Occasionally we think too much at RPS. Sadly, not about anything useful. For example, we picked up the following TF2 thing from Halolz. Click through for a bigger version, or go over here for a huge one.
It’s the Dungeons and Dragons alignment table applied to the nine character classes. Which is cute and funny and all that. And then we started arguing with it. So, in an attempt to see if I can depose the reigning geekiest RPS post of all time, here’s some in depth and serious analysis about What D&D alignment Would The TF2 classes be.
Kill me.
Starting thoughts – while they’re backing up their thing with quotes, pretty much all the characters will say something which could justify them into any of the alignments. They’re a ranty bunch, bless ‘em. Second obvious problem is that while there’s nine alignments and nine characters, that doesn’t mean that they’ll match up neatly. In fact, most would probably push into Chaotic Evil, because they spend all their lives in an enclosed arena blowing stuff up and laughing and laughing and laughing, until they’re liquidised.
They aren’t nice people.
But, for the sakes of the game, we have to assume a Best Fit situation. And with that in mind…
LAWFUL GOOD: They say Medic. We say… well, this one’s right. Despite his teutonic tones and general demeanour of a comedy nazi scientist – the best kind! – he heals people.
NEUTRAL GOOD: They say Heavy. This upsets Alec, who as a born-and-bred Heavy, believes he’s Chaotic, and probably Chaotic Evil. He’s the guy who’s openly laughing as he unleashes the eternal beauty of a minigun. This isn’t traditionally good behaviour, y’know. That said, in this little world, my suspicion leans towards Chaotic Good – because while he’s all about the megadeath and the cackling, he’s also the guy you’d like to go drinking with. He’ll get his round in, unlike the Sniper. Hell, the Spy will be sneaking sips whenever you go to the bogs. And Minsc from Baldur’s Gate was Chaotic Good, I believe, who certainly is a parallel to our enormous Russian.
CHAOTIC GOOD: They say Scout. The entire RPS collective goes No. The Scout is a smarly little bastard who should be set on fire – which is lucky, as that happens fairly regularly. Do two at once, and you even get an achievement.
LAWFUL NEUTRAL: They say Engineer, and it’s another one which is easy to concur with. Lawful neutral is all about the infrastructure for the sake of infrastructure – rules for their own sake. He’s existing in a world of constant bloodshed and explosions, and he’s the guy who’s still trying to build some kind of civilization. Turrets and teleporters are only a start. You know if you left him alone long enough, he’d have constructed some of functional settlement with hot running water and a nice place to store his Country records.
NEUTRAL: Sniper, apparently. I can see what they’re going for – the distance and all. But the clinical cruelty of the Sniper, slowly picking off people who never stood a chance is about as Evil as you can get. The hired assassin character – be a professional – is deeply Lawful Evil. Yeah, he’s a killer for money – but he’ll keep his word. But his word rarely involves looking after your cat. His word involves the propulsion of brains out of the back of heads via the insertion of hypervelocity rounds.
CHAOTIC NEUTRAL: Demoman. And, yeah, this makes sense too. He’s drunk. And drunkeness is a state of awesome unpredictability. Are you going to help dogs home? Are you going to start fights? Are you going to pass out? Who can tell. That said, I’m tempted to push him towards True Neutral, if only as I want the Scout over here. True Neutral is about maintaining balance. And – as everyone knows – maintaining balance is essential when your blood is proof.
LAWFUL EVIL: They say Soldier. I can see it. He’s got the dual attributes of military discipline (Lawful) and homicidal bloodthirst (Evil). But, in practice, he’s not as openly Evil as the Sniper and his actual militaristic flourishes are more parodies of discipline. Remeber his video, giving that lecture to his line up. He’s openly apeshit. Were it a free choice, I’d lob him over at Chaotic Evil. But…
NEUTRAL EVIL: …that’s where the Spy has to be, not here. While I agree he’s Evil (And anyone who’s ever felt that blade in his back will agree), his professional veneer isn’t the core of the character. The central facet is lying. He’s the guy who decided to go against the wisdom of bringing knives to a gunfight, realising that it’s only a gunfight if they’re pointing their weapons at you. In his head you can imagine epic fantasies of all the bodies in the world laid out, with a neat incision in the small of their spine. As Tom Francis of Gamer once put it, there’s one line he says – something akin to “I was never on your side anyway”. The chilling thing is… well, who’s that addressed to. The Spy is our Satan. He’s Chaotic Evil.
CHAOTIC EVIL: Which means the Pyro has to move. And a tricky one to place. Sure, she causes Chaos, but her personality is… well, hidden. That’s the point. Maybe Neutral would make sense? Chaotic Neutral? There’s already strong candidates for both. She certainly seems overjoyed a lot, and her weapon has that cruelty to it. That may edge her to one of the empty slots – Neutral Evil. Not a perfect fit, but…
Which – after some swift finger counting and consultation with the DM’s handbook, the monster manual and the Book of Thasfglsclgx (Third edition)…
Lawful Good: Medic.
Neutral Good: Scout
Chaotic Good: Heavy
Lawful Neutral: Engineer
Neutral: Demoman
Neutral Chaotic: Soldier
Lawful Evil: Sniper
Neutral Evil: Pyro
Chaotic Evil: Spy
The Soldier and the Scout are the iffiest ones. Ultimately though, the Soldier is madder than the Scout, and since the Evils are taken, he gets it. While the Scout’s a dipshit, compared to true monsters like the Sniper and the Spy, he’s a bloody saint. And in function, he tends to be about achieving the objective – actually capping that point, grabbing the flag. That’s close enough to “For the Greater Good” for me to feel okay with him in Neutral Good.
That’s my list. Please feel free to add your own while I go off to see if I can still look at myself in the mirror.
Related Stories:
LG Medic
NG Pyro
CG Heavy
LN Soldier
N Engineer
CN Scout
LE Sniper
NE Demo
CE Spy
The Medic fits Lawful Good as he selflessly spends his time aiding and assisting others, often with no gain for himself.
The Pyro can theoretically fit anywhere, as one cannot really tell her motivations from her weapon alone, which is basically all you have to go on. So I stuck her at Neutral Good as that was what was left over.
The Heavy has to be Chaotic Good, as the similarities to Minsc (already pointed out) are too great.
Lawful Neutral characters tend to be ones who value order over everything else. The Soldier fits best simply because of his name – one who follows orders, right or wrong, because he has to.
The Engineer cares only for his buildings, nothing else. Morality doesn’t even figure into his worldview. Hence he is clearly Neutral.
The Scout is the most psychotic of them all. He fits Chaotic Neutral pretty well. Also, “Neutral Chaotic” Kieron? Reading that makes the geek in me die a little.
Lawful Evil is the Sniper as stated above.
The Demo ends up with Neutral Evil mostly because there’s no where else for him to go.
Yes, the Spy is clearly Chaotic Evil. Utterly selfish and completely disregarding of everyone else.
But there’s only 5 alignments in 4th edition. (Which I thought was a stupid change. One less thing to argue about… now we just have to chew over whether temporary hit points stack for
pyrosinfernal pact warlocks.)The hardest part about placing the different classes into an alignment is that you have to take into account so many things. You’ve got to consider Valve’s purpose for each class. Then there’s the personality of each class (really only revealed through the Meet the …” videos). Then of course, we’re all biased by which classes we love to play and which classes we love to hate. Finally, you have to consider how you play the class, how other good players play the class, and how game-ruining self-mutilating mouthbreathing f*cktards play the class.
That being said, I like Noc’s list. Now that the geeky D&D alignment charts for TF2 are out, the next step is to get some good TF2 Motivational posters. I’m thinking something like a picture of the Intel room in 2Fort absolutely covered in Sentries, with the title “Camping – It’s a legitimate strategy!”
I totally dig the various proposed versions, here. Kudos to Kieron and the gang (especially McCool!) for the idea.
Just as a thought exercise, I tried instead mapping “(direct) damage dealing” to the “good-evil” axis, and “reliability/stability” to the “lawful-chaotic” axis. Not exactly representative of the original alignment axes, but a good approximation, given that all of the classes are amoral murder machines.
Lawful Good – Medic (almost definitively non-damage dealing, and must be so reliable that you put your life in his hands)
Neutral Good – Engineer (he doesn’t generally deal direct damage, and you can certainly rely on his equipment – except occasionally, when they’re having fun with teleporters)
Chaotic Good – Scout (not as much of a damage dealer as the rest, but very, very unpredictable)
Lawful Neutral – Heavy (dishes out the damage, but you can see him coming a mile away)
True Neutral – Pyro (a quick, mobile damage hose, versatile enough for defense or offense – the pyro is such a cypher, it could fit in anywhere)
Chaotic Neutral – Soldier (Those rockets can put a lot of hurting, and you never know when he’s going to come rocket jumping into your face)
Lawful Evil – Sniper (Cold, efficient, one-shot head-exploding power – it’s hard to top a good sniper for reliable killing force)
Neutral Evil – Demoman (Step wrong and you’re dead in an instant, and you’re never quite sure where he’s hidden a few stickies)
Chaotic Evil – Spy (Untrustworthy by their very nature, and able to kill anyone with one well-placed knife)
Again, it’s not a perfect fit or anything, but reasonably measured for all. And a satisfying way of breaking down the classes, I feel.
Bah.
Boring me says: Just why do this?
D&D nerd me says:
Awesome… except 4e is released move on people! =p
Your alignment can now be:
Good: ‘reedom and kindness
Lawful Good: Civilisation and order
Evil: Tyranny and hatred
Chaotic Evil: Entropy and destruction
Unaligned: Taking no stand…
This post is so awesomely geeky that I have to throw in my two pence. I’m going to make my alignment determinations according to 2nd Edition AD&D, because I’ve played far too much Baldur’s Gate, and those are my favourite definitions.
Lawful Good: Heavy – The Heavy is the obvious Paladin analogue here, since he’s the non-too-smart, but oddly charismatic tank, who wants to believe he’s fighting for the right side. He also has a strong sense of protectiveness and personal responsibility (“WHO TOUCHED MY GUN?”) but lacks the intelligence and articulacy of other classes.
Neutral Good: Engineer – The Engineer is only concerned with building infrastructure for the greater good of his team. When push comes to shove, he’ll defend himself against aggressors and fight to the death, but otherwise his existence is selfless in the service of his community. Classic Neutral Good.
Chaotic Good: Demoman – Here I’m reaching a little, but the Demoman is arguably the classical Ranger analogue. He prefers indirect combat, and shies away from upfront battle. By laying traps or engaging enemies from long distance, it’s difficult to predict where his influence will be felt, as he’s there to support his comrades from a distance, rather to stand shoulder to shoulder with them.
Lawful Neutral: Spy – I don’t think that the Spy is intrinsically evil. In fact, he’s an individual who’s willing to take immense personal risk by going behind enemy lines to further the interests of his team. This means he must occasionally act in ways contrary to his ultimate objectives to preserve his cover, but in the end, it *is* just and act. The Spy is dedicated to the ideals and success of his team, even if he must use unorthodox means to achieve them.
True Neutral: Medic – The Medic is the Druid or Cleric analogue. He’s there to heal and preserve life, not make judgments as to how or why people are being injured. When the natural balance of the teams is threatened, sometimes the Medic may take an active role, making members of the assault team invulnerable, or taking the battle to the other team himself, but otherwise, the Medic lives to preserve the balance of the two sides.
Chaotic Neutral: Pyro – The Pyro is (in AD&D analogy) a bonkers Fire Sorceress. She doesn’t care who gets in her way – friend or foe – all that concerns her is the fire. She’s unpredictable, but not truly evil. Fire is her only friend, it doesn’t matter who she lets it consume.
Lawful Evil: Soldier – Let’s be frank. This guy’s in it for the killing. Of course, he belongs to a very organised and regimented profession, but he just wants to get out there and blow shit up. He wants to kill, but doesn’t kill indiscriminately. He only does it within the rules of engagement, and that makes him Lawful Evil.
Neutral Evil: Sniper – “I’m not a crazed gunman, Dad, I’m an assassin!” The Sniper makes his living from killing people. It doesn’t matter who, it doesn’t matter where, as long as that bullet goes through the right skull, the Sniper gets his money and is happy. The Sniper murders consistently and purely for his own advancement. He doesn’t really care about “the team”. He’s in it for himself.
Chaotic Evil: Scout – The Scout plays it fast and loose. He likes to kill (“and brother, I hurt people.”) just for the thrill of the kill and gets stuck in as fast as possible, using his speed and mobility to avoid retribution. The Scout is also a total dick (“I blew up your stupid crap, moron!”) and has such an insufferably high opinion of himself (“Whooooo!”) that he’s hardly going to care if you disagree. He gets my vote for the Chaotic Evil Thief/Rogue archetype.
(WARNING: AD&D 1st Edition Ahead!)
Alignment??? No, ur doon it wrong.
Hit Die:
Scout, Spy: d4
Pyro, Sniper: d6
Engineer, Medic: d8
Soldier, Demoman: d10
Heavy: d12
You probably should use the ‘house rule’ that gives each class their full hit die-hit points at first level. TF2 characters are about 3rd level. Don’t forget your CON bonuses per level!
Minimum Ability Scores:
Scout: DEX 14
Engineer: INT 10
Medic: WIS 12
Demoman: CON 13, DEX 8
Heavy: STR 14
Soldier: STR 10, CON 10
Spy: CHA 12
Sniper: DEX 10
Pyro: CON 12
There’s potentially more I could write, but I think you get the point.
Noc’s pretty much spot on. I’d like to make the Medic Lawful Good (given that he’s all about forsaking individual glory for the greater good) but the Engi, Sniper and Soldier all self-evidently have to be Lawful, so on balance I’d keep it as-is.
And now my plan comes to fruition. As you can see, it is possible to fit all the classes around almost anywhere and argue for it. The one thing that cept me sane when coming up with this, fighting my natural dislike of D&D, was if people argued over it enough it would server as an awesome critique of the system as a hole.
It really is abit rubbish.
Just change the name of the site to Rock, Paper, TF2 and be done with it.
“Erlam:
Paladins pre-4th Edition were Lawful Good, and they killed people by the dozens. Sometimes they’re racist/specist, in that they don’t consider the slaughtered people “people.” And they were the bastions of “Law and Goodness.” Then again, all D&D PCs were mass murderers like that. It’s fun that way.”
I always thought they were/should have been Chaotic Good. or Lawful Evil. Whichever, heh.
Out of curiousity, why does everyone think the Scout is ‘evil’ for being a dick? I’m pretty sure evil requires more, and it isn’t like the game doesn’t have enough violence to find something else to use ;)
@Kieron, I assumed that we were talking about the D&D version of Satan.
Even though I like to put Medic (in general) in Neutral Good slot, I think (TF2) Medic probably should be in True Neutral Slot since he’s giving all that “love” to everyone, no matter how evil, good, chaotic or lawful his friends are.
The only link between Chaotic and deceit is stylistic. Lawful = honest (i.e. devils cannot lie) is only an interpretation and aspect of it. Lawfulness is about as much about consistency, and Chaotic about inconsistency, as it is about truth or lack of it.
Ergo the Spy isn’t restrained to Chaos based on his deceit. He could be argued as far as Lawful. A chaotic, undisciplined mind could never achieve the level of understanding necessary to perfectly mimic the actions of enemy players, and never maintain the patience to wait for the right moment to strike.
Spot on, but the scout is chaotic neutral. He’s a guido from Brooklyn, for God’s sake! He’s gonna do whatever he feels like, you got a problem with that, punk?
Question, why are they ordered that way instead of LG,LN,LE, NG,TN,NE, CG,CN,CE?
I’ll make the argument that although I agree the Scout is Neutral Good, the players who are playing him, are Chaotic Evil. That’s a definite penalty towards your Charisma guys. Sorry.
@Erlam: “Out of curiousity, why does everyone think the Scout is ‘evil’ for being a dick?”
It’s not just because he’s a dick. That’s the icing on the cake. I went for Chaotic Evil based mainly on the Meet The Scout video. Let’s look at the evidence; he’s a raving egomaniac and enjoys violence for its own sake – that is, rather than killing him by surprise, which he easily could have done, he chooses to actively torment the Heavy before killing him. All for the sake of a sandwich. The sheer pettiness is bad enough, but choosing to actively prolong the Heavy’s suffering just because he *can*… that’s evil.
The fact that he even engages in hand-to-hand combat in the first place is a good sign of chaotic behaviour, since he’s much more vulnerable at close quarters compared to when he can use his speed and mobility to (literally) stay out of arms reach. Overconfidence is a common trait in chaotic evil characters, and is occasionally their undoing. (though not in the case of the video, obviously)
@Pushlittlekart: Note that the Scout is from Boston, not Brooklyn.
Thanks for the correction about the scout being from Boston.
mujadaddy, you forgot COM. Can a pyro have a comeliness value, given the gas mask?
COMe, now, pushlittlekart… Comeliness isn’t exactly a primary trait in military sausage-fests, speculation of a bottom-heavy pyro notwithstanding… :P
Just a couple of things….
I think there is certainly a case for the Spy as Chaotic Neutral as he literally switches sides every 10 seconds.
…and the Medic is so totally an evil character – I’d go as far as chaotic evil. He openly experiments on the members of his team in field conditions, and takes a bonesaw to the enemy given the chance! Take another look at the Medic in the TF2 group shot and then try to tell me thats the face of a neutral character =P
Looking at the same chart and their pictures, the heavy is Lawful good, the medic is chaotic good, the scout is lawful neutral, the engineer is lawful evil, the sniper is neutral evil, the demoman is neutral good, the soldier is way too ugly, the spy is neutral evil too, and the pyro is the pyro, I can’t see what he looks like under that mask.