly all of the game would be skipped. This would also mean skipping over a huge amount some of the most carefully crafted content, like almost all of the level design. I’m not saying I really care if people want to skip it, if they want to do that it’s their choice. But it’s a really bizarre way to approach things, to spend $60 on something that you want to skip 90% of. I don’t really think this is an idea that many people- developers or players- are sincerely interested in. It seems like the only reason we are talking about this is because of an odd statement from one individual and the subsequent obscene overreaction be some incredibly rude people on the internet.
2) Often time combat IS part of the narrative. Combat sequences are the main way your character gets from point A to point B, and they often involve scripted sequences where things happen that affect the storyline. Not to mention implied narrative through the scenery in which the combat is happening. The scenery and atmosphere of game levels can be used as a way to tell a story and evoke emotions, and some developers are truly brilliant at doing this. I would say that a game where the combat scenes are nothing but gameplay systems without any meaning or context that are just there to fill up space between the “story parts” is a pretty shitty game, honestly.
3) The whole thing probably wouldn’t make any sense, plot wise, if you just cut out all of the combat. A typical Mass Effect mission would end up be a shuttle landing on a planet, and then suddenly Shepard standing in the bad guy’s office with him saying “Damn you Shepard, you broke into my base and killed all my guys! You’ve foiled my plan!” Paragon: Take bad guy to space jail. Renegade: Kill bad guy. I guess you could turn the whole battle into a cutscene, but it would end up being either a short, crappy, poorly animated thing that takes all the weight out of the confrontation, or a huge, exciting production worthy of what you were aiming for, which leaves you pretty much making a movie alongside your game. It would be a difficult thing to pull off.
I also think that if we can so easily segregate story and the bulk of the gameplay elements (which combat usually makes up) we aren’t living up to the potential of the medium at all. But that’s a different discussion.
24/02/2012 at 07:07 d5tryr says:
I’d love to skip the combat in Tomb Raider games.
The climbing and exploration is so much fun, but whenever I’m having too much fun with that I’m forced to mow down a couple of tigers and gorillas between back flips.
That insane lady is so obsessed with murdering every near extinct animal she happens across. Christ Lara, if you hate animals so much then stop going to the effing jungle!
Anyway the combat is just filler in the name of ‘breaking things up’. Why do I need to have my fun broken up with un-fun?
24/02/2012 at 07:12 pipman3000 says:
Why doesn’t someone make an RPG without combat at all? I mean it is a ROLE-PLAYING game right and maybe it’d be nice once in awhile to play a character that isn’t a blood-thirsty imperialist who wipes out entire communities of primitive people just to take their shit.
just make planescape: torment 2
24/02/2012 at 07:47 bhlaab says:
Here is a great article
http://crystalprisonzone.blogspot.com/2012/02/frankenstein-monster-at-bioware.html
27/02/2012 at 00:30 jaheira says:
Everyone read this. It’s an utterly dire article that gets demolished by a superbly angry Walker in the comments. Thanks bhlaab!
24/02/2012 at 07:47 mllory says:
The problem with skippable anything (other than cinematics and start-of-game adverts obviously) is that it’s like a sign from the developers saying ” Sure, our *aspect of game* is crappy and not all that well thought out but you get the option of skipping it!”. And this problem becomes even more apparent when the thing we’re considering skipping is combat – arguably the meat of the game.
The fact that someone gets the option to choose to skip combat does change your experience because it fundamentally changes the way the developers construct their game. It’s like wanting an artist to give the viewer the option to gray out all that busy background stuff to concentrate on the figures better. The game should work as whole or get split in two different games entirely.
24/02/2012 at 07:52 codename_bloodfist says:
>Yes, of course, if we were talking about Dragon Age specifically, it’s rife with reasons why missing combat would be problematic. But we’re not. We’re talking about games that haven’t been developed yet.
And herein lies the problem. These games will have to be designed on a rudimentary different level in order for this option to even work, thus changing the game for better or for worse. My concern is that instead of gameplay and dialogue going in unison, we’ll be getting something (even more) akin to the original F.E.A.R. where combat and horror sequences could have come with commercial breaks in between. In the end both the people who want the visual novel and those in for the full experience will suffer.
I’d rather have them develop another Heavy Rain than put this into the next GOTY RPG.
24/02/2012 at 08:15 stevendick says:
I had an epiphany while playing Dragon Age II: I don’t need to make the combat fair or challenging
After almost 30 years as a gamer, for the first time I reduced the difficulty level to easy as I just couldn’t be bothered with the fighting, but I did want to get to the end of the story.
So I too think games with stories should accommodate those players who want to skip the fighting.
I know my dad likes playing the Mass Effect games, but allowing the skipping of combat and hacking would be a benefit as his reaction times don’t fit with the game mechanics.
24/02/2012 at 08:33 Jamesworkshop says:
wow this is a large comment thread for somebody I have never even heard of.
Didn’t alone in the dark 5 have thing like this that was touted as movie dvd playability or that in-game autoplay help system nintendo was exploring
http://uk.ds.gamespy.com/articles/100/1001883p1.html
24/02/2012 at 08:48 bill says:
I think this is a remarkably excellent idea.
The main reasons being:
(a) I have lost count of the number of games that I don’t finish. And i’ve seen many others comment the same thing. This would allow me to at least burn through the end of the story even if i’ve become bored of the gameplay.
(b)I’d be able to replay and experience alternate paths/endings. I know uni students have unlimited gameplay time to replay every 80hr RPG 10 times, but personally I’ve replayed ONE game in my life to see the other ending – Jedi Knight. Most games have way too much filler, and I don’t want to play through the whole thing again to just experience a different 10 second cutscene.
(c)Many games have way too much filler combat It’s repetitive and designed to pad out the gameplay time. Killing kobolds is fun the first few dozen times… after that it gets old.
(d)It’d be optional
(e)I personally can’t understand how anyone would click through dialogue/cutscenes in games, but I wouldn’t want to remove their ability to do it.
I think it’d be good to have a “don’t let me skip combat” checkbox at the beginning of the game, for those who are worried about being tempted to take the easy way out or something.
Other than that, excellent idea.
24/02/2012 at 16:04 Barnox says:
@bill : “(e)I personally can’t understand how anyone would click through dialogue/cutscenes in games”
If you’ve already seen the cutscene before, or if the main part of the game is not the story, but instead the action, you may want to skip the cutscene. I can’t for the life of me remember one useful cutscene in Bulletstorm, but I can remember the main part of the game (impaling people on cacti)
Fast forwarding dialogue is useful for people who prefer to read it than listen to a (sometimes horribly botched) voice actor. If you can read faster than the voice actor talks, but can’t skip the dialogue, you’re often stuck there, sometimes for a good 20 seconds, doing nothing. I myself experienced this with the Skyrim Daedra quests: The daedra are the only people whose dialogue you can’t skip through. It slowed down the gameplay for me, as I wasn’t able to continue with the story, the action or even jump until the damn thing stopped talking at me.
24/02/2012 at 09:06 Gira says:
Wow, look, this is honestly the worst thing I have read on RPS for quite some time. I mean, let’s skip the part where the abomination that is Dragon Age was described as “brilliant”, and get to the meat of the argument: BioWare’s combat systems have always been terrible. This is not a new thing. They are really, really bad. If you want to play a modern post-Bio RPG with excellent combat, try TOEE. Unfortunately, rather than trying to fix their combat gameplay or address their utter incompetence in that regard – even the Baldur’s Gate games were stuffed with endless filler trash mobs – they say to their audience, “Hey, you can skip it!”
Why are you people okay with that? Why don’t you demand more? How about, you know, making combat actually interesting and deep, and maybe even catering for character builds that avoid combat? You know, like in Fallout, a game that came out over a decade ago? These are supposed to be RPGs, not scripted action games. Why aren’t there other means of avoiding combat without actually having to “skip” it, Walker? Do you think it might be because BioWare are really, really bad games designers?
Crazy idea, I know.
EDIT: Oh, and as an addendum, it seems Walker’s of the very recent school of thought where RPGs are basically just action games with binary dialogue choices. Has it ever occurred to you that characters could have agency outside of dialogue trees? I mean, it never happens in BioWare games, but they’re not really the gold standard for the genre.
24/02/2012 at 10:48 Tubbins says:
I know. I can’t believe the amount of people saying this is a good idea.
What developers — especially RPG developers — should be doing is building games that cater to all character makes. That way if the combat is not for you, you build a diplomatically-oriented character, and the game caters for the role you choose. That’s what the “role-playing” bit in “role-playing game” means, by the way: the role you choose, not the role the developer chooses for you.
What’s going on here is that people are realising that Bioware’s gameplay is vapid, unimaginative, and boring, but instead of demanding better gameplay, they just want to cut it out completely. This is encouraging and rewarding Bioware for their lazy, half-assed development. It’s the kind of thing gamers should be totally against, but everyone is just happy to just continue gobbling it up.
24/02/2012 at 09:47 namad says:
honestly the article here is a bit of an oversimplification. many games are a lot like a visual novel with some combat thrown in. for those games this might make sense… but what about games like super meat boy? or things like the original mario? there’s nothing but game mechanics in the game, so skipping them can end up ruining a game. people can’t help themselves really, it’s a sad fact, but true. part of the gameplay in SOME games is indeed feeling frustration, it’s part of the experience. maybe games shouldn’t be designed this way….however … unlocking this sort of thing is NOT in the game developers best interests! why? well if you can just play any level you want in a game, a lot of people will end up just playing the best few levels, and skipping 90% of the game, they’ll hear about a best level, try it right away, try to play normally, and shockingly they’ll learn that MOST of the game they bought sucks! and 99% of the content is contrived and pointless and awful. the reason seeking ahead in a movie or book doesn’t ruin the medium is that well… generally in a movie or in a book, the production crew works REALLY HARD to make sure all the parts are good! so even if you’ve spoiled a bit of the mystery you’ll still be interested to see what happens, many books and movies get read/watched over and over, why? because they’re just damn well made. however many games are just shittily made, they’ve taken one or two interesting levels, pushed them to the end, then broken the concept up into 87 shitty levels to make you play. if people stop playing those shit portions of games… well they’ll stop wanting to pay 50$ for 2hour games too. basically shitty content, bad levels, boring game sequences are EASIER to produce. Once you’ve made your best level, making a dozen or two dozen copies of very similar yet much less carefully produced content takes a fraction of the time, bloats the gameplay time, and makes it easier for consumers to swallow the price. skipping combat in deus ex might make a bit of sense. skipping combats in diablo II wouldn’t make any darn sense at all.
skipping content would likely be especially popular as well as especially BAD in platformer/action type games. the games are often designed around the concept of teaching the player to be better at the game, there’s a difficulty curve, a bit of frustration is expected. in an ideal perfect platform game, players will experience frustration in mild degrees. the player will be forced to redo a fight a few times, but ideally this teaches the player to improve and makes them better capable of handling content later in the game, if it were possible to skip past the first frustrating moment the player would be undertrained! they’d be too inexperienced to handle the next hurdle, forcing them to skip more and more and more content as they progressed. until the difficulty curve felt like a brick wall and they weren’t playing at all anymore!
so yes, in some games… you just flat out should be able to skip past things! however… if the feature were in every single game out there, some games would certainly be harmed instead of improved. it’s hard for an average player to experience frustration, see an out, then not use it. game balance is sometimes carefully crafted around a sort of constant mild frustration buzz, designed to train players, allow them to FEEL progression, allowing them to for example easily stomp past earlier content, while barely handling hard higher levels.
most games out there have a story so freaking shitty that if you skipped all the gameplay content you’d have nothing left! sure deus ex and mass effect would still be fun as visual novels, but anno 2070 wouldn’t and neither would super meat boy!
24/02/2012 at 09:53 Mavvvy says:
You want narrative buy a book, is what sounded off in my minds eye. But then I realised there is indeed room for quality narrative on games, its just so few are built solidly around the story and even fewer still are of good quality. A statement like “make combat skipable” is certainly eye catching……but I would say back make a game that relies solely decent narrative and then you can discuss the game mechanics.
24/02/2012 at 09:53 Melonfodder says:
I don’t particularly want to browse through the comments but I couldn’t see anything on the first page so here goes a shoutout to Nintendo:
How do you offer players a way out if they’re struggling with the game portion? They allow you to skip it if you struggle with it. I’m not too fond of the idea of an instant god-mode button everywhere, because it takes away quite a bit from the challenge/reward mechanic that keeps us glued to many games. I like being rewarded for my struggles. I realise this does not work too well for more open-ended games, but what if, instead of just letting the player go through Mass Effect 3 without ever feeling the challenge and that sweet reward that comes with it, allow the player a chance first, and only after a few reloads a god mode can be turned on.
Or just pay the game on easy I guess. Isn’t easy practically the “experience the story” mode already?
24/02/2012 at 12:38 bill says:
It’s one of many possible solutions, and might be better suited to some games than others. X-Wing alliance had it and it worked quite well for that kind of “mission-in-one” flight sim.
But the problem with it in some other game types is that it doesn’t actually allow you to skip the bits you DON’T LIKE, only the bits you have problems with.
For example, I loved the beginning the Final Fantasy 6 on the GBA.. it seemed awesome and I was enjoying the story up to the point (early on) where walking down a corridor in a house resulted in at least 5 random battles! At that point I gave up and never got to enjoy the story, because I wasn’t going to sit through an entire game of annoying repetitive random battles.
Giving me the option to skip them Only If I Fail wouldn’t really address that problem at all.
In XWA you wouldn’t want to skip a battle without trying it at least once. But in an RPG with numerous repetitive grindy battles you might want to skip a load of them without having to try them first.
24/02/2012 at 09:55 aznan says:
I think this seems like a brilliant idea. I’d be jumping all over Catherine if I could skip the block puzzle bits.
24/02/2012 at 10:40 RegisteredUser says:
I agree with people who say that giving people the temptation will often lead to succumbing and ruining the whole point of the game many a time.
That being said however, there comes a point in games like the Total War series where you are essentially fighting 2 x 80 people troops and have to invest 5-15 minutes to just mop them up when you KNOW you will crush them easily where its just more sensible to press the autoresolve button and move on.
A nice example of how you can live with just “number fights” and still actually be playing the game is stuff like Hearts Of Iron or Europe Universalis. There is still an element of strategy and planning etc pp, but it is more abstracted. You don’t “skip” the battles, you are very much only playing for them in HOI still, but its all happening on a different level.
What I mean to say is: This is not something you can just say. You have to be genre-specific. Being able to just skip fights in Street Fighter does not make sense, nor does skipping the parts where you shoot in Call Of Duty(although one can just skip those games completely these days..).
I would argue that to some games having to play some of the things is integral to them even existing and/or making “sense” and being fun and being skippable just ruins them, and some games have situations where autoresolve(as opposed to skip, which is another issue still) makes sense.
Otherwise just go watch youtube playthroughs or something.
24/02/2012 at 12:44 bill says:
Or all the annoying mopping-up fights in King’s Bounty. (though that game did have an auto combat option, but it tended to lose half the troops – whereas micromanaging them would save them but take hours).
I think it’d be a great option for some genres, an ok one for others, and a pointless one for yet others. And it’d need to be implemented in different ways for different genres. So it’s not a simple one-case-fits-all topic.
24/02/2012 at 11:14 Plinglebob says:
After reading through a lot of the comments, one argument in support for skippable gameplay sections seems to be ignored (and an argument thats close to my heart).
Some People Are Bad At Playing Games
I’ve been playing games for almost 2 decades and aside from a couple of genres, I’m really really bad at it. My RTS tactics suck, my FPS aiming is abysmal, I can’t sneak to save my life and I struggle when I have more then 1 character to control in an RPG. However, I love the story in Warcraft III, I think the turn-based gameplay in the Total Wars games is brilliant and wandering round the island in Crysis on a high-end rig is probably the closest I’ll get to a tropical holiday until I win the lottery. However, if it wasn’t for the fact that each of these games give you the ability to “Skip” gameplay sections (“Allyourbasearebelongtous”, Auto-resolve battles and God mode) I probably would have ditched them all after a couple of hours. I almost ended up ditching DA:O because I ended up starting the fight at Redcliffe early and I spent an hour trying to win it.
Gamers often seem to want people to accept them and for more people to join in, but unless AAA titles make themselves accessable to someone who’s never played a game before (either through a “Super Easy” mode of skippable gameplay), new people are going to be put off.
24/02/2012 at 11:16 Plinglebob says:
Oops, I’m obviously also really bad at using XHTML script as well. Sorry.
24/02/2012 at 13:06 mllory says:
I don’t particularly wish other people to accept me as a ‘gamer’ or whatever. I just wish to play good games.
There are different games for different people and not every game is for everyone and that’s okay. Why should games try to cater to the lowest common denominator?
24/02/2012 at 11:23 Cerzi says:
I think it comes down to a paradigm shift in which storytelling in games has been emphasized over challenging gameplay.
Here’s an easy comparison for you: Tomb Raider 1 vs Uncharted. In the former, there was a narrative but it was very unintrusive, and the gameplay itself was the dominant focus. Just jumping from one ledge to the other could be troublesome, and indeed the whole point of the game.
In Uncharted, a lot of the movements that people would pain themselves over in Tomb Raider are pretty much done automatically. Press a button and you’re effortlessly scaling a sheer cliff face in a way Lara Croft never could. The player is more passive, the narrative is more important.
In this example, it seems fine to be able to skip platforming in Uncharted, or not fine to skip story, and it seems fine to skip story in Tomb Raider, and not fine to skip platforming.
In other words, we shouldnt be arguing for a general status quo here. It all comes down to the game in question.
24/02/2012 at 12:01 Velvetmeds says:
Skippable combat should have always existed. There isn’t a single game where the combat is good enough to never be skipped.
24/02/2012 at 13:01 Midroc says:
While i think that skippable combat isn’t a big thing, i still see it as a start to a slippery slope leading
towards the dumbing down of games in general. Why stop at just skipping combat? start skipping puzzles, just have an instant teleport to the next place of event etc etc.
Why would the developers spend time creating exciting combat and intricate puzzles if they think that a large percent of the playerbase will just skip them? If the publishing fatcats get in on this, it isn’t unbelievable that they would just cut corners in the gameplay department with the attitude of “If players are skipping it, why waste money on it?”. It might lead to more work put into the story, but when the gameplay is gone and the only interactivity left is choosing to progress trough the story A, B or C style, then i think the industry have forgotten what games is all about.
On another note i think people have forgotten what makes you want beat a game. Working really hard towards a goal and finally beating it is an exhilarating experience, thanks to endorphines being released from the brain as a reward for the hard work. If there is no hard work involved, you don’t get any endorphines, which result in a “well the game is over, meh”.
24/02/2012 at 13:44 jhng says:
This was a really interesting article and a good thread (although I didn’t real the whole thing) — thanks are due to Mr Walker.
I totally agree that making combat necessary for progress is undesirable in a lot of games where there may be many other non-combat reasons for playing the game (story, scenery, role-playing, etc etc).
But there is a slightly dangerous side-effect of skippability which is that it could lessen the incentive for designers to properly balance the game. Already simplistic difficulty settings that just adjust relative health/damage have this effect to some extent. It would be preferable for games to be inherently self-balancing as far as possible so that the difficulty is determined by how you decide to play the game (e.g. whether to grind more in an RPG or whether to increase the number/difficulty of win conditions — like the much more sophisticated difficulty adjustment in the Thief games). If combat became skippable, then I wonder whether designers would be inclined to say ‘it doesn’t matter if its a bit too difficult for some players some of the time since it is skippable’ and take a less rigorous approach to balancing.
24/02/2012 at 14:01 Barrista says:
“Deciding how other people are allowed to play games, or believing that other people playing differently is an affront to you, is mystifying”
I think this is a mark of immaturity myself. And you will find it in places other than how someone chooses to play a video game.
“You like PS3 over Wii? You’re a moron.
You like the samsung Galaxy phone over the iphone? How dare you!!!! You’re a moron!
You got a poor version of the tablet I own that runs fine? What the hell is wrong with you! ”
Personally, I don’t care how people choose to play a game or what material objects they purchase for themselves. What I decide to do is what matters, right? If someone wants to cheat to unlock limited trees in Skyrim? Okay.
When Bioware starts to pay me, then maybe I’ll care about how others are “doing it”.
24/02/2012 at 14:16 Duke of Chutney says:
the whole world and its dog has already commented but i shall do so too anyways
This makes sense only in games that separate the games action from the story, like bioware games.
Imagine doing this in HL2? or worse still DOOM3.
There is a design philosophy in some game dev circles that says if the developer differes a decision to a player that represents the failure of the game developer to make a decision. An example of this might be giving a player the decision on whether or not they can carry two guns in stead of 3 at one time. Maybe the skipping combat idea is viewed as the same.
There are also the traditional ideas about what a game is, you make progress, get rewards etc, solve puzzles, overcome obsticals etc, and win. If you can skip do you win?
Dara O’Briens comments about guitar hero make an interesting point. people dont necessarily play that game to win, they play for an experience. Maybe game devs have to come up with a better appreciation of why people play their games and design them respectivly.
A good example of this is dwarf fortress, a game where you cannot win. The developer understands that you arnt trying to win, the same is true of minecraft. Alternativley the Call of Duty games (they are dull but…) they understand that all people want out of their games is to win at shooting mans. Perhaps bioware don’t understand why people play their games.
24/02/2012 at 15:29 cassus says:
I think the reason people threw a hissy fit over the whole thing is that a lady that dislikes games is making games for a company that, arguably, has made ONE game with gameplay worth playing since they did the baldurs gate stuff… Well, neverwinter nights was OK I guess. The gameplay in the Mass Effect games is, to me, pure rubbish, and for bioware games, I kinda see her point. Cause if I could skip all that crappy combat I might have watched the story. I got about 10 hours into ME2 and then I couldn’t take any more of that game. Which means I’m lost whenever podcasts go into a 30 minute “oh mass effect, yee amazing gem of gaming” praise-fest. I’ve no idea what happens in either of those games. So yeah, BioWare, please make your gameplay skippable, or better yet, stop making horrible gameplay. Baldurs Gate has some of the most amazing gameplay EVER. And you proved you still had it with Dragon Age 1, then totally broke it again with dragon age 2.
yeah..
24/02/2012 at 15:51 Barnox says:
I’ve been playing Roboblitz, and I feel that the way that combat was handled in that game was ideal for a puzzle-platformer.
The combat was presented as part-and-parcel along with the story and the puzzles. The enemies themselves were as much a part of the puzzle as the locks and keys. There was no sense of “I need to kill 5 more of these to get to the next part of the puzzle” and I think games that implement combat as a side mechanic should do it sparsly and optionally.
That being said, I do feel that games should have the option to skip content based on when you feel like it, if the content is not a central part of the game. Metal Gear Solid 2 does this in a minor way: The Fission Mailed screen allowed me to complete a section of the game, featuring heavy combat, that I would normally have died many times doing.
24/02/2012 at 16:26 newprince says:
Slightly off topic, but am I the only one that actually enjoys the combat from the last two Fallouts? Going through this thread is just pure hatefests on the gameplay. I mean, I do use ironsight and gun mods mods, but… to this day I enjoy doing a VATS shotgun blast to a poor soul’s face. Hmph.
25/02/2012 at 04:16 fooga44 says:
@newprince
The problem with fallout is that there is too much dead space in the game where you are doing nothing but travelling and you get bored as fuck to get to the next place. Not to mention the easy combat. Bethesda’s games have always been slow as molasses and poorly paced. They cater to people who like to be bored to death. The actual combat in fallout is nothing compared to say serious sam 1. If you’re going to do an first person shooter it should pace the action well. Fallout does none of that really and coasts on modern gamers ability to tolerate huge amounts of empty space designed to waste time. Old school gamers don’t put up with that shit. Fallout 3 was average at best, mediocre at worst.
24/02/2012 at 20:38 Dan Lowe says:
Forgive my not reading through all ten pages before posting this, at the risk of it being said already, but I’ve actually started lowering the difficulty on some games to get through them. If the game’s worth playing, I’d love to play it on the hardest difficulty or seek out the secret content (I played FFXII over 120hrs in three different playthroughs), but there are games where the dialogue and story are literally exhausting to get through, and many where major elements of the gameplay are exhausting as well. If lowering the difficulty means I can get through it quickly the first time, in hopes there’ll be something better in the next chapter, then I’m all for building that mechanism into the game at the very beginning.
And as far as designing games for the environment and the immersion of a persistent world rather than the primary narrative and prescripted elements, I long for more open-endedness. The idea of a Virtual Reality Minecraft with real-world textures and seemingly infinite exploration — even without any central gameplay events and obstacles to get through — makes me want to crawl into a cryogenic tank and wake up in 25 years.
I like games, I like playing very simple and short but plain fun games (I’ve been playing through Magicka repeatedly trying to make a perfect single-player run in under 4 hours), but longer games, the Skyrims and Dragon Ages are leaving a lot to be desired. There’s an Uncanny Valley to environment, too, and we’re quickly reaching it.
24/02/2012 at 22:11 Somerled says:
Sounds like the old “Why do you cheat?” debates I used to take part in. Why do I cheat? Because sometimes I want to play a game in a different way. Maybe that’s more fun, or a different kind of fun, or just plain different altogether. Sometimes it’s fun to plow through the monsters, an unstoppable powerhouse soaked in the blood of my enemies. Hitting escape is “cheating.” Progressing in a different manner from someone else’s expectation.
Then again, the bitch-storm that Alone in the Dark threw up from its skippable chapters … gamers are weird. And anyone arguing for progression as reward has strange priorities.
25/02/2012 at 04:48 psyk says:
AH come on
25/02/2012 at 05:31 El_Emmental says:
I wish more comedians were making sketches about video games, of course most them would be meh or plain bad, but simply imagine the few excellent ones we would get…
…
Regarding the skip scene possibility, I’m fully okay with this, we shouldn’t force people to “play” through something they don’t enjoy at all before allowing them to enjoy another part of the game. We’re all here to have fun, let the fun be delivered in the most adequate way for each player.
…
Regarding the skip feature as the way to replay a game to see the different outcomes or after losing your saves, I fully agree.
In my case, I gave up on Zeno Clash and Company of Heroes after I found out the Steam Backup feature doesn’t include saves. Hopefully Zeno Clash later included a chapters unlocking system (based on achievements I guess), so I could finish the game easily.
On the other hand, I need to replay Company of Heroes from the very start, 18 hours lost. Same with Fahrenheit, 7 hours lost. I really don’t want to do that again, at least not now. Time is too precious.
25/02/2012 at 05:32 El_Emmental says:
Regarding the skip as a difficulty-tweaking button, it’s an extremely useful tool. I always thought cheat codes were only made for that purpose.
Like, someone get stuck at a specific part and really dislike that part, (s)he uses that cheat for that combat/chapter, then get back on playing the game.
I did that myself a few times (out of the 200+ games I played, I needed cheats for a brief moment for approximately 5 games), and felt “phew, I’m really glad they added such cheats, that part was just crap, what were they trying to do”.
I still had to use some trainers (= external small software, modifying some specific game values like health, ammo, items, etc) once or twice when there wasn’t cheats.
nb: I think it’s pretty obvious we’re talking about single-player games here, online cheating (when it’s done to dominate other players – extremely rare cases of artistic/comedy cheating exist) is one of the worst thing ever happened to video games.
…
I remember my cousin was stuck in the X-Files game (the interactive movie point-and-click adventure game from 1998), because there was a short FPS part and since he never played such games before, would always lose at this point (and the checkpoint wasn’t even close to that FPS part).
=> When we finally got to visit this cousin’s family, my brother, who had been playing several FPS for quite a few months then (Dark Forces on the Mac, Jurassic Park on the SNES (interior parts), Goldeneye on the N64), did that FPS part easily, and my cousin could finally finish the game. The skip button would have been useful and justified in this case.
One might think “hey, you skipped difficulty/the game !”, first it’s up to the player to make his own decision, second you can’t force a player to face something that is out of his/her reach.
I stopped playing some games (at least for a few months) because the game was “broken”, the game was just unbeatable unless I spent the required 4 to 6 hours on the same frustrating challenge to get it done. Think of Trials 2/SMB, without the fun of finally getting things done.
Most of the time, it happened when I didn’t have the right weapons/items/not enough HP/mana and the last save/autosave was way too old.
=> Imagine you wanted to save that Full-Heal medkit (that you can’t loot) for later, so you continue, and once you’re down to 25% HP and close to the final boss you walk back, expecting your well-deserved medkit, and suddenly an invisible wall/collapsed alley/closed door prevents you from walking back to that medkit. You’re left with 2 choices :
- restart the entire level ? (nb: if it’s possible ! no words can describe the stupidity of the “Continue / New Game” design)
- try to fight that boss (who has area-of-effect/unavoidable attacks) with your 25% HP ?
Such crappy situation happened to me countless times because I was “saving” HP pickups, you know, planning my HP strategy rather then using everything thrown at me.
Same with refusing a new weapon (like a Sniper rifle), you later realize there isn’t any choice, you have to drop your good ol’ chainsaw/shotgun/machinegun to grab that sniper rifle when told, or you’ll face a wall few enemies later.
A skip button would be the ultimate “fix game design errors” button. That error could be related to the game (= bad design) or specific to the player (= inadequate design), it wouldn’t matter : the skip button would fix it and everyone would be happy.
25/02/2012 at 05:33 El_Emmental says:
A “skip this challenge” feature is nice, but it’s just one possibility : “put this challenge aside, I’ll play it later (when I feel like it)” is an excellent example of an efficient variant.
We often see “casual gaming” and flash games as games without anything to bring to “real” games, but the “skip this level” function, often limited to 3 or 5 levels, is amazing :
a) You get to play later levels, getting better at the game during the process.
b) If you didn’t understood how to do a specific task (like rocketjumping, shooting weakspots, or using the environment) in the first challenge requiring that task, you might get it at the second challenge.
* It’s exactly the same with learning how to read/count/etc:
=> there is no methods/exercises working for all kids/persons, you need several different approaches/POV to “cover” most people.
=> if you don’t let kids/persons try other exercises, they’ll give up on the entire lesson.
c) You’re greatly rewarded when you come back to complete skipped level.
=> The skip tokens suddenly become a currency, a value : Should I spent a token on that level, or should I try harder ? Should I try that previous level again, since I really need to get that skip token back for the latest level ? The skip button is now letting you estimate your own skills and how much you value your efforts in finishing a difficult challenge.
It’s extremely gratifying, because you’re really seeing your progress, you’re no longer trying to keep up with the difficulty curve, you’re -really- getting better at this game, there is a much stronger accomplishment feeling when you finally finished the game, or even when you stop playing it : you made it to the 30th level (or the 5th chapter), so even if you didn’t went further, you truly managed to finish these 30 levels/5 chapters and got better at the game.
It’s really important that games make you feel good about yourself, not through statistics or ranks, but through your self judgement, your self-built self-esteem. If you lost a mission or a multiplayer game but played pretty good, you won’t feel bad about it. My best gaming experience weren’t victories or defeats, they were interesting struggles and stressful moments during which I did better (according to myself) than usual.
The skip button would then let you judge when the challenge is going to be an interesting struggle that should be faced, or just a dull pyrrhic victory not worth your efforts/hours.
The “Skip” button is a brilliant leverage, it’s one of best game design tool not yet implemented in complex and difficult games, simply because everyone is afraid of its possible consequences.
25/02/2012 at 05:33 El_Emmental says:
Because the “skip” button isn’t an innocent little button sitting in the corner, for the few who will want to skip a small part of the game (be it combats or dialogues).
It’s affecting the difficulty, the learning curve, each challenges, everything. With a skip button, the entire game design will be changed.
- Wanted the players to learn a new tasks/skills at each new challenges ?
° The Bad => Now you need to make sure the game is still balanced and playable if you skip any challenges (even 90% of them). Harder challenges have to be axed, because people will skip them and won’t be able to catch up later.
° The Good => Now you need to introduce your new challenges through different ways, so (almost) everyone can get it.
- Wanted to suddenly have a rather difficult challenge in your game, to wake up the player, to suddenly get a sharp rise of stress and action, precisely followed by a rather calm moment/challenge, to have a good rhythm ?
(it is an extremely important element when you need to carry emotions, maintain interest and have interesting “action stress” moments)
° The Bad => Now you have to rework your entire planning (or nerf the audacious plan you had), or find a way to get a similar effect (cutscene ? written summary of the combat ? AI taking control over your character and playing out a scripted scene ?).
° The Good => Now your players can follow the game’s pace even if they didn’t completed some challenges, the momentum is no longer broken by inadequates challenges (= spending 30 minutes on something that should have only took 5).
- Wanted your players to play more (stats show most people rarely get past 50% of a game), to build a stronger emotional attachment to the game, to get a stronger word-of-mouth marketing and more DLCs and sequels sales ? (and a better gaming experience)
° The Bad => Now you have to worry about finetuning your challenges so most players don’t skip them. The Man With The Money will ask devs to tune down the difficulty of these challenges to reduce the amount of skips, so people actually play the entire game and buy more game-related services/content.
° The Good => Now players get to finish games more often, even if they skipped some parts of it. The Man With The Money is rather happy (even if he never shows it), and will not axe as much difficult challenges as before, since it’s not preventing some players from playing the rest of the game (and buying sequels/DLCs/services).
- Wanted to focus more ressources in the combat/dialogue/any part of the game ?
° The Bad => Now you can’t focus too much on something that can simply be skipped with a single click, depth is no longer a possibility.
° The Good => Now you can truly focus on these challenges, without fearing it will prevent some of your players from playing the rest of the game.
25/02/2012 at 05:33 El_Emmental says:
The problem with new tools is that they are never used to enhance the game experience on AAA games : the primary, main, almost only, objective is making money.
Publishers will never greenlight new tools such as “skipping some parts of the game” without being sure it will be an immediate +20% positive investment, and you can’t get +20% without using a tool in the wrongest deviated way.
This is why “gamers” are hostile to change, sure some of them are afraid of change, but most of them just don’t trust the video game industry.
Look back at copy protections. DRMs. Sequels. How publishers are treating devs studios. DLCs. Pre-order incentives. Region-lock. Console ports.
Then, can you still believe “they” won’t screw up the skip function ?
Can you still believe the consequences won’t be much closer to “The Bad =>” examples rather than the “The Good =>” ones ?
This is why change is no longer possible in the AAA/mainstream video game market, there is no longer trust.
Sadly, trust is no longer needed to make money.
It even became a merchandise, waiting to be consumed : any important IP or trusted developer is an opportunity to make some easy-cash with cheap shovelwares until it’s dead and buried, with early-fans trying to forget what happened after the first games.
Even the skip button, in the hands of the current video game industry, will become another problem gamers will have to deal with, rather than a simple solution to various frustrating problems.
25/02/2012 at 16:58 Michael Dorosh says:
How many combat-oriented games offer “combat’ that is both complex/challenging and has stakes as high as real world “combat” in any event? I remember sitting down with the telephone-sized manual for Falcon 3.0 decades ago, and learning about “air combat’; the stakes of not learning the multiple threats and tactics were, I suppose, death of a pilot character with any accumulated “accomplishments” though I frankly don’t recall the details. Compare to something like Rainbow Six, an extremely soft first person shooter where you can simply breeze through the campaign in a couple of afternoons, not touch a single option in the briefing and set up menus, and die multiple deaths with no real consequences other than a respawn with the minor inconvenience of having to spend perhaps two or three minutes going over the same ground. “Combat” in most games has no dire consequences, save for some games with optional “iron man” modes which will levy the appropriate penalties. Few games, no matter the genre, make you learn intricate or ‘real world’ tactics beyond a few different ‘funny moves’. The whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.
26/02/2012 at 08:02 Campaigner says:
If it’s possible to skip combat then it should say casual, cheater or something like that in the end.
And you should NOT get any achievements while being a wimp like that.
26/02/2012 at 11:46 PopeBob says:
I actually haven’t a problem with people skipping combat outright. I do have a problem with Mass Effect 3′s version of “skipping” the combat, which entails enabling what amounts to godmode on your Shepard in Story/Narrative mode. Surely you could just skip to the talky bits, auto-pilot the fighting into a scripted bot stage or even just depopulate the world of enemies. But to give this illusion of combat is like that Penny Arcade strip about Mario’s Tanooki suit. It’s patronizing people who are bad at/don’t want to do the combat bits by lowering the hoop down to waist level and pretending it’s totally normal and legit. “You’re doing so good, consumer! Look how many enemies you killed!” “Oh, don’t shoot me Shepard! You’re SO STRONG~”
26/02/2012 at 13:40 Toothball says:
There are a few RPGs out there that include automated battle options. Final Fantasy 12 was probably most noted for it, but the idea had been around for a while. When I first came across it, I was overjoyed to discover that rather than have to manually direct my party through every single inconsequential battle, I could just set them going and come back when the fighting was over. When a boss came up I’d take over, since those fights were more interesting and usually required a less brute force approach. Some of my friends though I was mad for doing this. They’d argue that I was missing the point of the game. I couldn’t see why they’d want to do all that fighting by hand.
It has been said that if a game needs a run button, then movement speed is probably too slow. In an ideal game, the player would be having maximum fun through every moment of play. But as that game doesn’t exist, what’s wrong with allowing players to experience the parts they do like. Most often the alternative is that they stop playing and don’t come back. Who benefits from that?
27/02/2012 at 00:07 fooga44 says:
@toothball
“I couldn’t see why they’d want to do all that fighting by hand.”
Think about what you just said, imagine taking out all the combat from mass effect including boss fights, there is no game left, just a really bad movie and boring dialogue. When you take the interactive parts of the game away or have to skip them that means either 1) you’re a non gamer or 2) the combat in the game isn’t very fun which means the game itself sucks and game devs need to fix the game so participating in it is fun.
Skipping combat means fundamentally you’re not there for the game but for the movie/story aspects, and at that point square should just be giving people like you a movie or you should just watch walkthroughs /w highlights of story on youtube and save yourself the $60 bucks.
Whenever you are not participating you can substitute that with watching someone else play on youtube. Would you rather do that? I think thats genius thing for you to do since you find the participation aspect so boring.
27/02/2012 at 13:05 Dorque says:
I know it’s an MMO and obviously you can’t really have skippable combat in it, but I’m still amazed that after three pages of comments, World of Warcraft hasn’t come up.
Why, you ask?
Well, WoW is a case study in difficulty blocking content.
I’ll try to explain this from the perspective of those who are unfamiliar with WoW. Back when Blizzard released the second expansion, their first “raid” (i.e. end-game, max-level dungeon) was the only one for… oh… six months, give or take. The entire time, they were talking about ANOTHER raid that had been in development since before the expansion was even released: Ulduar.
Ulduar was beautiful. The boss mechanics were unique and interesting. The dialogue was amazing. The graphics were stunning. And it took them somewhere between six months to a year (and maybe then some) to complete.
They estimate that between 2-5% of players actually saw the whole thing.
Millions of dollars worth of development time and almost none of their players even got to experience it. And this is in a lore-driven game world. I personally played that game for over six years, and I love the lore that started with the original RTS games – and I never saw the end of a story-based raid past the original release.
Is it wrong that I’d love a “solo mode” where I could wander in and experience it myself? I don’t need loot or experience; I just want to see the story that my character is theoretically a part of and experience the millions of dollars and tens of thousands of development hours that I paid for.
27/02/2012 at 23:46 Turbobutts says:
If you skip the gameplay of a game it becomes a book or movie. And if I want to read a book or watch a movie I read a book or watch a movie, not play a game. I don’t see how skippable gameplay is even a valid point of discussion. It’s rubbish.
06/03/2012 at 14:28 vitacia says:
My god the autor of this article doesn’t seem to know what he’s talking about. I don’t want to tear the whole article apart, just commenting the final words results already in a Wall of Text.
“Getting to the end of a game doesn’t need to be a privilege, earned through hard labour and toil. It’s something anyone can be allowed to do, however they wish.”
Yes, there is an invention for people who just want to be entertained without doing anything for it: it’s called VIDEO. You can find VIDEO on your TELEVISION and homepages like YOUTUBE. VIDEO lets you enjoy something WITHOUT engaging in ANY interactivity. You don’t have to use your brain for VIDEO, you just LEAN BACK and WATCH.
“But I don’t see why anyone should be restricted from seeing any part of a game they’ve bought for any reason. And if skipping combat is a way to do that, then skip away.”
If you have a problem with a video game, there is something called “EASY DIFFICULTY”.
I KID YOU NOT! Games had different difficulties FOR DECADES and still have them. Most games have CHEATS like GODMODE who basicly let you skip through the game if you just want to see what the game’s story is all about.
But do you want to know what? It’s not how games are meant to be played.
Most people buy a game because they want to PLAY, not to READ and LISTEN. Skipping sequences of a game is like skipping parts of a movie: you’ll get the story, but you won’t get the experience.
People like you simply don’t enjoy videogames. You just play them and wish they where something else.
07/03/2012 at 06:31 hrothgar says:
Hi John, hi RPS.
I made a video that sheds some light on the whole Hepler thing. It’s not an attack video, it’s pretty informative, so I think you guys should see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc
Tell me what you think in the comments.
26/03/2012 at 23:22 Ymarsakar says:
You should take a look at the VN Fate Stay Night if you want to consider “gameplay” vis a vis the narrative.