Blimey says:

It comes to something when we pretty much know exactly what new PC games have to offer in terms of cheap thrills way before they come out and the only thing the we have to learn about are the indignities and frustrations. I already pretty much decided that I’m more interested in Saints Row 2 and am more likely to buy that. I’m a pretty simple minded guy who probably can’t handle the serious oscar level narrative and life simulation offered by GTA4 as I didn’t like get much out of these elements in San Andreas.

November 29th, 2008 at 9:31 am

SuperNashwan says:

Here’s a clue how carefully Take2 have considered the logic of their DRM implementation: You will need an active internet connection to activate the software and the retail disk is required to be in the computer drive in order to play. Authenticated by remote server but still needs the disk in the drive. GG. If this escapes zero day piracy I’ll eat several hats.

November 29th, 2008 at 9:34 am

subedii says:

For the store bought version you’ll need the disc in the drive.

Well, assuming they don’t release a crack within a week anyway. Or assuming you don’t want to break the law by using one on your purchase. :P

November 29th, 2008 at 9:40 am

subedii says:

It’s a new feature. With the Steam version they mail you out a disc to keep in your drive. It doesn’t contain the game as such, just an encrypted file that the executable will search for.

Every little helps in this fight.

November 29th, 2008 at 9:45 am

AbyssUK says:

sigh.. why do they bother… i’ll wait for a cracked exe.. be a whole day maybe two after release.. idiotic waste of money by rockstar.

November 29th, 2008 at 9:52 am

rei says:

If this escapes zero day piracy I’ll eat several hats.

Some people have interpreted the online activation to mean the executable doesn’t actually come on the disk, and you need to download it separately. That’s just guessing, though.

Of course, review copies and such have the executable anyway, so not sure how much that would even deter 0day piracy.

In my opinion they’re almost certainly shooting themselves in the foot doing this, and it’s hard to understand why they would do that. Maybe they feel the game’s main demographic is particularly prone to piracy, so they need to pull all stops.

November 29th, 2008 at 9:54 am

subedii says:

@ Pidesco: It largely was, but they’re trying to re-brand themselves as not quite as atrociously awful.

Removing the charge for “Full” (i.e. not outright hamstrung) access to multiplayer was a good start. They’re going to be adding in support for Live Marketplace quite soon, so you’ll be able to buy the DLC that was previously free on the PC. :P

(Oh how I wish I didn’t believe that last sentence)

November 29th, 2008 at 9:57 am

cliffski says:

I have securom installed and don’t mind it at all. HOWEVER, the thought of a game bundling in a load of mandatory crapware would put me off buying it way more than any DRM. I don’t even use steam because I hate having some always-on bullshit (like ituneshelper.exe) clogging up my machine.
Here’s the way digital distribution should work:

Dude* pays for game online.
Dude gets download link direct to an exe (password protected link).
Dude downloads and installs game
Dude has fun

Any additional steps are just fucking annoying. That’s how I sell my games, and nobody seems to have a problem with it.
Bah, moan etc.

* or dudette

November 29th, 2008 at 10:04 am

subedii says:

Personally I’m more concerned about where these measures lead for the second hand market. Many retailers outright refuse to accept PC games as it is. Add in online linking to hardware, and it becomes pretty much impossible to sell second-hand since you can’t verify that the disc you’re getting isn’t just a coaster.

The cynical part of me (that is to say, the larger part of me) gets the feeling that was always the point with such systems to begin with. Devs and publishers have been really storming against the second-hand market as of late.

November 29th, 2008 at 10:07 am

Jochen Scheisse says:

Ah, come on Tyler, there’s a very easy way around installation limits: Just crack the damn thing.

No really, if customer harassing is some devious plot to raise acceptance of pirates, then well done dolts.

November 29th, 2008 at 10:09 am

Larington says:

I must admit, I do have a certain intolerance for programs which delight in getting in the way. Theres having faith in your product and thinking its brilliant… And then theres being really fricken annoying.

November 29th, 2008 at 10:28 am

Mogs says:

No plans to buy this anytime soon.

November 29th, 2008 at 10:37 am

spd from Russia says:

yeah kill second-hand market! its costing publishers more than piracy

November 29th, 2008 at 10:45 am

Tei says:

Well.. I will not buy the game now.
That is sad, because looks like a fun game, other than behing other shady console port. But he!.. there are lots of other publishers that want my money. This guys don’t want my money enough.

November 29th, 2008 at 11:03 am

SlappyBag says:

God fucking sake, this really pisses me off. I only bought a bloody game (i’ve already pre-ordered this) and thats all I expect, not some shitty extras that I must run every damn time.

I’m cracking this tbh.

November 29th, 2008 at 11:06 am

Valentin Galea says:

Is like the’re begging to be pirated:)

November 29th, 2008 at 11:28 am

Garrett says:

@ cliffski:

Steam only needs to be running when you are actually playing a Steam game. If you don’t want it running during startup, just disable that feature (if it’s even on by default; I don’t remember). When you are not using it, you can close it at any time by right-clicking the tray icon. Steam leaves behind no “helper” processes after quitting, and it doesn’t install drivers or services to enhance its functionality (unlike SecuROM). The same goes for Games for Windows – LIVE and (probably) the Social Club; like PhysX, GfW LIVE cannot run outside of a game that uses it. It will only burden your system resources when playing a LIVE-enabled game. Microsoft may at some point launch a standalone client, but that hasn’t happened yet (and even then you could close it afterwards just like Steam). I’d much rather have to fire up msconfig and uncheck a few boxes on the startup tab than worry about what services/drivers/etc. are being secretly installed by the latest invasive DRM experiment.

Your ideal for digital distribution will only ever be viable for developers who are nobodies. For a non-indie title, it only takes one file sharer to make that purchase and then seed the file to thousands of players. Without even a serial key check, nothing stops every one of them playing a valid, fully functional copy as soon as they have the whole file. Once they do they tend to leave the client running for a while, enabling others able to get the game even faster.

Gamers know that DRM doesn’t stop copying, but this doesn’t stop companies using it anyway. They hope that DRM of any degree will kill “casual piracy” (friends loaning discs, second-hand copies, etc.) while keeping the freeloaders out for as long as possible, which can result in some sales to those who just can’t wait for a crack; unfortunately, they drastically overestimate the number of converts versus the number of customers lost by DRM. SecuROM’s most recent incarnation has caused problems for customers in every game it has afflicted (BioShock, Spore, Far Cry 2… you name it, SecuROM breaks it) while not significantly delaying crack releases, and yet companies merrily continue to include it in new games; it seems they are more concerned about delaying or converting the freeloaders and casual sharers than ensuring their customers can actually play the game they legitimately purchased (er, sorry, “licensed”). SecuROM does little to stop copying (especially since many games have “0 day” warez releases), but companies hope it will still do some good.

DRM that provably harms customers is not the right approach, but neither is the total absence of DRM. Steam has often been touted as the ideal future of DRM; Steam’s model discourages freeloaders while not (deliberately) conflicting with the user’s hardware or software, and rewards legitimate customers with an impressive feature set. This is the complete opposite of SecuROM, which suspiciously watches customers to make sure they aren’t filthy, greedy pirates and refuses access if it spots “unwanted software” (the sad irony is that the genuine pirates actually have SecuROM disabled). If every game ended up requiring Steam for copy protection purposes, most players would welcome it.

November 29th, 2008 at 11:32 am

TheSombreroKid says:

my GFW 360 & pc accounts didn’t integrate, i’ve got a pc and 360 account with excatly the same name and differant achivements and stuff and if you type it into these gamercard apps it pulls up the 360 one does anyone know how i can fix this by chance?

November 29th, 2008 at 11:50 am

MetalCircus says:

What’s acctually new in the PC version of GTAIV anyway? If it’s just a bloody replay feature then you may aswell stick with the xbox 360 version, because this sort of guff is nonsense.

November 29th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

subedii says:

Aside from the (pretty intuitive) editor, the PC version’s also getting:

- Updated and higher res graphics / textures (to be expected really)
- 32 player multiplayer
- New multiplayer modes and better multiplayer filtering and matchmaking
- Ability to create your own custom radio station (apparently this was lacking in the 360 version for some reason)
-

November 29th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Smurfy says:

Just posting so I can edit it.

November 29th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Krushr` says:

The problem is, once EA said they were doing DRM and name dropped SecuROM, everyone has been screaming ‘SecuROM == Bad!’ since, the fact is, we’ve been subjected to SecuROM for years now, just in the form of basic Disc Checks.

I don’t have too much of an issue with what Rockstar/Take 2 are doing here either, Online Activation at install? No worries, you’re not limiting the number of copies I can play.

November 29th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Pags says:

I echo your sentiment, Jonas.

Too much bloatware around nowadays. It just seems like everyone has seen the success Steam has been and though “hey we can throw in something intrusive and memory-hogging too”.

November 29th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

Junior says:

I’m actually feeling rather insulted by this, after sticking it through, patiently waiting for each PC release to play the superior moddable versions of all the recent games. They now cough out this news, it’s getting beyond being treated like a criminal now, I’m being treated like a retard who needs social networking software to play online with people.

This had better be a top notch conversion for all this aggro.

November 29th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

RC-1290'Dreadnought' says:

I was very pleased to find out that my STEAM version of Fallout 3 didn’t require any extra stuff besides STEAM. No further DRM. It might be a hassle for PC devs, but just using STEAM makes it very easy for the customer. (I see that I’ve been saying STEAM a bit often in this post…). It would not be nice if the social club thingy was some sort of antisocial DRM thing.

November 29th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

Tei says:

I have asked T2 about the problem:

—————————
Subject: I will not buy DRM infected games.
—————————
Discussion Thread
———-
Response (Kris) 29/11/2008 12.09 PM
In the future if it ever comes to a point where the online activation service becomes unavailable we will release a patch to remove the activation from the game
———-
Customer (oscar Tei(null)) 29/11/2008 11.26 AM
I have a simple comment on activation in GTA IV PC – I would appreciate if
you could pass this to a relevant person / department (preferably not
“Deleted Items”).

Do I need to activate this game online?

Rockstar: Yes, but to be clear, if you install the game on a computer that
isn’t connected to the internet, you can perform certain steps to activate
your game on another PC with an active internet connection. Once the game is
distributed, information on this method will be available on a GTA IV
support page.

Some of my favourite games were written decades ago by companies that no
longer exist. GTA IV with its unique story line is an all-time classic, but
the activation requirement will at some point in the future render the game
unusable. It is for this reason, and others, that I refuse to purchase any
game that requires activation.

Thank you for your time
—————————

I want to reply to that “Kris” guy that “I will maybe buy the game once the patch is released”.

November 29th, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Real Horrorshow says:

I don’t get some of the DRM rage. I’ve bought and installed several games with SecuROM and none of them have inconvenienced me even slightly (granted I never bought any of the install limit games, and THAT practice is definitely B.S.), and if they did I’d just crack them…a simple one-time online checks and disc checks aren’t the end of the world. If you still don’t have an internet connection in 2008, well that’s on you.

Where did this sudden hate of external programs and accounts come from, though? I log in to Steam to launch Company of Heroes, I log into Relic Online in CoH (even if I only want to play singleplayer, you have to anyway), I log into TeamSpeak to chat with friends, and every moment my computer spends awake I have Xfire running and probably an active torrent, and most of the time I don’t even bother to turn AIM and MSN off…and there’s NO noticeable difference in performance between having all that crap running and absolutely nothing but the bare minimum…and this is 32-bit Vista Home Basic I’m talking here. I know everyone’s system is different, but we’re all PC gaming geeks, the vast majority of us have solid machines that can handle a few extra MB of memory usage per side program, and the vast majority of us are very used to multi-tasking and having a bunch of junk running at all times.

These extra programs/logins, online activation, etc. in GTAIV are only really going to inconvenience casual gamers and/or people VERY inexperienced with computers. Now you can argue that it hurts the industry in the long run by continuing to scare off casual gamers from our platform, but I PERSONALLY don’t see this as that inconveniencing to me as a hardcore PC gamer, and it’s certainly not “insulting” to me or cause to boycott the game, or turn dark red and grow a forehead vein for no reason.

November 29th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

D says:

I suppose they’re happy enough knowing that, while all of your friends have the game installed, only one of them can play (one with the disk)?

I agree it’s a bit weird, the online activation. It’s like they have some assumption about the uncrackability of online activation’ing. Like it’s a big difference for pirates whether they download a nocd crack or a nointernetty crack, or both.

Edit: Editing totally works?

November 29th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Dexton says:

@Real Horrorshow
“his is 32-bit Vista Home Basic I’m talking here”
“me as a hardcore PC gamer”

Something of a contradiction there.

November 29th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Kadayi says:

@Cliffski

On my machine, Steam when idle uses a whopping 36MB of memory (Windows sidebar in comparison uses 105MB), it’s hardly the resource drain you seem to imply in your the post, and as Garrett points out you don’t have to have it running unless you’re playing a game that uses it. Mountains out of mole hills. I’d hate to think your were denying yourself the pleasure of games like L4D, Portal, TF2 and Halflife 2 over ill founded principals.

November 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

minipixel says:

Again this bs?
Lost sale right here.

November 29th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Hypocee says:

Not gonna happen, then. It was already teetering on the edge of Meh.

November 29th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Gabanski83 says:

I thought the Rockstar Social Club software was used in order to allow users to create and then upload or post user-made/recorded videos onto the Rockstar Social Club website, a bit like how you could for The Movies?

What does the application actually do, does anyone know?

November 29th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Bhazor says:

Nope but they’ll bitch about it anyway.

November 29th, 2008 at 4:00 pm

D says:

Bhazor: Thats not even slightly correct torrent numbers for Mass Effect.

November 29th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Heliocentric says:

Don’t put crackers with pirates. One brings about the end of the golden age of the medium. The other experiences greater freedom with the products they paid for. When the system has a hard drive only a mammalian offspring feeding sack* would demand the disc be in the drive. Its something made all the worse by my gaming habits, i have 30+ games installed on my main system. I dip into at least 10 every week.

*tit

November 29th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

SlappyBag says:

We need to actually start a formal protest type thing, loads of people are saying they won’t buy those games with stupid DRM for whatever reasons but we need a massively public site or something so everybody can shout and get some numbers. Get some bloody news going around about it.

I dunno, just rambling, but us just posting on these comments isn’t really going to do anything. Granted, a site wont do much either but tis a start.

November 29th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

Bhazor says:

Reply to Err

No Fallout 3 uses an old fashioned disk key/verification. Or at least the box version did.

Reply to D

They’re the exact numbers I got from isohunt (piratebay seems to be down. I approve.)

FYI
Farcry 2 140 torrents with a high of 423 seeds and 255 leeches

Spore 651 torrents with a high of 254 seeds and 389 leeches (though most of these seem to be the DS or iPhone version and include the creature creator and addon)

November 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

cHeal says:

This satifies all my DRM woes. It doesn’t seem that people will HAVE to be connected to the internet (internet connection simply for activation is a laughable expectation) and it doesn’t have install limits.

Not sure if I’ll get this though, I don’t really want to get GFWL to begin with, but in reality I just have more important things to spend my money on now. Have to tighten the belt and all that.

November 29th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

subedii says:

Bhazor, you’re just plain wrong. I’m looking at TPB right now. For Mass Effect currently there are:

Seeders:
363
Leechers:
1091

And that’s just one of the ridiculous number of torrents there are for it. I honestly do not see how you quote that as some massive victory for SecuROM.

ESPECIALLY when you then go on to disparage Fallout 3 in comparison, when it ALSO uses SecuROM.

http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=891643

http://www.destructoid.com/fallout-3-securom-shenanigans-upset-gamers-109603.phtml

Fallout 3, USES SecuROM. The featureset enabled on it is only for the disc check, but it’s most certainly there. Now I’m not about to start raging against SecuROM here, but your argument is just plain wrong.

November 29th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

Bhazor says:

Reply to Subedii

Fallout 3 may use Securom to verify the code but it doesn’t install it.

Also by “the ridiculous number of torrents there are for it” you mean 188 torrents. The highest being 365 seeds and 1099 leeches as opposed to Fallout with 190 torrents with a high of 2982 seeds and 5905 leeches. This is after Mass Effect has been out for literally yonks so I’d say Far Cry 2 is a better measure which has 45 torrents and a high of 83 seeds and 296 leeches,

November 29th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Pijama says:

@Bhazor – I never said anything about a golden age. But when I bought games when younger, they never had this kind of client BSing that we face today.

November 29th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

Bhazor says:

Yep. And the figures you just quoted are still lower than for Fallout 3

November 29th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

Mark says:

Well, they just saved me sixty bucks.

November 29th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

malkav11 says:

Really? You’re going to cite lower numbers of a cracked game circulating as proof that stiffer DRM works better? News flash. The game’s been cracked. It doesn’t matter what kind of DRM the game had once it’s been cracked, and there is no difference to the person downloading it off torrents. All lower numbers say is that fewer people currently want to download the game.

November 29th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Bhazor says:

Reply to Malkav

You realise you are talking about the overnight collapse of one of the most healthy publishers in the world? An overnight collapse where the entire staff is killed and all documentation relating to the on line activatation is destroyed in some kind of massive firey explosion. Where there is simultaneously a weird kind of poisonous bug who is only able to feed on programmers loose inside the Rockstar bomb shelter as the internet falls down preventing a 2mb patch from being released.

But time bombs ‘ey?

November 29th, 2008 at 5:16 pm

malkav11 says:

Companies shut down pretty fast sometimes. I won’t trust “oh, we’ll patch it out if we need to” until it’s actually patched out.

And it doesn’t even have to be the fire and brimstone collapse of the whole company – all they have to do is shut down the activation servers and not patch the activation out. I hope no one in the industry would do that, but I see no reason there should be that risk in the first place. It certainly doesn’t prevent piracy.

November 29th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

UncleLou says:

“What’s acctually new in the PC version of GTAIV anyway? If it’s just a bloody replay feature then you may aswell stick with the xbox 360 version, because this sort of guff is nonsense.”

It runs on a PC, for starters.

And I never quite get how people can even consider getting console version instead because of DRM on the PC. It’s like moving from Sweden to Iran because you’re worried of human rights violations in the former. :p

November 29th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

DSX says:

Screw Rockstar + MS. I can almost forgive them for wavering on a PC release, and then giving it to us practically several quarters after xbox, then they give us this tripe.

I plan on buying this title AND will pirate the crack for the no-hassle-user-friendly install. Multiplayer is not my thing anyway.

November 29th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

Y3k-Bug says:

@SuperNashwan – Here’s a clue how carefully Take2 have considered the logic of their DRM implementation: You will need an active internet connection to activate the software and the retail disk is required to be in the computer drive in order to play. Authenticated by remote server but still needs the disk in the drive. GG. If this escapes zero day piracy I’ll eat several hats.

That’s the problem with this and the fight against piracy in general, a problem that I’m very surprised the media and publishers themselves don’t acknowledge: the issue of piracy starts within their own ecosystem.

The games being pirated and placed in various torrents are coming from people who work in some aspect of the CD duplication process, and are providing the full game to pirates to crack. Its why Steam works so well against zero day piracy, the retail disk you buy isn’t the full game. The actual binaries needed aren’t placed on your system until you authenticate.

You’re absolutely right Nashwan, this will do nothing to stop piracy. Simply because publishers aren’t realizing that the second they send the master disk out to be duplicated, the fight has already been lost.

November 29th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

RichPowers says:

@cliffski: Agreed. The SecuROM doesn’t bother me as much as the Flash, “social club” and GFW requirements. Bloatware alert.

My WinXP doesn’t have Flash or Java installed; XP is for games only. Everything else is done in Linux, where I’m less worried about Adobe bloat and Java exploits.

Anyway, I never planned on purchasing GTAIV, but it’d be a shame if a game I actually wanted shipped with a laundry list of bloatware.

November 29th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

RichPowers says:

@Paul: These days, publishers encourage you to wait months to buy their games, by which point they’re significantly cheaper (and they make less money per copy sold). Patches and mods will have been released; stupid DRM will be circumvented or officially removed (Bioshock); plenty of Google hits if you’re running into technical problems; and if you wait long enough, the inevitable expansions, DLC, etc. will be bundled with a gold edition.

In short: with patience you get a superior product for less dough.

November 29th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

Real Horrorshow says:

For everyone’s information, from what I’ve read it does actually appear that Rockstar Social Club is only for the video uploading jazz, you won’t need it to run constantly to play the game.

November 29th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

Ganoa says:

i’m putting my money on reloaded, or failing that razor1911. securom i can deal with, but no way do i want those other two turds on my system just for online content. honestly, how much of a draw is the online content for a pc user? there are infinitely better multiplayer shooters out there on this platform already, why cripple your release when the vast majority of us only care about the single player features?

November 29th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

Deadpan says:

Gunrun. I still have hopes for RSC. But in the gaming industry, things of this nature are Sucky Until Proven No To Suck.

Okay, maybe it will only have a minimal footprint, but it could also be another Adobe Reader (a fat, clunky bitch that doesn’t deserve the name ‘acrobat’).

It’s on my list. It’s going to get bought regardless. And I know that, no matter what, it will suck up days of my free time. I only hope Rockstar doesn’t try to take any more orifices than GFWL tries to take up.

November 29th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

RP says:

Wait, there’s a part of Gamespy that’s not horrible?

November 29th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

Eli Just says:

I really really really wanted to buy this game. I’d never bought any of the GTA’s before, but playing them I LOVED them. When I heard GTA IV was coming to PC I was determined to buy it, because I thought it looked amazing and I wanted to support Rockstar for the great games they made. Even when I saw yesterday that SecuRom would be used, I ignored it and just decided to buy it on Steam. But GFW Live AND Rockstar Social Club AND Steam? It feels like they’re practically pleading for people to pirate it so when the next GTA comes out they can not port it to the PC. WTF ROCKSTAR?

November 29th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

Andrew says:

For a game about crime, fill in the rest of this comment yourself I can’t be arsed.

November 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

lumpi says:

Amused, the internet, is NOT!

November 29th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

frymaster says:

GFWL is only innocuous if you already have an account for some other reason – another GFWL game or an xbox or similar. Otherwise it’s a pain in the neck.

Securom – or any other copy protection system – is a big fat meh for me. What matters is what restrictions they implement with it, and game-in-the-drive _plus_ online activation seems a little bonkers to me. I mean, if it’s unlimited activations, and you must keep the disk in the drive, what are they gaining? On the copy protection side, nothing.

Account ennui is really doing my neck in these days. GFWL – after the pain of its setup phase – is bearable because its linked to my msn account. Steam is great because it holds my online game software library. But then you’ve got a million and one other things: gamespy online accounts, EA online accounts, rockstar’s new online system, etc. and I really can’t be bothered. If it was a forum I expected to use infrequently then no problem, if I forget my details and my email address has changed I just reregister. But some of these things are tied to your game, and you lose contact with them and you lose features (I like how with steam you can recover your accout if you know the cd-key from a retail purchase – contrast with EA, where if you forget your online account details you’re stuck)

November 29th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

Tom says:

We’ll just have to make the game better after it comes out, like we always do, oh the wondrous joys of pc-gaming…
So, Fire up your hex-editors ladies and gentleman, because there will be a new bitch in town to crack.

November 29th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

dozer1986 says:

hey proofreader: “GFWL is a bitter we’re getting used to swallowing now” – bitter pill yes?

@Gunrun: you must have set up an account at gravatar.com. That’s how avatars are set on this site!

November 29th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Koldunas says:

To all the pro-DRM type of guys saying things ain’t that bad:
The reason why it’s such a big fuss is not because it’s gonna clutter your system/not clutter it or some customer rights type of gibberish, but because IT DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. DRM is absolutely pointless. All of the popular PC titles in the past 5 years have been cracked (except for online only games like MMORPGs.) And usually very very soon after the release. What’s the longest? A week? two? DRMs are pointless, Spore got cracked immediately, I give GTAIV 1-day crack max (as opposed to 0-day release).
I’m gonna keep checking NFO sites once the game is out to enjoy all the crazy DRMs failing again. Even though I don’t care about the game itself.
btw, big LOL at people quoting isohunt numbers to prove a point. :) Just proves their ignorance.

November 29th, 2008 at 11:46 pm

Xercies says:

The problem with online activation is that you need the website to work. Many fiascos have happened because of this Football Manager 2009 apprantly had this worse, many people complained that they couldn’t activate their game online in Bioshock making the £40 game useless for the amount of time it took for the servers to get back. When I get a game I want to play it that day.

Also Steam is another DRM we should be going against.

November 30th, 2008 at 12:03 am

Real Horrorshow says:

Haha now Steam is bad too? Oh man haha, I’m done.

I give up on the Angry Internet Men.

November 30th, 2008 at 12:41 am

D says:

RC-1290: Also, you should have to sign up to the developers website, to get a password to unencrypt the readme, before you can read the link to the donation site.

That sounds somewhat like the equivalent to installing GTAIV.

November 30th, 2008 at 2:07 am

Real Horrorshow says:

30 megs on the hdd and in the RAM isn’t clutter. This isn’t 1997.

November 30th, 2008 at 4:14 am

Y3k-Bug says:

That to me is the most interesting thing about game/movie piracy. The people really screwing over the producers of content are the ones whose very livelihoods are sustained by the health of the industry they are helping to commit copyright infringement.

November 30th, 2008 at 5:02 am

Bhlaab says:

@Real Horrorshow

Steam is fine. However, I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate when idiot companies force their own securom bullshit on top of the Steam version for absoloutely no reason. I feel that anyone who has played STALKER Clear Sky on Steam will agree with me on this one.

November 30th, 2008 at 7:21 am

wyrmsine says:

I’ll be delighted to talk about the game when I get to play it, but to be honest, I’m going to pirate this. It’s not the SecuROM, it’s not the online activation (I bought Spore, after all, the shiny $80 pack with the fancy package and crap “documentary”)… I’m just sick of registering with another so-called service that purports to offer me the same online functionality I received, hassle and bloatware-free, eight years ago. The tipping point is probably that it’s Games for Windows – it seems ridiculous to sign up for something I expect to show a quarter-assed, dinosaur-slow committment to something laughably considered a burgeoning market. Also, it’ll try to gouge me for cash as soon as it can, and cash is in short supply these days. Yes, everyone that pirates a game encourages large publishers not to support the PC platform. The hell with their business model – my money can go to Valve, Stardock, cliffski, and whoever else offers me actual value for the software I purchase*.

Damn shame, too. I’ve bought every PC GTA game since ‘99, usually after pirating them. Looks like if I want multiplayer GTA, it going to have to be SA:MP with 99 other people. Which, y’know, people developed for free.

* that’s turning out to be a pretty long list these days, actually :)

November 30th, 2008 at 10:38 am

Klaus says:

DRM!! DRM!! *rabble* *rabble* *rabble* DRM!! DRM!! *rabble* *rabble* *rabble*

Although I like GTA more the Goo, I doubt I’ll read all the comments here. I hear steam autopatches and the like, so I don’t think I’m a fan of it. To convey this I haven’t badmouthed Steam…yet. Not until I get me facts, anyway.

November 30th, 2008 at 10:42 am

Man Raised By Puffins says:

so… nobody’s going to talk about the game ?

To be fair, the original newspost was just reporting on the additional baggage the game is saddled with and not the game itself. Personally, I’m saving chipping in with my tuppence on the game for the inevitable RPS impressions/verdict post where hopefully it won’t get buried in DRM bleating.

November 30th, 2008 at 10:54 am

Chaz says:

Get Saints Row 2 instead, it’s actually a lot more fun than GTA4, especially as you can play the whole thing co-op with a buddy.

Best thing about GTA4 is burning through the streets in a super car, looking out from the car bonnet cam view. Now it has to be said that is a real rush, and the game does look stunning as you fly through the streets. Tearing through the city in the early hours of the morning is just like being in that video of the Ferrari in Paris. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dAX-VnxIPu0

Beyond the driving and the doing the main missions however I found GTA4 to be quite boring, mostly due to the fact that all the fun side diversions of the previous games are conspicously absent. As for the constant phone calls from your friends, well that has to be the most annoying feature I’ve come across in a game recently. God knows what possesed Rock Star to put that in, as it just isn’t fun, and neither are any of the diversions you get to take your friends on.

Saints Row 2 on the other hand, whilst not being as technically as impressive as GTA4, is chock full of the sort of crazy over the top fun diversions that made the previous GTA’s such a blast to play.

November 30th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Kadayi says:

“It makes you think maybe pirate is the wrong analogy for people who make games available for free on the net. In the real world, pirates violently seize cargo ships and ransom them for money. In the digital world pirates distribute paid media for free to the masses, simplifying the experience along the way. Piracy is obviously the wrong word for this practice.”

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pirate

4. a person who uses or reproduces the work or invention of another without authorization.

Accepted parlance.

So no they are not noble software facilitators, freeing those games from the tyranny of the evil capitalist machine!!! (punches fist into the sky). What they are, are people who take away the opportunity for other people to earn a living.

There is a common misconception that within the games industry vast fortunes are to be made overnight for all and sundry, which really doesn’t add up when you do the math. Sure back in the day when a development teams members were in the single digits, large profits were there to be reaped (Ala Doom). But nowadays with development teams in triple figures, and the subsequent increase in development cost (everyone salary needs to be paid every month), that’s not so much the case for all involved, save the people at the top (just like any other company). Sure GTA IV sold fantastically well on it’s console release, however it cost an absolute fortune to make (100 million+), and lets not forget that money made does not directly translate into money back to the developer. Plenty of people get their slice of the pie before it reaches the developer (Retailers, Licensees, Publishers, the tax man), and a lot of what profit is made is going to be used to finance future development, rather than lining peoples pockets. I’m sure the Housers are sitting pretty, but I doubt any of the guys up in Rockstar North are planning on retiring any time soon despite whatever bonus GTA IVs sales earned them at the end of the day.

November 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Kadayi says:

“I agree that we should give the ‘pirates’ a new name. After all, they steal the game before it’s released, make it work without DRM and then publish it for free, and the developers see no money from it’.

Fixed, for accuracy.

November 30th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

Kadayi says:

@aoanla

Publishers publish, developers develop. Why punish developers for the deficiencies of publishers? Which ultimately is what happens at the end of the day when people pirate games. Developers future job security depends upon their games being commercially successful. If Astudio’s latest game has poor sales and part of that is due to piracy, it’s unlikely that they will have the finances to make future games, or will secure financing from publishers (who are going..did it sell well?). No source of revenue = no more company. Publishers are generally diversified to such a degree that they can take a beating here and there, but with developers that’s another story.

November 30th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

roryok says:

@Kadayi

You’re focusing on the wrong thing entirely. I’m not advocating piracy as some kind of noble, robin-hood like pursuit. I’m saying that DRM has no effect on pirates. None. In fact, they more than likely see it as a challenge.

And before we go round and round again with the argument of developers trying to make a living, that is NOT THE ARGUMENT. I agree developers are trying to sell games to make a living, and I agree that piracy is hurting that (although not nearly as much as their publishers claim) but putting strict DRM on the games has no effect other than to irritate people who buy it. Developers seem to forget that once pirates release the game on the net, the DRM will have been stripped away or negated, and it won’t have any effect on ANYONE who uses the pirate copy.

So to sum up, it won’t stop the dedicated crackers, and it won’t even be present on the pirated versions. So who gets the DRM? the paying customers. And since we’re the ones paying for the bloody game, why should we have to put up with the DRM?

If pirated copies of a game provide a better game experience than paid copies of the game, there is no incentive to pay, other than a sense of moral obligation which is fast disappearing from this planet.

November 30th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

Forceflow says:

With these restrictions, I predict Grand Theft Videogame.

November 30th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

Kadayi says:

“Well, perhaps Developers should stop using certain Publishers, then? Of course it’s unfair that developers would be punished by actions taken in response to the actions of the publisher – except, of course, that the developers presumably chose to use that publisher.”

Should they perhaps go to the Federal reserve and ask for funding? Publishers are as much about having an existing marketing infrastructure, as they are about distribution and finance. It’s not remotely sensible for a developer who might publish a game once every 2 years to do that sort of thing in house. Also by and large most companies don’t have the vast limitless pots of gold necessary to provide them with complete freedom to pick and choose with whom they do business. Even Valve were up against it financially when HL2 got delayed, why else do you think they pimped those ATi cards so much. Was it because ATi pumped $8 Million their way? Could be.

November 30th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

Garrett says:

@Klaus: Steam automatically patches all your games by default, but it can be disabled on a per-game basis just by unchecking a box in each game’s properties window. Note that some games (especially Valve’s) require you to have the latest patch in order to play online. You also can’t choose which patch to install as you can with non-Steam games: updating a Steam game always patches it to the very latest version.

November 30th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

HmmmGood says:

I’m just gonna pirate it. I don’t need the hassle.

December 1st, 2008 at 12:09 am

drewski says:

Another game I’d probably love that I won’t by buying because the devs are cocks. No doubt the pirated version will be sans GFWL and RSC so, once again, the pesky pirates will get a better experience.

Thanks, Rockstar!

December 1st, 2008 at 2:14 am

Pwnzerfaust says:

Well, at least consoles have ONE advantage over PC’s nowadays.

December 1st, 2008 at 5:14 am

Klaus says:

GTA IV PC also requires a number of software installations, including Games For Windows, Adobe Flash, Internet Explorer, SecuROM and our Rockstar Games Social Club application.

Well, I lol’d. All of that to play one game? You also need to have Windows-LIVE, securom, and RGSC running. If the pirated version requires DOWNLOAD, COPY/PASTE CRACK, PLAY, I’ll be lol’ing some more.

Aside from the fact that warez are a great place to pick up a Trojan or key logger, using a cracked copy of GTA IV PC will result in varying changes to the game experience. These can range from comical to game-progress-halting changes.

lol, I’ve had trojans from time to time, and every time what is involved is me ignoring commonsense. i.e. “I shouldn’t click on that, but I waaaannnnt (software) sooooo baaaaaddd! *click* *shutdown* Shit…” hasn’t happened in years though. Experience!

I also have never had a pirated game crap out on me, primarily because I read for such issues beforehand. I hear Mass Effect crapped out on many people who bought the game, and the pirates. So….

December 1st, 2008 at 8:51 am

cope says:

PC version was cracked and posted on bittorrent today, 1 day before NA release. Anyone surprised?

December 1st, 2008 at 11:15 am

Devan says:

I’m not a fan of GTA but was considering buying this until now. All well, it makes the choice easier.

December 1st, 2008 at 6:54 pm

PC-Purist says:

I love the GTA series, I have even considered buying a console to play 4. However I just cant let go of the M+K control I get with the PC. I bought GTA 4 last night knowing that my system barely met the min sys reqs. However I believe in supporting the games I like.

After installing it, I wanted to clear up what the GTA 4 PC ver really does on the system.

1. It installs Windows live without checking for a previous version which Fallout 3 had already installed. The first time you load the game it checks for updates to Windows live and requires you to download that before playing. The windows live component also loads a program to act as a redistribution node for the update to other on the net

2. Rockstar Social Club is installed and is set to startup when the system boots. If you disable it in MSconfig, the next time you start GTA4 is puts itself back in. It prompts you for a login with no way to permanently ignore it each time the games starts or if it loads at startup then it prompts you when you login, even if you don’t plan on playing the game.

I don’t really mind DRM but only because I have not had any problems with my system. But I know others have had nightmares dealing with it. I personally wouldn’t mind the whole windows live thing because it is invisible in fallout 3 unless I go and specifically pull it up.

However the GTA 4 PC version has turned my PC into a console with programs loading at startup and no options to choose “JUST PLAY GAME.” I like the fact that I can start a game and choose continue or load and I am back in the game.

Hopefully someone will release a patch/crack that will let me do just that “START…LOAD….ENJOY”

December 3rd, 2008 at 7:04 pm

V8matey says:

Ive had fallout 3 and GTA4 installed on my PC for a while now, and since GFW and rockstar clubs hog of a programs, wont let me connect ingame even tho I have done before in the past and played it for a day or so, but after a a few days of play both programs dont connect ingame anymore, and this really makes the game worthless. No more saves and the added crap that u can get, that really is just a little bonus and nothing much of a wow factor.
Since being a paying customer makes me wonder If I got my moneys worth, When a game forces you to change this and that in windows just to maybe hope to see if it works.
And maybe wait until some one gets there ass in gear to release a patch that fixes most unimportant problems in a game anyways, which again allows you to wait further.
Until you
A: Fix it your self, by looking at tons of forums etc
B: download some sort of 3rd party hack/fix thing.
C: Wait longer for a patch………
D: Put it on a shelve and wait even longer for a Patch or etc and revert back to the games that do play and does not require you to sign in etc.
But Ive got some Questions tho, What the hell is GFW anyways? what does it really support you with? Apart being like a big brother type of deal.
ALL YOUR SAVES ARE BELONG TO US!!!
What does Steam, GFW and all the other band wagon jumpers all have in common? What happens if they go bankrupt? There mainframe has a fire and u lose all your accounts anyways?
If you want to stop pirates an etc, then what stops me from doing a snach and grab at a video game store and giving away alot of free cd keys and its games?
Since GFW uses hotmail account what stops a hacker etc from getting every ones personal detail? and changing there log on pws etc? OR changing who evers stats to there liking?
Why does software protection stuff feel likes its an afterthought?
Why is there not a GFW or steam like program that is just one big massive database you can download patches for any game. So any game can connect to it an download instead of random sites or Do it yourself find a patch etc. Whats the deal with Rockstar social club? I dont want to socialise with people if I am in a game, thats what myspace facebook, steam friends list etc is for.. I just want to drive around and kill people in game.
Why are games turning more to online reg when there is solid proof that this is still unstable.
If GFW crashes my game and I crack it with a hack does that make me a pirate that i still get to play my legit copy of my game?
Any why does GFW and other band wagon jumpers force you to have to purchases a new game just to play on a Lan?
Games used to be made by gamers. But now games are made by sponsors… which is said because at the end of the day they couldnt care less about fixing any problems since they still got the fair share of $$$ worth in there from their selected selling game.

December 26th, 2008 at 5:33 am