By Kieron Gillen on June 24th, 2008 at 1:30 am.
Occasionally we think too much at RPS. Sadly, not about anything useful. For example, we picked up the following TF2 thing from Halolz. Click through for a bigger version, or go over here for a huge one.
It’s the Dungeons and Dragons alignment table applied to the nine character classes. Which is cute and funny and all that. And then we started arguing with it. So, in an attempt to see if I can depose the reigning geekiest RPS post of all time, here’s some in depth and serious analysis about What D&D alignment Would The TF2 classes be.
Kill me.
Starting thoughts – while they’re backing up their thing with quotes, pretty much all the characters will say something which could justify them into any of the alignments. They’re a ranty bunch, bless ‘em. Second obvious problem is that while there’s nine alignments and nine characters, that doesn’t mean that they’ll match up neatly. In fact, most would probably push into Chaotic Evil, because they spend all their lives in an enclosed arena blowing stuff up and laughing and laughing and laughing, until they’re liquidised.
They aren’t nice people.
But, for the sakes of the game, we have to assume a Best Fit situation. And with that in mind…
LAWFUL GOOD: They say Medic. We say… well, this one’s right. Despite his teutonic tones and general demeanour of a comedy nazi scientist – the best kind! – he heals people.
NEUTRAL GOOD: They say Heavy. This upsets Alec, who as a born-and-bred Heavy, believes he’s Chaotic, and probably Chaotic Evil. He’s the guy who’s openly laughing as he unleashes the eternal beauty of a minigun. This isn’t traditionally good behaviour, y’know. That said, in this little world, my suspicion leans towards Chaotic Good – because while he’s all about the megadeath and the cackling, he’s also the guy you’d like to go drinking with. He’ll get his round in, unlike the Sniper. Hell, the Spy will be sneaking sips whenever you go to the bogs. And Minsc from Baldur’s Gate was Chaotic Good, I believe, who certainly is a parallel to our enormous Russian.
CHAOTIC GOOD: They say Scout. The entire RPS collective goes No. The Scout is a smarly little bastard who should be set on fire – which is lucky, as that happens fairly regularly. Do two at once, and you even get an achievement.
LAWFUL NEUTRAL: They say Engineer, and it’s another one which is easy to concur with. Lawful neutral is all about the infrastructure for the sake of infrastructure – rules for their own sake. He’s existing in a world of constant bloodshed and explosions, and he’s the guy who’s still trying to build some kind of civilization. Turrets and teleporters are only a start. You know if you left him alone long enough, he’d have constructed some of functional settlement with hot running water and a nice place to store his Country records.
NEUTRAL: Sniper, apparently. I can see what they’re going for – the distance and all. But the clinical cruelty of the Sniper, slowly picking off people who never stood a chance is about as Evil as you can get. The hired assassin character – be a professional – is deeply Lawful Evil. Yeah, he’s a killer for money – but he’ll keep his word. But his word rarely involves looking after your cat. His word involves the propulsion of brains out of the back of heads via the insertion of hypervelocity rounds.
CHAOTIC NEUTRAL: Demoman. And, yeah, this makes sense too. He’s drunk. And drunkeness is a state of awesome unpredictability. Are you going to help dogs home? Are you going to start fights? Are you going to pass out? Who can tell. That said, I’m tempted to push him towards True Neutral, if only as I want the Scout over here. True Neutral is about maintaining balance. And – as everyone knows – maintaining balance is essential when your blood is proof.
LAWFUL EVIL: They say Soldier. I can see it. He’s got the dual attributes of military discipline (Lawful) and homicidal bloodthirst (Evil). But, in practice, he’s not as openly Evil as the Sniper and his actual militaristic flourishes are more parodies of discipline. Remeber his video, giving that lecture to his line up. He’s openly apeshit. Were it a free choice, I’d lob him over at Chaotic Evil. But…
NEUTRAL EVIL: …that’s where the Spy has to be, not here. While I agree he’s Evil (And anyone who’s ever felt that blade in his back will agree), his professional veneer isn’t the core of the character. The central facet is lying. He’s the guy who decided to go against the wisdom of bringing knives to a gunfight, realising that it’s only a gunfight if they’re pointing their weapons at you. In his head you can imagine epic fantasies of all the bodies in the world laid out, with a neat incision in the small of their spine. As Tom Francis of Gamer once put it, there’s one line he says – something akin to “I was never on your side anyway”. The chilling thing is… well, who’s that addressed to. The Spy is our Satan. He’s Chaotic Evil.
CHAOTIC EVIL: Which means the Pyro has to move. And a tricky one to place. Sure, she causes Chaos, but her personality is… well, hidden. That’s the point. Maybe Neutral would make sense? Chaotic Neutral? There’s already strong candidates for both. She certainly seems overjoyed a lot, and her weapon has that cruelty to it. That may edge her to one of the empty slots – Neutral Evil. Not a perfect fit, but…
Which – after some swift finger counting and consultation with the DM’s handbook, the monster manual and the Book of Thasfglsclgx (Third edition)…
Lawful Good: Medic.
Neutral Good: Scout
Chaotic Good: Heavy
Lawful Neutral: Engineer
Neutral: Demoman
Neutral Chaotic: Soldier
Lawful Evil: Sniper
Neutral Evil: Pyro
Chaotic Evil: Spy
The Soldier and the Scout are the iffiest ones. Ultimately though, the Soldier is madder than the Scout, and since the Evils are taken, he gets it. While the Scout’s a dipshit, compared to true monsters like the Sniper and the Spy, he’s a bloody saint. And in function, he tends to be about achieving the objective – actually capping that point, grabbing the flag. That’s close enough to “For the Greater Good” for me to feel okay with him in Neutral Good.
That’s my list. Please feel free to add your own while I go off to see if I can still look at myself in the mirror.
Write it up as a 300 word story pitch, and I’ll buy this post.
We will need a love interest, though.
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The scout CANNOT be good… at best chaotic evil.
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More than the Spy though?
KG
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Is this what they call Neepery?
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I think it’s pretty on – minus the heavy, as was mentioned. Heavy is chaotic, no doubt. The one major problem I’d have is making any of them ‘good.’ They all kill people, why is doing it a different way any better?
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I’m not going to argue with Neutral Evil so long as I still get to set people on fire. And in the game (I wonder if I’ll ever tire of that joke?).
Also, yes. Possibly the geekiest post on here. I thought the original image was geeky enough, but you took it to a whole new level (insert RPG level-up joke here).
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Dubious about the Spy as Chaotic. His trade is highly disciplined, after all, and he’s a fairly detached, unemotional type (“You got blood on my suit” in a perfect deadpan). I say put the Soldier in Chaotic Evil, given his contempt for all those he kills (“Maggot!”), and put the Pyro in Chaotic Neutral. All the classes enjoy what they do, but I get the impression that our lonely Pyro actually has a lot of fun without sounding malicious. Listen to the battle cries- it’s all enthusiasm. Hang on a tick, now I have to my own list. We just can’t leave the Scout in the Good column- it’s not right.
Lawful Good: Engineer
Neutral Good: Medic
Chaotic Good: Heavy
Lawful Neutral: Scout
Neutral: Pyro
Neutral Chaotic: Demoman
Lawful Evil: Sniper
Neutral Evil: Spy
Chaotic Evil: Soldier
There. Clearly definitive.
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Now try and do it with 4th Edition rules. The new alignment table makes more sense, but it’s just not as fun :(
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You obviously haven’t played spy long enough to hear his maniacal laughter Arathain. Is positively chillin’
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Wait.. they changed the alignment tables in 4th? Boooooo!
(edit)
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Actually,this sort of reminds me of an item in IWD2 –
How To Be An Adventurer
This ludicrously huge and heavy book – more a compilation of volumes in a single binding than anything else – claims to be an extensive manual on the “fine art of adventuring”. Its many chapters include:
* Henchmen: Loyal Companions or Seedy Pack-Mules?
* Making Your Kit Work for You
* 101 Uses for a 10′ Pole
* Catapults: Yes, That’s as Far as it Shoots
* Getting the Most Out of Your Party’s Thief
* Today’s Tinderbox – It’s Not Just For Lighting Torches Anymore
* Dungeons to Tackle:
o Stinky Pieter’s Halls o’ Poorly Guarded Gold
o The Caves of Soundly Sleeping Monsters
o Archmage “Loose-Bowels” Wozley the Milksop’s Enchanted Item Warehouse
o The Wooden Citadel of Darmos the Old and Crippled
o Uncle Fralin’s Tool Shed
o … and more!
* Dungeons To Avoid Like the Crotch-Rot:
o The Iron Fortress of Blodaz, Devourer of Souls
o Dominara the Erinyes’ Nine-Layered Brothel of Violent Emasculation (No Slaking… or Slating… Allowed)
o The Crimson Hell-Pit of One Billion Miserable Deaths
o Uncle Fralin’s Bedroom
o … and more!
* Your Lantern and You
* Twelve Uses for Twelve Iron Spikes
* 99 Uses for That Little Hammer That Comes With Twelve Iron Spikes
* Face It, You’re Actually ‘Neutral Evil’
* The King’s Lovely Daughter: Look But Don’t Touch
* Don’t Put Your Hand in That Dark Hole
Mainly the “face it you’re actually neutral evil” which I thought was a nice nod to how most players approach CRPGs.
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Hmm. I propose a complete reshuffling. [Interestingly, I seem to agree with Arathain on a few points, despite still being typing when he posted.]
Swap the Medic to Neutral Good. He’s all for healing, yeah . . . but he’s also a bit crazy. Mad Scientist and all.
The Engineer fills his spot, at Lawful Good. He’s the only one, out of the whole team, who saves lives. The Medic doesn’t, really . . . he just keeps them fighting longer. But the Engineer puts a turret where a man would be, provides a Dispenser to give people a haven to fall back to . . . and he’s the ultimate opposite of the Spy.
I like the Heavy where he’s at. He’s a nice bloke, but I can see him being a bit of a loose cannon.
The Soldier goes in Lawful Neutral. Maybe he’s a parody of order, really . . . but I don’t think he’s in on the joke. He’s not a warrior, not a killer . . . he’s a Soldier, and he’s doing a job.
I think the Pyro’s a strong case for True Neutral. Of all the people involved, she’s a force of nature more than anything else – less a sinister, masked killer and more, well, fire burns everyone. It’s a fact of life. Unless you turn Friendly Fire off.
The Demoman slides back to Chaotic Neutral. He’s just about blowing shit up – it’s the same sort of force-of-nature thing as the Pyro, but with a high BAL and a grin.
The Sniper stays at Lawful Evil.
The Scout drops down to Neutral Evil because, at his core, he’s a vicious little prick.
And the Spy stays where his is for the reasons discussed above.
In Summary:
LG: Engineer
NG: Medic
CG: Heavy
LN: Soldier
TN: Pyro
CN: Demonman
LE: Sniper
NE: Scout
CE: Spy
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Erlam:
Paladins pre-4th Edition were Lawful Good, and they killed people by the dozens. Sometimes they’re racist/specist, in that they don’t consider the slaughtered people “people.” And they were the bastions of “Law and Goodness.” Then again, all D&D PCs were mass murderers like that. It’s fun that way.
Besides, to say that only pacifists are capable of being “good people” kind of ignores the wide range of human beliefs and the harsh realities of life outside of developed countries. Or even in some developed countries, especially in times of strife. There are sadly situations where good people have to kill in order to survive, or to protect their friends and loved ones. And there are such things as “pacifists” who give lip service to the idea, but really only adhere to it because they want to be snooty and lord their “goodness” over other people. It’s not just religious folk who can be “holier than thou.”
So yeah. Instead of making “killing people” the cause for argument, I’d be complaining based on their meanness. And these guys are all jerks.
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Props to Noc. I can’t find a thing to argue with about his list.
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A good, spine-chilling evil laugh doesn’t thrust one into Chaotic. Although I’m not much of a Spy, so I’ll concede to more experienced folk. Noc, I like your list, and not just because it’s mostly like mine. Although, on second thoughts, I think the Spy is the very definition of NE. Disciplined when he needs it, deception and lies when he needs it, he is whatever he needs to benefit Spy. Whose side is he really on? His.
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@ Nick: “How To Be An Adventurer” was probably my favorite item in IWD2. Most of the description is hilarious but, as you noted, “Face it, you’re actually neutral evil” takes the god damn cake.
That is some actual “profundity” in a video game.
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I just don’t see the Pyro as evil, nor the Soldier. Just mad. Within the gameworld, it’s the scout that’s smart enough to be nasty…
Yeah, I’m with Noc’s list too.
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I like Noc’s list best, but I don’t think the sniper is lawful. I don’t know who would be better in that spot, but it seems to me that the scout is getting stuck where he is because people don’t like him. He seems more like an asshole frat-boy, so perhaps he’d be better as lawful evil, and the sniper is neutral evil.
Oh, RPS is enriched by its nerdiness. I learned a lot about WH2K that I didn’t know. Like what a C’tan was! And about Squats!
Thanks RPS!
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“The Spy is our Satan. He’s Chaotic Evil.”
Satan is lawful evil though.
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Satan is clearly Neutral Evil.
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They all make sense, except for Demoman. He has to be chaotic. I know it means two in one slot but that’s what’s right.
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I’d love to give my own list, but I honestly can’t be arsed right now to take their actual functions into consideration, and then their personalities (which can be really subjectively viewed. Like right now based on my experiences with Scouts in-game plus the Meet the Scout video, I’d put the Scout on chaotic evil without a pause. That demon child needs to burn!), the latter which we can’t truly judge until the rest of the Meet the Team videos come out. So crap. :(
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I’ll go with Noc’s list but switching the places of Spy and Pyro. You can’t deny the Pyro chaotic evil! She’s all about setting fire to things for no other reason than to see them burn, nothing but unreasoning destruction.
The spy is an untrustworthy bastard but his motives could be anything. I don’t think there’s anything he wouldn’t do, good or bad.
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I must concur with Noc on most counts. Though I doubt the goodness of the Engineer, none of the TF2 characters are truly good, merely less evil. I feel he would as soon design a weapon of mass destruction as build a little wooden bridge for his grandma’s garden.
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Noc’s list is almost there.
But for me the Medic is the one true altruistic Lawful Good class.
He’s in there fighting with you, keeping you alive and spurring you on to greatness like some kind of volks cross-dressing fairy godmother.
And he can’t do any wrong.
The Engineer as Kieron says is Lawful Neutral he’s all about keeping the base defence and the rest of the team ticking over.
The Scout as ‘good’ anything doesn’t sit with well me.
If anything he HAS to be Neutral Evil.
The intent to be evil is there but his capability of carrying it out is in question.
The Demo as chaotic?
He may seem chaotic to the casual observer and no doubt he is portrayed that way.
But to actually play him is a very different kettle of fish.
He’s pre-planned, he’s defending your flag, he’s there at the doorway for you covering your exit and he’s Neutral Good.
Evil people run into his bombs it’s not his fault he knows they are coming.
Soldier? Chaotic Neutral.
Is he attacking? Is he defending? Only he knows and sometimes he really doesn’t.
Lawful Good: Medic. <-
Neutral Good: Demo <-
Chaotic Good: Heavy
Lawful Neutral: Engineer <-
Neutral: Pyro
Chaotic Neutral : Soldier <-
Lawful Evil: Sniper
Neutral Evil: Scout
Chaotic Evil: Spy
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Oh dear god what have I become?!
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Yeah, but look at it this way: the Spy stabs you viciously in the back. Why? Because you trusted him.
The Pyro, on the other hand, is something that happens to you. One moment there’s nothing, then there’s a Pyro, then you’re dead and the Pyro runs on. There’s no sadism their, either . . . you cant sit back and watching things burn, you have to take them down as quickly as you can before they can retaliate.
The most satisfying moment of playing the Spy is the one right BEFORE the backstab, when some poor jerk who chose the wrong way to look is standing right in front of you . . . and then the knife comes down and he’s dead, and you KNOW that his killcam’s going to show your bastard chain-smoking face running over his body. He’s going to direct an unspoken expletive at the screen, even if he doesn’t shout it aloud, and fume until the spawn counter finishes ticking down so he can get back and try and kill your ass. It’s sadism through and through.
The Pyro, on the other hand, is about that moment after you’ve taken down a group and suddenly the air is quiet again. You’ve cleansed the place with fire, and, at least for the moment, the point is back to the way it was before. You didn’t outshoot them, you probably didn’t really outwit them . . . you HAPPENED to them, and now things can move on.
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HOLY SHIT
This was me! I made this picture myself and posted it on 4chan afew months ago. Kieron Gillen just made a news post on an image I made. I think I just wet myself *checks*
Yerp.
In defence, alignment posts where in fashion at the time, and I infact don’t play D&D and don’t even think the system has any useful meaning in any real world.
However, nine alignments, nine classes, and a bored McCool made for only one thing.
I’m well aware that Scout doesn’t really fit in the “good” section. This was LONG before “Meet the Scout”, and someone had to go there, so I thought the plucky young sportster seemed the most innocent of the bunch. Really he is more arrogant than a pyschopath.
On my original version Soldier had Chaotic evil, but remembering that he went to fight world war 2 by himself going on a killing spree that lasted WHEN HE FOUND OUT the war ended, I figured he could slot in on Lawful. His motivation is patriotic, or god-fearing “If god had wanted you to exist” but he is very evil. Note the “evil” mainly comes from my own personal contempt for soldier and his “UR A MAGET”ing ways.
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McCool: I’d like to take this time to point out that “It was cool on 4Chan” isn’t really a viable defense.
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My take:
Lawful Good: Engineer. He builds rather than destroys (ok, more than he destroys) and his creations are defensive in nature.
Neutral Good: Medic. He’ll heal anybody (in the right uniform) without making value judgments.
Chaotic Good: Heavy. He lives for the chaos of battle, but he’s a pretty nice guy really.
Lawful Neutral: Sniper. He does the job and never worries about why he’s shooting people in the face.
True Neutral: Pyro. She’s a force of nature and largely devoid of agency. Things burn because they’re flammable, and it is the natural state of affairs for them to burn.
Chaotic Neutral: Demo. All about the gratuitous explosions. I’d probably put him at Chaotic Good if I didn’t care about duplication.
Lawful Evil: Spy. LE is all about exploiting the rules of society to achieve your own twisted ends, and that’s the spy. The rules say that guys in blue uniforms shoot at guys in red uniforms, and he’s a blue guy who figured out he could just put on a red uniform and bring them down from the inside. NE is also a decent fit for him, but he’s the only one who really goes here in my opinion.
Neutral Evil: Scout. He’s the most selfish class, and that’s Neutral Evil to a T.
Chaotic Evil: Soldier. If the Demo moved up to CG with the Heavy, the soldier could go to CN maybe. Still, screaming at a fence with severed heads lined up on it speaks to some serious mental issues of the sort that could be labeled Chaotic Evil.
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To continue,
God I’m getting the waves of guilt now. What have I done? Still, I must persevere and justify my image:
Heavy has to be Neutral Good. He just isn’t unpredictable in any way imaginable. Think of his love of little bomb cart. You can imagine that Heavy does pretty much whatever he is told, as long as he is told it nicely, honestly the big guy is just too dumb to merit the “chaotic” monkier. Also look at his playstyle, he is a rock solid member of the team, he relies on other classes to do anything. He is neutral, no doubt. And good, because Heavy and Medic bring love into TF2.
One that I am suprised no-one has mentioned is Medic. He honestly doesn’t fit there AT ALL. He is the ONLY class without a single nice thing said. He is the nastiest, most concieted, cruel little german imaginable. He is only there because someone had to be, and based on playstyles, Medics are always the nicest.
The trick of doing this is a sort of doublethink: at one time you must look at playstyle, at other times their quotes, or their class’s stereotypical player. Simply because they honestly don’t fit in the 3×3 grid in any totally defendable way.
And yet I decided to pretend they did…
EDIT: To Noc, it wasn’t a defense, it was a confession, okay? ._.
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GEEEEEEKS!
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Jezzz, go to forum.rpg.net to discuss D&D alignments, they are geekier than all of us for this stuff. :P
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Ahem:
Heavy: 4d6 (19-20/x3)
Soldier: 1d20 5 (15-20/x3)
Pyro: 4d4 (19-20/x3) 1d4 fire damage for 3 rounds
Spy: 1d4 (20/x3) 6d6 Sneak Attack
I win! Or lose! I can’t decide. *Rolls d20 to ascertain geekiness*
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Arathain: Actually, you’ve got a good point with the Lawful Good for the Engineer. Lawful Good is no nicer than plain good – in fact, arguably worse, and the Engineers traits are pretty lawful. Not convinced that the Scout fits as well as Lawful Neutral, but you could make a reach to say that the objective-over-all approach. There’s just not enough room for him where he belongs down below.
Regarding the Spy, I may actually be talked around to Neutral Evil on him, despite the deciet being the core of the guy.
McCool: Never apologise! Good work, man.
KG
KG
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Mister British: You’ve given me a worrying idea.
KG
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We can simplify this considerably:
Who do you hate more? Spies or Scouts?
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Lawful Good (AKA the “Saintly” or “Crusader” alignment. A lawful good character typically acts with compassion, and always with honor and a sense of duty.) Soldier. He seems the most with honor and a sense of duty.
Neutral Good (AKA the “Benefactor” alignment. A neutral good character is guided by his conscience and typically acts altruistically, without regard for or against Lawful precepts such as rules or tradition.) Medic obviously.
Chaotic Good (AKA “Beatific” or “Rebel” alignment. A chaotic good character favors change for the greater good, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom.) Scout. They go on with their personal freedom, but do all that for their team’s victory.
Lawful Neutral (AKA “Judge” or “Disciplined” alignment. A lawful neutral character typically believes strongly in Lawful concepts such as honor, order, rules and tradition, and often follows a personal code.) Sniper. He follows a personal code.
Neutral (AKA “Undecided” or “Nature’s” alignment. This alignment represents neutral on both axes, and tends not to feel strongly towards any alignment. A farmer whose only concern is to feed his family is of this alignment.) Engineer is pretty much like a farmer. He feeds his “family” (the team) and goes on pretty much in his own game with maintaining his constructions.
Chaotic Neutral (AKA “Anarchist” or “Free Spirit” alignment. A character of this alignment is an individualist who follows his or her own heart, shirks rules and traditions. They typically act out of self-interest, but do not enjoy seeing others suffer.) Heavy. Well, no one would fit in here with the last sentence, but Heavy seems the most fitting here.
Lawful Evil (AKA “Dominator” or “Diabolic” alignment. Characters of this alignment show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits: while they typically obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals.) Pyro. I’m basing this on the “rights and freedoms” part, which Pyros kind of invade with fire.
Neutral Evil (AKA “Malefactor” alignment. Characters of this alignment are typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment. They have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it. An example would be an assassin, who has little regard for formal laws but does not needlessly kill.) Spy obviously.
Chaotic Evil (AKA “Destroyer” or “Demonic” alignment. Characters of this alignment tend to have little respect for rules, other peoples’ lives, or anything but their own selfish desires. They typically only behave themselves out of fear of punishment.) Demoman the Destroyer. They are just truely chaotic with their bomb spamming and destroying.
Heavy and Scout were pretty much either way and actually I’ve mostly played a rogue (which could be a Scout) as a chaotic neutral character, but Scout just fits more with CG description than Heavy. But I’m not all that convinced of Heavy being CG, but that’s probably the closest.
Alignment descriptions from Wikipedia – Alignment (Dungeons & Dragons)
Edit: Whoa, that became a long post. :O
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Noc gets it right, for my money.
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“I never really was on your side”
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I’m actually rather glad by geekdom stopped before reaching D&D, its just a step too far.
I’ll stick with flamethrowers and spaceships thank you very much.
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Don’t do it! You’re wasting your life!
Also, a game up to three intel captures would take all afternoon. Go outside and talk to some girls.
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Beautiful.
The Woo Factor of anything is inversely proportional to the amount of people who’ll be able to appreciate it. Geeky just means narrow, but high.
But: Soldier is obviously LG! Paladin!
“If GOD had wanted you to live, he would not have created ME!”
Yes, I almost wrote this post. Now where’s my damn coffee?
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D&D’s alignment system is a crude measure . But TF2 is the best MP RPG ever made. Think about it: rich characters, and it’s very difficult _not_ to play in character.
#1 nerd award goes to Nick both for citing IWD2 and using the acronym “CRPG” (as if there were another kind)
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BEST RPS THREAD, EVAR!!!
Also, I agree with Noc . Except switch the Medic and Engineer.
I also think Sniper and solider could be swapped.
Maybe.
Still, Heavy is clearly Chaotic Good. He doesn’t know he’s ripping everyone to shreds, he just thinks they’re all playing a game. “Stop, little cart, stop!”
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@ Arathain
Actually, Satan is Lawful Evil, because he is a devil, and in D&D, devils are Lawful Evil aligned.
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Wow, this is just… ‘mazin’, essentially. I kinda agree with Noc but then I’d say myself that an argument can be made for virtually every class to be in any alignment – for instance the Heavy wants you to CRY SOME MORE.
So, anyone anywhere for me but if pushed Noc’s, I reckon.
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Clicky: D&D theology ranks somewhat beneath actual theology for me.
KG
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“Mister British: You’ve given me a worrying idea”
TF2 the Roguelike?
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TF2: Fourth Edition, clearly.
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DF20? (GEDDIT?!)
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LG Medic
NG Pyro
CG Heavy
LN Soldier
N Engineer
CN Scout
LE Sniper
NE Demo
CE Spy
The Medic fits Lawful Good as he selflessly spends his time aiding and assisting others, often with no gain for himself.
The Pyro can theoretically fit anywhere, as one cannot really tell her motivations from her weapon alone, which is basically all you have to go on. So I stuck her at Neutral Good as that was what was left over.
The Heavy has to be Chaotic Good, as the similarities to Minsc (already pointed out) are too great.
Lawful Neutral characters tend to be ones who value order over everything else. The Soldier fits best simply because of his name – one who follows orders, right or wrong, because he has to.
The Engineer cares only for his buildings, nothing else. Morality doesn’t even figure into his worldview. Hence he is clearly Neutral.
The Scout is the most psychotic of them all. He fits Chaotic Neutral pretty well. Also, “Neutral Chaotic” Kieron? Reading that makes the geek in me die a little.
Lawful Evil is the Sniper as stated above.
The Demo ends up with Neutral Evil mostly because there’s no where else for him to go.
Yes, the Spy is clearly Chaotic Evil. Utterly selfish and completely disregarding of everyone else.
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But there’s only 5 alignments in 4th edition. (Which I thought was a stupid change. One less thing to argue about… now we just have to chew over whether temporary hit points stack for
pyrosinfernal pact warlocks.)report
The hardest part about placing the different classes into an alignment is that you have to take into account so many things. You’ve got to consider Valve’s purpose for each class. Then there’s the personality of each class (really only revealed through the Meet the …” videos). Then of course, we’re all biased by which classes we love to play and which classes we love to hate. Finally, you have to consider how you play the class, how other good players play the class, and how game-ruining self-mutilating mouthbreathing f*cktards play the class.
That being said, I like Noc’s list. Now that the geeky D&D alignment charts for TF2 are out, the next step is to get some good TF2 Motivational posters. I’m thinking something like a picture of the Intel room in 2Fort absolutely covered in Sentries, with the title “Camping – It’s a legitimate strategy!”
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I totally dig the various proposed versions, here. Kudos to Kieron and the gang (especially McCool!) for the idea.
Just as a thought exercise, I tried instead mapping “(direct) damage dealing” to the “good-evil” axis, and “reliability/stability” to the “lawful-chaotic” axis. Not exactly representative of the original alignment axes, but a good approximation, given that all of the classes are amoral murder machines.
Lawful Good – Medic (almost definitively non-damage dealing, and must be so reliable that you put your life in his hands)
Neutral Good – Engineer (he doesn’t generally deal direct damage, and you can certainly rely on his equipment – except occasionally, when they’re having fun with teleporters)
Chaotic Good – Scout (not as much of a damage dealer as the rest, but very, very unpredictable)
Lawful Neutral – Heavy (dishes out the damage, but you can see him coming a mile away)
True Neutral – Pyro (a quick, mobile damage hose, versatile enough for defense or offense – the pyro is such a cypher, it could fit in anywhere)
Chaotic Neutral – Soldier (Those rockets can put a lot of hurting, and you never know when he’s going to come rocket jumping into your face)
Lawful Evil – Sniper (Cold, efficient, one-shot head-exploding power – it’s hard to top a good sniper for reliable killing force)
Neutral Evil – Demoman (Step wrong and you’re dead in an instant, and you’re never quite sure where he’s hidden a few stickies)
Chaotic Evil – Spy (Untrustworthy by their very nature, and able to kill anyone with one well-placed knife)
Again, it’s not a perfect fit or anything, but reasonably measured for all. And a satisfying way of breaking down the classes, I feel.
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Bah.
Boring me says: Just why do this?
D&D nerd me says:
Awesome… except 4e is released move on people! =p
Your alignment can now be:
Good: ‘reedom and kindness
Lawful Good: Civilisation and order
Evil: Tyranny and hatred
Chaotic Evil: Entropy and destruction
Unaligned: Taking no stand…
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This post is so awesomely geeky that I have to throw in my two pence. I’m going to make my alignment determinations according to 2nd Edition AD&D, because I’ve played far too much Baldur’s Gate, and those are my favourite definitions.
Lawful Good: Heavy – The Heavy is the obvious Paladin analogue here, since he’s the non-too-smart, but oddly charismatic tank, who wants to believe he’s fighting for the right side. He also has a strong sense of protectiveness and personal responsibility (“WHO TOUCHED MY GUN?”) but lacks the intelligence and articulacy of other classes.
Neutral Good: Engineer – The Engineer is only concerned with building infrastructure for the greater good of his team. When push comes to shove, he’ll defend himself against aggressors and fight to the death, but otherwise his existence is selfless in the service of his community. Classic Neutral Good.
Chaotic Good: Demoman – Here I’m reaching a little, but the Demoman is arguably the classical Ranger analogue. He prefers indirect combat, and shies away from upfront battle. By laying traps or engaging enemies from long distance, it’s difficult to predict where his influence will be felt, as he’s there to support his comrades from a distance, rather to stand shoulder to shoulder with them.
Lawful Neutral: Spy – I don’t think that the Spy is intrinsically evil. In fact, he’s an individual who’s willing to take immense personal risk by going behind enemy lines to further the interests of his team. This means he must occasionally act in ways contrary to his ultimate objectives to preserve his cover, but in the end, it *is* just and act. The Spy is dedicated to the ideals and success of his team, even if he must use unorthodox means to achieve them.
True Neutral: Medic – The Medic is the Druid or Cleric analogue. He’s there to heal and preserve life, not make judgments as to how or why people are being injured. When the natural balance of the teams is threatened, sometimes the Medic may take an active role, making members of the assault team invulnerable, or taking the battle to the other team himself, but otherwise, the Medic lives to preserve the balance of the two sides.
Chaotic Neutral: Pyro – The Pyro is (in AD&D analogy) a bonkers Fire Sorceress. She doesn’t care who gets in her way – friend or foe – all that concerns her is the fire. She’s unpredictable, but not truly evil. Fire is her only friend, it doesn’t matter who she lets it consume.
Lawful Evil: Soldier – Let’s be frank. This guy’s in it for the killing. Of course, he belongs to a very organised and regimented profession, but he just wants to get out there and blow shit up. He wants to kill, but doesn’t kill indiscriminately. He only does it within the rules of engagement, and that makes him Lawful Evil.
Neutral Evil: Sniper – “I’m not a crazed gunman, Dad, I’m an assassin!” The Sniper makes his living from killing people. It doesn’t matter who, it doesn’t matter where, as long as that bullet goes through the right skull, the Sniper gets his money and is happy. The Sniper murders consistently and purely for his own advancement. He doesn’t really care about “the team”. He’s in it for himself.
Chaotic Evil: Scout – The Scout plays it fast and loose. He likes to kill (“and brother, I hurt people.”) just for the thrill of the kill and gets stuck in as fast as possible, using his speed and mobility to avoid retribution. The Scout is also a total dick (“I blew up your stupid crap, moron!”) and has such an insufferably high opinion of himself (“Whooooo!”) that he’s hardly going to care if you disagree. He gets my vote for the Chaotic Evil Thief/Rogue archetype.
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(WARNING: AD&D 1st Edition Ahead!)
Alignment??? No, ur doon it wrong.
Hit Die:
Scout, Spy: d4
Pyro, Sniper: d6
Engineer, Medic: d8
Soldier, Demoman: d10
Heavy: d12
You probably should use the ‘house rule’ that gives each class their full hit die-hit points at first level. TF2 characters are about 3rd level. Don’t forget your CON bonuses per level!
Minimum Ability Scores:
Scout: DEX 14
Engineer: INT 10
Medic: WIS 12
Demoman: CON 13, DEX 8
Heavy: STR 14
Soldier: STR 10, CON 10
Spy: CHA 12
Sniper: DEX 10
Pyro: CON 12
There’s potentially more I could write, but I think you get the point.
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Noc’s pretty much spot on. I’d like to make the Medic Lawful Good (given that he’s all about forsaking individual glory for the greater good) but the Engi, Sniper and Soldier all self-evidently have to be Lawful, so on balance I’d keep it as-is.
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And now my plan comes to fruition. As you can see, it is possible to fit all the classes around almost anywhere and argue for it. The one thing that cept me sane when coming up with this, fighting my natural dislike of D&D, was if people argued over it enough it would server as an awesome critique of the system as a hole.
It really is abit rubbish.
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Just change the name of the site to Rock, Paper, TF2 and be done with it.
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“Erlam:
Paladins pre-4th Edition were Lawful Good, and they killed people by the dozens. Sometimes they’re racist/specist, in that they don’t consider the slaughtered people “people.” And they were the bastions of “Law and Goodness.” Then again, all D&D PCs were mass murderers like that. It’s fun that way.”
I always thought they were/should have been Chaotic Good. or Lawful Evil. Whichever, heh.
Out of curiousity, why does everyone think the Scout is ‘evil’ for being a dick? I’m pretty sure evil requires more, and it isn’t like the game doesn’t have enough violence to find something else to use ;)
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@Kieron, I assumed that we were talking about the D&D version of Satan.
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Even though I like to put Medic (in general) in Neutral Good slot, I think (TF2) Medic probably should be in True Neutral Slot since he’s giving all that “love” to everyone, no matter how evil, good, chaotic or lawful his friends are.
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The only link between Chaotic and deceit is stylistic. Lawful = honest (i.e. devils cannot lie) is only an interpretation and aspect of it. Lawfulness is about as much about consistency, and Chaotic about inconsistency, as it is about truth or lack of it.
Ergo the Spy isn’t restrained to Chaos based on his deceit. He could be argued as far as Lawful. A chaotic, undisciplined mind could never achieve the level of understanding necessary to perfectly mimic the actions of enemy players, and never maintain the patience to wait for the right moment to strike.
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Spot on, but the scout is chaotic neutral. He’s a guido from Brooklyn, for God’s sake! He’s gonna do whatever he feels like, you got a problem with that, punk?
Question, why are they ordered that way instead of LG,LN,LE, NG,TN,NE, CG,CN,CE?
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I’ll make the argument that although I agree the Scout is Neutral Good, the players who are playing him, are Chaotic Evil. That’s a definite penalty towards your Charisma guys. Sorry.
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@Erlam: “Out of curiousity, why does everyone think the Scout is ‘evil’ for being a dick?”
It’s not just because he’s a dick. That’s the icing on the cake. I went for Chaotic Evil based mainly on the Meet The Scout video. Let’s look at the evidence; he’s a raving egomaniac and enjoys violence for its own sake – that is, rather than killing him by surprise, which he easily could have done, he chooses to actively torment the Heavy before killing him. All for the sake of a sandwich. The sheer pettiness is bad enough, but choosing to actively prolong the Heavy’s suffering just because he *can*… that’s evil.
The fact that he even engages in hand-to-hand combat in the first place is a good sign of chaotic behaviour, since he’s much more vulnerable at close quarters compared to when he can use his speed and mobility to (literally) stay out of arms reach. Overconfidence is a common trait in chaotic evil characters, and is occasionally their undoing. (though not in the case of the video, obviously)
@Pushlittlekart: Note that the Scout is from Boston, not Brooklyn.
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Thanks for the correction about the scout being from Boston.
mujadaddy, you forgot COM. Can a pyro have a comeliness value, given the gas mask?
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COMe, now, pushlittlekart… Comeliness isn’t exactly a primary trait in military sausage-fests, speculation of a bottom-heavy pyro notwithstanding… :P
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Just a couple of things….
I think there is certainly a case for the Spy as Chaotic Neutral as he literally switches sides every 10 seconds.
…and the Medic is so totally an evil character – I’d go as far as chaotic evil. He openly experiments on the members of his team in field conditions, and takes a bonesaw to the enemy given the chance! Take another look at the Medic in the TF2 group shot and then try to tell me thats the face of a neutral character =P
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Looking at the same chart and their pictures, the heavy is Lawful good, the medic is chaotic good, the scout is lawful neutral, the engineer is lawful evil, the sniper is neutral evil, the demoman is neutral good, the soldier is way too ugly, the spy is neutral evil too, and the pyro is the pyro, I can’t see what he looks like under that mask.
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