By Alec Meer on June 24th, 2011 at 11:24 pm.

Following a fairly vague response to the uproar around Eve’s frankly ridiculous prices for in-game avatar vanity items (e.g. a shirt requiring virtual currency worth $25 of real money, or alternatively enough in-game money to buy several very large spaceships) introduced in the new Incarna expansion, CCP have addressed the issues head on. The latest blog from Eve senior producer Arnar “CCP Zulu” Gylfason is probably one of the more extraordinary developer comments I’ve ever read. Case in point: “People have been shocked by the price range in the NeX store, but you should remember that we are talking about clothes. Look at the clothes you are currently wearing in real life. Do you have any specific brands? Did you choose it because it was better quality than a no-name brand?“
And there’s more. I’m just going to have to quote most of it verbatim, because… well, essentially he’s trying to argue that Eve’s in-game clothes can be directly equated to real-life clothes, both in terms of value (or lack thereof) and of self-expression. It’s a fascinating talking point for sure. It’s also almost definitely going to make a lot of Eve players very angry.
“Assume for a short while that you are wearing a pair of $1,000 jeans from some exclusive Japanese boutique shop. Why would you want to wear a pair of $1,000 jeans when you can get perfectly similar jeans for under $50? What do other people think about you when they see you wearing them? For some you will look like the sad culmination of vainness while others will admire you and think you are the coolest thing since sliced bread. Whichever it is, it is clear that by wearing clothes you are expressing yourself and that the price is one of the many dimensions that clothes possess to do that in addition to style and fit. You don’t need to buy expensive clothes. In fact you don’t need to buy any clothes. Whatever you choose to do reflects what you are and what you want others to think you are.
We will gradually introduce items at other price points, definitely lower and probably higher than what‘s in the store today. We hope you enjoy them and are as passionate about them as you are of the current items that are for sale.”
It’s almost midnight where I am and so I’m not exactly in the best state for a sociological debate but… well, I’m more than a little startled at this justification. And not just because I’ve never met anyone who buys $1000 jeans. Yes, our increasingly digital lives mean in-game self-expression can and should be considered as important as real-world self-expression, but I just can’t get to the point where I can quite so directly equate a few lines of code and texture files to something that can keep me warm or make me look marginally less horrific when I go out.
I do admire the chutzpah of admitting that neither real or pretend clothes have any tangible value beyond the subjective, however. And there’s certainly something in the assertion that people will take note and react if they spot you wearing an evidently expensive item, but whether a fixed in-game store with fixed in-game prices for cyber-monocles is actually equivalent to wearing a rolex… No, it doesn’t sit right. Partly because of the oddity of holding a graphic to be the direct equal of something that’s tangible, that is manufactured and shipped and felt and smelt and stretched, and partly because these are Eve’s first-ever in-game clothes, so the difference between what’s high-fashion and what’s purely functional hasn’t even slightly been established as yet. That’s the point, perhaps – this first run of items will establish how many people are prepared to pay how much, and the higher and lower can spawn out of that. Trouble is, it’s all happening rather noisily in public. Starting Icarna with only low-priced items might well have proven less controversial.
Not to mention that, quite frankly, Eve isn’t exactly the best game to test theories of clothing-based vanity and self-expression – it’s built up a formidable reputation and playerbase because it’s about space war and politicking, not poncing about in expensive shirts. Clothes-selling was a big enough risk for this particular game to take in the first place, even before tagging them with such high prices. Whether right or wrong, the theory of digital vanity item’s subjective value being comparable to a real-life vanity item’s subjective value is a fascinating one – but Eve and its playerbase rather seems like the wrong testbed for it.
On the other hand, I wonder if the talk of lower price items arriving soon might just be a veiled admission of error for this run of avatar clothes. If, in a little time, cheap items are very much the norm with a few expensive ones also available for those rich or fool enough to want them, perhaps the problem will quietly go away and people will be content to spend a little extra to customise their characters more or less as they see fit. But claiming the current state of affairs (where even the lower-priced purely cosmetic items equate to more than cost of a month’s subscription to the game, or any number of in-game ships and upgrades that actually do stuff) is essentially just a social engineering experiment that upset players haven’t yet grasped the wisdom of probably isn’t going to make people feel better.
Also addressed (and confirmed as real) is the leaked CCP internal newsletter, ‘Greed Is Good’, which contained some rather frank discussion about the merits and potential of microtransactions, and how best to make players indulge in tons of them. Given the general community sentiment is that the new Eve vanity item store is currently absurdly overpriced, that newsletter probably couldn’t have leaked at a worse possible time for CCP.
So Gylfason calls for an end to the personal abuse and harrassment of CCP staff, and claims that the newsletter was essentially the firm playing devil’s advocate as it tried to make up its own mind about microtransactions. “The opinions and views expressed in Fearless are just that; opinions and views. They are not CCP policy nor are they a reliable source of CCP views as a company. The employees who submitted articles to that newsletter did exactly what they were asked to do, write about theories and opinions from an exaggerated stand.”
So it was just a glorified roleplay exercise? That’s what CCP are claiming, anyway. There’s more here. Gylfason seems genuinely upset about the response to Incarna and the newsletter, and I’m sure many in CCP feel similarly. Who wants to upset their fanbase, after all? I’m really not convinced that blog is going to put any of the outrage to bed, however. In fact, it may just increasing the apparently growing sense of a rift between the game-players and the game-makers. Hopefully it can all be ironed out soon – Eve is, after all, no stranger to drama, protest and politicking, but always seems to keep its head above the water despite it.



What is this I don’t even
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I share your sentiment.
I also recommend this: Glass Door company reviews
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This is the only sane response.
http://www.hooptywagon.com/img/macros/cat_pushing_watermelon_argument_inv.jpg
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People complaining that useless vanity items are overpriced? Gosh, what a surprise!
It is beyond me why people actually waste their money on such crap. Would I rather rip 5£ or 20£ to shreds? How about “None of the above”?! CCP is perfectly right to ask ridiculous prices, as anyone with the intelligence of an ape (about 10% of humans, I’d estimate) won’t bother anyway, and the other 90% will gladly spend any amount, as proven countless times by the abundant F2P titles.
And the clothing argument is very valid (although it will go over the complainer’s head anyway, which makes it kinda moot): The difference between any two pairs of jeans is usually marginal, yet the prices are not. You pay for the right to wear a brand logo, and prices are one of the most important status symbols. There are cliques who don’t rip off the price tags off clothing so they can prove to the others that theirs was expensive. I am sadly not making this up…
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@Kdansky
The clothing argument might be valid (in the sense that it addressed why the prices should be acceptable to Eve subscribers) if most of the players actually had the disposable income to purchase $1000 pants on a whim, and sometimes did.
Wait…no, it wouldn’t.
Regardless, thanks for assuming that those who disagree with that sentiment simply can’t understand what’s being said. That seems highly reasonable of you to assume.
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The jeans: http://blogs.wsj.com/scene/2010/11/23/are-these-jeans-worth-1000/
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@ kdansky: Humans are apes, so technically 100% of humans have the intelligence of an ape.
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No, they aren’t apes.
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Umm actually, yes we are. Humans are categorized under the Great ape family.
“The Hominidae (pronounced /hɒˈmɪnɨdiː/; anglicized hominids, also known as great apes[notes 1]), as the term is used here, form a taxonomic family, including four extant genera: chimpanzees, gorillas, humans, and orangutans.[1] In the past, the term was used in the more restricted sense of humans and relatives of humans closer than chimpanzees.”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
You might not like to admit it, but yes we are apes. you might disagree on a religious or superiority complex level but that dosn’t change the fact that we are indeed apes.
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This is a company selling items to those that want to buy them – clearly contravening all previous practices in the history of the world and proving themselves to be evil monsters.
Of course, if the things they were selling were $1 then that might be ok, but if they are $25 then this is clearly madness!!
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@PoLLeNSKi: “Humans are apes, so technically 100% of humans have the intelligence of an ape.”
Humans are apes, so some apes have the intelligence of humans and humans have intelligence in “an ape range”, but it doesn’t mean humans have the intelligence equal to that of all apes, to average apes’ intelligence or in any other way makes everybody a gorilla i.e. “stupid”. However, there is a lot of room for improvement anyway, indeed.
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No, Humans aren’t apes, they were placed on the planet by Xenu.
Only fishooked one, was expecting more =(
Also, your tone followed by accusing me of superiority complex is hilarious =)
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I try :)
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@ Pandora: “100% of humans have the intelligence of an ape.”
I am an ape, I have the intelligence of me. Therefore I have the intelligence of an ape. Repeat nearly 7 billion times and you have a logical argument which is completely watertight in suggesting that all humans have the intelligence of an ape.
I was not saying that all apes are equally intelligent as you only need to look at a comparison of Jade Goody and Stephen Hawking to see the fallacy in that argument without getting our tree-bound friends involved at all.
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@PoLLeNSKi: As I tried to contain above (using a phase with a word “range” in it), I agree with what you said about humans having, technically, apes’ intelligence. I thought I didn’t agree with what you were suggesting, but you’re right, upon rereading more carefully Kdansky’s comment I must apologize, as I got contex wrong and you were just nitpicking, not making any sensible argument relevant to discussion. So, sorry, you didn’t suggest any of the things I assumed you did.
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@ Pandora: I’m dismayed you think that refuting the facts of another person’s argument isn’t one of the tenets of a proper discussion. In fact I more or less agree with what Kdansky says as I don’t personally have a say one way or the other when it comes to idiots (all of an apish intelligence) spending money on virtual goods – if they want to waste hours of their working lives to save up for t-shirts/hats/horse armour to wear while wasting hours of their non-working lives (both virtual and non-virtual) when sufficient items or clothing are available more cheaply or completely free anyway, then let them.
So long as it doesn’t adversely affect the gameplay for those not rich or shallow enough to indulge in said items, I really don’t care. (An obvious disclaimer to those who purchase said items to support the devs…although I wonder how many would do so without being able to receive their badge of generosity to parade in public)
Although I don’t personally play EVE I wonder if in the future in such a socially based game it might be possible that NOT wearing the latest duds might cost you in your in-game interactions? Kinda like turning up to a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt rather than a suit might cost you the job?
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This is a gigantic Fuck You to the playerbase.
I’m done with this gaggle of morons. It’s a year and a half that I won’t regret. But I can’t be associated with this any more.
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I personally don’t play EvE, but I heard a couple of my friends unsubscribed because of this patch.
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I’m with RCGT on this. CCP can live in their fantasy world for as long as they want/can, I’m pretty much done with them.
The concept of Eve (at least, as I remember it) is a great one, but this is not that. There are many other options if I want to entertain myself, I’m not going to support people that will actively argue these points.
I’m also a little surprised that Mr. Meer gave them the courtesy he did, given the giant middle finger CCP is waving about (in blog-format). Let them know the score, Alec. Give it to them, hard.
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The EVE community is the greatest player base and gamer community I’ve EVER been a part of.
But CCP does not deserve them.
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The content of the blog is not even the worst part, because the worst part is what the blog doesn’t bring up like non-vanity items being sold and if you’re an EVE player you’ll know that this is just the straw that broke the camel’s back. CCP are trying their best to run the game into the ground.
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You do realise they’ve not actually done any of that yet?
Bitch all you want about overprice pretent clothes, but CCP have not, at any point, sold non-vanity items to players. It hasn’t happened. It isn’t “the straw that broke the camels back”, there is no straw.
All you have is a bunch of waffle from a company newsletter. I get company news letters all the time, you know what I learn from them? Nothing, because I don’t read them. Why? because they’re full of meaningless bullshit.
If CCP actually enact any of that, or annouce they they definately will, or even announce that they might, start hollering. Until then – stop fighthing imaginary enemies.
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@Ergates_Antius
It’s good that you’re there to let all these angry people know that they’re hallucinating.
It’s alright everyone, there’s nothing to be upset about. Why? Because they haven’t boned you in this particular way, yet.
Edit: Sarcastic spelling removed in response to editing of the typo that inspired it. That was petty of me.
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Actually it has helpful – pointed out my error :)
EDIT: (my actual point).
There is a difference between “CCP might do this” and “CCP are definately going to do this”. There seems to be an over abundance of the latter based on not a lot of actual hard evidence.
Maybe it’s naive of me to expect it to be otherwise, but people seem overly keen to jump on any piece of evidence, no matter how flimsy, as definative proof that person X or company Y are up to Evil Plan Z.
Maybe it’d be nice if once in a while, people read things, then took a step back and applied a degree of critical analysis to what they’d just read. Asked themselves “What does this actually mean?”
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We’ll be BFF at this rate! Let’s hug. Fiercely.
Edit responding to your actual point: With respect, I think this comment thread has many examples of people thoughtfully examining what this all means.
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Get your dirty common sense of my internet. It’s spoiling my rotten sense of entitlement.
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It’s not just about any one thing to be honest, it really is the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Regarding non-vanity MT and the fact they haven’t yet done it specifically though…
- They some time ago said they had no plans to introduce MT. (Plans change yes, this is just one point).
- They even made an April Fools dev blog in 2008 taking the piss out of the sort of nickle and diming behaviour of other MMO developers.
- Once the said they were introducing MT they explicitly said it would be vanity only.
- The introduction page to the NEx explicitly says it will be vanity only.
- They then publish an internal newsletter discussing MT, published after they’d specifically said no non-vanity MT, which discusses haveing non-vanity MT, and in which the lead developer says he wants it. It may be in the form of a for and against debate but this shouldn’t even be on the table any more, they’ve explicitly told the players they won’t do it.
- EVE is already a subscription based game. Adding *any* MT to a subscription based game is pretty insulting. The prices are just a joke.
Other issues:
There have been so many small instances of CCP showing contempt for their customers.
- “If it looks good it is good” on functionality.
- “Fixing gameplay doesn’t generate income, only creating new stuff does” (paraphrased from memory).
- “Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to set in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change.” – CCP CEO’s just leaked email. Innovation? Good lord.
No fixes to game breaking designs which have been in place for years in some cases.
- Sov warfare in 0.0, one of the backbones of the game is horrendously broken.
- Planetary Industry which was the focus of an earlier expansion is a mind numbing click-fest that really isn’t much good at making income.
- Supercapital ships have been horribly overpowered for ages to the point where it’s not worth bringing much else to an inter-alliance battle. The idea was their extreme price would limit their numbers but….
- Supercapitals are being funded by rampant botting. CCP do actually finally seem to be taking this semi-seriously. They have two guys working on it afaiui.
- They only seem to balance ships once a year or so.
Plus much more.
edit:typo
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“I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say.”
This is the key item. CCP is doing this because they believe EVE players might complain, but they’ll sit there and take it anyway. People are complaining about the insane cost of vanity items. But people are *still* buying them.
A few years ago, people were threatening to quit because CCP was concentrating on new expansions and spin-offs instead of fixing existing code and existing broken functionality. CCP ignored the complainers, and EVE continued onwards because people kept playing and remained willing to buy new stuff even as some called the current stuff broken.
CCP now introduces vanity items, contradicting their previous stance on such systems. People complain, but people keep playing and some buy the items. In the future, CCP will probably go through with directly selling game advantages for real money. People will complain, but people will buy them and EVE will go on.
It helps that these events are staggered, and that is most likely intentional itself. People will take change that they don’t like in small chunks, adapting to each in turn, where a single lump of change might push them too far. The leaked info itself could help CCP in the long run, as players will already have vented most of their anger at buying gameplay advantages (and had their complaints rationalized away) long before CCP ever actually enacts such a system.
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Edit: accidental reply
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Not with RCGT on this one.
Incarna hasn’t affected my EVE playing in the slightest. I don’t see how this mass unsubscribing is supposed to do anything but make it harder for CCP should they face tough financial times.
Either way, Incarna hasn’t diminished the funness of my time in EVE so I don’t see why the rage must be so ragey. Should they further impede my fun in PvP(Perhaps such as implementing badass ships bought for real cash, should people buy these ships with real cash to an extent at which it affects the game), then I’ll consider unsubbing. But for now I think Incarna has added a nice feeling of immersion to the game.
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“you don’t need to buy any clothes”
Heh. Okay!
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*runs around naked*
A game dev made me do it weeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Kieron will be over the moon he’s not alone there…
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“In fact you don’t need to buy any clothes. Whatever you choose to do reflects what you are and what you want others to think you are.” -Does this man not live in the real world? You do need to buy clothes and then wear them, as you get arrested if you walk around outside naked, does he even realise what he’s saying? And second reference to kierons naked journalism, it’s just not right.
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…and then there’s the fact that walking around naked when it’s either very cold or very hot isn’t that good for you. There was a time when clothes were worn for the protection they provided.
Also, anyone who would spend $1000 on jeans should give all their money to someone else. They clearly to stupid to have any,
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@Rich, they are giving that money to someone else, don’t they? (and also a small part to everybody via VAT)
People with loads of money should spend it on consumables, not hoard it like the scaly dragons they are.
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“You do need to buy clothes and then wear them, as you get arrested if you walk around outside naked,”
No you don’t need to buy clothes you could also make them.
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Nicholas Lovell would be proud
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Isn’t this a game about spaceships?
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well, you could probably buy a very large pair of jeans
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You want to pilot that giant cargo ship in style.
A giant pair of pants used as a spaceship sounds like a cancelled Red Dwarf episode.
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Where the briefing room serves two purposes.
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For the record:
“So Glyfason calls for an end to the personal abuse and harrassment of CCP staff, and claims that the newsletter was essentially the firm playing devil’s advocate as it tried to make up its own mind about microtransactions. “The opinions and views expressed in Fearless are just that; opinions and views. They are not CCP policy nor are they a reliable source of CCP views as a company. The employees who submitted articles to that newsletter did exactly what they were asked to do, write about theories and opinions from an exaggerated stand.””
This is fucking insulting.
And apparently they showed this blog to the CSM, and the CSM said in essence “This will ruin your game,” and they published it anyway.
Unbelievable.
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Never known Chaos Space Marines to be so morally well aligned.
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Death to the false emperor and his $1000 space pants.
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$1000 PANTS FOR THE PANTS GOD!
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I don’t play Eve. I’ve never played Eve. But this new nonsense makes me want to roll my eyes at CCP and it makes me very, VERY sad that White Wolf (one of my favourite pen-and-paper RPG developers) have tied themselves to CCP’s mast.
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Indeed. Wait. What?! is the only thing which popped into my head. Somewhere this guy must have lost touch with reality.. at least on this point.
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I’m worried about what this means for World of Darkness as well.
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I too am somwhat troubled by the implications this could have for World of Darkness. It strikes me that’ll be far riper pickings for microtransaction fluff, especially clothing et al, than Eve. I wonder if they’re testing the water for that with this.
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WoD is a dead cert for microtransaction clothes now. Have you seen the fanbase at conventions? The LARPers? The Grand Masquerade?
There are RPG snobs who argue that Vampire et al. are all about selling style with very little substance to back it up. That’s an exaggerated position, but one with a lot of truth behind it. WoD does a wonderful job with its style, setting, and atmosphere. The books tend to focus on that.
The MMO, if it’s half decent, is almost guaranteed to have a roleplaying community vastly larger than any other, people who will actually care how their avatar looks.
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Because its not like White Wolf ever gouged their fans for every penny they could. Out of the two, at least CCP are innovative.
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In-game items should cost in-game money, that is what I think. Why not allow players to buy these clothes with what they call “plex”? Then players who don’t want to spend real money can spend in-game money instead. Frankly, I really hope they don’t ruing the upcoming WoD MMO with this micro-transaction shite.
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You can, but it’s obnoxiously circuitous. You convert ISK to PLEX, then PLEX to the new clothing currency, then that’s used to buy the clothes. But given the conversion rates on everything, it’ll cost you more to get a pair of pants than to play the game for a month.
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My first reaction on hearing about this fiasco was that, since you can apparently convert between the various currencies, this was all a ploy to reduce player wealth. Other MMOs have done the same when money becomes too common, adding ridiculously expensive and borderline useless items to give the rich characters something to waste their wealth on.
But the company’s responses have made it clear this is just real money whoring (and there’s no other word for selling a tiny monocle texture for the price of an Activision game). Wasn’t Eve the MMO that was famous for having a player council in direct contact with the developers?
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When he finished posting that, he went out his luxury house, took his private shuttle and got catapulted to his orbiting spaceship, which costs the same as one pair of japanese pants.
lol.
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Posts like this just re-affirm that people are mad at being priced out of the game. Not that they are fundamentally opposed to buying electronic hats.
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Alternately, it doesn’t re-affirm anything, except perhaps that people have individual opinions that they sometimes express.
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Alter-alternately, people’s opinions are reflections of their sentiments.
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Yes…very insightful. Thank you.
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Good Lord. You’ve nearly managed to achieve a signal to noise ratio as low as Zulu’s.
Allow me to elaborate for James. kikito’s post can reasonably be interpreted as
But you cannot reasonably infer from that that this is the position of the EVE fanbase as a group. You can’t even claim that it’s the majority position.
Honestly, I’m less than impressed with this article, because it focuses on the furore over the pricing. This is NOT what the fanbase is up in arms about. It is a sideline to a sideline, in fact.
READ THIS if you want to know why people are actually pissed off.
I have a sneaking suspicion that CCP are focusing on the prices of vanity items to try and draw fire from the areas they can’t actually defend themselves on. I’m somewhat distressed that Alec has let himself be drawn in this manner (though in fairness he does say he was tired).
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Oh I haz comments.
To clarify: I don’t play Eve at all. My comment was just meant to illustrate the obvious: that virtual stuff can’t be equalized to real stuff, price included. Until a real spaceship costs as much as a virtual one, at least.
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This was the worst attitude to take. “These pixels are COUTURE you see!” This is the digital age of the emperor’s new clothes for sure.
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No, that’s perfectly reasonably. It’s just like how we all wear $1,000 jeans instead of $50 ones. That’s a totally sane analogy.
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“Imagine for a moment that you are a mega-douche, and that you’re concerned with the things a mega-douche is concerned with. See how you were stupid before?”
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I don’t even wear $50 jeans.
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What I love about that analogy (besides the batshit insanity of directly equating reality to a virtual world, ofcourse) is that the world of EVE has no $50 jeans, just the $1000 ones. So, you know, go and be all expressive, guys.
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Really though, if people are complaining about overpriced clothes in the game, comparing them to $1,000 jeans might be the worst thing you could possibly do.
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I wear £12 jeans because they are comfy, are a colour I like and will cover my naughty parts for several years.
(Cliffski wears £75 jeans because he is indie.)
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Imagine for a moment you wear a pair of jeans that cost a as much as three high-end cars.
Go on, imagine it. It’s quite hard to imagine, isn’t it? Because it would be bloody stupid!
Now imagine for a moment those are space-jeans, and they cost as much as three high-end spaceships. Not any less stupid is it? But that’s what they’ve done.
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President Weasel for Analogy President!
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The whole argument is strange. I mean, in real life, even if you buy really expensive pants, you still get a pair of pants. They have a vanity value AND a use. I can’t wear my EVE pants. They won’t protect me from the elements, or whatever. I can’t even resell them, or give them to a charity shop. These pants only have a vanity value.
Also the vanity value is so much smaller, most people have a life outside EVE filled with people much more important to them than random space persons in a game. I seriously doubt they care about one’s virtual undergarments.
Not to mention the manufacturing cost. Even if the EVE pants cost $10, they would be enormously expensive compared to a pair of real jeans.
That’s what I feel is missing from his post, a sense of scale. Judging by the amount of people paying for stuff on XBox Live and what not, it’s obvious that people want virtual vanity items. But real life vanity is so much greater.
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Hell, I know a fashion-conscious New Yorker who only recently spent more than $100 on a pair of jeans.
In Real Life, you don’t necessarily have to pay sticker price. Stores exist that sell surplus from last season, etc. at huge discounts, so you can get those stylish, comfortable $100 designer jeans for $30ish.
There’s a big difference between dressing well and being a massive twat who just buys expensive bling. The former requires taste and effort.
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@TillEulenspiegel
That’s a reasonable distinction, I don’t completely identify with it but appreciate it anyway.
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If you are the sort of person with so much money and so little understanding of it that you buy 1,000 dollar pants, then you are everything that’s wrong with capitalism.
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@TillEulenspiegel
Of course, it’s a little more complicated than such people being “massive twats.” There’s a lot of interesting research into conspicuous spending and it’s causes; it tends to have a lot to do with in-group/out-group dynamics. When we move from a low-prestige peer group to a high-prestige peer group, we have a tendency as human beings to spend conspicuously relative to others in the high-prestige group in order to prove that we belong. It’s a widespread phenomena that has as much to do as consciously being an asshole as falling victim to advertising has to do with being mentally deficient. It’s about social politics, conditioning, ethnic and economic background. I personally find fashion ridiculous, hormones, mood states …
I detest most fashion trends, and find high fashion ridiculous to the point where it isn’t even amusing … just perplexing. As such, I personally buy and wear practically within reasonable social norms (I’ll dress nicely for a job interview and so forth). This is not because I’m more sensible or intelligent than, for example, my sister who does not measure her wardrobe by any practical standard. I can vouch for her being a much more sane, rational human being than I am in most ways. She is also not in the least pretentious. Fashion trends and desires are insidious, and this has little to do with stupidity and twat-ness in people, rahter it’s about people just being people.
This sort of thing is why I think we should make psychology a core curriculum class in public high schools. Help people fight advertising and needless trends/traditions or at the very least understand the degree to which their own decisions are not controlled by themselves, better arming them to take control whensoever they become unhappy with the direction societal norms lead them in. After all, there are plenty of GOOD things about social conditioning and societal norms.
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It’s also worth pointing out that a thousand dollar suit (why didn’t he say suit, it’s a far better real-world analogy?) could conceivably help you in business, if you’re a high-powered CEO or expensive lawyer type and want to project “affluent and powerful”
By the same token, a $300 pair of jeans or a £500 watch could potentially go some way to getting you laid, if you mix in circles where women are impressed by that sort of thing.
None of that applies to these pixels. The theory behind that blog post appears to be that people might buy the monocle for the same reason someone would buy a $1000 watch or suit, but it’s not going to work. A thousand dollar watch has intrinsic value, it is a thing of craftsmanship that should last a lifetime. A thousand dollar suit isn’t that much better than a four hundred dollar suit, but it’s still a suit and it will get you respect from people that know suits.
These pixels will just make you look like a twat that paid real money for pixels.
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If I have the cash to live well and still buy expensive clothes why the fuck should I not do so?
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Well put, President Weasel. Unfortunately, a lot of the psychological pressures that help us in situations where such luxuries DO enhance our social standing and opportunities cause us to spend conspicuously when they don’t. And there’s also the reciprocal phenomenon to consider. People who move from a high prestige group to another, or who simply remain in their group of origin (providing it is high-prestige) have a tendency to spend inconspicuously—but not necessarily practically. Wealthy and prestigious people who have wealthy and prestigious peer groups tend to spend more money on the interiors of their houses and other pieces of private personal property that are seen mostly by themselves and a few select individuals. So sure, digital pants in a game about spaceships where you will almost never be seen seems silly. But silly or not, there is certainly a psychological precedent (if not a well understood one) for people with money and power to make use of it in ways that remind them and their select peers of that money and power.
But of course there are plenty of people who spend conspicuously regardless of their peer group and requisite in-group, out-group pressures. It is those people who buck the trends of in-group, out-group pressures we can begin to analyze in a more personal way based on how they deviate from what is expected. And even then it can sometimes be because for them, peer group perception is altered rather than because they have a personality best described as “massive twat.”
Since money is somewhat illusory to begin with, I can hardly see why this phenomenon WOULDN’T carry over to a digital economy with digital money. So again, it’s more complicated than “this is pointless, no one will see your damn monocle.”
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I made a distinction between those with taste and those without. People without taste who buy inexpensive clothes are merely boring or disinterested or slightly odd. That’s fine. People without taste who buy expensive clothes are very silly, and I shall point my finger and laugh at them.
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I don’t think people have all that much control over their own tastes in clothing or really anything. It’s so subjective to begin with that even if they did, your dislike of someone’s taste has nothing to do with their taste being bad or lacking.
Really, just look at how much good taste varies from culture to culture, country to country. From high fashion to practical garb, traditions and taste vary considerably between social groups. I sincerely doubt that your own tastes come predominantly from those parts of your personality and behavior you have direct control over. The very nature of taste is a comparative one; how well do you stack up against others? Do you pick things that other people respect you for or laugh at you for? WHICH people? Because it has to be the right people to count as good taste. But which people are the right people?
Most of this depends on your peer group and whatever out-groups happen to be most admired/disliked within clear view of that peer group.
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NO SPACE WAR BUT CLASS SPACE WAR
GAMERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CLOTHES!
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I wish I was awake enough to reply to your comment in kind, but, alas, I am too much an asleep person :-(
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On the contrary, Gylfason is exactly right. When you say, “but I just can’t get to the point where I equate a few lines of code and texture files to something that can keep me warm or make me look marginally less horrific when I go out”, you’re forgetting that all clothes – whether $50 or $1000, as he points out – are basically spun cotton or linen or processed oil or whatever. $30 jeans are made out of denim. $300 jeans… also made out of denim. The ENTIRE point is the social element. That’s the same as the “code”, which doesn’t keep you warm or do anything other than display social status.
The fact that you don’t have a response other than “No, it doesn’t sit right” tells me that you just don’t like how expensive the prices are, not that he is fundamentally wrong about selling code used as social status.
In fact, since you go on to say “I wonder if the talk of lower price items arriving soon might just be a veiled admission of error”, it makes me all the more confident that most people are just miffed at being priced out of the EvE clothing market – not at the idea of an EvE clothing market.
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Well, people are miffed at the idea of a clothing market in Eve, but having bitten that bullet, are now upset by the prices, which make no sense (this bit of glass and metal that covers a single eye is as expensive as two 500m long ships and all of the equipment they need to function well?).
$300 jeans and $50 jeans are both made out of denim, but the quality of the denim and craftsmanship in one are significantly higher than in the other. There’s no difference in quality between pixels, however. Unless the cheaper items they introduce are extremely low poly with no textures, this analogy doesn’t really hold any water.
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People are miffed about that.
People are LIVID about the idea of Pay-To-Win in EVE Online, an idea that Arnar has basically confirmed by his refusal to deny it.
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@MCM
I hope you have a lot of money in real life. That would make your position irony-free, at least. Kind of.
You’d still be really silly, though.
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I have no position on EvE’s Incarna and clothing nonsense because I don’t play it. I did in the past but could never really get into the game.
That said, I certainly have a position on Mr. Meer’s article, which basically seems to be “I do not like this but cannot properly articulate why this guy is wrong, except that these items are too expensive.”
On the other hand, I do have some sympathy for the “this is supposed to be a game about spaceships.” But it’s been clear for quite a while that their subscription fees and PLEX fees were being put towards the development of WoD MMO, and not the spaceship game, and many people have been saying that.
That said, it must be quite annoying to have the future of the game revealed to be something you do not like or want. But it has nothing to do with the fact that real clothes are different than electronic clothes. You get nowhere making that argument.
People are going to buy these clothes. I assume we’re not questioning that, right?
@Chesh – “$300 jeans and $50 jeans are both made out of denim, but the quality of the denim and craftsmanship in one are significantly higher than in the other. ”
Yes, they’d certainly like you to think that, wouldn’t they? Personally, I am skeptical. Particularly having worked on a lawsuit involving global sourcing practices for two major clothing retailers.
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As I said elsewhere, that’s just half the point. A jean isn’t only denim. It’s tailoring, distributing, saling, advertising. It has a production cost way more important than a digital pant. And it has a per unit production cost, which a digital pant doesn’t have. It means pricing a real pant implies facing a risk and this risk legitimates you’re pricing : if you do it wrong, you can loose a lot of money – so your risk, your decision. OTOH a digital pant costs close to nothing to get in game and nothing per unit. Its price is speculative. Well, money made on speculative prices is already pretty unpopular when it’s made by speculators, but at least that’s what is expected from them. Money made on speculative prices by an entertainement company just clearly tells that this companies focus is to speculate against its customers rather than entertain them. I hope this makes it clear why there’s no way there’s a limit to gamers patience that’s been crossed here. Because it’s obvious there is one.
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“But it has nothing to do with the fact that real clothes are different than electronic clothes. You get nowhere making that argument.”
If you could just clarify the relevance of what you wrote there, I’d be semi-happy to respond. Well, that’s exaggerating. I’d be annoyed to respond, but I’d do it anyway. For science, and for the love that we share.
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So, I’ve never failreplied before. But, suffice to say that I think the prices are ridiculous. Whether you considering them in isk terms, or dollar terms. Multiple giant spaceships worth, or, you know, more than I usually spend on real pants.
I also think the store itself is ridiculous. I’d much rather they had spent the last 6 months working on gameplay, rather than vanity items that you can only see yourself that are obviously just an excuse to use my money to develop a game I have no interest in.
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@MCM There’s still more of a case to be made for a difference between two pairs of jeans and two pairs of pixels, though.
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I don’t care about the price, I’m pissed about their defense! What kind of jerk pays one thousand dollars for a pair of freakin’ pants?
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Arnar has basically confirmed by his refusal to deny it.
Wow. Take that, logic.
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That’s a rather unfair comparison. You aren’t buying the pixels. The pixels are on your screen. Heck, you aren’t even buying the files as far as I’m aware, they are stored on the server and you’ll be able to view the textures (and thus download the files) when other people wear them in order for other people’s clothing to be rendered on the screen. This isn’t a matter of comparing expensive pixels to other expensive pixels.
What is being sold here is the privilege to wear particular clothing. I think it’s much more reasonable to argue that the privilege isl overpriced, and that artificially trying to replicate the way status symbols work in real life (not that diamonds were artificially made status symbols through forceful advertising and price gouging or anything ….) isn’t as important as making the game enjoyable for players and letting them have their clothing of choice. But it is disingenuous to suggest that these items being sold are “pixels.” Even just comparing the ship to the clothing: are their purposes and uses in the games identical? Are their respective worth and usefulness to various players dependent on the number of pixels they take up at full resolution? I highly doubt it. And as such, find this comparison people keep repeating rather off the mark.
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@ chesh
I’m not so sure. I’ve certainly found lower quality denim products that are much more expensive than the jeans I buy. Some people even buy clothing intentionally tattered and damaged and thus less structurally sound. There are plenty of differences between various pairs of jeans that are unrelated to physical qualities, however: cut/style, alignment with fashion trends, brand name, and so forth. But these features are analogous to the sorts of differences you can find in various vanity items in an online game. And they are hardly rational qualities.
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The whole thing is just so cynical. Personally I stopped paying for EVE a few months ago having been playing on and off since early 2004. CCP have consistantly failed to improve the things that the players actually care about.
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This has to be the bit I most don’t understand. I have tried eve a couple of times. First time in 2009 and I chucked it in a week because of the UI. Couple of months back tried it and the keyboard shortcuts make it worth a shot but… nothing else seemed to have been changed or brought in to resolve glaring errors.
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This is about as mishandled as they could have managed. This will definitely lower their numbers.
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One wonders what they’ll think afterwards. Surely they should have seen this coming. I mean, surely they should give anyone who’ll come even close to communicating for the company a guide on what to do (and say) and what not to. Or at least how you can approach your customers and how you definitely shouldn’t.
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I’m trying to keep a positive attitude towards eve and it’s new update, I really am. Hell, I’m even playing it right now and for all intents and purposes it’s still a spaceship game. But the way they are treating this matter…
It’s hard to root for them at times like this. Keep this up, CCP, and you will lose yet another paying subscriber.
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This is why I only play old games. No DLCs. No micro-transactions. No subscription fees.
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The reason this whole debacle is irritating is because Eve offers something they don’t.
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http://it.justin.tv/deamosseraph#/w/1380742320/2
http://it.justin.tv/dnah_pmip#/w/1381178160/2
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Are you going to mention the cost at any point in an article about the cost?
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“(e.g. a shirt requiring virtual currency worth $25 of real money, or alternatively enough in-game money to buy several very large spaceships)”
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If this was all about ship parts or something it could have been more logical. I do not play EVE, but do you see this chars on game or something? Is so important the clothing they have?
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The leaked newsletter that is mentioned is basically an internal discussion within CCP, where they all talk about and support microtransactions for:
- Ammo
- Ships
- Faction standings
- Weapons
All functional items, all of which fundamentally circumvent the player-driven market and player-driven story that we all signed up for.
Now CCP won’t even deny that they intend to make this a Pay-to-Play, Pay-for-Hats, AND Pay-2-Win game.
That’s what people are quitting about.
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here they all talk about and support microtransactions for:
Have you actually read the newsletter?
The only thing they express an intention for is selling “faction standings”.
The only mention of selling ships is the one that already exists via the route of Cash->PLEX->ISK , i.e. not something they’re intenting to introduce.
The only mention of selling weapons is in referrence to DUST not EVE, so is totally irrelevant.
Also, of the 3 (out of 5) articles that are actually about EVE, one of them is a “point/counter-point” type article, do your assertion that they all support the idea is false.
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Well, if I’m paying $1000 (or even a ‘mere’ $300) for a pair of jeans, I’m primarily paying for:
- high quality fabric that is in short supply, since it uses only the edge of the roll
- higher production time because it is made by fewer people on old, less efficient machines
- the status of being someone with the disposable income to pay that much
- the status of being someone who appreciates the relatively timeless nature of something made similarly to how it was 100 years ago
When I’m paying $70 for a space monocle, I’m primarily paying for:
- the time it took to code it
- the status of having a space monocle instead of two fully fitted battleships
So, I guess if we want cheaper items, they’ll be coded by children in a Mexican sweatshop?
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You mention
“- the status of being someone with the disposable income to pay that much”
But you don’t list it under both, when it clearly goes under both.
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Ahahaha – no-one is actually stupid enough to think designer clothing is different to offbrand/cheap brand clothing are they???
No really!?
The same sweatshop factories which make £1000 frocks for designer chains make £30 ones for Asda – the difference in price is the label and the fucktonne of marketting intended to make shallow people BELIEVE it”s more than that.
I really do not believe anyone here is stupid enough to believe jeans costing $100s are substantially different from a pair which cost $30 – the difference is purely in the mind of the purchaser…
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Evidence would be more convincing than insults.
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Evidence isn’t going to be easy to find – the level of secrecy around this stuff in immense – but let’s apply our brains at this point.
The lack of evidence and the level of secrecy tells us quite a bit – surely if these brands had high-end factories knocking out their tat, they’d not be trying to hide where they are? Surely they’d be making a noise about instead, creating websites so you could stare at the ends of those rolls of cloth and shiny sewing machines!?
Stop kidding yourself, when you buy ‘designer’ items you’re paying for the marketting which made you want them in the first place – not the clothing itself (above and beyond what’s needed to ensure they don’t fall to bits too quickly).
If you actually wanted ‘quality’ clothing you’d goto a bespoke tailor/shoe maker, not a shop selling sweatshop manufactured over-marketted shite…
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“Lack of evidence” never tells us anything, because, see, there’s a lack of evidence.
Funny, that.
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It’s really not upto me (or anyone else) to prove that designer clothes are made by people paid pennies and using the same machines/materials as are used for cheaper clothing – it’s upto the people claiming their clothing is made of the highest quality materials by skilled and happy people using high-tech equipment to prove their claims surely???
Thing is – you don’t see designer brands making any such claims anyway. It’s usually the people who buy ‘the labels’ who are defending their decision with spurious and unproven claims of quality and other benefits – the brands just keep showing you the tags and the celebrities wearing them…
I don’t believe anyone buys ‘designer’ because of the material or the manufacturing quality anyway – they buy designer because they want ‘REPLAY’ across their arse or “Karen Millen” on the tag and they then sell their decision (to themselves or others) with weird beliefs that the material gives them extra luck or more height or whatever. In some ways I admire the people who admit this a lot more than the ones who are telling me their jeans are bulletproof or their frock makes their tits look bigger…
On that basis, CCPs comments actually make more sense – they are tapping into the same bizarre concept, that people WANT the expensive T shirt/monocle or whatever and will be willing to pay for it – indeed that it’s MORE desirable because it’s expensive.
It’s just that CCP needs an in-game Primark perhaps :)
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I kind of expected johnpeat to close with “OPEN YOUR EYES, MAN”, or “IT’S A CONSPIRACY!” to close out the spectacle, but alas, such did not happen.
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Jaw drop.
This. Is incredible. I’m usually not at a loss of words but.
Wow. I think I’ll have to think of a good response, but I’m not sure it’ll evolve beyond the “Fuck You” that has been my first thought for the last 10 minutes.
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By the way, am I the only one who remembers when it was said that clothing was supposed to be player made too?
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You’re not, no. I’m sure that’s something they’ll add later, though. I’m SURE.
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*fluffles Bato*
No you’re not alone, everything WiS (back then we didn’t have no fancy latin words for this pile of steaming garbage) was supposed to be player made and run, iirc.
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If anyone made such a comment, surely that will have been more exaggeration and/or playing devil’s advocate.
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You know I think he has a point. Personally I wouldn’t buy them, I wouldn’t buy them at any price but then I also buy the cheapest jeans that won’t fall apart within a week. Physical vanity items are often about power and social position and I can’t see why software ones are different in that respect. I recall seeing someone running about in a $99 charity TF2 hats and it did make me think about that player and who they were. I mainly thought that they were probably fairly rich but at least they gave money to a good cause so fair play to them. If the EVE items weren’t expensive they would be meaningless vanity items but since they aren’t they’re a powerful show of conspicuous consumption. Who wants to spend that much money sending that message, I don’t know, but I bet someone does and now they can, seems reasonable to me.
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I disagree that it’s reasonable to cater to the narcissistic tendencies that are already pervasive in our real, meatspace society, especially when the format is a game about space ships.
That’s not the entirety of the problems anyway, as I’m sure you’re aware.
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The game being about space ships enhances the conspicuous consumption aspect. These are people buying utterly unnecessary things. “I could buy a giant battleship or two, or I could get some socks … well, who needs a battleship? I can hire three at the snap of my fingers. Give me the socks!”
They are being called, by players and developers, “vanity” items. Vanity. Not “clothes.” Vanity items. I can certainly understand not wanting to recreate the lesser aspects of our society in digital economies like Eve, and I can thus understand wanting to limit the number of luxury offerings that exist purely to create social divides. But if you are comfortable with having these items considered luxuries and termed vanity items, and if their sole purpose is to flaunt and expose … surely it is not surprising when the prices are set at luxury levels?
Personally, I would be more worried with the existence of vanity items instead of the price. Once the items are in play, so is the social dynamic. Then it’s just a matter of scale. I’m uncomfortable with the whole dynamic of luxury status symbols and as such don’t give a damn how much they cost.
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Like any game that has purely cosmetic items for sale I don’t see the problem with it. Yes in this instance it is very overpriced so just don’t buy it.
I have only played a little of Incarna since release and as far as I can tell you are limited to your own quarters in a station so it’s not like anyone can meet you to see what you’re wearing. The most I ever see of other players beyond their ship is their profile picture if I click on it, or in the chat windows.
If CCP had added the clothing feature and not announced it, it would probably take me years of playing to ever realise it was even an option, so far away it is from the actual gameplay.
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The intention is that soon you’ll be wondering around entire space stations with other people. And why should people have to pay massive amounts of real life money to purchase skins in a game they’re already subbing for?
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But there’s the key words, “have to”. There is no have to about it.
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There is if they start charging for game-changing stuff like their memo says.
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They haven’t yet. I was under the impression we were talking about clothes.
I haven’t read the memo yet, so I don’t know how justified the concern is.
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“Assume for a short while that you are wearing a pair of $1,000 jeans…”
Sorry, but that’s an assumption I can’t get past.
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“Why would you want to wear a pair of $1,000 jeans when you can get perfectly similar jeans for under $50?”
Fuck – I wouldn’t even spend $50 on jeans. £20 gets a perfectly decent pair and that’s what, $35?
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The logic on those prices is nothing to do with real money but entirely to do with ISK I suspect.
The guy who has squillions of ISK lying around doesn’t really give a crap if an item costs a fortune, it is basically free to him anyway, I would be very surprised if the devs in anyway imagined that items that are that expensive would enter the game by people actually paying real moolah. I suspect it is just intended to be an ISK sink.
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Then why create a new currency specifically for this, and have people buy that with IRL money? Why not just have ridiculous ISK prices? I think that would do a better job of conveying that message. Even if you can technically exchange this for that, the system in play does not imply it is primarily an ISK sink.
As regards the blog post, I think a relevant difference between this and IRL brand clothes is the lack of competition. Yes, there are clothes with bizarre prices, but there are alternatives in a variety of prize ranges. CCP is in a position of monopoly. Louis Vitton is not.
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It’s not even an ISK sink AT ALL.
The way the system is set up, ISK never moves anywhere except from player to player.
‘sides, they actually have inflation well in hand. The economy could do with a little cooling, but it’s in pretty good shape all round.
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The idea of microtransactions in a subscription based game just bother me. I don’t care for it, leaves a sour taste in my mouth. One or the other, please.
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t’s like billing you to get into a show and billing you again to get out.
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It’s more like billing you to get in, then billing you for everything there, like the seat, the table, the act, the lights, the labor, etc.
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They ran this by the CSM, Council of Stellar Management, that’s supposed to act as a bridge between the playerbase and the devs. The CSM was very displeased with the draft of the blog as it didn’t address any of the concerns voiced by the playerbase, and then hours later they still publish the blog virtually unchanged. They’re also banning well known community members for being a bit too loud on the forums.
Also, CCP have specifically said that they would NEVER charge for non-vanity items, yet their leaked internal dialogue suggests that it’s only a matter of time.
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If I played EVE I would just run around buck naked.
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Everybody will see your cockpit!!!
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I laughed at this more than I should have.
Way more than I should have.
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Simultaneously obnoxious and obtuse, bravo sir. Truly astounding.
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This is the perfect way to introduce cosmetic only items. It is all about status, no different than IRL. You can either work out here and make money to get what you want, or work in there and do the same thing.
Don’t be a bitch.
Best. Move. Ever.
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You are a damn goofy fool. I write that with love.
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all hail CYBERSPACE *dummmmmmm*
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It’s similar to when Blizzard started selling that glittery flying horse in WoW. I mean, most people wouldn’t spend £626 on a glittery flying horse because you can get a perfectly good one for £32, but some people… rode… regular wolves and wore cheap jeans and… no, sorry I’ve lost myself.
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This amuses me.
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It seems this whole MT business was pretty much the final straw. It blew the lid off a lot of simmering rage that’s been going on for a long time now. Anyone who’s ever played EVE knows about all the half finished features, poorly implemented stuff, blatantly unbalanced ships/weapon types, a sound engine with crappy sound effects that might aswell not exist, the list goes on & on. Only very recently has there been a small team dedicated to polishing stuff up and that’s really only the minor, easy stuff. All the big features just sit there rotting away.
Unless they radically change their vision on EVE and devote a lot more resources to overhauling/polishing the bigger features this game will be virtually dead over the next few months if not weeks. It’s that bad. What a waste really considering how unique this game is.
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Correct.
The other thing that’s pissed people off is the lies spouted by CCP over the past year or so.
12 months ago CCP Shadow posted a number of times that the company had no plans whatsover to alter their business model, let alone introduce MT in any way shape or form. While he might not have been lying, he’s obviously been lied to and then fed it to the player base, because there’s no way that the entire Noble Store and AUR system has appeared within a few months from conception to product.
The other aspect is dealing with Incarna (WiS) directly. Notably they promised it would be optional. It isn’t by a long shot. Which is really getting some people’s goat because it’s not only incomplete (1 of the 4 bloodlines quarters is out to use, let alone interaction), it doesn’t add any features at all, and it’s also poorly optimised, hammering some peoples systems and thrashing GPUs.
I don’t have any performance issues, but the EvE client when idling has jumped up by about 20% CPU cycle wise and it’s memory footprint has jumped up to ~900mb from ~400mb. That’s obviously going to be a problem for people with machines older than my one year old one.
As a side note, they’ve already said they’ll be removing items from the current character editor in the future (not the Creator, but the in-station editor). The result being that you pick a ‘default’ outfit out a decent sized pool in the creator, but if you want to wear any of the other base stuff, you have to pay.
Don’t get me wrong here though, I love the idea of Incarna in the future, especially with the new contraband changes coming up and the creation of a player run “off-grid” black market of illegal goods and boosters. But the way it’s been handled currently is incredibly poor.
If anything, this hyped up 1.0 release needs at least 2 months more work on it for people to be happyish. not withstanding the massive MT issues looming over it.
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I know this is crazy…but…you know…maybe…they CHANGED THEIR MINDS.
Some people, out there, are willing to shell out 50k for sports cars. Some people are willing to shell out 80$ for jeans, our 1000 for an “I am Rich” app on iPhone. Why the hell wouldn’t they exploit these people?
Capitalism people – EVE is based on it. People want to buy these things – you’re just bitter you can’t.
There is no evidence, at all, that we’re going to say Pay2Win transcations. That they’ve considered it? yup. So what?
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EVE has sound?
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Once again posting this excellent summation of the issues. Actually, I am going to spam this all over the thread to make sure it gets noticed.
Quoting verbatim from the link:
For emphasis:
This wouldn’t be so much of a problem if the playerbase had any confidence whatsoever that CCP will listen to them. But that confidence just isn’t there.
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He’s quite obviously making way too much money with EVE. The good news is that this problem should solve soon by itself.
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I actually beleive that the rich clothes will be a good fit in the EVE online universe. The game is very much about apperances and politiking, and in that regard, this brings to mind images of rich aristocrats wearing their fancy clothes and monocles planning invasions of entire worlds. Just my 2 cents.
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I agree, but I think that would be far better represented by these clothes being available for ludicrous sums of ISK rather than a new, pay for, currency. That way, it would be EVE’s in-game upper classes that would have them rather than the real world upper classes.
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You’re right. They haven’t explained why they introduced a new currency system just for these clothes.
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And BTW the real point is that a jean has a per unit production cost – hey, if it’s a brand, also include hyped, expensive advertising and endorsers. So there’s some sort of risk for the company selling those, which make pricing a decision they have to assume somehow. I think here everyone gets more or less clearly that its not the same at all, that per unit productions cost is null, that overall production costs are close to null and that those vanity items just have a speculative value. Well, most people accept (because they are poor uninformed things) speculative prices from speculator, but when a gaming company rely on speculation rather than gameplay to make money, there’s something absolutely wrong.
Also, cocaine is not suggested when writing an answer to an angry community.
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I can tell you’re a bittervet from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few bittervets in my time
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So tell me, why are diamonds so expensive? Or sapphires. That’s a better one. Because I could make sapphires in my garage. It’s not too difficult, but the fumes are a bit of a problem. In fact, artificial sapphires have fewer flaws. They are more geometrically/chemically perfect crystals. But of course that makes the natural, flawed stones worth more! The color they get from being cracked and fractured on the inside is associated with depth and value while the color of more perfect crystals is considered fake and cheap looking.
Luxury item pricing rarely has anything to do with production cost or risk or whatnot. Luxury pricing is based primarily on social phenomena. Sometimes the companies even manufacture the social phenomena–as with diamond companies. Every time you hear someone say that diamonds are forever you are hearing the result of one of the most successful advertising slogans in the history of the western world. Luxuries are quite often rammed down our throats and we learn to want it because we are told to want it.
I’ve been posting a lot of comments like this, so I’ll clarify: I’m damn glad there are a lot of people who don’t want to be pushed around like that. I want luxury culture to collapse in games and beyond. But I also want people to recognize the full picture and recognize that this situation isn’t in the slightest bit unusual and I don’t think it’s unethical either. I despise it, but recognize there’s more going on here than overpriced pixels or overpriced jeans.
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I’m so glad i cancelled a while ago. Heck, this game makes Runes of Magic look like angels! And how can you compare fake items with real ones? Why not make the ships cost like real ships if they want to go down that road?
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Someone wrote up a great article about this whole issue.
http://eve.beyondreality.se/NeXCQResponse.html
Also, Jita Riot: http://www.justin.tv/deamosseraph#/w/1380742320/3
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That was written pre- this blog
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That blog is just fuel for the flames, it literally proves the author’s point that CCP are failures in communication.
It is about this issue, this issue being CCP not listening, CCP breaking promises, CCP making poor moves, etc.
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Well damn, someone beat me to it.
Yes, read this. The prices of the vanity items really have very, very little to do with why people are pissed. Just a little more salt in the wound.
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I can understand people’s anger about CCP’s lousy handling of the situation but you know, I’d consider buying skill points to freely spend, just to save some time. Or a ISK boost when running agent mission, so I have to run less missions to get that one thing I’ve been saving for.
I don’t know how I feel about buying items directly from them, bypassing the economy the game is famous for.
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Yo dawg, I put a microtransaction in your subscription, so you can pay while you pay.
People have cut power to the houses of Titan pilots so they can blow up an internet spaceship.
Any non-vanity MT is automatically Pay-to-Win.
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I used to play Eve. ‘Used to’ being the operative words. There is no curse in elvish, entish or the tongues of men for this treachery.
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Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!
That seems appropriate.
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You guys are awesome.
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I’m not quite understanding the issue here… So, some vanity items are up for sale at absurd prices, but I’m guessing that’s not the issue. From what I can tell the issue is that people have taken something (“Greed is good” memo) out of context and have gone all “doom and gloom” on CCP.
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Nah people are pissed because the spaceships part of EVE has been on the backburner for a while as CCP works on their engine for World of Darkness, from which we get Walking in Stations as a spin off.
For years they’ve promised us how awesome WiS will be and just you wait it’ll knock your socks off. Don’t worry that Faction Wars or the Sovereignty system or even basic ship balancing all desperately needs work, they’ll get to that after WiS. Well we’re here now, the first iteration of WiS, and it’s a badly optimised pile of poop with zero gameplay and a cash shop.
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No, see, they took the memo in context. They are planning in selling much more than vanity items, too.
People were already pissed that CCP weren’t fixing the game, now they find out that what they HAVE been working on is bullshit ways to squeeze more money out of the playerbase.
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Once again, the actual issues at hand summed up here.
It is fairly complex, and a lot of it is built on past grievances that were never properly resolved. If you want it boiled down though, the current flashpoint is that CCP are considering non-vanity MT items (“Pay-2-Win”) and the complete lack of faith the playerbase has that if they stand up and say, for the nth time, that gameplay-meaningful MT items are not, have never been and will never under ever circumstances be anything other than completely and utterly unacceptable, CCP will even pause long enough to notice.
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Talking about virtual clothes is fine and all, but everyone here seems to be missing out on what’s really happening.
Take this quote from a 210+post thread over the last day.
//quoted from http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536065&page=207#6206
Over 10% of the total active players on Eve-Online have posted in this thread (obviously not including repeat posters). Many of these have unsubscribed. CCP – You have ruined your reputation and I fear of what may happen to this game we all love to bits.
The community is seriously outraged at the actions of over the last few years. You guys can still EARN back our trust and save this game, but the current madness must stop.
It’s such a simple formula. Listen to your customers, they are your bread and butter! If your customers are happy, they’ll keep playing your game. If they are unhappy, they’ll leave. Eve Online is unique and it will be a sad, sad day if we ever see the day when people no longer play Eve Online on-mass, an empty carcass of it’s older, former glory. We all built this game up from the first player from scratch, isk by isk, hour by hour.
CCP, you CAN kill this game if you keep up the attitude of the last few years.
Do you really want that?
//quote
10%+ of the player base this disgruntled? This doesn’t even mention the 5000 players + rioting on eve online by attacking certain structures at mayjor trade points, effectivly closing them down.
Yeah..
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Are there videos of that ingame riot?
Sorry, didn´t saw the link on the other comment.
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Photos and livestream:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1536803/page/1
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So they started with what they think would be the less controversial items?
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It really sounds like these items were just a jumping off point for all of the real controversy to start up again—including the items that may be in the works and all of the issues CCP has left unsolved while making some fancy shirts.
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Wow. Thats tough!
It’s insulting at best..
Following this line of thought, it leads to imagining that those ‘low price’ stuff will make you look like a bum…a Space-bum…
MMO-s should focus on letting people achieve extraordinary things they cant in real life..Have a nicer suit..better shoes..Spaceship..You , the poor fella from the village can be the God of the server..
So lets ruin that feeling of taking up another role by smashing real life society’s problems at the game..
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Hahahahaha, I had to make an account here to just exclaim how much this cracked me up! I can add feeling like a space bum to my list of reasons for quitting today!
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The time has come, fellow capsuleers: let’s raise or voice.
http://twitter.com/We_boycott_EVE
http://on.fb.me/mNJKM7
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Christ, CCP are falling ever deeper into a pit of… well, I don’t know what. But they sure don’t live in the real world.
“Assume for a short while that you are wearing a pair of $1,000 jeans from some exclusive Japanese boutique shop. Why would you want to wear a pair of $1,000 jeans when you can get perfectly similar jeans for under $50?”
…I’m pretty sure that I have no concept of what wearing 1000 dollar jeans is like, nor will I ever. And right, why -would- I want to wear that pair of jeans? I shop at thrift and vintage stores. I’m not paying more for virtual clothes than I pay for real clothes. That’s silly.
Or maybe I should look at it in game terms. Why the fuck would I buy a pair of pants (keeping in mind, I’m already wearing perfectly good pants, which I chose in chargen because I thought they matched my character’s self-expression) when I could have the option of buying lots of huge spaceships and blowing shit up instead. It’s a game about internet spaceships, not internet pants.
But why are we even having this debate? Walking in stations was supposed to be a cool way to interact with others. What we’ve gotten is a completely pointless room you can stand in by yourself, and admire your overpriced clothing. I can only assume they spent so much time and money adding all this superfluous shit to the game that they forgot that it’s a game.
Maybe they’ll ‘iterate’ on it, and gives us some form of social interaction. More likely, they’ll get distracted by some shiny new feature, and forget to ‘iterate’, uncaring because they’re still making tons of cash.
But yeah, it’s not about the pants, it’s not about captain’s quarters, and it’s not about microtransactions. CCP either has no fucking clue what it’s customers want, or (and it seems more likely) they just don’t give a fuck. We’ve been asking CCP for literally years to fix the shit that they half-assedly added to the game promising to ‘iterate’ in the future, then never looked at again. T3 ships, faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos/epic arcs, tier 3 battleships, on and on. This is shit that we’ve been asking for for literally many years.
Apocrypha was cool, it gave us t3 cruisers and wormholes. CCP told us they’d give us more t3 ship types in future expansions…
Dominion reworked sovereignty (from broken to broken-in-a-different-way). Oh, and facebook. Admittedly, the new in-game browser was nice.
Tyrannis gave us planetary interaction. The worst UI in the world (admittedly, they did work on that eventually). They also kind of updated facebook, nobody kept using it. Oh, I forgot, PI is really just laying the groundwork for their console-only FPS.
Incursion gave us Incursions, which were pretty well recieved (though largely because they’re a ludicrously easy way to amass wealth). Oh, and a character generator for their WoD mmo.
Now Incarna gave us a room to stand in, and a clothing shop. …For the WoD mmo. Also new models for the turrets, which I guess are pretty, but have zero effect on gameplay… kind of like the rest of the expansion.
The point is, there are lots of things we want for the game. CCP knows these things, they even have shareholders who are in place to tell them those things. And with every expansion, they go ludicrously further from the things that we keep asking them for. They tell us they’re committed to excellence, and we say “So why is everything in the game half-assed?” So they reply “Because we will iterate it to greatness!”
The reason the playerbase is so incredulous is because of all of this. CCP are fucking insane, and stubborn as an ass. They need to forget this grand vision they have, take a look at the hodgepodge game they’ve got, and start fixing it. Once they have a strong foundation, they can build upon it.
Walking in Stations sounded awesome, and everybody in the game wanted it…. 5 years ago. Now we just want a game that lives up to the potential that we all see. In the meantime, we’re tired of CCP ignoring us to chase after money. And yes, that’s what they’re doing. That’s why they have an item shop, that’s why they’ve spent the last few years developing technology for other games. That’s why we think this is all so crazy. And that’s not even getting into the bizarre thought that MT is in any way good for a game that is literally about it’s persistent, player driven economy.
And yes, that is a crazy wall of text, but it’s written now, so may as well post it.
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I liked your wall and I’m glad you posted it.
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I’ve been listening to the CSM chat on eve radio, and there was a quote that sums up the way I feel about it:
It’s becoming clear that Eve is CCP’s playground, no longer the players’
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When will we start seeing spam about forking shoes for Eve?
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*Inserts hat joke*
No wait,
*Inserts shirt joke*
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http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/CCP-Games-Reviews-E159347.htm
I’m surprised that Eve has lasted this long. As a long-time player, this saddens me deeply.
edit: Bassism laid it down perfectly.
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His name was spelled wrong last 2 times of the article .. its Gylfason not Glyfason, I’ve never played EVE.. EVEn they’re from Iceland like me, then again always heard how hard it was to learn it, 25$ does seem a lot for some clothes and he made some weird comparison with real life pants.. ‘n specially 1k dollar pants,
though speaking of weird, not used to see someone from same country always called by his last name :P
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I’ll reiterate my feelings once more for any CCP employees or game developers who may stumble on this.
Microtransactions in a $15/month subscription based game can fuck right off.
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I second this notion vehemently. Especially the fuck right off part. Getting a bit tired of that myself.
If it were one or the other, fine, but both is getting a little bit old. The only reason I tolerated it in Champions Online is because they gave me a lot of free money.
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While I do agree, I think we should be more precise.
A full subscription plus mt? Fuck off.
A very tiny subscription plus mt? Fuck off slightly less.
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OMG! They should do a Celestial Steed in Space! Who wouldn’t want to add a flying horse added to thier fleet of spacecraft?
They should charge $10,000 for it: people would totally pay that. -_-
Seriously though: I find it hard to grasp how charging for items in a game that you pay a monthly sub for is fair let along overpricing it… this is a stupid move and it must be stopped or they could just go free-to-play with microtransactions, that always lowerers the sting in moves like theses!
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Stopped reading when he referred to vanity as “vainness”. There’s a language barrier and then there’s pissing Bilbo off, that was the latter
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CCP needs money.
The player base of EVE are rioting because of a rumor from a leaked message on what CCP would do in the future, spurred on by the vanity market they’ve set up now. CCP hasn’t made a non-vanity market yet, but if players don’t feed real-life money into the vanity market, they might just.
The player base of EVE are also rioting because, in their view, CCP broke an unspoken promise that they wouldn’t change their business model, which brings us to Point A:
CCP needs money.
The player base of EVE need to realize that CCP isn’t Valve, wherein Valve can make F2P games because Valve is made of money. If the player base of EVE want EVE molded in their image, they have to pay what it costs to maintain EVE’s updates.
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CCP makes a lot more money from subscriptions in a month than many developers ever do, certainly more than they made for several years after the launch of Eve.
If they are actually hurting for money, perhaps they should downsize and re-evaluate their priorities. I find it hard to believe that they need MT money to maintain the status quo. Actually, I find it impossible to believe (see my first paragraph).
They want the moneys so they can be bigger and better and more amazing (in their eyes). Maybe they think more people will come to their yearly parties that way, I don’t know.
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Yeah, it’s called a subscription.
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What kinds of developers are we comparing them against? What kind of income compared to the costs of running their game and developing new games? What kind of investment are they getting outside of subscription revenue?
You seem to want a conclusion in where CCP are just subverting their long-term income – destroying a long-term relationship with their clientele – because of some random will to hurt you. Unless they all got massive, debilitating cocaine habits in the last three months, I would seek another reason.
While I concede that not all economics are rational, this seems to have a pretty obvious source: They need money, and clearly what they’re getting in subscriptions isn’t up to snuff.
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http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000-players-63170-simultaneous-users-in-january/
360,000 subscribers at $15/month so around $5,400,000 per month. So that has to be one hell of an expensive cocaine habit they got there.
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Except to keep a lot of subs they allowed players to effectively pay for subs in ISK. Also, that number means nothing without running and development costs.
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Nalano, you can not pay for your sub in isk without that game time coming via gtc from ccp first.
CCP is not losing any money for anyone using plex for their accounts.
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Someone has to spend real life money to buy the PLEX that is used to pay for the account. They aren’t just generated in game and added to the market. So no, they aren’t in effect paying for their account with ISK. Someone is still paying real life cash for it.
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I’m fairly certain that they own their servers, so unless you’re suggesting bandwidth costs them more than a few million every month I think there’s plenty of room to squeeze in a few salaries for developers (that actually develop the game, not the dress up party in the game).
They “need” money because they like to spend it on their egos/ambitions, not because Eve costs too much to maintain (or even develop new content for, since I’m pretty sure they didn’t have any huge investors early on), or because they’ll be screwed later if they don’t…though they may have actually convinced themselves of that.
I strongly suspect it’s just plain greed and the self-righteousness that comes with success. That’s my reasonable take on the last several years of paying attention to the stuff they say and do.
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Yes, but 1) owning your servers means that you had to buy them at some point, and you have to upgrade them at some point.
And owning the servers doesn’t mean you own the datacenter in which they’re hosted.
And owning the servers doesn’t mean they require no electricity. Or no staff to monitor them.
True, it does seem likely that Eve subs are currently paying for keeping Eve running.
But then what about their WoD game? Dust? Those developers have to be paid too.
Anyway, I have no clue what CCP can or cannot afford. I just wanted to point out that the “they own their servers, so it costs them nothing” argument is silly. Owning servers is expensive enough that many companies try to *avoid* it.
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@jalf
Yeah, thanks for summarizing my point into a point that it was not, and ignoring the rest of it.
By the way, the other games you mentioned them working on fall into the category of not Eve, which makes them a different consideration. You have fun thinking whatever though, I’m sure I’m just not understanding the nuance of the situation.
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Obviously CCP went about it the wrong way. They tried to design the market. It’s impossible. Market is created by the community ( be it in game or in rl) They should have given people a lot of different, but limited options, and very reasonably priced so it doesn’t create outcry. And review the sales and community response on the weekly basis. Then expand on what is popular, listen to your customers and profit.
re:clothes
they should have created a stock ones for 50p and release cloth making tools, and let other players sell their designs. Promotes creativity and additional fame for best designers. Money goes to the designer. (less the market fee)
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Does he actually know who he’s talking to?
These are players of the most “hardcore” MMO in existence. I HIGHLY doubt any of them are concerned enough about their appearance to buy $1,000 jeans. More like a $10 pack of undershirts from the local Wal Mart or [insert UK equivalent here].
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…… i’m glad that he explained the newsletter (didnt know there was a question mark at the end of “greed is good?”), but going on about $1000 jeans makes him seem bat shit insane.
he shouldve just stopped after he explained the reason for that title.
I can kinda understand what he is implying about buying expensive clothes, but the point is, its not like anyone is commissioning a programmer to write them the code for a pair of jeans they have designed.
If that was the case, i can understand the cost being so high.
There has to be something tangible exchanged (e.g even time) for that to be justified.
….but then again, the same can be said for the “cheaper” items that wil be sold too.
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They just messed up the pricing strategy and the marketing strategy. They should just admit that, roll back, and try again in 6 months with the lesson well learned or after hiring someone who understands this business.
I believe they should have relied more in actual market research, determined that “crap” buying culture was not really there in their customer-base, and established an initial, very cheap offer, to allow the dark instincts to express themselves with a very low entry barrier, and then increase the income by introducing the more expensive, “exclusive” items.
You don’t bully people into buying, that is for sure…
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replyfail.
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I really, really, really wish they’d take all the money they earn from those vanity items, and buy something extremely expensive and useless with it. Like a big gold-plated car and then drive it off a cliff just to rub it in!
Giant trololol, do it CCP!
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I understand the reasoning behind the $25 clothes, but what I don’t understand is that they’re going along with it even though they know that a significant amount of their playerbase will hate them for it. Is it really worth pissing off the people that give you money and turning them away from your game over some stupid microtransaction shit? Are they THAT hungry for money and THAT willing to screw over their players?
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I’m an ex Eve player because of this utterly moronic behavior on CCP’s part.
I only want to add this tidbit to the inanity that is the DevBlog response. Incarna, Eve’s avatar system, currently has only 1 one that only you can enter alone.
NO ONE CAN (as of yet) SEE YOUR $1000 digital jeans.
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What a shame!
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Yeah, so.
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/06/25/ccp-hilmar-global-email-shows-the-reasoning-behind-ccp-zulu-devblog/
I… don’t even.
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I can’t even pull up a google cached copy of that page, let alone the original :)
The wait for more drama is killing me!
Free Helicity Boson!
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Helicity reposted it – http://www.machine9.net/blog/?p=615
It’s a doozy .. Hilmar drank the coolaid and is serving it to the rest of CCP
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If this is the kind of attitude that CCP (or any large company for that matter) has towards us, I guess it kind of explains a lot of things in the game industry. The 70 dollar monocle was an entirely intentional choice, chosen for the highest possible profit according to in-depth research. And of course the players are whining about it, but just give them some time and they’ll buy monocles too.
I was actually going to resub my two accounts this weekend. They have a lot of work to do if they hope to see another dime of mine.
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I’ve already cancelled my 5(!) accounts and have heard most of my in-game and out of game friends who play have done the same. All of them also have multiple accounts ( who doesn’t in eve? ). From what I hear we’re just a drop in the bucket of people cancelling. This just further solidifies my decision.
The only thing remaining to me is wondering how much grief I can cause before my accounts run out. I sure won’t be coming back this time.
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If that is authentic then;
1- I am not surprised.
2- I am still somehow surprised.
3- I am totally fine with not playing Eve anymore, it actually feels kind of good now.
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I can’t quite agree with his point, but at least they acknowledged that there was some misgivings amongst the community. Thats more than was heard from the TF2 team when they brought out hats costing 20 euros. Overall I feel expensive items like these serve to detract focus from the core game, which may be particularly damaging for EVE as it appears to me to be one of the most “real” virtual worlds to exist.
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The only problem with this is that they’re saying that “this item is simply better than another item for no other reason than the price is higher and the price is higher because we said it is higher”.
Everything should be a PLAYER CREATED item and the value should be set by the open player base market, determined by scarcity, quality, creativity, time involved in creating it, resources used to create it and so on.
This is all just a bunch of un-EVE-like artificially determined bullshit.
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Er. So what are people upset about?
What he says is perfectly correct.
If items are purely vanity items then they have no intrinsic value – they simply have the value of what people are willing to pay for them. If they sell virtual jeans for $5 or $500 or $5000 it doesn’t actually make any difference – people will pay for them if they want them, or not if they don’t.
Just like I won’t buy and $1000 Evisu jeans, but a fair number of people around here seem willing to. To me that’s crazy, they jeans sure don’t have that intrinsic value – it’s all markup due to their exclusive nature and vanity value. But in that they are no different to vanity items in EVE.
http://www.amazon.com/Evisu-Limited-edition-jeans/dp/B000BX7MFC
If you don’t think a virtual shirt is worth $25 then don’t buy it. Simple as that.
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Can I get a refund on the money from my subscription that went into developing their clothing simulation and monetary transaction layer?
And please stop trying to make out the outrage is about the vanity items. No one gives a shit if someone pays $70 for a cluster of bits. They care about the stated implication that this will lead to the sale of items of true in-game worth.
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What’s a fair number? 52? (that’s how many monocles they’ve sold so far)
Who are these people anyway, so willing to purchase extravagant pants? Do they also play Eve? How did you come by this information?
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You don’t get refunds. You don’t get refunds because they implemented WH and you don’t live there, or because you never take part in Incursions.
As for the newsletter, Brainstorming is good policy in any company. Move on.
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Actually, i’m still trying to work out WHY they give a shit.. and failing.
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This really has nothing to do with the price of vanity items.
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“…….. I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say………”
:- I
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“You don’t need to buy expensive clothes. In fact you don’t need to buy any clothes. Whatever you choose to do reflects what you are and what you want others to think you are.”
So CCP gets money from the vain – who loses?
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Correct me if I’m wrong but…
Incarna only shows your character entering the Captain’s Quarters, wich it´s a solo experience. Soooo, what’s the point of vanity items if nobody can look at you?
The more I think about this, the more I believe this is the NGE of Eve for real. Years later they someone will interview Noah or whoever and he will say “we royally screwed up.” Just like it happened with Galaxies.
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i spend money on games, not pants.
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God, you lot all like to whine.
Vanity items, that you don’t need to buy, are particularly expensive. SHOCK HORROR. Who cares if they’re 10$, 50$, or 100 for that matter – they’re still vanity items, which cost bugger all. This is capitalism: people are charged what they’re willing to pay. And you know what? People are buying.
Credo of the good saleman: If your customers buy, but don’t bitch about prices, you’re too cheap. If they bitch but don’t buy, you’re too expensive. And if they bitch AND buy – well, you’re doing JUST right. This is especially true for luxury vanity items.
As for the brainstorming email that said SOMEBODY briefly CONSIDERED Pay2Win micro-transcation…so what? They’re not in the pipeline, they’re not planned, and it’s good company policy to consider all alternatives. Calm the hell down and get back to playing EVE.
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CCP’s complete silence on the matter of pretty damning, especially when the ENTIRE CSM was telling them that the blog post would not go over well.
At this point CCP is rightfully guilty until proven innocent.
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It takes a special kind of person to be mocked and spit on and crawl back for more, whiteknighting all the way.
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guilty of WHAT???
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Guilty of planning to introduce P2W, while telling the players that they will never do that.
Hell, guilty of planning to introduce P2W in the first place.
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Why do people who don’t know what they are talking about, and don’t bother to actually find out, always feel the need to weigh in and call the people who DO know what it’s about, and are upset about it, whiners?
Read through the comments here written by actual EVE players, Crimsoneer, then read the leaked documents (which were NOT a “brainstorming email”) at the very least. Weigh in when you have something informed and constructive to contribute.
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What, I disagree with you so I’m not a “real” EVE player?
The newsletter was OBVIOUSLY a brainstorming exercise. THere was painfully apparent pro/con devil’s advocate view to the entire thing. Believe it or not, there are still 35k or so people logged onto tranquility, so most “real” EVE players dont ‘really care.
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So you’re saying that the players should *not* give feedback on potential future directions for the game? Instead, they should wait until it is too late to change, and *then* whine?
You’re weird.
It hasn’t occurred to you that perhaps the players reaction might actually play a part in determining what CCP is going to do? That if they can air their P2W plans and players just “get back to player EVE”, then CCP might figure “oh, that seemed to go over pretty well. Let’s get this shit implemented”, whereas, if there’s an outcry over it, they might be a bit more inclined to consider the “this will piss off our players” angle.
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Not to mention that it doesn’t take three god damn days to say “No, we aren’t going to do this.”
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You still can’t be bothered to find out what it is you are actually disagreeing with.
I’m done. Frickin whiteknights.
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This is pants.
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Well, real clothes can help you find a job. Or get laid. Or not die from hypothermia. Or not get arrested…
Yeah that’s totally sensible from him to compare this to the vanity items of a mmo store… uh wait, what ?
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This is desperately sad now. For a while I was amused by it. I’m kind of apathetic towards the current incarnation of CCP’s rmt store thing, I am more bothered about the captains quarters, which reveals a major change in trajectory for the game I’ve loved for 8 years.
But the biggest problem for me now is the disconnect between developer and player. I was shocked by that response, and that alone is causing me to reconsider investing time and money in the game.
I don’t think the ’cause’ has been helped by the minority of hysterical players making so much noise and threats, which has resulted in a lack of respect by CCP, as demonstrated in this blog.
What is needed right now is good constructive dialogue. We’re supposed to have a CSM to carry out this role, but that has never ever been anything more than an attempt by CCP to pro-actively head off major player discord like this by taking key community figures and jetting them to Reykjavik to woo them at CCP towers. Their silence is deafening right now, because quite deliberately, they have been given no facilities with which to communicate with the community.
It is very clever politicking by CCP, one that has bothered me for a while.
The arrogance and disdain is written large in that blog. The corporate message now seems to be ‘stay the course, the geeks will quietly go back to their game shortly’. And partially they could be right, but it is missing the point. The dev has written the blog knowing full well how these items are selling, how many account cancellations there have been, and watching the server pops carefully. With little movement in any of those stats it will fuel their belief that this is resistance to change with little substance.
Interesting times, but I love Eve, and I’m sad about where these is leading.
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CCP needs a new PR guy.
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Actually the PR Lady (CCP Pann) had to go home due to a family emergency, Zulu is a Senior Producer.
And yes, he really is that inept.
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None of the PR has done them any good. They’re desperately trying to deflect the one big question that the players keep asking: will there ever be non-vanity items for sale?
A simple “no” to that wouldn’t magically make everyone happy again, but it would cool things down significantly. The fact that they’ve ignored the issue is very telling.
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Surely at £25, they’re no longer microtransactions – just full blown transactions.
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Paying $1000 for jeans would tell people I met I was either extremely wealthy or just an idiot. Paying $70 for virtual trousers only tells other EVE players I’m an idiot.
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Self expression in EvE has never been about bling – you express yourself with F1-F8.
I find it faintly ridiculous though that after 8 years CCP have offered the ability to customise a player character that nobody will see for ludicrous amounts of money, but you still can’t alter the visual appearance of the ships that everyone else sees in any way.
The pricing seems to suggest this is a direct test of what they can get away with in the World of Darkness MMO, where high fashion and self-expression is an intrinsic part of the game.
Still, for me at least, EvE started dying with the introduction of supercaps. This just means I’m never coming back to it.
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I bet they said the same things about the guy who originally came up with the idea for luxury brand bottled water.
In fact bottled water is a better analogy for this than real-world clothing.
Pay for something you don’t need -> Pay over the odds for something you don’t need -> Pay for something which doesn’t exist -> Pay over the odds for something which doesn’t exist.
Just following capitalism through to it’s ultimate conclusion.
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So his justification is that real clothes cost that much, so you should spend the same on virtual ones.
These guys have some issues separating fantasy from reality …
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no it isn’t. not at all.
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If I cared about MMO’s, I would be heading the boycott right now.
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:16:54 -0400
To: riverini@gmail.com
Subject: ccp ceo global msg sent today
From: evewatch@hush.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=.UTF-8.
Message-Id:
sent by hilmar to ccp global list-
(strt)
We live in interesting times; in fact CCP is the kind of company that if things get repetitive we instinctively crank it up a notch. That, we certainly have done this week. First of we have Incarna, an amazing technological and artistic achievement. A vision from years ago realized to a point that no one could have imaged but a few months ago. It rolls out without a hitch, is in some cases faster than what we had before, this is the pinnacle of professional achievement. For all the noise in the channel we should all stand proud, years from now this is what people will remember.
But we have done more, not only have we redefined the production quality one can apply to virtual worlds with the beautiful Incarna but we have also defined what it really means to make virtual reality more meaningful than real life when it comes to launching our new virtual goods currency, Aurum.
Naturally, we have caught the attention of the world. Only a few weeks ago we revealed more information about DUST 514 and now we have done it again by committing to our core purpose as a company by redefining assumptions. After 40 hours we have already sold 52 monocles, generating more revenue than any of the other items in the store.
This we have done after months of research by a group of highly competent professionals, soliciting input and perspective from thought leaders and experts in and around our industry. We have communicated our intention here internally in very wide circles through the Virtual Economy Summit presentation at the GSM, our Fearless newsletter, sprint reviews, email lists and multiple other channels. This should not come as a surprise to anyone.
Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to set in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change.
We went out with a decisive strategy on pricing and we will stay the course and not flip flop around or knee jerk react to the predictable. That is not saying nothing will change, on the contrary, in fact we know that success in this space is through learning and adapting to _what is actually happening_ and new knowledge gained in addition to what we knew before and expected.
All that said, I couldnât be prouder of what we have accomplished as a company, changing the world is hard and we are doing it as so many times before! Stay the course, we have done this many times before.
(end)
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Selling fake pants, not fixing unfinished parts of your game, and pissing off your customers is changing the world, huh?
Not surprised. Disgusted, but not surprised.
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Translation:
What we touch turns into gold. Everything we create is art, and our customers are hypocrites. You say we are incompetent and our recent move is inept, but we have sold 52 incredibly overpriced pieces of digital gewgaws. People are obviously stupid enough to pay this, yet you act like you’re too smart for this, and thus you are hypocrites.
We are innovators. Never forget this. We are right, and your reactions are predictable and knee-jerk. Not because what we are doing is a complete dick move, but because we have the incredible foresight to know that despite the fact that the community is reacting negatively to this, we know eventually consumers will swallow whatever shit we give them. We know you won’t leave, and we know there are enough douchebags in our playerbase to make this worthwhile. So let’s cut the charades and stop pretending like you people have any self-control or initiative to actually call us out on our bullshit.
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I suppose the safest recourse is just not to buy any of that stuff when it get’s put it, if you don’t agree with the prices.
That said, I can see why it would annoy people – customizing avatars, no matter how little it matters to the game-play itself, is probably an appealing aspect of most role playing games for a lot of people, myself included. But I wouldn’t want to pay for that ‘privilege’. So I don’t. It is a little frustrating to be priced out of parts of the game, no matter how trivial, and kind of breaks the immersion a bit, but there is always to choice to vote with your wallet.
Personally it makes me more depressed to see various aspects of game content stripped and compartmentalized into chunks with the sole aim of spinning a bit more money. But perhaps that’s just because I’m from a time where the game was in the game (not just an ever more increasingly ironic EA sports slogan), and not a framework to bolt on the actual entertainment. Even games like the Sims series (which was already a cash-cow not afraid of a little milking) has moved beyond expansions alone by the third version, dropping what seemed like almost all it’s base-game content in order to sell it to you later in an overpriced boutique store.
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Actually, there’s an action on the forums to blacklist people buying vanity items. Pandemic Legion launched the idea (they also kicked one of their corp who wouldn’t follow), several others seems to have aligned behind that.
There are also talks of wardec-ing corps with vanity items buyers among them.
Revolution is on the way.
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I seem to be saying this many times today, as the IQ of RPS’s readership seems to have nosedived in 24 hours, but why?
Isn’t that on the level of highschool kids? He has an ipad and we don’t se we’re not going to talk to him anymore! Neh Neh!
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You need to tone down on the nerdrage, pal.
I’m just merely reporting what I read on the official forums, chill out.
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bill: It’s simple. They’re sending a message to CCP. And, you know, given EVE is a ruthless environment… worse things have happened within that game. Also, it might just work.
-edit- Not that I, were I playing EVE, would take part in this.
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http://eve.beyondreality.se/NeXCQResponse.html
Is why.
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Amazing. Eve turning in a Pay to Win game is like a 180 degree turn.
This will *****DESTROY***** the game with *****EXTREME***** prejudice. Theres not playerbase on the whole internet more adamant anti-P2W than the EVE playerbase.
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I don’t play Eve, but it sounds as though these developers have taken several steps too many down either the path of rampant capitalism or the path of delusional virtuality.
I’m not into fashion, and I don’t buy any product because of branding alone, but it seems to me that the quality of real clothes is down first and foremost to practical issues such as durability and comfort. How on earth that translates to any kind of value for virtual clothes is beyond me. Do the pixels deteriorate less quickly? Does the avatar emit satisfied coo-ing sounds once they are adorned, and stroke the weave gratefully?
A truly unbelievable statement, hopefully more of a sign of this developer’s own slide into self-justification for their greed than a signifier of how other developers might in future vindicate their own similar virtual payment schemes, but the experienced cynic in me doubts it.
Welcome to the 21st century. Everything our great writers and philosophers have warned us about, but seedier and less dramatic.
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CCP turned me into a newt!
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I got better
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I didn’t.
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5 pages and no-one has suggested this could all be a response to the utterly shitty way the rest of Europe has treat Iceland over the last 2-3 years??? :)
“You want your gambling stakes back do you – fuckers – well here’s a $25 T Shirt, FUCK YOU”.
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If you mean the economy then you started it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7660438.stm
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Who gives a fuck how much vanity items cost ? This whine is quite pointless.
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Well, it seems CCP has deleted the 200 page thread about this on their forums. That’s not a good sign.
Incidentally, this particular fiasco has apparently generated more forum rage than the T20 affair (when a dev was caught helping out one alliance in game against another). There is rioting in Jita.
It also seems that CCP has sold 52 monocles. It is not clear how many of those were to their own staff. Pretty sure I’ve seen more than 52 account cancellations in one thread, though.
But TBH I don’t care about monocles. I’ve lots of practice at ignoring bits of EVE I don’t like. What I care about is “pay to win”. It seems pretty damn clear that they want/intend to introduce that. Time to stop throwing good money after bad, I think.
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It’s still there, not to worry.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536065
It sank down a little bit, but they’re still keeping the inferno going, almost 300 pages now.
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So let me get this straight. People are getting angry because the developer of their favouritest game decided that they were going to sell exclusive trousers for quite high prices.
I actually like where this is going.
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Apparently players are rallying in Jita and firing at an indestructible monument, which is putting strain on the server and pretty much blockading one of the main trade hubs.
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Who cares if it’s expensive. If people want that shit, then let them buy it. If they don’t want it, then whatever, CCP wasted money on implementing the feature. Obviously they did research saying that people are willing to pay for this kind of nonsense with whatever monetary unit is most expendable to them. If you can use ISK to buy it, people will, so there’ll be less inflation in the end and CCP willl make money. Good enough. Stop whining.
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Again, the vanity items are not what people are angry about.
That is a sideline, a distraction, an irrelevance.
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And an incredibly good one, too!
Bravo, CCP! Your ability to shift attention to meaningless arguments is worthy of a US Senator, you slimeballs!
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I’ve cancelled my sub, and added it here. 1481 accounts at time of posting. I may play Eve again one day, but actions speak louder, and I won’t pay CCP for the direction they are taking the game.
I’m downloading Perpetuum now, essentially Eve with mechs. 44%, here goes.
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Its unconfirmed obviously but that spread sheet is now sitting at over 2000 cancellations.
Ouch.
Hope the monocles are worth it.
(Yes, I know its not the monocles)
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Seriously stop with this “I’m keeping a record of all the unsubscriptions”.
Have you got my 3 accounts on that spreadsheet? No.
Do you have the other 150k accounts that have been closed? No.
Your numbers are a small sample and because you’re not asking anything of that sample you have no real data.
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The problem I have with this is there is no economy to this. There supposed to have an expert in this. Even the 1000 dollar jeans in the real world have to equate and calculate the price. There is a price point where they dont sell enough and a price point too low and probably the same.
Their choosing of the price point is completely arbitrary, its way in excess of what people except rich idiots can pay. Of course how else are I they supposed to select the price.
Why not just have the players manufacture and sell these, with ccp taking a percentage of the sales. Theres no need to gouge out peoples wallets.
Smaller prices means more people willing to buy and probably more money overall. This should be true for the digital products.
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Actually, the main reason for the rage from the EVE playerbase isn’t so much because of the prices of the vanity items…..it is about the distinct possibility of future introduction of non-vanity, game enhancing items. Look here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536065 and here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=932 and here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1537164
Vj
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And here.
By God I will have twenty links to this page in this thread or die trying. :P
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@Jae Armstrong:
And you shouldn’t stop doing it either. Seems like CCP put this at the forefront of their response so as to shift discussion to that side rather than discuss the real reason why people are annoyed. They very much want to make it seem like the people complaining about this are just “whining about optional digital aesthetic content”, since it seemed to work with Valve for TF2 and Portal 2.
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this is the third sign of the apocalypse right?
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Dang, paying real world prices for clothing in the same MMO in which I buy spaceships completely breaks economic immersion. Once you’ve converted currencies property, what kind of spaceship is the same price as that monocle?
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The conversion works out at about 1.2 billion ISK.
For comparison:
Tech 1 tier 3 battleships are 120million ISK.
Tech 2 Battleships (the Black Ops and Marauders) are approx ~700million isk (but take months of skill training timewise)
Pirate Battleships are about 900million ISK.
So, you could buy a small fleet of normal battleships, or a top notch pirate battleship with quite a bit of ISK spare to fit them with faction or even deadspace modules (better than Tech 2) for the price of the single monocle.
Ignoring the price comparison to RL, it’s totally out of wack from an ingame sense as well.
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Maybe the right comparison is to religious relics. After all, this monocle wasn’t created in-world, it was crafted by the programmers who created the universe itself. How much would do you think you could sell Jehovah’s monocle for in our world?
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The price is probably high, so only “whales” will buy it. Is not designed so everybody would have one. I think.
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I must say that I’m finding all this rage more entertaining than fighting in spaceships has been in the last year or so. The solo frigate scene has been gutted by the all-powerful Dramiel. Small gang PvP ain’t like it used to be before it became logistics-with-everything. And I always found alliance level fleet/sov warfare more interesting to read about than to do.
And you don’t need a subscription to follow the metagame.
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Right, the fact that Eve’s general game design has been on the wane for at least four years seems like a bigger issue than cash-shops, to me.
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Agree, it only reinforces the idea that CCP keeps loosing the north and loosing sight on what is really important, it´s a shame.
Jim, will we see your take on this next monday? Or are you tired already of lamenting the wane of your love for Eve?
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I’ve got a few bits to say, but I probably won’t write anything until later next week. Busy with some other tasks atm.
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Right, the fact that Eve’s general game design has been on the wane for at least four years seems like a bigger issue than cash-shops, to me.
Well, it’s two sides of the same coin isn’t it? EVE needs refinement in core mechanics but instead they’re giving us a stupid room to walk in just so they can sell virtual clothes. Their last few expansions have been failures.
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I didn’t know companies could commit suicide. I guess I learn something new every day.
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The “people paying big money for real clothes” thing isn’t valid, because the clothing in the game doesn’t have different protections against cold and hot and provide the lovely marketable combination of self-indulgence with actual need (keeping cool in the summer, keeping hot in the winter).
…for starters :)
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Forgive me guys, but the thing I don’t understand about all the “outrage” is that you can already buy anything in the game with real money. What’s the fear of microtransactions all about?
I can go buy plex from CCP, then sell, then buy whatever the hell I want. I don’t get it.
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Fashionable clothes are always more expensive than their functional counterparts, barring body armor. I actually LIKE this because I am tired of everyone having vanity clothes up the ass. Expressing yourself is great, but if you make it really cheap, everyone has everything and you end up with a whole lot of the same shit.
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I like how some people here say that concept of paying for an in-game item is ridiculous because those objects are not real, yet paying for a game itself( which is as real as those items) is somehow ok.
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Most modern sociologists would agree that almost the entirety of our experience stems from normative development that our existence is determined by social not biological evolution.
Then this becomes a clash of subcultures, that of business and consumer for Eve.
So then it becomes an issue of whose shared norms and values we percieve to be more important.
And CCP would do well to remember that they just built the factory and it’s Eve’s players that work in it.
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For anyone who is still not getting the justification behind all the forum rage, in game protesting and cancelling of accounts:
It’s not about unwanted features that are being forced on people, or wanted features that have been removed.
It’s not about overpriced microtransaction items.
It’s not even about pay to win microtransaction items.
It’s about this (source):
And how so much of it has all turned out to be lies.
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Wait; so we’re comparing real life clothes you can wear anytime to virtual clothes you can only ‘wear’ in one game…
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As rediculous as all these prices are, it is cosmetic, so there isn’t THAT much to complain about. On the other hand, who here ACTUALLY believes that cosmetic items are the only things that will go for real money. Come now, it won’t be long until the “micro”transactions will apply to things like ships! Oh, and if they are charging prices roughly equal to real life for clothing, I don’t want to know what they’ll charge for spaceships.
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I don’t see the big deal here. The money clothing is optional. A brief look on youtube and it seems the standard clothing options and character customization are pretty decent. At most it is silly.
That said I can’t side with the $1000 jean argument (in game or RL). Though EVE needs to not back down and offer a pair of $1000 virtual jeans. Make a limit of 5 and I bet they would sell.
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That’s not the issue.
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This logic is fundamentally flawed. Source of point: its based on rational chocie philosophy. Link:http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/19/the-failure-of-rational-choice/?hp
Couldn’t it be argued that it’s more expressive to walk around naked? Why si subscribing to a a part of society that is technically originally based on restriction turned into a sudden form a regalia based artistic expression? Just like poetry, the absence of something can be just as important as what is there. With the logic presented by the blogger/entrepreneur/I-just-vomited-in-my-mouth, one could argue that having nothing is priceless, but you don’t give players that option, do you?
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Just don’t buy the fucking pants.
I agree completely with CCP on their justification of this- It’s a vanity item. For it to be of any value to anybody, they have to imbue it with a artificial sense of value, which they are doing via $$$.
They probably wont make much profit off these items, but people instantly assume it’s a ‘grab for cash’ by the devs. For me, if it’s a useless vanity item, it’s similar whether they make you grind for 10k hours, or make you pay an outrageous amount. I probably wont do it, but the item has been given undeniable WORTH.
If they give everything away for free, then you can throw the game away. If it was something that gives people an in-game advantage (P2W), I would be singing a different tune for sure, but this doesn’t look like it at all.
It’s a slippery slope, but if people keep making microtransactions, then the devs are going to keep fucking putting them in. SIMPLE. Blame capitalism, or something.
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In space, nobody can see your pants.
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Eve is already running on a slippery slope where the ability to buy and sell PLEX automatically makes it a “pay-to-win” game. Nevermind the ubiquitous multi-accounting, which saves you the trouble of finding a buddy/sucker to scout for you before moving your big supercaps/freighters down dangerous pipelines. I think the thing that irritates me the most about Incarna is that since it’s being implemented with a cash shop, I feel like I’m missing out. Like years of EVE dev time were spent implementing something that I’ll never use, because I don’t feel like paying above and beyond a sub fee. And there’s simply so much broken with their game right now, that the choice to spend resources on content that not only doesn’t interest me, but that services only those spending the additional dime… it evaporates what little hope I had left that EVE would achieve the dream of a space MMO that many of its players wanted. Instead, I’m confident it’s directionlessness, steered only by the dollar happy finance guys ever further from the player base, will land it in the graveyard. Better dig a plot there next to SWG, EVE’s got terminal cancer of the brain.
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Why are there no comments on the seventh page? Huh…
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just a quick test comment — nothing to see here.
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