Rock, Paper, Shotgun

Thoughts: What Went Wrong In Dragon Age II

By John Walker on March 31st, 2011 at 8:05 pm.

There sure are some dragons for some reason.

You may have noticed the lack of a full Dragon Age II review on RPS. This has nothing to do with slacking. I’ve been playing the game almost every day since my WIT of the first few hours, now on my second play through, just trying to get my head around what it is they got wrong. That’s what I’ve tried to process here. As such, the below contains information that could spoil the story of the game.

What exactly was Flemeth doing there?

It would be madness to say that Dragon Age II is a bad game. Such is the lunatic binary nature of people’s responses to games that its having fallen short of its own predecessor, and indeed its own expectations, seems to create a desire to loudly deride it. The iTunes rating system of 1 or 5 seems to be infesting our realm, and it’s important to recognise disappointment in context. Am I disappointed by Dragon Age II? Very much so. Does that mean it’s terrible? Absolutely not.

What follows is a critique of where I think Dragon Age II went wrong. Read without bearing this in mind it could look like an overtly negative review. It’s not. The game gets much right, with some lovely quests, fun chats, interesting characters, and moving stories. There’s tough subjects covered, including a plot that asks whether you can sympathise with a paedophile, the pursuing of serial killers, and fights with giant bronze statues. As an RPG it succeeds in many ways. This isn’t about that. This is about trying to understand why this time that’s not enough.

What’s taken me so long is in trying to identify how it fell short. I’ve tried various mental exercises, most frequently: If this weren’t a BioWare game, weren’t a sequel to Dragon Age, what would I think of it? Where would it rate in the history of RPGs?

Obviously the original Dragon Age was a divisive game, and my adoration for it is not shared by all. Sitting with colleagues who were also reviewing it, many loud-voiced, arm-waving conversations took place as we passionately disagreed with each other about its merits. But almost all of these discussions (once you’d removed the details relevant to someone’s playing the weaker 360 version) seemed to come down to expectations.

I played the first game in interesting conditions. While I’d seen the terrible marketing campaign, and the laughable E3 2009 demonstration, I had played the game to completion, over 120 hours (including all the openings, multiple endings, etc) in my own time, over a month before the game was released. I was not confronted with conflicting opinions – indeed, no opinions at all but for my own. And I adored it. Because what I wanted from an RPG was an enormous, involving world, vivid characters, a strong, interesting narrative, and most of all, relationship. And I believe Dragon Age offered me that in droves.

Yes, there are some corny bits, some ploddy sections (Deep Roads, etc), and some ghastly lines of dialogue. But over all it was a game imbued with passion, a decade in the creation, in a world with an astonishingly rich history, inhabited by a mix of characters who while certainly stereotypes, often avoided cliché.

I didn’t mention combat. I think the combat in Dragon Age is great, micromanaging the battles with my four characters, employing tactics, freezing the action between every blast to issue orders, negotiating tricky battles on a number of fronts. Excellent stuff. But it wasn’t very important to me. It wasn’t one of my expectations.

Of course it’s impossible to come to Dragon Age II with such a clean slate. Because at the very least, you’re expecting Dragon Age: Origins. And you’re not getting it. Any sequel that’s a regression of the original, however intentionally, is always going to struggle in comparison. There can’t have been any surprises at BioWare that a game one third the length (in fact, not enormously longer than the half-price follow-on for Origins, Awakenings), set in a massively smaller world, was going to met with at least raised eyebrows. You can’t really stick “II” on the end of your game title and expect otherwise.

I think it’s also important to get some perspective on scale here. The average full price cross-platform coming out today has about eight hours of single player content. Dragon Age II has a good 40. (Those who are finishing it in significantly less are missing huge sections of the game in order to be able to do so, which is fine, but it’s also not representative of what the game can offer.) DAO may have had a mad 100 or so, but 40 hours is still a remarkable amount of game. Let’s not lose site of that.

The most interesting thing about Dragon Age II, and indeed its biggest failing, is the setting. But first let’s look at how we get to it.

This time your choice of character is much more defined. You can be a human rogue, mage or warrior, male or female. This is still a significant choice, especially if you pick mage, but of course not nearly so impacting as DAO’s mult-race, multi-class options. There’s only one opening (which differs slightly depending upon whether you’re a mage or not), and it’s not an interesting one. In fact, it seems to be deliberately dull. Told in hindsight by the dwarf, Varric, to his interrogator, you flash back to the start of the “Champion of Kirkwall”’s story.

It’s the time of the Blight, Lothering has fallen, and you and your family are fleeing Ferelden to escape to Kirkwall. You’re already mid-flee, encountering Darkspawn and learning the ropes of the combat. Which is much the same as DAO’s combat, except executed in such a way that there’s less need for tactics. We then get the flashback joke as it’s revealed Varric isn’t telling the truth, and mystifyingly have to repeat the same dull section, this time with complaining companions.

It ends in a fight that, well, I was doing just fine at that’s interrupted by the arrive of the Witch of the Wilds, Flemeth, in the form of a dragon. She asks for a mysterious favour, and then in some unexplained way helps you get to Kirkwall.

As a beginning it makes innumerous mistakes, but the most resounding is the complete sense of disconnect it gives you to your character. Picking him/her up in mid flow (for me it was a her, so for simplicity we’ll stick with that), she’s independent of you in her struggle. Not only is it made clear that the events you’re playing have already happened, but its emphasised upon you that you’re just an observer of an already complete family in the midst of their struggle. Why didn’t we see them in Lothering? Play as our character in our own home, talking to our mother and brother/sister about the threat, and then see it destroy our lives? It’s something DAO understood so well, each of the six openings establishing brief normality before the abnormality broke out. It’s such a critical mistake here, dumping a life on you in the middle of its story.

It certainly isn’t helped by BioWare’s strange determination to make all their starting companions as tedious as possible. While Alistair certainly bucked that trend for DAO (don’t you dare say he didn’t!), here we have people that rival Mass Effect’s Ashley Williams for the personality of a sponge cake. Playing as a mage, I had the delight of keeping my brother, Carver Hawke, alive. What a pleasure he was to have around, vacuously moaning the entire time. And I’m not sure they’ve written a major character as poorly as your mother, who stands around feebly, and flutters in the background for half the game. She’s such a shell of a character, displaying none of the gumption one might expect from a woman who’d defied the nobility of her family to marry an apostate mage.

The sister character, Bethany, is still unpatterned cream wallpaper, but at least not actively draining to be around, as I’m discovering on my second play through. But perhaps worst of all is warrior Aveline, another Ferelden you pick up during the early sequences. Playing a huge role in the overall story, her monotonous voice sounds as though she’s delivering options for an automated telephone answering service, yet somehow less interesting. The insta-death of her husband is one half of the attempt to inject an emotional tone to what’s essentially an enforced tutorial, but her robot tones make it seem ridiculous. “Press 2 to cry now.”

But that’s as nothing compared to the sheer idiocy of the way either Carver or Bethany is killed seconds earlier. People we’ve never met, people the game hasn’t even tried to tell us anything about, let alone care for, get killed in a sequence that’s essentially an enforced failure. It reeks of desperation, of a desire to create a dark tone to the opening, that misses so widely that you’re basically taught that your family is disposable.

So this takes us to our setting: Kirkwall. “The City of Chains”, Kirkwall was once a hub of slavery, and the shadow still haunts it. Divided by money, the rich Hightown looks over the poverty of Lowtown, the Gallows, the Docks, and worst off of all, Darktown. But this is not the starting city, from which you explore the larger reaches of the lands. This, but for a few fixed locations in the nearby hills, is it. It’s a bold move, restricting a lengthy game to such a small area, to something not much bigger than DAO’s Denerim.

The idea is, and I love this idea in concept so much, that you’re not playing as the last hero in the land, saving the universe. You’re just some refugee, trying to survive in a city that has no fondness for Fereldens, working you way up through the ranks from villainy to nobility, seeing the city change shape through time. I wish I could have played that game.

Instead, from the opening moments, you know that your character isn’t just some refugee. She’s going to be “The Champion”, revered and terrifying. You don’t know how or why, but you’ve no choice but to know. So you can never relax into being a citizen – you’re waiting for this constantly teased progression to occur. And you’re waiting for a really long time, with seemingly little purpose.

The first third of the game has you looking for money to make an expedition into the dwarven Deep Roads. It’s a strange target to pick, the Roads generally agreed to have been DAO’s point of bloatedness – they’re not the most appealing prospect to return to. And why this particular expedition is of such import is scarcely explained. So you’re completing quests to raise money, and that’s it. That’s your motivation. Which isn’t necessarily bad, but without a better sense of the troubles to come, it just feels aimless. Which is twice as weird when you begin the second act and things are still just as aimless.

The trouble is, each time the game jumps forward three years, any sense of having connected to anything that’s going on is torn from you. Suddenly you’re not who you were before, with the seemingly interesting bits happening while we were off watching an animated cutscene. Oh, I’ve got my own place now? I’m rich now? Then how come I have the same amount of gold as before, the same equipment, and so on? Oh, I’m the Champion now? That little fight was enough? Really?

(The most hilariously daft aspect of these three year comas must be the man queuing up to see the Viscount, who moans every time you walk past him that he’s been waiting all day. “For six years!” I would helpfully tell him as he repeated his only line deep into the game.)

And the city doesn’t change in any interesting way. Sure, the Qunari (the oversees race who seem to be in town to cause some sort of trouble) eventually are gone, so that bit’s closed off, or whatever. But the same people mill in the same places, the same merchants stand at the same stalls, the same buildings stand in the same places. It’s a conceit that the game seems entirely unwilling to deliver on in any imaginative way.

Which brings me to the issue with the overriding themes of the game. DA2 picks up two of the more compelling aspects of the first game to run with here. The conflict between the Templar (the military order of the area’s main human religion, the Chantry) and mages, and the complexity of a mage’s vulnerability to infestation by demons. Both were fascinating details in DAO, carefully left in the background for you to explore at whatever depth you preferred. Here the two heavily linked subjects are brought to the front.

So the Templar want mages to be kept in Circles, essentially mage open-ish prisons where society is protected from the potential danger of their letting demons in from the Fade. The mages, who are born that way, want to be free. And this is made more complicated by Blood Magic, a form of magic that requires deliberately opening yourself up to demonic possession.

This latter part is explored from two angles. You’ve got Anders, the formerly fantastically grumpy character from Awakenings, possessed by an ancient spirit of Justice, and Merrill, a delightfully cute Welsh elf who just happens to dabble in blood magic in order to pursue her fervent passion for the recovery and preservation of elven history.

Unfortunately, as interesting as this all certainly would have been when it was written in the story documents, the game itself cannot sustain them. For instance, playing as a mage, I frequently unleashed magic in front of Templars who would then express astonishment if I mentioned that I was an apostate too. In fact, I unlocked blood magic as an skill just to see how it would affect a story that was primarily about helping or killing blood mages. It, er, didn’t make any difference whatsoever, to the point where it was just ignored. Which makes beyond no sense.

Sometimes the game’s conversations would recognise that I was a mage, and allow me to mention that. Other times mages would be discussed as if they were other people. All made laughable by my standing there in a mage’s outfit, carrying a bloody great magic staff.

But the issue goes deeper than just mechanically. The game doesn’t seem to have the wherewithal to manage such a complex and nuanced story in its own narrative. At a certain point I had no idea which blood mage was which, as every single quest blurred into one. I’d deliberately defy orders to kill them/arrest them, and try to set them free (the angle I’d chosen to take for my character), and nearly every time they’d turn into a demon and I’d have to kill them anyway.

Which is, in fact, the model for most of the game. Where BioWare’s wonderful Knights Of The Old Republic offered the illusion of choice, changing the way you behaved in the fixed events, Dragon Age II offers not even an illusion. Do you want to open door A or door B? Both open up into a fight where you kill someone, but door A meant you wanted to. And this, tragically, even applies to the game’s floppy, hapless ending.

I’ve carved out a path through the game – at every junction I’ve chosen to fight for the mages against the Templar, I’ve argued the mages’ cause in every discussion. So why am I being asked whose side I’m on at all?! Let alone why does that make absolutely no difference whatsoever to what I’m actually going to play?

In the end Dragon Age II has nothing to say about slavery, subjugation, or acculturation – themes that shone in Origins. It pretends it does, but it’s all flap and waffle to excuse some more fights. It has nowhere to go, nothing to reach for.

The plight of the elves, either City or Dalish, is trivialised to a couple of asides, and the dwarven caste system that surely provided Origins’ most controversial elements is completely absent, maybe alluded to in one or two lines. We’re just left with the mages, and it’s offered to us in such a silly way that it doesn’t allow us to think anything interesting. Every blood mage turns into a demon, and yet no one seems to notice. Fighting for them begins to make blurry sense, and yet fighting against aligns you with psychopaths who wish to see horrific acts of mental abuse and eugenics.

In the end, what it came down to for me was my realising that I didn’t care what other characters thought of me. In most of BioWare’s RPGs, my relationship with the companions I care about is paramount. And not even including the romance. Oh, let’s look at that quickly.

Female Hawke is not a very nice person to start with. The decision to voice the player character, and to give them Mass Effect 2’s ambiguous dialogue wheels, was I think a very bad one. I was left with someone who just seemed unnecessarily rude to people, despite my desperately picking the nicest options. But when it came to flirting, Hawke was not exactly subtle.

The conversation options with a heart symbol really would have been better represented by someone shaking a vertical fist over a horizontal arm, shouting, “WUUURRGGGHH!” Hawke’s predatory attempts to convince people to fuck her are so far from any notion of “romance” that they’re only laughable. Which is all the more awkward when you’re saying them to someone who’s being tender in response. Poor Anders. It’s bad enough that they emasculated him to become such a weedy drip, but I wonder if he felt he had any choice about shacking up with Hawke once she set her sights on him.

Such extremes meant I stopped caring. Who cares if Aveline is offended by me? Why should I be bothered if Varric doesn’t like a decision I made? In fact, can we all just shut up so I can ding the next quest?

It’s certainly not helped that every character has so few barks. They have about fifteen million lines of great dialogue written for each of them, but only three things to say in a fight? It’s hard not to start to hate them for that alone. It would have been so little effort to provide some variety in the thing players would encounter the most frequently.

And sadly, by the end, I stopped caring altogether. I switched the combat down to “casual” because I was so bored of having the same fight sixty-three times an hour. Without the need for tactics, and with the mindlessly stupid decision to have repeated waves of enemies, once I’d unlocked enough abilities to spam through combat it became an incredibly frequent irritant. And boss fights didn’t ask for any skill whatsoever – they were just long, boring sequences where the only challenge was to see if I culd time my party’s heals such that they stayed alive long enough to watch the baddy finally keel over.

The game then betrayed me in two extraordinary ways. Firstly the biggest plot point in the game – one that changed everything that I’d been working for – happened in a cutscene, caused by one of my companions, and would have happened no matter what actions I’d taken before. It was such a strikingly bad decision, yet again making me feel irrelevant to the action. Sure, it’s great that an NPC can heavily impact the world. But surely I should get to be involved on some level?

And then the fudged ending forcing me to go down the same path whichever major choices I’d made, left me feeling cold. That it ends on a mother-sodding cliffhanger felt par for the course of the frenzy of middle fingers being stuck up at me, and when it didn’t bother to tell me what happened next to any of my companions, I realised I didn’t care.

So yes – I have a lot of negative things to say about the game. Things that meant that at the end, despite its genuinely being a solid RPG in many respects (I could talk about the improved crafting, entertainingly daft side stories, companion quests (although what the bloody hell was Merrill’s actually about?), refined skill system, amazing background conversations, excellent voice acting, interesting Qunari plot, and much more), I ended up not really liking it as a whole.

I think saying “II” was probably this game’s biggest mistake. When it feels more like a sister product to Awakenings than a full, unique game, surely it would have more sense to market it that way, even at full price? It’s not a sequel to the epic Dragon Age: Origins, in any meaningful sense. When I think about the breathtaking scale, the depth of history, the religious conflicts, the horrendous racism and classism, and moving, emotional narrative, it seems daft to have considered this the second incarnation of that. It’s a game set in a single city, with nowhere else to go, exploring six years of a group of people’s lives. It’s confined, which is fine, but it’s not the epic RPG we were reasonably expecting.

Another mental exercise I’ve done is to wonder what I’d have thought had this been sold to me as another Dragon Age sub-game, a different perspective on the same world. And while I’d have had the same issues with the same significant mistakes, I don’t think I’d feel quite as thrown by it.

Can we agree to call a mulligan on this one? Let’s retitle it, “Dragon Age: Kirkwall”, and BioWare can take a lot more time making the real Dragon Age II.

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396 Comments »

  1. Hardtarget says:

    Finally beat it last night, took me 33 hours, played every quest I could (somehow Fenris’ act 3 quest never was offered for me though) and I must say I really enjoyed it. I don’t get all the bad press the game is getting, i dug the story and the combat. Only thing that grated on me was the reuse of dungeons.

    • Wooly says:

      Agreed, I loved it! It certainly had its flaws such as the repeated dungeons and lack of a tactical camera (grr), but I overall enjoyed it immensely. The story , combat, and characters were all amazing. I feel like a lot of complaints are stemming from the fact that it’s not Dragon Age: Origins II. There are certainly legitimate complaints out there, but to me the refinements and qualities of the game vastly outweigh its detriments. Hopefully the internet’s reaction will not put Bioware off of innovation and instead get them to fix the minor errors for Dragon Age III.

    • Wooly says:

      As an addendum, they should probably have named it Dragon Age: Kirkwall or something to that effect to lessen the rage of the AIMs

    • Jesse L says:

      But what does that have to do with this article I just read?

    • noodlecake says:

      I completely agree.

      I thought this was more enjoyable than Origins. They tried to do something completely different, unlike with the first one and it paid off, more or less. It’s a shame that people want to play the same generic PC style RPG over and over.

      While most of what this article says is true, to a degree, Origins was slow and felt like a grind, which is a shame. If there was some way of implementing the improved combat system into the old game I might give it another go. :) It was very bland and generic (as was the story!)

    • Wizardry says:

      Hey, noodlecake. What is the generic PC style RPG? Can you give me examples?

    • Nick says:

      “Hopefully the internet’s reaction will not put Bioware off of innovation”

      What innovation?

    • Ovno says:

      “It’s a shame that people want to play the same generic PC style RPG over and over.”

      I know I mean theres been so many of these pc style rpgs in the last 8 years, theres been DA:O and errrrrrrrr, oh yeah no others well one is certainly the defintion of over and over so you must be right.

      And after all there have been so few console style shallow action rpgs during that time as well, so few I can’t be bothered to list them, becuase it would take hours…

      Why oh why could we not just have DA:O 2 instead of DA:ME:DLC:2…

    • Hallgrim says:

      @Wizardry:

      Stuff like KOTOR, which was derived from Baldur’s Gate, Baldur’s Gate 2, and Planescape, which were derived from early (commodore early) SSI DND games.

      Dragon Age 1 was definitely a member of this lineage.

    • Wizardry says:

      There is a huge difference between Baldur’s Gate and SSI’s Gold Box games. There is also a huge difference between Baldur’s Gate and Knights of the Old Republic. The Gold Box games have more in common with Japanese tactical RPGs than Dragon Age II.

    • akio_outori says:

      I’m with the people that loved this one, and as strange as it seems one of the reasons I loved it was because it was on rails.
      I agree that typically PC RPGs, certainly Bioware RPGs usually have the same story. In fact, the similarities between the gameplay/storyline/npcs in KOTOR, NWN2, and DA:O make me want to choke. DA:O was good, but as another reviewer said, it was like Bioware put thousands of hours into making a really interesting world, and then forgot they made it and put a stock plot overtop of it.
      By stock plot, what I mean is “oh, I’m a random generic hero that will need to travel around the world gathering my allies in order to fight a giant demon.” Don’t get me wrong, its not a bad implimentation at all, but the story arc for DA2 definitely has more character.
      That said, and while I agree with a number of the reviewers comments, I want to put in a few words on what I feel like Bioware did right with this:
      Making a cohesive story that I CAN’T change everytime I feel like it. I appreciate that there actually is a story unfolding here, and I’m not always in the middle of it. Its something that helps that story come to the forefront and actually makes me want to complete it, knowing that there’s a narrative unfolding and that I’m not going to shortcircuit it in a random character interaction.
      Most character and companion development is intentional and woven into the story. This, IMO, is the best change in the game. Nothing detracts from previous titles more than having to spend 20 hours in conversation with my characters, carefully choosing dialogue options so that I don’t offend them. In this title, my interactions have impact (in my game, Merrill hates me) and happen at significant times, rather than in random back alleys where I finally got the notion to click on that person. The story can continue without massive impact. There’s probably a balance here, but its nice not to spend the entire game worried that I’ll break my favorite companion because I talked to the werewolf wrong.
      Combat – the combat and strategy in the game could be better, but I’m glad that character creation and party makeup are lenient enough that they kindof fade into the background to let the tension between the templars and mages come out.
      Loved the ending, wonderful setting up for an expansion that I’m dying to play. Mage wars please!

  2. kyrieee says:

    I think this game proves that 40 hours doesn’t mean anything, it doesn’t mean it should cost full price. It’s 40 hours of the same content recycled.

    • John Walker says:

      No it isn’t. Don’t be silly.

    • Bhazor says:

      Recycled dungeons much?

    • John Walker says:

      Certainly, which is a bit tacky. But it’s hardly the game’s biggest flaw.

    • Rangersix says:

      This isn’t just a step backwards compared to DA:O, this is a step backwards compared to all their titles. How they managed to create and release this when they have a whole line of inhouse examples of how to do it right, baffles me.

      Oh right EA.

    • ReV_VAdAUL says:

      If you feel the need to turn the difficulty of a game down to get through it quicker its’ length is perhaps not that much of a reliable measure?

    • Bhazor says:

      Especially when by your own admission “I was so bored of having the same fight sixty-three times an hour. Without the need for tactics, and with the mindlessly stupid decision to have repeated waves of enemies”

      So apart from combat scenarios, enemies and locations there’s very little repetition?

    • Jimbo says:

      There’s tons of padding which could have been stripped out without harming the game one bit. And an awful lot of the quests revolve around very slightly different takes on a mage becoming demony, just to really hammer the point home. At some point there should probably be an option to suggest simply not having a Circle of Mages in a city where so much bad shit has happened.

      I can’t help but feel that, given the main thrust of the story, the game would have been better served by placing you inside the Chantry as either a Mage (forced into the Circle as a child) or a Templar (rescued by them as they flee Lothering, and raised in their ranks) and letting you see how the situation evolves first hand.

    • Hoaxfish says:

      40 hours, or whatever, is exactly one of those BS sales-pitches you get nowaday… 40 hours of what, they won’t tell you exactly. It’s a number without any real context.

      How many lines of spoken dialog… doesn’t matter if it’s all terribly insipid dialog in a dull and terrible plot.

      Sure, there are certain limits where you take notice. “Only 4 hours gameplay” would probably prompt a lot of people to question what exactly they’re buying. “An A4 page of text-only dialog” isn’t going to sell you anything.

      Older games had 120 hours or whatever (I think that’s the length BG2 was said to be), so they’re selling us a shorter game as if that’s going to impress us (or hoping we don’t remember)? Is this a 8.5 out of 10 game, or a 9 out of 10 game? Does this shampoo make my hair 95% glossier than brand X?

    • Archonsod says:

      “Older games had 120 hours or whatever (I think that’s the length BG2 was said to be), so they’re selling us a shorter game as if that’s going to impress us”

      I finished BG2 in about 40 hours or so. After the first run you can finish it considerably quicker too.

      Agree with the point though, saying a game has X hours of content is meaningless without defining what that content entails. If I load up BG2 on a spare PC now and simply leave it running for a year I don’t think I’d be right to claim it’s a game of 8765 hours.

    • Kadayi says:

      ‘Recycled dungeons much?’

      Recycled locations maybe, but certainly not recycled missions.

      Sure unfortunate, but game development in this day and age of multi-platform releases has to accommodate the limitations of the weakest link in the chain and that’s the 360 at present. Developers have no guarantee of a hard drive to install game files to, and going beyond the standard 1 DVD for a game size means they fall foul of Microsofts hefty multi-disc licensing charges.

    • TheTingler says:

      It’s close to one of the game’s biggest flaws. There’s only one type of mansion, one type of basement, one type of cavern, all of which you’ll visit multiple times with very little changes made. Considering the lack of locations in the game anyway, I felt utterly ripped off by this. It was padding, and not even subtle padding.

  3. Pollo says:

    - No tactical view
    - Enemy reinforcements dropping out of the sky (you think you fight 4 enemies, only to discover 4 more suddenly rushing at you.)
    - Horrible UI (console owner must love it)
    - Fully voiced protagonist and the dialog wheel — I prefer my silent DA:O char and a richer dialog choices.
    - Simplified inventory
    - Bland companions
    - Bland setting
    - Voice acting (while it’s not bad, it simply cannot compare to amazing voice acting done in DA:O).

    • Hardtarget says:

      saying the companions are bland or that the voice acting is bland means you must have played some other than than I did…. Varric in particular is fantastic and the various companion quests are all quite well done.

    • John Walker says:

      Yes – beyond Aveline’s somnambulistic drone, the voice acting is really superb. Varric and Merrill especially. My next planned piece on this game is one of making all the cruellest decisions all the way through, and Merrill makes this a heartbreaking experiment.

    • Hardtarget says:

      John, I think that it’s super interesting, and I’ve heard this from a few people on other sites, that you did not really enjoy the game but are already paying it through a second time and plan to play through it a 3rd time. The game must be good enough for you to play through it 3 times that the super negative tone in the article can’t be as negative as it seems.

      I think you make a lot of good points but overall I had a lot of fun with DA2 and comparing it to Awakenings (which was a great expansion pack) does it a disservice.

      Should it have actually been called Dragon Age: Kirkwall? Yes, absolutely. but is it a fully fledged game? yes as well.

    • John Walker says:

      It’s my job to play the game. And my second time is the meanness attempt, because I want to understand what will really change as a consequence of that. Were it not my job, I’d move onto a new game now.

    • Hardtarget says:

      well fine!

      as an aside Aveline really grew on me by the end of the game, I even started to like her voice. I dunno what that says about me.

    • Archonsod says:

      Aveline’s voice never bothered me. It stands out somewhat because she’s flatter toned than the somewhat plummy Hawke’s but I didn’t think it sounded terrible. It was the Oirish Dalish I didn’t get on with.

      I wonder how much that would be influenced by the player’s own linguistic background though.

    • Kadayi says:

      You know the more you dig into the dialogue system the more interesting it gets. Figuring that the prologue stuff kind of established a template for your character I did three short playthoughs up to around year one. Making sure that each character was polite humorous or stern accordingly. One thing I found interesting was that in each case, sometimes NPCs initial dialogues were different for me before I’d even gotten into actual dialogue choices, as well as how I dealt with people. If generally you are a smartarse, then your general dialogue is always coloured smartarse. It’s been a while since I played it, but I’m fairly sure ME2 didn’t operate like that.

    • Archonsod says:

      It didn’t. The only thing comparable in ME2 was the Renegade / Paragon system, since some interrupts required you already had a given rating to appear.

      It is a brilliant system though, it’s just surprising it’s taken this long for anyone to think of it.

    • President Weasel says:

      The romance sub-plot between Aveline and the guard really changed my opinion of the character. It showed her as human rather than a guard-bot, and (I think) implied that one of the reasons the character was a bit wooden is that she was emotionally closed off. (Or possibly her voice actor picked that part of the recording session to up her game, or perhaps I am just imagining a change in her voice acting towards expressing a bit more genuine emotion, because I was feeling some genuine emotion towards a companion other than irritation, for a change).

      As for the ending, it gave every sign of being hammered into the square hole despite all of the round decisions the player might have taken before. Support the mages at every turn, speak out against the templars and their boss, and the anti-templar conspiracists will still attack you, despite you being
      1) an avowed supporter of their cause
      2) the second most powerful figure in Kirkwall and the only one with a chance of taking power
      3) the most terrifying bad ass the Free Marches have ever seen

      Then when it all kicks off, if you choose the mages side, the chief mage decides that after speaking out against blood magic all game, after taking a stand against Meredith for suspecting blood magic everywhere, after saying it was too dangerous to use… he’s going to use blood magic, thus proving Meredith at least partly right.
      Worse, he is going to do it right in the middle of his allies, with no enemies in sight, abandoning any kind of narrative sense in favour of a “hey, we should put a mini boss before they fight the big baddie at the end!”

      bah.
      I did still enjoy the game despite my constant nagging dissatisfaction, and I entirely agree that if they’d put anything other than “2″ on it I would have almost certainly enjoyed it more.

    • vagabond says:

      I’ve had a number of people tell me about the dialog morphing to conform to your good/bad/smartarse choices. If this is true on as large a scale as I have been led to believe it exists, it bothers me for two reasons:

      a) They can track minor personality based stuff and have the game adjust accordingly, but they can’t actually alter conversations based on whether you’re a mage or not, or whether you use blood magic. You know, binary stuff that determines whether the plot makes sense or not…

      b) It feels to me like resources that would have been better spent on not having identi-kit dungeons. (I’m willing to accept that this may well be irrelevant if there is a permanent staff of voice/plot people who would have been twiddling their thumbs if it wasn’t done)

    • Gvaz says:

      I agree with everything in this post.
      The only good character was Varric, Fenris, then Avaline in that order. I mean in both character and VA. The rest of them were absolutely awful in characterization and almost flat. Sure there were decent VAs, but that doesn’t make up for the writing.
      In fact, party banter was ten times better than the actual interactions.

      Guess who banter was written by? Interns.

  4. Stardog says:

    It’s amazing how horrible every one of those screenshots is. Maybe the red guy can get a pass mark.

    I played the demo and found it awful. The battles weren’t easy to manage and it just felt b-rate.

    • DrGonzo says:

      I don’t think the screenshots really do it justice. It’s a much prettier game than the first. While there are less environments, they are more interesting ones.

    • Wulf says:

      It was the setting that got me. I just don’t want to go to medievalandia again. I did try, but… it’s not something that I can stomach. There are so many interesting things you can do with fantasy as I’ve noted elsewhere, this is something that RPG masters of old and Japanese developers have excelled at (I’m still fond of Wild ARMS 3 for being a crazy Wild West RPG, with magic-wielding native americans). And knowing this… I just can’t go back to ye olde Englande of yore. I can’t do it!

      Others can, and more power to them. I hope they enjoy it and have fun. But it’s gotten to the point where it’s a painful experience for me, and there are many lesser forms of discomfort I’d prefer to endure than to try to force my way through a setting that I find no passion, emotion, or inspiration in. And I want to be left inspired and emotional by my games. That’s important for me. But I get that that’s not what the majority want, I totally get that.

      I’m just happy that there are games on the horizon though which are designed to appeal to me. So… Dragon Age III will happen eventually, it’s bound to, and lots of people will enjoy that, but by that time there are likely games with more interesting settings that I’ll be playing. Hint: Golem battlesuit.

    • Ultra Superior says:

      I was disgusted with the demo.

      I loved DA:O and I liked all previous bioware games. The trailer campaign and new art direction felt wrong (fantasy sims) but still I was prepared to give them money and enjoy simplified DA:O.

      But I just couldn’t –
      I tried the demo…
      I wasn’t just disappointed with the SEQUEL, I was disgusted with the overall game – even if it was a completely independent game called “Dragon Empire: Quest for Immortal Sword” I’d still hate it based on: terrible combat, UI, story telling, characters, corridor gameplay, weird graphics that feels like everything is props made from paper.

      Sequel or not – this game shows, that something has fundamentally changed in the bioware – the fact they greenlighted such a product means they’re on a wrong path as a studio.

      (Probably a good path economically – as producing this game must’ve been way cheaper than previous opuses, but their goodwill went down with this game.)

    • Jeremy says:

      I will say this: the demo literally shows the worst moments of the game. The worst characters, the worst dialogue and the worst aspect of the fighting. Having played through the game once and working on a second time, it’s kind of weird that they created the demo that they did in the first place.

    • kongming says:

      Yes Wulf, I too am sick of “ye olde Englande of yore” fantasy settings. Oh wait, none of those exist.

      If you think that any fantasy game actually resembles or is half as interesting as real medieval England (or France, or Spain, or Germany, or Italy, or…), you’re dead wrong. I would love a historical fantasy game that actually convincingly portrayed the Middle Ages, it would be a breath of fresh air in this swamp of renfaire caricatures we call PC roleplaying games.

  5. Coins says:

    These are all great points, and very true. I often wonder if I could have prevented several things ( which I won’t mention here because of spoilers), but from this write-up I assume I can’t. I think the biggest disappointment for me was the supposedly changing city, which didn’t. I would’ve loved to see the city evolve based on your choices, but it didn’t at all. Even the two ‘war city’ themes were exactly the same.
    Which brings me to the second point, as I think mister Walker has only reviewed the storyline problems, and not the technical noes. I still liked the game, though it should indeed be named Kirkwall, not 2.

    EDIT: Am I the only one who -likes- LadyHawke’s voice?

    • CaiusCaligula says:

      I liked LadyHawke’s voice. In these kinds of games, I’m usually playing the snarky bitch anyway.

      Personally, though, the only problem I had with the game was at the very end of things. I didn’t like the ending as I thought everything was kind of handwaved (seducing any of the characters– and it was pretty subtle for me– seemed almost tangential, as did the relationships), meaning that nothing I did with my companions mattered, and the act-end bosses royally hacked me off. Particularly the act two boss, which I fought without any of my party members. I did, however, get a sense of accomplishment from finishing the fights. The sequel hook made that all feel futile, though.

    • Archonsod says:

      “I didn’t like the ending as I thought everything was kind of handwaved ”

      To be fair, a wizard did indeed do it.

  6. Theoban says:

    It’s a shame because I really adored most of the original Dragon Age (I didn’t really mind the deep roads either) and this just doesn’t sound like it’s been wrought of the same iron. I do still want to play it but this is defintely now a ‘wait until it’s a bit cheaper’ sort of purchase.

    I’ll probably enjoy it well enough but the original Dragon Age was brilliant for most of it, rarely have I had a game present me with choices where I’ve had to back away from the computer and have a think about what I’m going to do. It’s hard for anything to live up to that really.

    I guess what I’m saying is; ‘oh well, Witcher 2 then’

    • Grygus says:

      The biggest problem is that this isn’t a role-playing game at all. Oh sure, the game lets you choose the mood of your dialogue, but it’s not reliably the sentiment you really meant to express and (more importantly) it doesn’t much matter which one you choose, anyway. And yes, the game does have a few agonizingly hard decisions for you… it’s a shame that it doesn’t matter one bit which way you end up going. Of course, you do get to choose a side at the end of the game, but both sides are so relentlessly and pointlessly self-destructive that if I could have simply walked away from the whole thing instead of fighting the final battle, I would have. It isn’t that it was “dark” or “gritty,” it was that both sides deserved to lose. Maybe I would have stayed if the game let me kill them all.

      And that’s where most of the value is. This is a pretty great RPG in the Diablo sense of endless, repetitive, boring combat, picking talents and playing dress-up. In fact, that’s the only way to really enjoy the game; play it like Diablo, with the story running in the background and the main event being watching your character become unbelievably powerful. THAT is well-done and by the end you are gratifyingly unbeatable. It’s a shame that I can’t take that character online to pursue some fun with friends; it would at least lend some sort of point to the proceedings.

    • Archonsod says:

      “the game lets you choose the mood of your dialogue, but it’s not reliably the sentiment you really meant to express”

      Erm, how can a system which relies on you choosing the sentiment you wish the character to express not reliably let you express that sentiment? Particularly when it’s divided into three.

    • suibhne says:

      Maybe because dividing all human sentiment into three buckets is a bit broad-brushed, meaning that there will almost always be some disconnect (ranging from minor to massive) between your intended sentiment and the particular approach chosen by Bioware writers to represent the totality of Bucket #2?

    • Grygus says:

      Exactly; for example, I once chose an option that said, “I take responsibility,” which I chose intending to take the heat off my party member, only to hear Hawke say, “it’s totally my fault I let the party member screw this up,” throwing the party member under the bus – the exact opposite of my intent.

  7. Hypatian says:

    Like the previous WIT, I’m amazed at how diametrically opposed my opinions are from Walker’s. What he hates, I love. Which matches well with my experiences talking with other people: It seems about half the people think the new approach is great, it increases their sense of immersion in the story, and is overall more fun and deeper. The other half think the new approach is awful, can’t identify with any of the characters at all, and can’t enjoy the game much at all.

    Since I’m in the “loved it!” camp, I really hope this doesn’t make BioWare back off from taking chances with further experiments in the narrative structure of their games.

    (Well. Okay, the one thing everybody agrees on is that the “we’re going to use this same map five times, but different doors will be locked each time and you’ll come in from a different entrance” thing is wretched. :)

    • FunkyBadger3 says:

      I enjoyed the combat much mor this time round, a shame they didn’t go the whole hog and turn it into something Bayonetta-esque, but so much esle was lazy and horrible. Chiefly the plotting and storytelling.

    • Kdansky says:

      As for reuse of maps.

      Think of it like this: They obviously cut corners to save money and development time there. And it was by far the best spot to choose for that. I’d rather have less maps than less interesting combat, plot, dialogue choices, characters or visual quality instead of quantity.

    • Gvaz says:

      As a sequel to DA:O, there was almost nothing redeeming about this game. I’d rather eat feces than play this game again.

  8. The Army of None says:

    I completely agree with you, John, both on the good bits (the inter-companion chats were pretty well written, for example) and the bad bits (the utter lack of any sort of unifying plot or real choice).

  9. Schaulustiger says:

    John, you have probably become my favorite RPS writer and this is why. It’s an incredibly well-written piece and from what I read (and play), it seems that Bioware didn’t quite get what made the first part so very, very enjoyable.
    In ten years or so, I will talk about Dragon Age: Origins and Baldur’s Gate in the same sentence and I’ll most likely not remember DA2, but I’ll reserve my final judgement until I have completed it.

  10. Lacero says:

    Is it just me that would like these games more if they were 4-5 hours long and had no combat?

    • JFS says:

      No. However I’d probably prefer them being about 10 hours long and having some combat inserted where it really mattered. Believable combat. And story and chatter and characters with personalities. Like, closer to a good book, but with added interactivity. That’d be nice. I think DA:O got that quite right in some spots, bar the endless mook fights, which were fun sometimes, but not always.

  11. orta says:

    +1 on the agreement

  12. Plinglebob says:

    I agree with your final comments. It felt more like an expansion then a sequal, and a poor one at that.

    My biggest problem with the game was that the design felt lazy. While I liked the idea of having bigger stories for your companions, it seemed like the only reason they did that was so they had an excuse to keep you in a maximum of 4 locations so they didn’t have to build many maps. This was forced home to me when I went to the same cave for every side quest with different doors closed off and the Minimap still showing the same large cave network every time. Please Bioware, give us the scope of DA:O with the companion depth of DA2 in your next game.

  13. michaelfeb16 says:

    I think your conclusion is a perfect summary of my feelings on this game. If it had been DA:K instead of DA2, I probably would have loved this game.

  14. Diziet Sma says:

    For my few pence worth forgiving it’s odd 3 year comas as you quite accurately put it I thoroughly enjoyed the game having played it through once, especially a twist I only later realised not everybody else got to experience (unless they followed a guide I suppose). Thoroughly enjoyable and soured only slightly by expectations being so high. I quite enjoyed the focus on one character leading up to something big, which I assume will be dragon age 3, rather than the large scale conflicts of the original.
    I also found myself massively disliking a companion for the first time, Fenris really got on my tits. Merrill and Varric were excellent as characters and their voice acting.

  15. MrEvilGuy says:

    It’s too Americanized.

  16. Spinks says:

    I thin Aveline is one of the better characters they’ve written and if you dismissed her straight away, you’re missing out. She’s a proper lawful good paladin type with a strong moral code but who isn’t an idiot about it and knows when to look the other way. And a strong woman who wasn’t put in just as a love interest and isn’t really supposed to be conventionally attractive anyway, which is always good to see.
    I kind of agree about the romance dialogue. However hard they try, it was written to be said by a male character and would probably have felt less predatory coming from one.

    I also thought femHawke’s plummy posh girl voice was a bit offputting.

    • John Walker says:

      I did have her in my party a lot, whenever Merrill was getting a bit too much, and I found her always insufferable. Especially struggling through her ghastly getting a boyfriend plot.

      Also, I don’t really understand the thing about her not being a love interest. Since I’m constantly given the option to try to smuttily seduce her, I’m not sure how there’s a distinction.

    • DrGonzo says:

      I’ve been enjoying having her in my party so far, haven’t finished it yet though. She seems to be a reasonable and intelligent person who dislikes mages, possibly the only one in the game. So I like having her around.

    • Lars Westergren says:

      I’m also an Aveline fan, she’s one of the better Bioware characters in my opinion. She has a face with character, I think she looks good, but she is not conventional Hollywood pretty. Liked her voice acting. I haven’t finished the game, but she seems to go through some stages of character growth too.

    • Nichael says:

      Aveline was one of my favorite characters in DA2. She seemed like a realistic and reasonable woman in a party full of the typical RPG melodrama, which made her interesting and relatable.

    • bleeters says:

      I don’t mind Aveline quite as much as some, but I have to resent the fact that she and Anders are (unless you fulfill one of their roles yourself) essentially mandatory party members once you crank up the difficulty, and yet both are tiresome and drab to have around. Origins had the same issue in some respects, but at least the two available tank characters consisted of a light-hearted humour dispenser and HK-47 in stone form.

      I happily had Alistair tag along whilst playing a sword-and-shield warrior myself, optimal setup be damned. I made myself a warrior character specifically so I could ditch Aveline.

    • Nichael says:

      I played on nightmare all the way through and only very rarely felt forced to bring a tank or healer along. Most of the time, I played with Isabella, Fenris, Varric, and my own debuff/damage mage with no healing skills.

    • TariqOne says:

      I was actually a little moved when Aveline, despite her full rivalry bar and disagreement with my stance, stuck by me at the end.

      She’s a painfully awkward person hiding behind a painfully awkward hard shell. The semiplayful barbs between her and Isabela — “Lady Man-Hands” — really endeared her to me over the 75 hours I spent on my playthrough.

      And yeah, the ending was more than a bit dumb. But the rest, including Aveline, was overall terrific.

    • Derk_Henderson says:

      I agree – Aveline really grew up on me by the end of the game (and I really didn’t like her in the beginning). It was definitely worth having her and Isabela in the same party a lot – their progression from people who simply couldn’t stand each other to good friends by the end of the game was pretty cute. Also, Isabela’s “Oh, take a hint and bend her over a basin” during the romance quest was hysterical.

    • malkav11 says:

      In act 1 and 2 you can flirt with her some, but she’s not one of the possible romance options. She and Donnic are a thing. And I really liked her, personally. Aveline, Varric and Merrill were my companions throughout the vast majority of the game, not because they did anything I particularly required in combat (Merrill in particular never really came into her own for me in combat), but because they were easily my favorite characters. Aveline’s a bit closed off, but she’s sensible, motivated, good hearted and (in act 2 and 3) having the Captain of the City Guard tagging along with you is a nice bonus. Varric, of course, is consistently a hoot. And Merrill’s so daffy and cute that I really hated how her personal quest played out. (It would be a bit like how I’d feel about Anders if I actually liked DA2′s version of Anders, which I can’t imagine anyone actually doing.)

    • Archonsod says:

      “I played on nightmare all the way through and only very rarely felt forced to bring a tank or healer along. Most of the time, I played with Isabella, Fenris, Varric, and my own debuff/damage mage with no healing skills”

      Yeah, you don’t need a healing mage or a tank. You’ve got plenty of pots for healing and a buff mage can turn virtually anyone into a tank. Fenris can also do a decent job of tanking if specced for it too, or you can avoid the necessity of tanking altogether via the threat control capabilities of rogues.

      You can pretty much work with any party configuration in fact, providing you adapt your playing style to match.

  17. Yosharian says:

    Why does nobody point out that the skill trees are VASTLY improved from the original?

    For me this was a major point. I enjoyed combat immensely – everyone says it’s less tactical than its predecessor but has everyone forgotten how piss-poor the combat trees were in Origins?

    Everything else is shite, though.

    • D3xter says:

      I will agree with you that the Skill trees are an improvement over what DA:O had (because they were horrible), but that doesn’t translate to better combat… I found the combat considerably worse and not tactical at all… just a chore at some point… they also removed most of the good parts from Origins like the spell-combos and replaced it with that “class-combo” BS and there’s a lot less active skills… as a 2H-warrior I had like 3-4 Active Skills till the very end of the game I had to basically use over and over again. Almost every single MMO I’ve played in the past few years had a (imo) better and more involved combat than DA2 and no… dropping 4-5 enemies on your mages while you’re not looking isn’t enhancing difficulty or tactical at all…

    • Yosharian says:

      Spell combos in DA:O were either shit or horribly overpowered… uh, Storm of the Century anyone? Paralysis Glyph combo?

      The stagger/disorient/brittle mechanic is pretty damn awesome. One of the few things that’s actually good about the game. (although the bonus damage is WAY too much)

    • Chesterton says:

      Completely agree with you. If we could take DA2′s skill trees & combat (minus the waves of enemies) & art style mixed with DAO’s story, scope & narrative I’d be happy with DA3.

    • Nichael says:

      I completely prefer cross class combos of DA2 to the spell combos of DA:O. It was great having to mix and match the abilities of different characters for what would always be an interesting pay off. The spell combos of DA:O could all be performed with one character which limited the tactical depth.

    • malkav11 says:

      I could see holding that opinion as a warrior or rogue Hawke, as their trees did kinda suck in DA:O. The mage trees are a substantial downgrade from the first game, though, both in breadth and depth. Instead of getting to pick a new spell every level for a wide variety of potent offensive, defensive and utility magic, all of it offering distinct tactical value, you get to pick maybe 8 or 9 spells over your whole career, then invest a bunch of levels in making them actually useful. In some cases they still don’t reach the potency they had in the original game. And I haven’t actually counted, but it sure looks to me like DA2 has at most 50% as many spells as base DA:O (not even Awakening, which added a bunch). Which would be a bit more tolerable if they were at least significantly composed of new spells, but they aren’t. There’s the Force Mage specialty tree (which seemed largely useless to me, aside from the antiknockdown passive), and maybe 2 or 3 others, tops.

      I’m also miffed by the existence of several trees in the warrior and rogue classes that start with branches into multiple, mutually exclusive sustained modes that you nonetheless have to invest in all of in order to progress to the useful stuff. And the inability to spec NPCs in other than their arbitrary pigeonholes.

    • Yosharian says:

      Ah well I’d agree that some of the mages are lacking in trees, obviously we’re talking about Merrill’s lack of Creation and so on.

  18. TillEulenspiegel says:

    It’s a game set in a single city, with nowhere else to go

    When people were complaining about how DA2 was restricted to one city, that didn’t bother me so much. A city can be a huge, huge place. An urban fantasy game set in the five boroughs of New York could be *massive*.

    Or even a well-developed fictional city like King’s Landing or Lankhmar.

    Unfortunately, a city can also feel very small. Like Kirkwall.

    • Bhazor says:

      I really do like the idea of an rpg focused on one small town but filled with depth and detail. Small but deep settings where every peon on the street has a name and role in the town or story. Where every door can be opened and every building explored. Where small decisions matter because you know the people who will suffer for your choice.

      But when almost every single door is painted on and the streets are littered with nameless one line npcs who never move from the spot the phrase “Missed Opportunity” doesn’t even come close.

    • Nichael says:

      I hope someday another RPG comes along and really perfects the intimate setting that DA2 totally missed the mark on. DA2 would’ve been amazing with an evolving Kirkwall that had depth. The Kirkwall that shipped with DA2 makes me think the game was a complete rush job.

    • Nick says:

      Amn was bigger and more varied… and there was almost a whole other games worth of content NOT in Amn.

    • Kdansky says:

      Captain Obvious to the rescue! Sigil in Planescape:Torment anyone? But then again, PST is on a different plane. Hah!

  19. Sardukar says:

    I’m enjoying DA2 more than DA 1. That said, the recycled areas are making me a little nauseous. Not sure why.
    I found DA1 tedious, though. Perhaps if I hadn’t recently replayed Baldur’s Gate 2. The DA1 writing was predictable and bland. I like the intimate setting and localization represented in DA2 writing.

    The combat in DA2 is more fun for me, on Hard, than the combat in DA1 was on any setting.

    The companions are much more interesting to me, even Aveline. I found Alistair to be a somewhat whiny prat. I miss Zevran and Shale, of course.

    Mind you, I haven’t finished DA2 and if I see any more fights like that Rock Wraith or have to kill my way through that same cavern with the inexplicable water-wheel style half-finished construction, I’m done.

    • Archonsod says:

      Only one more at the end of the second act, but it’s avoidable depending on how you handle it. The boss fights were pretty dire though.

    • Jeremy says:

      The Rock Wraith is easily the worst fight in the game, I actually ended up kiting him with Varric and getting him stuck in a pillar, then shooting him, stealthing if he warped, getting him stuck again and then shoot… repeat for 15 minutes. Worst thing ever. I didn’t even feel bad cheating the game, because it was such a horribly designed encounter it didn’t deserve my tactics.

    • Archonsod says:

      It’s a design flaw really. They were going for a pattern boss at that point which would work. If they’d scripted the AI to play along rather than simply stand around like lemmings or embracing death.

      I wouldn’t say it was the worst fight in the game though. That prize either goes to the Qunari duel or the High Dragon. Although neither of those are forced upon you, which I guess counts for something.

    • Dave Toulouse says:

      I was beginning to think I was the only one who enjoy more DA2 than DA:O.

      Of course I play those kind of games while relaxing with a beer keeping the difficulty level at normal (specially when I get to the whisky phase of the night…)

      There are times I get back to the game not quite remembering what I did to get there. That means I’ll get to play a 2nd time and it will still feel like a new game! :)

    • TariqOne says:

      I also found the story and writing in DA2 to be superior to that of DA:O. It’s a smaller, tighter, more modern, character-driven affair. And with its sweeping temporal scope — events unfolding over a decade — at the end I really felt that I had been a part of a journey with the characters.

      DA:O was much more of the generic go-save-the-world storyline that so often fails to convey the scope and punch it wishes to. It felt quite routine in the main, despite its many flashes of inspiration.

  20. ablears says:

    Excellent, thoughtful analysis – the kind Rich McCormick has nightmares about.

  21. Michus says:

    Totally agree.

    I enjoyed Awakenings more than DA2 (DA:K morelike)

  22. Om says:

    I don’t know if I’ve changed or they did, but Bioware as a company have lost me. My tastes may have matured (and in hindsight my preference for KotOR2 over the original may be considered a breaking point) but the increasingly simplistic game design and plotting does not do any favours. I just don’t see any reason to be interested in their later games; which is a pity since I’d been an avid fan since BG introduced me to RPGs

    • vandinz says:

      They’re still great games. ME2 is WAY better than one in my opinion. It’s just DA2 seemed more limited than I’d hoped. I was desperate to get away from Kirkwall and explore the land around, as in the first one. I hope they read people’s comments and take it what we say for the future, if they carry on this way then I’m with you. At the moment, I’m still loving their work.

    • Om says:

      I’m not saying that these are necessarily *bad* games, because clearly millions of people would disagree, but that they’re just not for me any more. Perhaps its inevitable that I’d outgrow them, in the same way I moved from Civ to Europa Universalis, but I can’t help but feel that Bioware made it easy by recycling the same old tropes and design decisions, game after game.

      I guess that I’m just disappointed that Bioware want me to be the Champion or the Grey Warden or whatever instead of that scared kid from BG trying to find out who murdered his dad. I’ll not get that experience again from this company

    • Lilliput King says:

      “I guess that I’m just disappointed that Bioware want me to be the Champion or the Grey Warden or whatever instead of that scared kid from BG trying to find out who murdered his dad.”

      Totally with you there.

      Still, and I don’t mean to nitpick, but are you talking about the KoTOR2 that casts the player as a being of such ludicrous awesome that he is required to transcend this existence in order to fight an evil of such malign magnitude that it cannot even be conceived of by lesser minds? It’s not exactly the thinking man’s RPG. It might even be the greatest level of gamer-as-superhero wish-fulfilment I’ve ever come across.

    • kongming says:

      ITT, Lilliput King demonstrates that he didn’t “get” KotOR2.

  23. vandinz says:

    The fact is this, if this was a new game without any preconceptions, most would love it. It’s a great game, brilliant infact but it’s NOT as good as DA1. Because of the console kiddies? Maybe, but I still feel had they allowed more exploration it’d be looked upon as a very good sequal to the first. The RPG is not for the majority of console owners so don’t make such a game for them. Leave that to PC gamers that are willing to sit and read, listen and tinker with the game to get the best from it.

    • JFS says:

      DA:O plays quite well on consoles, thank you very much, apart from the improvable combat controls, that is. I think RPS doesn’t need to condescend on consoles, making them the scapegoats for bad or sub-par game design. We are above that. At least we should be.

    • vandinz says:

      I’m not making them a scapegoat but it’s there for all to see. It seems that any games being pushed heavily on the consoles are dumbed down. Maybe because of the controls? I don’t know, but it happens. It may be because people on consoles want a more pick up and play game and you don’t get that with RPGs. I agree with you though, using that as an excuse if not good enough, I’m not using it though, just statiing what I see, or at least think I see. It’s the developers that seem to have this mindset.

  24. omgwtflolbbqbye says:

    In terms of narrative, I think “Dragon Age 2″ has a genuinely interesting premise and storyline, but it does a pretty poor job of telling it; conversely, I think “Origins” had a generic premise and storyline, but it manage to tell it extremely well.

    I agree about the “time-jumps” being used ineffectively too. If the game didn’t give me a 5 second cut scene saying ‘x’ years passed between each act, I could have believed that the entire story took place in the span of 1 year. Hell, I sort of suspect that the 10 year structure is just an excuse to sneak in more DLC content in the guise of ‘lost years/episodes’.

    As for gameplay, I did 2 playthroughs, first on ‘Normal’ difficulty and the 2nd on ‘Hard’. Normal was a total cakewalk, and while the fights were viscerally fun, I never felt challenged and pretty much hack and slashed through the game without giving a second thought to strategy or companions. The only time I felt challenged was fighting the ridiculously tough Act 2 boss and the optional Act 3 boss.

    On the “hard” difficulty though, I found the gameplay to be much more balanced, and had to actually put some thought into my encounters and come up with actual strategies. It basically felt like the ‘normal’ difficulty in “Origins” and made the game more enjoyable. I think it should have been the default normal difficulty.

    • Nichael says:

      Your first paragraph is an excellent criticism of both games. DA:O really did take a bland story and execute it masterfully. DA2 did the opposite in pretty much all regards except the companions-who were just as good as DA:O’s great companions.

  25. D3xter says:

    You sound a bit diplomatic in your disappointment at the start, as if the fact that it’s “Dragon Age” is hold you back properly tearing it a new one :P

    Anyway I agree with a lot of it and made fairly similar points in my review: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.271648-Dragon-Age-2-A-Review
    Although I was also a lot more disappointed by the technical side of the game, which (aside of the character art) was a lot worse than its Prequel and the companions (not that they were all great, but the way they were intertwined with the city and story) were one of the very few saving graces for the game.

  26. quantumcatphd says:

    SPOILERS!
    A mental exercise I used was “what would happen if the Champion never existed?” This is just my imagining, YMMV.
    Act 1: Deep Roads expedition doesn’t happen, or happens with different sponsors. No one really cares either way.
    Act 2: Qunari uprising takes place, considering Meredith and Orsino were hot on your heels anyway, they probably could have taken the big bad out had you not been there.
    Act 3: Anders blows up the chantry, mages and templar fight. One could argue the lyrium made Meredith go insane, which I would agree with. Still, I don’t think it was ever out of character for her to call for the right of annulment even when sane. The main difference would be you’re not there to put her down afterward.
    I just felt like a spectator, where nothing I did really mattered–not even just “the illusion of choice”, but that I was just a killing machine that happened to do the dirty work at critical times and places.

    • Archonsod says:

      That’s a problem with it being obvious sequel fodder. A more interesting question though would be what the important decisions Hawke makes in each Act are. I very much doubt it has anything to do with the Qunari in Act II for example.

    • quantumcatphd says:

      I read once a key to good story telling is the start the story as late as possible. I would have loved to play the story described in the aftermath. Mages rebelling? World ablaze? Yes, please! DA:K feels like it could have been done just as well as a prequel expansion or DLC to that game.

  27. Farkeman says:

    biggest fail imo :
    -stupid dialogue wheel , you pick something that might sound awesome and hawke just spits out something cheesy and lame , and 3 stupid options ir just lame , i mean its made for extremely stupid people.
    and why hawke had to be voiced ? it just ruins my immersion …

    Why would you fix something that is not broken BIOWARE ? why ?

    • FunkyBadger3 says:

      This same system worked brilliantly in Maffect2, better to ask why they implemented it so badly this time round.

      Also, lack of origins was an atrocious idea.

    • malkav11 says:

      The very similar system in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 had very similar issues.

    • vandinz says:

      I sort of agree with the wheel options. Sometimes what is written on the wheel is nothing like what he actually says. That pissed me off.

  28. skraeling says:

    I’m just disappointed that they never seem to explain the nature of dragon age. Is it different than human age? I don’t know since every character seems pretty tight lipped about the subject.
    The developers, right off the bat, should have asked themselves the following questions: “At what age is a dragon mature enough to be allowed to drink alcohol? What should the dragon age of consent be? Is dragon aged cheese better with wine or on a sandwich?”
    But they didn’t. I think that’s what went wrong.

    • Nichael says:

      I feel like a loser for knowing this, but “Dragon Age” refers to the name of the century that the game takes place in. Centuries in Thedas are named by the Chantry in the 99th year of the previous century. Chantry leaders typically see a sign of some sort, and name the coming 100 years after that. In the case of the Dragon Age, there was an incident with two High Dragons after people thought they were already extinct. The Dragon Age is the ninth century since Andraste started the Chantry.
      And now I know longer feel like a loser for knowing that. I am a loser for knowing that, through and through.

  29. BloatedGuppy says:

    That’s a pretty reasonable and objective summation of the game, and while I enjoyed it more than John I can’t say that anything he’s saying seems unnecessarily over the top or unfair (like some of the criticisms I’ve read).

    I am, however, completely baffled at his continued issue with the cold opening. It’s not as if In Media Res has never been encountered by anyone before. It’s even been used heavily in this medium. What’s this? I’m awake in some kind of Masoleum? I’m covered in tattoos? Who is this skull? Why should I care? What the hell kind of game is this, dropping me in the middle of the story?

    Certainly you can argue that it’s a cold opening done *badly*, but that doesn’t mean we needed 20+ hours of “Growing up Hawke” in order to be able to emotionally invest in what’s happening onscreen.

    • Archonsod says:

      The problem with the opening isn’t so much that it drops you in mid-story, but that it drops you in to a different story. There’s little characterisation of Hawke’s family done, and virtually none of the events are ever mentioned again.

      From a story perspective, you could drop the entire thing and simply put it in the codex or a cutscene without it making any difference to the rest of the narrative whatsoever (well, explaining how you come to be in possession of Flemeth’s amulet might be tricky, but apart from that). In many ways that would possibly have worked out better.

    • John Walker says:

      My issue is not that I don’t know my character’s background, a la Planescape, etc. It’s that someone I’ve just hand-crafted in the character generator is given to me with all the establishing done. It’s not like Hawke has an interesting past to uncover. It just feels like I arrived late, and don’t know why I should care about any of these people.

    • Bhazor says:

      Planescape Torment’s opening is an amnesiac waking in a bizarre world and the whole story is built around answering who he is and how he got here. A classic mystery setup.
      Dragon Age 2′s opening however is like walking into the cinema ten minutes late.
      Basically theres no narrative reason why you shouldn’t know who these characters are. There are no mysterious pasts or great revelations, no memory loss or secret destinies. It just doesn’t tell you. This is why amnesiac heroes are so popular, it gives the player a chance to discover who they are actually playing as and gives the characters an excuse to explain in game/world concepts that are common place to everyone else.

    • TariqOne says:

      IIRC, there wasn’t much between “hi Mum” and “OMG MY FAMILY’S DEAD AND I’M ON THE RUN” in the human beginning of DA:O either. It didn’t bother me at all in either game.

    • Cradok says:

      The Origin stories in DA:O took somewhere in the region of an hour, a lot of which involves conversations and the usual fetch quests, so you get plenty of time to get to know the various peoples before they all get killed and maimed in horrible ways. In DAII, your sibling gets five minutes, most of which is spent watching Darkspawn either fading into view or their corpses fading out of view again.

      I cared when the Couslands died, or when my friend got taken away and mindwiped. I didn’t care a whit about Hawke’s sibling.

    • Archonsod says:

      Not all the Origins were at that standard. The Dalish one was awful (I’m supposed to care about some random guy who’s only contribution to my life thus far is to threaten some innocent farmers?, or a clan that seems to be populated exclusively by arseholes?), the casteless Dwarven one wasn’t much cop either (hi sis! Oh, Sis has become a prostitute. Wait, which one was she again?). The City Elf one wasn’t so bad (not that I cared about the wife I’d met for all of two dialogue boxes, but the antagonist was sufficiently a bastard that it didn’t matter). Only the mage one seemed to make any halfway decent effort at anything.

    • Stitched says:

      “My issue is not that I don’t know my character’s background, a la Planescape, etc. It’s that someone I’ve just hand-crafted in the character generator is given to me with all the establishing done. It’s not like Hawke has an interesting past to uncover. It just feels like I arrived late, and don’t know why I should care about any of these people.”

      And killing them off is a poor substitute for establishing some kind of emotional attachment. If anything, it felt really ham-fisted and awkward.

  30. smi1ey says:

    Thanks for detailed and honest review. I am someone who plays these kinds of games for the immersive storyline. When the characters in the game don’t acknowledge things I’ve done, or say things that don’t make sense being spoken to a character of my class or reputation, it really pulls me out of the game. I also REALLY hate not being able to truly choose what I want to do in the game. This is one of my biggest problems with MMOs. If I’m an evil character, why would I want to defeat other evil characters? That kind of things. What’s funny about DA2, is that it’s NOT really getting a ton of bad press. The game is sitting around 8/10 on metacritic. But the USER scores, with over 2,000, are holding at around 4.4. Yikes.

    • Kadayi says:

      That 4.4 score was as a result of some 4chan inspired 0 score zerg on it because apparently some EA dude had user rated it 10 and the interwebs went balls deep crazy about it (is there any other reaction level?). Go wade through a few of the negative reviews and you’ll see by and large most of them are nebulous fluff. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think DA2 is a 10/10 game, but I wouldn’t take that user score particularly seriously.

    • Rinox says:

      That probably says a lot, ie in that professional critics will try not to let DA1′s quality get in the way of acknowledging DA2′s worth, while users/customers overall seem to be disappointed overall at the things Bioware tried to do with the game.

      I can’t blame them, I played the demo and it was just…yuk. I don’t know how they even managed to make the game look worse than the original. Thanks for the opinion John – as a fellow DA1 lover I will go on your judgement and postpone any buying of DA2 to a steam sale.

      @ Kadayi
      I don’t think anyone actually believes the game is THAT bad (4.4), I just think it’s more an expression of disappointment than an orchestrated action. Anonymity breeds exaggeration and all.

    • Nick says:

      Actually it was sitting around 4 before the Bioware guy rated it 10 and before any particularly suspect bombs took place.

    • SuaveMongrel says:

      @Kadayi You’d be terribly wrong in saying that. Firstly, the supposed “raid” never happened. David Gaider (lead writer on DA2) said it happened in a forum post long before that Bioware bloke reviewed his own game, but the reality is /v/ (the videogames section of the 4chan) is too disorganised to do such a thing.
      What happened instead was /v/ amassed a rather large collection of images taken from the forums by official Bioware employees citing a few gems like Gaider saying he rather enjoyed Twilight for its literature, one of the female writers “gigglesqueeing” and wanting to “nom” Merril’s head. Then it went into detail about how certain reviewers criticised the game yet gave it a high score. PCGamer was on there I believe. Didn’t even mention the copy and pasted dungeons.
      I’ve got the 20mb png saved with all the quotes and criticisms etc. and they spammed it all over the forums, resulting in many Biodrone fanboys getting rather upset at the somewhat valid points.

      It’s a rather interesting read, purely because the majority of people on /v/ are a fairly passionate lot about videogames.
      It’s all died down now of course.

  31. flakmonkey says:

    I really enjoyed it, which I didn’t expect. I much preferred DA:O to either of the ME games, just because of its rich lore and enormous world, but something about Dragon Age 2 really kept me interested.

    I think the most likely reason for this is the characters. I fell for Merrill just like I fell for Tali, Varric was like a more caustic and rugged Alistair, Isabela made me giggle a few times before totally throwing me by running off, I genuinely felt sad when I lost Bethany to the Circle, and was overjoyed when I could put her back into my party for the final battle. Avleine and Fenris felt like the least involved of my companions, but I think this was because Aveline had an important job outside of following me around, and could always be relied upon, both in story and in combat. I enjoyed my rivalry with Fenris, as it led to some interesting debates about mages and an incredibly satisfying end where I got to cave his whiny, ungrateful fucking head in. Anders was the only character I had a real problem with, as he never seemed happy, even though I sided with the mages at every opportunity.

    I also came to love the city, even though I spent all my time there; becoming familiar with the banter of the NPCs I’d walk past, and sitting in the Hanged Man just to listen to the awesome folk tune that plays while you are there. I don’t know. The combat was really fun and slashy though. Stab stab.

    • Kadayi says:

      I rogued it on my first play through and had Fenris, Anders and Merill as my main companions and that got pretty interesting during the second and third acts with Anders raging on Merill and Fenris raging on both of them. ;)

    • Spinks says:

      Anders reminded me uncannily of one of my first ‘real’ boyfriends, who was pretty smart, had really annoying political opinions, annoyed all my friends, and I was too into him to care. I mean, if the RL guy had been a mage and liked cats and gone psycho instead of joining the young conservatives and been blonde, it would have been uncanny ….

  32. Deano2099 says:

    I do wonder if part of it is the lack of that sense of discovery. Not played it much yet, but recently went through Awakenings and it really bored me. Partly as what I loved about DA:O was discovering the way the world worked. It was a bit off-kilter from your average RPG. All the Templar/Mage and Dwarf stuff was brilliant. But we already know all that now. We know the basics of how the world works. That discovery doesn’t come back.

  33. Vrokolos says:

    Have to agree with pretty much everything you wrote

  34. drewski says:

    Careful, John. If you keep writing such thoughtful, intelligent pieces, Gillen’s going to have you assassinated.

  35. Jimbo says:

    I agree with most everything you said. I found the combat relatively entertaining on Hard though – seems like instead of Normal and Hard they should have called the settings Action & Tactical depending on how you wanted the game to play (Nightmare could be called Afterthought). The Rock Wraith and High Dragon required a fair bit of effort on my part.

    The game has plenty of problems, most of which are well known by now and I think can be summed up as a blatant disregard for suspension of disbelief. Overall I probably enjoyed playing DA2 more than I did DA:O though. Origins was a higher quality product (clearly a lot more time and effort went into Origins), but the main story was just way too LOTR for me. I clocked 58 hours on my first DA2 playthrough.

    I agree that this game should have been called Dragon Age: Kirkwall (or similar), but I don’t think any of these games should ever be numbered. They should follow the Elder Scrolls approach where each game can stand on its own two feet and where new players can jump in at any time, because each game is a contained story.

    By keeping each game at least somewhat detached from the others they can give you the option to make important choices within an individual storyline without those choices sending the whole world off in crazy directions which they then have to retcon (the outro to DA2 implies that my Warden, who is actually dead, was simply ‘missing’, which was a disappointing note to end the game on). The events of DA2 have such far reaching consequences that they are forced to give you no influence over them at all.

    Just for the sake of saying something positive – Kate Mulgrew is great.

    • Archonsod says:

      I think the problem with calling it DA:Kirkwall is that the whole thing is a pretty obvious set up for DA III.

    • Jimbo says:

      You’re right, but I hope they just end up using it as a rebalancing of the world, rather than as a direct setup for DA3. I really don’t want the next game to be about putting the Chantry back together or playing as somebody else trying to find Hawke to put the Chantry back together. Maybe have the Qunari take the opportunity of the broken Chantry to launch a new invasion of Thedas.

      I also just don’t think this ‘continuing story over multiple games’ approach is working out very well commercially for Bioware. They’re too hamstrung by requiring the player to have played the previous games.

    • Archonsod says:

      The ending mentions both the Grey Warden and Hawke, so I suspect III is going to tie it together somehow (and my bet is Flemeth, she being the only thing the two seem to have in common).

      I’m not sure about the carrying on though. In many ways I think they’re more constrained in having to allow for players who are new to the series at that point, which means you pretty much have to design each game as both a stand alone story while at the same time a continuation of the previous one.

    • Zenicetus says:

      The problem I had with trying to ramp up to Hard to make the combat more tactical, is that I was still given situations that were too repetitive — repetitive clumps of enemies, repetitive environments that I’ve already been in.

      I ended up doing the same thing Walker did in the article; I switched difficulty to Casual about 2/3 of the way in, because I couldn’t stand wading through all that cookie-cutter combat and environments to complete the story at a slower pace. And then I find out that my decisions make no difference anyway. I played a Rogue who tried to protect the Mages, and had the same reaction about feeling forced to kill almost every story-significant Mage I ran into.

    • noodlecake says:

      Really? More repetitive than genlock, hurlock, hurlock, genlock, hurlock emissary, hurlock, genlock, hurlock, hurlock, genlock, hurlock? There were tons of different enemies in comparison with origins.

    • malkav11 says:

      Perhaps you played a different DA2 than I did. The one I played omitted swathes of enemy types that Origins had in its bestiary (to say nothing of the new foes encountered in Awakening, also absent), including genlocks. Sure had a lot of shades, though. Shades, corpses, and utterly generic interchangeable human/elven/qunari enemies. (The qunari were awesome as characters, but in combat did not do anything noticeably different as far as I could tell.) Oh, and spiders.

    • viverravid says:

      DA2 also tones a lot of monsters down. Revenants were srs bsns in DA:O. Punishing optional boss fights.

      With the exception of one optional encounter, Revenants in DA2 are pretty much trash mobs. First time one popped up, I got scared, then it was dead in 4 hits. On Hard.

    • Stitched says:

      Considering the cameo of such a big DA figure, I am surprised Flemeth didn’t take a bigger role in the game.

  36. Archonsod says:

    “The most hilariously daft aspect of these three year comas must be the man queuing up to see the Viscount, who moans every time you walk past him that he’s been waiting all day. “For six years!” I would helpfully tell him as he repeated his only line deep into the game.”
    No, the most hilariously daft aspect is he’s still there in Act 3 and still giving you the same line.
    I disagree on the story aspect. As you yourself note at the start of the review, the entire premise is you’re just an immigrant trying to make good. It would be quite strange (or at least suggest certain things about Hawke’s character) if you had any greater goal style plot over-arching the game. I mean there’s not many people who plan three years ahead on a regular basis.
    Plus it does work with the background story. You know Hawke ultimately becomes important, therefore each year you get to play you know something significant will happen, though not what. Which keeps you guessing, the Qunari plot is the climax of act 2, but I don’t think it’s the important part of Act 2, or at least certainly not what the Chantry are looking for.
    I don’t think having foreknowledge of Hawk’s importance is a big deal either. You know going into a Bond movie James isn’t going to die, but it doesn’t make them any less watchable.

    • Kandon Arc says:

      I think what John’s trying to say, and what I feel, is that when you have such a gap between the players knowledge and the characters knowledge is that it’s detrimental to roleplaying. When you’re watching a Bond film, you’re not taking on the role of Bond, you’re just observing him so it’s a different experience.

      I think that the problem here is that they didn’t fully commit to the ‘you’re just an ordinary refugee storyline’ instead informing players at the beginning of the game that they would become Champion. Therefore the player is constantly expecting something epic to happen, but Hawke is just trying to survive. IMO in order to connect properly with the PC, your in-game priorities and knowledge should align as much with his as possible. In Mass Effect, you never know more about what’s going than Shepard does and that allows you to better relate to him.

      I guess what I’m trying to say is that as a player I felt like the person Varric was telling a story to, not the person he was telling a story about.

  37. Daedalus207 says:

    Thanks for the analysis, John. Reading your well-articulated explanation of precisely what you disliked about the game has helped me make sense of the wildly disparate reviews I’ve read around the interwebs.

    It relieves me somewhat to hear that the intro section is one of the more dull sections of the game. Since that was the section they chose to put into the demo, I was concerned that the entire game would feel that way.

    Since I do plan on playing the game eventually, perhaps waiting for a Steam sale, you’ve helped to set my expectations, and thus likely make my first playthrough more enjoyable.

  38. Namos says:

    Really great point about how the momentum is lost after the first act is over. Bioware seems to suffer from this problem when designing quest hubs – it took some willpower for me to power through Orzammar and the Deep Roads in DA:O, and I’ve heard similar things about the Citadel in Mass Effect. This is only exacerbated in DA2 because you have to go through the same exact quest hubs. I’ve reached the second act, and am really loath to boot up the game because of this (and because it crashes much more often in the second act).

    The biggest problem with DA2 is that it feels like such an unambitious game, while DA:O was so very ambitious.

  39. Zogtee says:

    I think what troubles me most about DA2 is the direction the series is taking. I’ve been following this from the beginning, when Bio distanced themselves from the D&D franchise and started work on their own world and rules system. When DA1 was released, I thought they had succeeded and I really liked the game. At a glance, it was a traditional fantasy world, but when you looked closer, there were several unique and interesting aspects about it.

    In comparison, DA2 is severely reduced in size and scope, the things that made the world unique are largely ignored this time around, and the character options are shrunk down to one race and three classes. It is a big step backwards and sideways, and I can’t help but wonder if Bio has doubts about the merits of their world. The world is a pretty big deal. As I mentioned, it was created to replace D&D (which essentially made Bio what they are today), years of work has gone into it and yet, they manage it so carelessly here.

    Yes, DA2 would have been better off as an expansion and not as a sequel, absolutely, but the fact remains that they DID present this as a proper sequel. Where will the series go from here?

  40. Ubik2000 says:

    I haven’t finished it yet, but everything in this article seems right to me.

    I love DA:O so much that I actually stopped playing it for a while just so it wouldn’t be over. With DA2…well, I haven’t played it in over a week, and it’s not exactly calling me back.

    While I agree with John that IN CONCEPT the whole idea of this game sounds great, but in practice, the lack of story and the knowledge that I’m going to be seeing the same stuff over and over and plowing through the same fights over and over is really robbing me of my desire to play. Leveling up to get cool new abilities is the only compelling reason to push forward (something I NEVER felt in DA:O, for good or ill). I will finish it sooner or later, and I’ll probably even have some measure of fun doing it, but it’s never going to be one of my top games. I know we hate number ratings around here, but if DA:O was, to me, an 8 or a 9, DA2 is about a 6.

  41. Nameless1 says:

    Nice work John, that’s what I expected from this (awesome) site and reviewers.
    I’d have probably been A LOT more harsh in evaluating the shameful product they released, not worth half the price it was sold and not worth 1\10 of the sales numbers it probably scored.

  42. Lobotomist says:

    It can officially be called Bioware’s worst game

    Problem is – I think real bad games are yet to come. Its EA now, not Bioware

    • Archonsod says:

      “It can officially be called Bioware’s worst game”

      Not while KotOR exists, no.

    • Jimbo says:

      Lies. Kotor is their best game. Neverwinter Nights is worse than DA2 though.

    • Archonsod says:

      KotOR is Neverwinter Nights. IN SPACE!

    • Jimbo says:

      I see no contradiction :)

    • Anguy says:

      Are you mad? KotOr was great!

    • Archonsod says:

      To this day it’s the only Bioware game I played through once, uninstalled and forgot about. I even played Jade Empire twice.

    • gorgol says:

      Both KOTOR and NWN2 were great. Everything after that from BW was rubbish imo.

    • Jimbo says:

      Obsidian made NWN2. It was about a billion times better than NWN 1 (but still not as good as KOTOR).

    • noodlecake says:

      Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2 have been two of the my most enjoyed gaming experiences of all time. I enjoyed origins too but the combat got repetitive and boring and the same enemies over and over and slow pace killed it for me. After playing loads of other games with generic RPG combat it just felt tired. The only thing that stopped me from getting bored of Origins sooner was the story and immersive world which were pretty decent. Dragon Age 2 made me feel a lot more though and the combat is hugely satisfying. :)

    • Wizardry says:

      Hey, noodlecake. If Origins had repetitive combat (which it did), why would you want to compare Dragon Age II’s combat to it? Surely we should all be comparing Dragon Age II’s combat to the combat in games with good combat. “Well it’s less repetitive than the combat in Dragon Age: Origins” isn’t a reason to rate Dragon Age II’s combat so highly.

      Also, what exactly is generic RPG combat? Can you give me examples? You’ve made exactly the same mistake again. There is no generic PC RPG style. There may be a generic BioWare RPG style, but there certainly isn’t a generic style that encompasses all PC RPGs. There is plenty of room for change without heading in the direction of action games. Action games, by their very nature, are not RPGs.

    • gorgol says:

      Ah thanks for the correction Jimbo. Then yes, every thing after KOTOR was rubbish from BW.

    • jacobkosh says:

      The idea that “action games can’t be RPGs” is the most exquisite nonsense. Roleplaying is about taking control of a character and making choices about how their story unfolds. The fact that in the past games like this have often compensated for their storytelling limitations by focusing on numbers-crunching stat and inventory management doesn’t mean that a game without those things suddenly isn’t a roleplaying game.

      Diablo lets you pick a character class and fetishistically gear out your faceless, voiceless little unperson in exactly the way you’d like. The tabletop roleplaying game Smallville has no stats for things like strength or dexterity – your character sheet instead lists story characteristics like “crusader for justice 2d8″ or “always in the nick of time 1d6.” One of these things is a roleplaying game and one of them isn’t, and the distinction is obvious to anyone who’s spent any time in the real world rolling dice with real people.

    • Kaira- says:

      I thought the worst game was that godawful Sonic-game that nobody ever remembers? You know, Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood? It holds metacritic-score of 74, whereas DA2 has 82 (PC) and KOTOR has 93. That is, if Metacritic is anything to go by.

  43. nayon says:

    Am I the only one who was put off by the extremely terrible animations? The characters’ faces looked so wooden and low quality, and the way everyone moved, especially during conversations, made the game awkward to the point of being unplayable for me. That and the controls/UI being very clunky, combat was a pain, I had to keep pausing not because I wanted to use tactics but because I wanted to actually be able to control the characters.

    If this game didn’t have Dragon Age in its name, no one would have cared about it, and it would get much lower review scores imo.

    Btw, there are a few typos in the article, “lose site” instead of “lose sight” is the only one I can remember, but I recall seeing at least one more.

    • Thursday says:

      I don’t know how long they’ve been using those cookie-cutter animations, but it’s been on my nerves since I started noticing them in ME2.

      Walk onscreen from stage left. Stop. Face protagonist.
      Pace left. Stop. Pace right. Stop. Turn to face protagonist.
      The worst is perhaps the hideously-rigid bowed-head-of-over-emotive-shame.

      P.S.: Sorry about the hyphen attack, they just kinda squirt out sometimes.

    • Archonsod says:

      They’re an improvement over ME1, with it’s “over dramatic look to the side, walk that way” method of finishing conversations. It felt like Shepard was being followed the entire game by his mother, lurking just off camera and about to give anyone he spoke to a stern telling off about their lack of manners.

  44. Tuor says:

    Consolization of plot, structure, UI, AI, dialog, content… basically everything. That’s what I take away from this review. If I had any doubts about my decision not to buy this game, this review has put them to rest. Even if it hits bargin bin prices, I probably wont buy it out of principle.

    Witcher 2, you carry all my hope now in the RPG genre.

    • FunkyBadger3 says:

      See that Mass Effect 2 – that was a console game. So your, err, point, really makes no sense. Its enough that a bad plot and structure is bad without trying to blame it on teh consolz…

    • gorgol says:

      Not looking forward to Skyrim? I certianly am. Proper open RPG :)

    • TariqOne says:

      Will you even be able to pick a gender for your guy in Witcher 2?

    • Tuor says:

      FunkyBadger3 wrote:
      ‘See that Mass Effect 2 – that was a console game. So your, err, point, really makes no sense. Its enough that a bad plot and structure is bad without trying to blame it on teh consolz…’

      Er… what? What does the fact that Mass Effect 2 was consolized (a point I agree with) have to do with Dragon Age 2 *not* having been consolized? Because it wasn’t as extreme as ME 2? The reason I brought up the plot is because by narrowing it the way they did, they didn’t have to include a bunch of locales: the plot is part of what *allowed* the other sorts of changes that were made.

      Gorgol: I’d forgotten about Skyrim. I’m trepidatious about it after Oblivion. If they make it (much) more like Marrowind, then I’ll be pretty happy. But I’m going to wait until the reviews for it are out before I decide whether or not I’ll buy it.

      TariqOne: What?

    • TariqOne says:

      It’s not that complicated. I find all this praise for the Witcher as as a crowning achievement in RPGs to be a bit odd, inasmuch as it doesn’t even allow the player any choices as to the type of character he or she wants to play. You’re stuck playing Guy Generico and that’s that.

      I have a hard time playing (and as I age am starting to refuse to play) games that don’t offer some degree of avatar choice (and for the girl gamers in my life, that includes gender choice). I started in pen and paper and adore the RPG genre and quite honestly, not being able to design your guy pretty much blows your RPG cred right there in minute one.

      I assume Witcher 2 will again require you to take the reins of Guy Generico. If so, I’m a bit surprised it’s bearing the mantle of RPG savior among some folks here. If not, I stand corrected. Hence my question.

    • Tuor says:

      TariqOne wrote:

      Ah. I understand now. I don’t think the Witcher series is the crowning achievement in RPGs. I just think it’s the best series (or at least close to it) available right now. I thought, for example, that Morrowind was at least as good as the Witcher, but… then Bethesda released Oblivion, and that was a significant step down, IMO, in most areas besides graphics.

      CDProjekt has shown a commitment to creating RPGs for the PC, and they’ve done a pretty good job doing it. While I can understand your preference for a character you create yourself, I don’t think that not having such a character is a show-stopper by any means. OTOH, I wish that there were more people as committed to making RPGs for the PC so that both options would be available. Maybe Skyrim will come through on that point; I hope so, though I have my doubts on that score.

      Anyway, I can understand your stance, but for me it doesn’t prevent me from enjoying the Witcher series.

  45. Yosharian says:

    Skeleton Hands.

  46. Carra says:

    I’ve finished the first half of the game and I’m still enjoying it. Some things really stick out:
    -> Recycled dungeons. How hard can it be to design a new dungeon?
    -> The city is one homogenous mess. Even the elven alienage looks the same as all other parts.
    -> I can no longer dress my companions? Great way to save on 3D modelling… but why do I still find tons of items I can’t used?
    -> Respawns of mobs. Respawns around my mages while my taunt is on cooldown? Grmbl

    On the plus side:
    -> I like the new skill trees
    -> Better inventory system

    I can sum it up as following: “1.5 years just isn’t enough to make a great game”.

    • Zenicetus says:

      “Recycled dungeons. How hard can it be to design a new dungeon?

      This might be a result of the multi-platform design. I read somewhere (maybe here on RPS comments?) that the recycled assets might be due to Bioware/EA wanting to fit the game on one disk for the XBox instead of requiring two. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but it could explain the mind-boggling asset re-use, compared to current standards for PC games.

      “I can no longer dress my companions? Great way to save on 3D modelling… but why do I still find tons of items I can’t used?”

      One word: DLC.

      Why give you the ability to swap armor for your companions, when they can sell you armor packs as DLC, like they did for Mass Effect? They haven’t announced anything like this yet, but does anyone here want to bet against it?

    • Carra says:

      DLC packs, maybe. You can streamline a game but they went over the top here. Picking and weighing items is one of my favorite things to do in a rpg.

    • Zenicetus says:

      I like doing that too. It’s one of the classic time-sinks for RPG’s; figuring out how to dole out inventory between your party, including armor and mage robes. Another weird design decision related to companion armor/clothing, is that two of your companions actually do get a change of outfit during the game. (Small spoiler alert, but this post is already loaded with spoilers so what the heck).

      I was astonished to see that at one point, Merril gets a new silver and white combination of chain armor and robe instead of her original Elf garb. There was no explanation in-game, although it might be related to the point where she moves into your mansion. And Anders switches to a black-feathered robe, I think at the conclusion of the Justice-removing potion quest. Again, no explicit reason given. I never saw the other companions change, except for maybe Aveline and the city guard armor, even though I had completed all their companion quests. Maybe more evidence of a rushed game? They finished the Act 3 change of wardrobe for Merrill and Anders, and didn’t have time to finish the others?

    • Archonsod says:

      From Gamespot’s interview:

      “GS: You have less control over your companions since you can’t equip them directly as you can Hawke. Can you describe the idea behind this particular change, and did you feel that you might be running the risk of players not feeling as much of a connection to those characters?

      ML: The key driver behind it was the idea of unique visuals, being able to have Isabela stay Isabela instead of generic rogue put into the same leather armor your character is wearing. It lets us create a visual space between Hawke and the companions. And it gives the companions their own personalities [in the form of] unique body models and animations that are tied to how they idle–simple stuff like Aveline and the way she stands with more of a straightforward stance as opposed to the cocked hip Isabela has and so on. The overall goal there was to keep the companions in a place where they had more personality, but still provide customization in terms of amulets and rings, because having things like fire resistance is important.

      Long term, do I think it hurt people’s connection to them? I don’t think so. I think if anything, the criticisms I’ve seen leveled at that are largely, “I don’t like it, simply because I either want to control them or I don’t.” That’s fair and something we’ll end up evaluating over time. It’s likely that we’ll end up coming back to a way to equip your followers, but at the same time, I really do think that having their own visual signature is really important. It’s something that resolves one of the parts I really disliked about Origins where I’d see people’s screenshots with their badass team and they would kind of all look the same. Near the end of the game, everyone had the same set of suits of armor. It was kind of like, “Man, that’s not Morrigan if she’s not in those robes.” We ended up in this space where we decided to go with that visual style, and I think it’s something we’ll continue to iterate on in the future. “

    • Wizardry says:

      @Archonsod: So they’ve sacrificed gameplay depth for visuals… again? Not cool. Definitely not cool.

    • malkav11 says:

      The really irritating thing about that is that it’s unnecessary. Sure, it’s become expected now that equipment will display visually on your character model, but it’s not any more fundamental or unbreakable a game design element than the various other things they’ve cheerfully jettisoned in recent games. Rather less important, actually. So they could easily have had a permanent character appearance (or deliberately changed only by certain game events) while still permitting full equipment customization.

    • formivore says:

      Eh, I ‘m totally with DA2 on this one. Especially considering how crummy the outfit options were in DA:O. A non-mmo RPG has better things to spend its limited resources on than designing multiple worthwhile outfits for your companions. And there was always something creepy about picking out outfits for all the boys and girls in your party. I will reserve my opinion about the people who enjoy doing this.

    • Archonsod says:

      “The really irritating thing about that is that it’s unnecessary.”

      Depends on your point of view. One of the things that got on my tits in DA:O was having to lug around all the armour and weapons I looted until I could return to camp so I could compare it to the companions not currently accompanying me to decide if I should sell it or not.
      DA2 is also far more restrictive with who can use what. If you’re not a warrior yourself Avelline is the only person who can wear plate and wield a single handed sword. That being the case, it simply boils down to looking at what she’s currently using compared to what you just picked up and keeping the better one. Since the quality of loot if level dependent in the first place, it makes as much sense to simply improve her equipment as she levels.

      I think the middle ground would be to give each character a couple of sets of armour with different attributes, so you could pick between say physical defence or magical defence, and a set of upgrades for each. That way you still have customisation for the player but can keep the visual distinctness.

  47. alexmasterson says:

    The most disappointing thing about DAII is how so many of these issues could have been solved with a longer development time.

    The fact that the post-campaign save loads up with Hawke in his mansion (thus presumably acting as the DLC hub) gives the impression that DLC will comprise of going back and filling all the gaping holes in the game content:

    - Hawke fleeing Ferelden and sailing out to Kirkwall.
    - Hawke’s adventures as a smuggler / mercenary.
    - Hawke sorting out and moving in to the estate.
    - Hawke going on a pirate adventure on Isabela’s new boat.
    - Aveline and Donnic’s wedding. (Plenty of comic material there, if nothing else.)
    - Hawke’s cousin getting an expanded role (this one is perhaps not so likely, but she did just disappear from the game).
    - Team Hawke preparing to leave the city after the endgame. (My guess is that this’ll probably be the final DLC)

  48. Kbohls says:

    Great read, I have been hearing people say this game is bad on the internet but not really go into detail, so it is nice to have a general idea of what makes it a disappointment. It seems that like you mentioned they missed obvious opportunities to make the player care about his/her family and the city.

    Also misspelled “could” as “culd” which made me burst out laughing for seemingly no reason. Or maybe you meant it and you were actually talking about the Complex Urban Landscape Design of Kirkwall(probably not)

  49. Mr Labbes says:

    Can someone tell me if this spoils any main plot points (i.e. more than the Zero Punctuation review of DA2 and the demo reveal)? I love John’s articles, but I would really like to play DA2 unspoiled (ha! As if that was possible for me!)

    • alexmasterson says:

      It does, yeah. But even if the spoils were minor, any game is best enjoyed without knowing what’s round the corner. Go play the game first, is my opinion :)

    • Mr Labbes says:

      Man, that was so not what I wanted to hear. Thanks, though :)

    • JKjoker says:

      i dont think it spoils anything zero puntuation didnt, in fact zero punctuation spoiled the lame endings of act 1 and 2 (Walker didnt) and the fact that there is barely any plot (i was at least hoping for something big to happen until act 3), DA2 has little to spoil but the disappointment you are going to get on the way

    • ryth says:

      The spoilers in the review are pretty inconsequential IMO. If you are looking for a very reasoned review of the game before you purchase it would be worth reading the article.

  50. Starayo says:

    For me, the Qunari plot was as immersion-shattering as the ending. They weren’t villified, I agreed with them, and yet I still had to go and fight them. As for the ending, as far as I was concerned they could both go and kill each other, but no…
    So I side with the mages, and of course the charming, intelligent, wise first enchanter *immediately* resorts to blood magic to become some twisted abomination. Why?! It was so incongruous with his character thus far!
    Loved Merrill though. She was delightful.

    • Archonsod says:

      The thing to note about the Qunari is if you play it a certain way it’s even possible to have them agree with you. You still end up fighting though, because that is what the Qun says they must do.

      The First Enchanter was a complete WTF moment though. It’s not even the incongruity of him using blood magic, the whole thing is nonsensical. He’s going to show the Templars the error of their ways … by forcing you and the rest of the circle to kill him before they arrive. That doesn’t make any sense no matter which way you look at it, you’d think perhaps he might wait until the Templars show up to do it, or y’know otherwise wait until he’s actually going to be fighting the Templars rather than the people he’s supposed to be doing it for.

    • Zenicetus says:

      I dunno… I can see the rationale of the First Enchanter immediately turning on your party after the demon transformation, instead of doing something logical like joining the fight against the Templars. It’s rammed home, over and over in the DA lore, that demon possession is the ultimate risk for mages, and you always lose control when it happens.

      It just didn’t make sense that the Enchanter did it in the first place, given the assumed outcome, and the fact that you’ve assembled a pretty bad-ass crew to fight for the mages by that point. It was like the Bioware art department had created that particular unique 3D model, and by golly they were going to make sure you saw it, and fought it, regardless of whatever choices you were trying to make within the storyline. They just couldn’t resist.

      It kills replay value, among other things. If you know the First Enchanter will always do that, then there is no incentive to replay and see if there’s a path where he survives, or at least dies with honor as a mage who avoids the temptation of Blood Magic.

    • viverravid says:

      …created that particular unique 3D model…

      The Orsino boss model is reused from a DA:O DLC. :(

    • snickersnack says:

      *spoilers*

      The first enchanter using blood magic and turning into an abomination seemed to make sense to me. You were fighting a hopeless battle and he gave into despair. The situation was so unfair. All the work he did to appease the templars and some terrorist throws it all away. Meredith knows what actually happened but still dead set on the annulment. He wanted to take as many of those bastards down with him as possible. Unfortunately he lost control, very much like Uldred. (recycling the Harvester model was lame though.)

      When mage sympathising Hawke finally reaches the central area of the gallows, we see the full host of the templar force. Hawke has lost. It would have ended there if not for DA:O’s templar screwball Cullen calling out Meredith as an even bigger nutjob.

  51. Branthog says:

    I only played for about thirty minutes the day it was released and haven’t touched it, since. I’ll go back and play it some day, but it just felt too hack-and-slash and felt like it was too much of a third-person over-the-shoulder typical console adventure RPG rather than the traditional PC RPG I expected.

    The stories of all the assets being reused, the dungeons that not only look the same, but *are* the same and the boring missions “go get me ten of these!” in some of the cities. It all just started to sound too generic. Too much like a money grab. Too much of a “placate the console experience at the expense of the traditional experience”. Too much like taking my favorite TV show and rebooting it with an aim to be appeal to the mouth-breathing masses.

    Most people seem to have the opinion that it’s good, but not as good as the first one. I just felt that, after a half hour, there was nothing appealing to me to dive into it full-force, right now. I just didn’t like the “feel” of it.

    • Kadayi says:

      I cannot yet recall one mission where I was told to go get ten of anything.

    • Zenicetus says:

      There aren’t any “get 10 of these” quests, true.

      On the other hand, many of the side quests are basically a quest-giver saying “Go through this cave/alley/warehouse/coastal road (which you’ve seen before), and fight through 10 groups of generic enemies and spawns, and then return to me afterwards.” Which feels like the same type of Fedex quest, after a while.

    • noodlecake says:

      I hated the first hour of it. I wanted to turn it off for ages but then after that first hour I was hooked and basically ignored everyone and everything for a week till I was at the end. There are way more pointless quests like “find me 10 potions!” in Origins. The quests in Dragon Age 2 are mostly very well thought out and your characters tend to talk about them all and react to some of even the most minor quests.

    • D3xter says:

      There are more than enough “get 10 anything” missions… just off the top of my head I can remember the one where you literally had to collect piss for Anders, the collection quests, the “find the Qunari swords” quest, the “look into all those crates till you find the right one” quest etc.

    • snickersnack says:

      If I need to get the sword of Iwin from the lady of the lake in order to defeat the archfoozle, is that also a fedex quest?

      The Anders collection bit is all in the same small area, basically just visit the map (he needs this crap to slay his personal dragon). Qunari swords isn’t really a quest and is totally optional ( I’ll trade any recovered swords for experience or money). The crate you need is labeled with ‘alt text’ so don’t need to do any searching and is very close to the entrance.

      I’m not sure you can have an RPG without a few quests like this. I suppose you could just press a button to make something awesome happen.

  52. shoptroll says:

    I read all the way through this intending my comment to be “They should’ve called this Dragon Age: Kirkwall” and John robbed me of that. Curse you Mr. Walker :(

    Sounds like a fun (in the Michael Bay sense) but flawed experience. Doesn’t seem worth the $60 to me so I’ll grab the goatee/ultimate off Steam once I eventually finish DA:O.

  53. Jeremy says:

    **SPOILER(kind of)**

    Anyone want to comment on what the F is up with Sandal? Of all the story lines in both games, this is probably the one that interests me the most. If you don’t know what I mean, consider these two things:

    - He has single handedly killed multiple darkspawn, abominations, and frozen an ogre across 3 separate encounters between DA:O and DA2.

    - If you click on him enough times while he’s in your house, he’ll say something slightly prophetic and/or creepy. I don’t want to quote it here, and if you haven’t seen it, youtube has a couple of vids on it I think.

    • Archonsod says:

      Sandal is the Maker. It’s the big reveal for DA III.

    • Kadayi says:

      One of them is a quote from a book (whose name escapes me atm), but I’m not too sure about the other however it was kind of creepy.

    • snickersnack says:

      I think that’s an easter egg. I’ve clicked on sandle plenty of times and never heard that. Just tried to get the dialogue a moment ago and couldn’t do it with about a minute of effort.

      I always liked Bodahn’s lyrium addled hypothesis. Sandal can fell hordes of darkspawn and demons because he is a gag character and it’s amusing for him to do so.

  54. FunkyBadger3 says:

    I’d also like to add that there’s a horrible scripting bug – Thrask isn’t immortal, so there’s a quest that you can choose to side with him vs. the “bad templar” and if you’er not on, he can get killed. Which means the quest never finishes properly. Which means you can go to the Deep Roads.

    Gah.

    It’s not a bad action-RPG, but its really an insult to the memory of Dragage 1. Anders and Varric (and FLemeth) deserve better…

  55. bhlaab says:

    Look, I’m not trying to say the game is terrible but

    *goes on to describe a game what is terrible*

  56. Jabberwocky says:

    here we have people that rival Mass Effect’s Ashley Williams for the personality of a sponge cake.
    As a proud representative of the SFTPADOSC (society for the protection against defamation of sponge cakes), I am pleased to inform you that RPS will be hearing from our lawyers soon.

  57. Jad says:

    I haven’t played the game yet, but while there seems to be a number of questionable design choices, a huge amount of the blame seems to be attributable to the 18-month development cycle.

    Eighteen months is incredibly short for any game, let alone a 40-hour RPG, particularly the sequel to a game with a 5+ year development cycle. Even Call of Duty games, so frequently criticized for their short length and small changes, take two years to develop.

    Think about it: Modern Warfare 2 was developed in 24 months, while Dragon Age II took 18. And there was a substantial expansion pack and lots of DLC released during that time, while COD4 had far less DLC and post-release support for Infinity Ward to be distracted by.

    I’m shocked that anything even resembling a finished game could result from such a punishingly short development cycle. Glaring flaws seem to be inevitable.

    • Zogtee says:

      Sure, but as far as I know, no one forced them to release it like this. They’re not exactly hurting for money and I think EA keeps them on a very loose leash, since Bio is their crown jewel right now.

      This is the game they made and chose to release. I’m assuming they’re pleased with it.

    • Jad says:

      Well, I think there has been some pressure on Bioware, not in the “publisher screwing around with a game for the heck of it” traditional complaint, but because of the incredible gamble that SWTOR has become. I think some amount of resources must have been re-allocated from DAII to that game, but even if that didn’t happen, I do believe that there must have been some pressure to release this game before the higher-profile Bioware releases of ME3 and SWTOR, if only to avoid self-cannibalization of sales.

      More basically, 18 months is just too short a time to produce an RPG of this type, and it was a mistake for Bioware to attempt it.

    • Archonsod says:

      “This is the game they made and chose to release. I’m assuming they’re pleased with it.”

      They certainly seem to be from what they’ve been saying. Also note the game has likely been in development for more than 18 months; it’s a pretty good bet they’re working on III right now, but they won’t announce it till they actually have something worth showing.

  58. woodsey says:

    I share mostly the same opinion; especially the part about really liking the concept, but it didn’t pay off in the end.

    My biggest complaint with the timeline structure would be that whenever you come out the other side of a transition, there’s a bunch of dialogue that references what the characters have been doing for the past 3 years, but it doesn’t actually tell you outside of the codex.

    The worst offender is when Isabella apparently runs off for the 3 years in between (for no reason whatsoever), and I’m supposed to be angry. Well, I’m not, because she was there 2 minutes ago and now she’s where she always is.

    Origins had many more choices and consequences too – I couldn’t believe it when I was told that no matter what you did, that certain massive event would still happen, and the fixed ending was a terrible decision. Especially after the rather ridiculously touching epilogue in Origins.

    I still enjoyed it, but the mistakes felt so amateurish.

  59. ChromeBallz says:

    The one thing im wondering about…

    DA:O was a massive success for Bioware, despite being a more ‘difficult’ game for consoles. People ate it up in droves, DLC and all.

    Despite this, someone STILL thought “hey, lets make it more like Mass Effect!” – Why? The game proved to be a success and people wanted more! Instead they got Dragon Effect, starring Hawperd in a game that even in passing has barely anything to do with it’s prequel.

    I ask, WHY?

  60. v_ware says:

    A very good read. I actually liked the game at first.

    Till I started to reminisce about KOTOR. DA2 is just sad.

  61. Akheloios says:

    I liked the game, it was fun and kept me entertained through the 40 hours of gametime even with it’s glaring flaws. That said, it’s a bare skeleton of a game. I don’t know if it’s The Old Republic, or Mass Effect III, but something made them decide to cut the game down to bare bones.

    The constant reuse of one of a few locations or area maps, the comatose years between cutscenes where you apparently sit in your house, neither improving your skills nor talking to your old friends, or even even venturing out into the city to find out what is going on.

    It smacks of someone at the management level taking away a lot of the resources, the actual game was there, but the quests, dialogue, maps and quests still needed to be done. Lacking the resources for the game, they had to do the only thing the could, cut. The deep philosophical questions were gone, the number of quests lowered, the maps reused, several other areas alluded to in the game, like the rest of the Free Marches, jettisoned.

    This is a game that had a team of real professionals working on it, but they didn’t have either the resources or time to do the same amount of work that they did for DO:O. I had the feeling that someone high up knew that they couldn’t spend as much money or time on DAII as they should and had to make a choice, do 1/3 of a game and release the rest of the game in expansions and/or DLC, or pare the thing down to the minimum that would let them release the game in one lump. I think they decided to pare it down, simply because they were worried that not everyone would buy Dragon Age II: Parts II and III.

    I think it was a mistake, DAII lacked the depth of a full game, and in deciding to pare down, they refused the chance to do the entire story (which it looks like they had, but cut mercilessly) in two or three separate releases.

    • Nichael says:

      While it’s a near certainty that much of DA2 was rushed, and probably cut, I don’t think there was ever a point in development where you got to see anymore of the Free Marches than Kirkwall. I’m sure though that at one point early on in development, Kirkwall was planned to be larger.

  62. Robert says:

    I actually enjoyed the non-epicness of the game. There’ve been years that I wanted run into a gamestore and grab my keys to scratch out the word ‘epic’ on the back of every game box. I did feel part of the world, partially because it was such a small part of the ‘world’. It clicked for me.

    Playing the game once, without reloading, alleviated a lot of the ‘lack of meaningful’ choice people seemed to have. Talking it over with a friend of mine, did however make it feel like it was ‘my’ story.

    Maybe it’s because Aveline reminds me of someone I know, I did not find her that horrible. It was Anders that had me itching.

    Objectively speaking it might not have been the greatest game, but for me, it was the RPG I had the most fun with the last 5(? maybe even more) years.

  63. Groove says:

    I hate the conversation wheel. I’ve heard people rave about the concept, but it just seems to be dumbing down to me.

    Can someone please explain it to me? (A serious request, not a joke, do not get it)

    • Archonsod says:

      It’s the amazing ability to know beforehand whether you’re going to say “I’m going to take on the entire Qunari army single handed” as a threat or a joke.

    • Groove says:

      That is a good point. I remember having issues like that, and it does resolve it.

      Still not sure if it’s worth it….but that’s a larger question. Thank you Commentor.

    • Joof says:

      Wasn’t that why we had the “(Joking) I’m going to take on the entire Qunari army single handedly.” prompts? I’d much rather that than something that just says “Qunari Army” with a symbol in the middle denoting tone, not knowing what I’m going to say about them.

    • Wizardry says:

      1) I will need all your help if we are to defeat the Qunari army.
      2) [Serious] I’m going to take on the entire Qunari army single handed.
      3) [Joke] I’m going to take on the entire Qunari army single handed.
      4) I suggest we flee from this land.
      5) The Qunari army is no concern of mine.
      6) I want to be a dragon.

      It’s not fucking hard!

    • Archonsod says:

      It doesn’t look anywhere near as good either.

    • formivore says:

      The conversation wheel may or may not be a good idea in theory but in practice it gets used as a horribly lazy crutch.
      There are three options diplomatic, jokey, and foaming-at-the-mouth. For some reason BW feels the need to constantly adhere to this scheme which really cuts down on the possibilities for what your character can say and forces a lot of desperate jokes.

    • Archonsod says:

      It doesn’t. There’s a limit of 10 possible choices on the dialogue wheel, which is four more than Origins had. They don’t tend to go past three, because three is all the dialogue writers bothered with, and if the dialogue writers can only come up with three responses it doesn’t matter how you format the choice, you’re only going to have three responses.

      The only thing the list does is let them pretend there’s more choices by simply rewording the same response two or three times. As you can see in Origins where no matter how many choices the dialogue option has, there’s only three NPC responses for each conversation.

    • Wizardry says:

      Okay, so how do you have [Science], [Medicine], [Computer] and [Repair] options in a limited option dialogue wheel?

    • kongming says:

      That argument’s not gonna work on Archonsod, since he’s addled enough to think that KotOR is Bioware’s worst game.

  64. Overlai says:

    “Let’s not lose site of that.” *sight

  65. Easydog says:

    Solid review thing. I loved the game in the end but that’s not to say I don’t agree with a good deal of what John has to say on the matter. Good ol’ RPS :)

  66. Vinraith says:

    Thanks John, I do believe you just saved me bothering with this one at all. I’m looking forward to your “cruel” play through. There’s a certain joy in reading about games you have no intention of playing, and thus needn’t worry about spoiling, especially when they’re this well-written.

    All of this does worry me a bit about ME3, though. Are DA and ME made by different teams?

  67. StingingVelvet says:

    I hope Bioware are reading all these well thought-out and critical looks at their game. Yes, the metacritic is in the 70′s now on XBox, but I could seem them focusing on little things to explain that like the repeated dungeons. The fact is there are some core problems with development and story decisions they made in this game and I hope they realize that.

    A lot of people are saying it was rushed and that explains everything, but no… the decisions they made were poor ones.

  68. Bob says:

    I didn’t mind playing it but it’s “dereliction of duty” to the game’s lore was a little strange. Also your choices didn’t seem relevant as the game kinda went it’s way regardless, e.g. the First Enchanter in Act 3. It left me wanting more as I felt it wasn’t fleshed out enough, so I *finally* purchased Origins and the 35 plus hours so far have been very enjoyable.

  69. undead dolphin hacker says:

    Sounds like a classic case of a bad game.

    Games are binary. Sorry. At the end (or whenever you decide to stop playing), you have to decide if the time and money you put into the game was worth it or not. If it was, it’s a good game. If it’s not, it’s a bad one.

    You mention iTune’s 1 star vs 5 star trend. Know why that happens? Because you either like a song or you don’t. Only the beret-wearing fools with a BA in Music Appreciation can say with any kind of legitimacy that this song is a 4 and this one a 2. Or, god help them, a 3. What the hell does a 3 mean when it comes to music?

    Outside of the times that New Games Journalism gazes at its navel trying to decide if games are art or not, it’s insisting that games are art. And art is binary.

    So yeah. Dragon Age 2, by your account, sounds like a genuinely bad game.

    • Groove says:

      Your argument is essentially reverse hipsterism. Thinking isn’t pretentious. There are more ways to enjoy something than yes or no.

    • StingingVelvet says:

      Yeah, this is quite the silly post (no offense). Dragon Age 2 has a lot of flaws but can still be a fun experience on many other levels. Thinking about it as a black and white equation of good and bad robs you of a flawed but potentially enjoyable experience.

    • snickersnack says:

      You’re with us or against us? :(

    • Chris D says:

      This is why all sites that score games rate them as either 0 or 100% with nothing in between. Or something.

  70. Binman88 says:

    I haven’t really proof-read this, because it ended up being longer than I intended and I didn’t feel like re-reading it, so my apologies if it’s a bit of a mess

    I was really put off at the start of the game, when you get to Kirkwall and walk into Hightown for the first time. The place seemed so empty and lifeless, with barely an NPC or two walking among the four or five shopkeepers, who stand in the same place, gesturing to no one. The city offers you nothing to feel like this is a real place worth caring about. Being as quiet and mundane as it is, any sense of believability is shattered.

    I am enjoying the game now (I’m just starting the second act), but for the wrong reasons. I enjoy it for the gamey-ness of it. I’m completing tasks and killing bad guys and getting rewarded for it. I wish I was enjoying it for the story and the atmosphere, but I’m not, because I don’t even know what the story is and there’s very little atmosphere to speak of. It may sound like an exaggeration, but I’ve played Morrowind mods in the past that genuinely gave me a better sense of atmosphere than anything I’ve experienced so far in DAII.

    I do like the characters. I think they’ve done a decent job with them, but I’d rather they were more fleshed out. Being somewhat of a headless chicken with no real goal to accomplish, perhaps it would have been better to give me more things to do with my companions, and learn more about their backgrounds. Sebastian Vael is introduced early in the game and has a seemingly interesting story behind him. The first quest you do on his behalf is chopping down a bunch of thugs in a few locations. Then later on when he joins your party, you go to a house to uncover the reasons for his parents deaths, and end up chop down some more fools, which seems to wrap up his story for good. Like I said before, it’s fun for the gamey-ness of it, but at the end of the day I feel like I’m just this mindless killing machine, roaming around Kirkwall looking for things to kill. I can barely think of a single quest I was sent on that didn’t involve having to commit murder. Pretty sure even that Herbalists’ quest to find some herbs had me killing people I encountered along the way. Perhaps that actually explains why Kirkwall is so bloody quiet – I KILLED THEM ALL! I understand that combat is a huge part of DA as a series, but even DA:O had more interesting quests that either justified the killing (like that one about the cult in the mountain), or didn’t require killing at all (that young Dwarven girl who wanted to become a mage). A bit more adventuring and discovering is what I’m after, or in the very least, give me a compelling reason to kill people, instead of “because they’re a possessed mage” or “because they’re the bad guys”.

    The game seems to me to be a particularly rushed effort. If we are to assume that Bioware started work on DAII around the release date of DA:O, that gives them barely a year and half to develop a “story”, characters, places, quests, items etc. I’m quite aware that game development is a business, but developers have proved in the past that a game can be successful as both a labour of love and a labour of profit. DAII feels too concerned with the latter. It’s decent, but it’s nothing special.

    • snickersnack says:

      *loads up disgustingly good human noble character from DA:O and clicks on heroic accomplishments button of character record.

      (personal) kills:1340
      (party) kills:3654

      Did you play the same DA:O i did? ;)

    • Binman88 says:

      Yeah I realise DA:O was no slouch when it came to murder, but I felt it had enough interesting stuff behind the tasks that had you murder people, if you get what I mean. Anyway, I wasn’t really saying DA:O is free of these problems either – take what I said as a criticism that also applies in parts to DA:O, but specifically DAII.

      At some point, it just gets boring and stupid to square up to some measly group of bandits who should really know better that they’re gonna get their asses handed to them by the baddest murderer of Kirkwall (that’s me!). With 100s of kills to my characters’ name alone, surely they’ve been warned ahead of time that I might pay them a visit and fuck them up!

      Like I said, I’m not against the idea of combat, or having to kill a bunch of dudes, but I think they could try and make it more believable and justifiable, rather than being so predictable. I think it’s a shame that nearly every single quest involves you just following a map icon, killing everything when you get there, then collecting an item from a chest or speaking to a hostage or lone survivor when you’re done.

  71. Greetz_DK says:

    40 hours? I really don’t get this. My steam says i played a total of 16 hours and I’m ceartain i did all sidequests, companion quests and “secondary quests”. Meh.

    The biggest flaw, i think, is the mass effect approach to dialog. In Merils quest theres a final conversation with her clan. One of the options were “I will take care of her” or something like that. My thought were “Hey! She will definitively like someone sticking out for her and help her” no she did not. As it turned out my reply were really rude. And each of the other options ended with me *SPOILER* killing her whole clan *SPOILER* and then she had nothing to say. NOTHING! And the whole mirror was just forgotten.

    Every character is so cliché ridden and boring. Fenris is a white haired tortured elf who hates mages… *yawn*– Anders i had high hopes for but he ended up being so mopy and emo, “no you can never love me, i will only hurt you ” ):
    Isabella is a whore… thats about it. And i guess shes supposed to be funny? No idea.

    Also Flemeth had been promote as a main character and all sort of ominous things. She appears twice. And each time were a disappointment. Mainly her whole role in the game were proving she couldn’t be killed. Awesome!

    I agree that while it is a good game it’s ultimately a disappointing experience. Unlike DAO or ME2 you learn nothing, theres nothing to take away and think about (unlike DAO’s circle and ME2 companion quests). And every choice you make end up meaning nothing.

    And unlike DAO theres no replay value since choices ends up being meaningless. In DAO i would go “Woah! I wonder how this would play out if i did something else instead!?” But DA2 is so easily deciphered “I did like this then if i do like this then that MUST happen”.

    Like ME2 i enjoyed it till i started thinking too much.
    (again good game, great concept but very disappointing)

    • StingingVelvet says:

      I played it for 53 hours and I skipped a lot of act three. If you finished in 16 you really sped through it, whether you realize it or not.

    • malkav11 says:

      Merrill’s quest is bugged. She goes into a weepy sobfit at some random point preceding the murder of her entire clan for reasons that are at that time opaque. it’s pretty clearly meant to happen -after- the murdering. It just doesn’t.

      The mirror doesn’t come up, though, that I recall.

    • snickersnack says:

      16 hours! xD I bet you could play through Deus Ex during your coffee break.

      I am the opposite extreme. My first playthrough of DA2 took 123.5 hours*.

      Different strokes for different folks I guess

      *DA:O took me 155.5 for the base campaign as a point of reference.

  72. DigitalEccentric says:

    I wrote about this on my own blog, regarding the story and the themes it tries to come across. You touched on this in your post but what really got me was that, ultimately, Meredith was right.

    Bar one or two minor instances, every Mage you meet ends up turning into a Demon, or bad, or something. Even the First Enchanter turns into a demon, and he’s the becon of “Mages arn’t all that bad” for the whole of the third act, and yet even he says “Fuck it” and get’s his Blood Magic on. How can you make a moral choice in a world where the bad guys, actually, have a very valid point?

    As emotionally gripping as Ander’s act of terrorism was, it just hit home the fact that you shouldn’t really side with the Mages, because they will eventually just turn on you one way or another. What made this even worse is that the game still insisted that siding with the mages was the “good” thing to do.

    Like you say though, and like many commenters have said, this is an enjoyable game to the point where nothing really stops you from playing it. It’s not technically perfect (And don’t get me started on the re-used environements), yet there’s nothing game breaking. (Although I hear Fenris’ quest is broken, and Merril’s ended up firing in the wrong order for me, which was confusing. Anyway)… I personally liked the framed narrative style of story-telling, so I think your criticism of the fact that you already know the ending is a little misplaced. All you know is that you are the champion. The details are still up to you and are still interesting to find out. It was enough to keep me playing anyway.

    But yeah, there is a worrying amount of ‘little’ things that really detract from the game overall.

    • Pijama says:

      The problem is that it gets even more jarring if YOU are a mage.

      I mean, I am definitely killing Anders if I ever do a second playthrough. What a complete arsehole of a character (at least in this). Completely unlikeable by the 3rd act.

      And don’t get me started on Orsino. Become an abomination when you are turning the tide? THANKS A LOT, wanker.

    • Archonsod says:

      “How can you make a moral choice in a world where the bad guys, actually, have a very valid point?”

      Because a choice between someone who has a point and someone who doesn’t is rational rather than moral?

      There’s actually four sides to the argument. The Templars state mages are dangerous and must be controlled, the mages insist they have a right to freedom. The Templars state the Circle is the only way, the mages state the Circle simply doesn’t work. They’re all valid points; mages are indeed dangerous, but it’s not their fault they’re mages so it doesn’t seem morally right to lock them up. The Circle certainly does seem to stop the worst excesses as seen in Tevinter, but at the same time the large quantities of blood mages you fight, not to mention the fact this is the second time we’ve seen the Circle collapse, suggests they might need to find a more effective system.

      And that’s before you look at how much Templar oppression is behind mages turning to blood magic in the first place.

    • viverravid says:

      They’re all valid points; mages are indeed dangerous, but it’s not their fault they’re mages so it doesn’t seem morally right to lock them up.

      This guy is a psychopath due to a genetic/environmental condition. It’s not his fault he’s a psychopath and keeps killing people, so it’s not right to lock him up.

      Right.

    • Archonsod says:

      You do realise that was the justification for moving the prison system from punishment to rehabilitation in the nineteenth century, right?

    • viverravid says:

      You do realise that was the justification for moving the prison system from punishment to rehabilitation in the nineteenth century, right?

      And a good idea it was – after all, crime rates are so much lower now.

      If you hadn’t played DA:O, how could you not see the mage characters in DA2 as a massive argument in favour of the templars? The only mage character that isn’t murderously flawed, is your sister, or Hawke. They are a danger to themselves and others; rehabilitation would be great if possible, otherwise protective custody.

    • snickersnack says:

      Blood Magic is VERY dangerous (powerful things tend to be) and forbidden by the chantry. However being a practitioner of Blood Magic does not necessarily mean you are evil or an abomination. Blood Mages like Avernus and Jowan arguably used it with good intentions.

      I think Orsino using blood magic in the end was more an act of desperation or futility than a desire for heresy. Bioware may have failed to convey this when Orsino turned, but by the time you encounter the full templar host behind Meredith, it is clear you have no chance.

    • Archonsod says:

      “The only mage character that isn’t murderously flawed, is your sister, or Hawke. ”
      Merrill’s only flaw is to be naive, which isn’t anything related to her blood magic abilities though it might make her dangerous. Anders is technically possessed, yet he seems to spend his time healing the sick and wounded when he isn’t assassinating the Pope. The whole Hawke family seem to be pretty fine, despite being Apostate central. The Qunari mage too seems to be pretty normal, even if he does off himself out of a sense of duty (which is normal for a Qunari I guess)
      Contrast that with the Templar / Chantry, one of whom proposes mass mind wiping as a means to quash dissent and another who is determined to spark off a war with the Qunari because a few people decided to follow the Qun rather than the Chant. The first Templar you meet, while fleeing a Darkspawn horde, still believes killing you or your sister is the most important thing they should be doing until they’re talked down by their wife. Oh, and let’s not forget if you ever challenge them about any of this, the excuse trotted out is that God told them to do it.
      Once could ask how you could side with the Templars if you didn’t play DA:O, since the only thing they’re missing are the swastikas and jackboots. They even riff off the Nazi’s directly with the whole “final solution” deal.

    • viverravid says:

      Merrill’s only flaw is to be naive,

      Except in most story branches her whole clan ends up dead as a result of her actions. Murderously flawed.

      And Anders – obviously murderously flawed once you get to the act 3 climax.

      And don’t bring up the half elf child – whose best result is going to live in the mage dominated slave empire.

  73. Pijama says:

    Pretty much agreed. But once I stopped giving a fuck in hoping that the story would take flight, my enjoyment with the game increased a lot – hack, slash, boom, blood everywhere, yay, next…

    That is a bad thing. Bioware is pretty much one of the select few who have the ability to captivate a lot of fans through the merits of their narratives, not just the game. So seeing them doing such a poor job is definitely disheartening.

  74. Chronos1985 says:

    I did fairly enjoy the game. But I think it was more in terms of killing time. I’ve never felt that way towards Bioware games where it was just a time killer. They have always drawn me in, to the point I never wanted it to end, and yet couldn’t stop playing. Jade Empire is the only other game I could think of that fits that killing time kinda game category.

    This was my biggest worry though. DA:O was such a hit on consoles that they were bound to streamline as much as possible to appease the console market to the point I feel it was dumbed down. It might be my nostalgia talking, but I miss Baldur’s Gate 2. The spellbooks where you pick your spells were just enchanting to me as a player. The lore was funneled better to the player. I found myself NEVER interested in reading the codex. But I always loved reading the books in Baldur’s Gate. I which I could explain it, but it’s all the intangibles that wove together.

    One last gripe. I am tired of Bioware claiming Dragon Age is dark and gritty. It’s not. Baldur’s Gate was. They have all these volatile topics like slavery and rape and yet I don’t feel emotionally connected to it. I don’t feel a emotional weight that dark material should give you. I want to love this game, I crave to. But I can’t help but feel let down by the Dragon Age series in general. My hopes will lay in The Witcher 2.

  75. MountainShouter says:

    My biggest qualm is with the story, which is, well… (Warning, plot spoilers)

    DA2′s biggest failure compared to Origins is that I had no control over the major plot events. The Qunari will ransack the city regardless of my diplomatic skills. Anders will bomb the Chantry regardless of whether or not we’re lovers and whether or not I support him. The Keeper will become possessed regardless of whether or not I give Merril the tool to fix the Eluvian. My mother will be killed by a blood mage regardless of whether or not I cooperate with Depuis.

    I have some MAJOR beef with that. I actually reloaded multiple times to see if there was any way to prevent those things from happening, but couldn’t. I mean, what the freak, Bioware? Why do you give me the illusion that I actually have choice in this craptastic story of yours?

    • Sirbolt says:

      Basically because it is a lot cheaper to simply give the illusion of choice. Bioware have started to design games by way of the statistics they’ve gathered over the years, Most people don’t replay games, so they won’t even notice that the decisions they make don’t matter. So if you give the illusion of depth were there is none, you save a ton of money and effort and give the player the feeling of choices and consequences, even though there are none. Win win if you’re Bioware.

    • Archonsod says:

      What do you mean started? I can’t think of any Bioware game where you had any influence over major plot events whatsoever. About the only variable would be how far they stretched suspension of disbelief to get to that outcome.

      In fact the only part of DA2 which differs from the template Bioware have been using since the BG II days is that you don’t get to choose which order you do the middle section in. Otherwise, it’s identical, right down to the “we know you’ve been following the good path the entire game but we’re still going to give you the choice of switching to the evil path at the climax”.

    • snickersnack says:

      I love how you can give Rendon Howe second thoughts about massacring the Couslands by pursuing your courtship with Delilah Howe.

      It was really cool when you told off Arl Eamon about still wanting to kill your best friend Jowan in spite of you saving his entire family, arldom, and curing him with a token of the favor of your religion’s greatest prophet.

      My fallen circle mage joined with Uldred’s libertarians and successfully repelled the templar annulment. Amell is kind of having second thoughts about this though as he has to spend all his money on skin moisturizer now. At least the rage demon emmissary at camp accepts puppies and kittens instead of taking all my runes. :/

  76. Metonymy says:

    I can’t believe you wrote so many words. Sure, it’s average. Why give press to something that should not be played or purchased by anyone except a fan?

    Games with control schemes this poor weren’t acceptable in the 80s, why would they be acceptable now?

    • Sheve says:

      Because Bioware is a studio normally known for quality. Forget living up to DAO standards, this game isn’t up to BIOWARE standards. Maybe EA’s to blame, maybe not, but it needs to be made clear from both reviewers and users alike that we’re NOT going to quietly accept a game that is below the developers potential.

  77. Wedge says:

    So basically it sounds like… Bioware got Obsidian’ed with this. Oh lol

    • Nick says:

      Except Obsidian still manage compelling, well written narrative.

    • malkav11 says:

      And so far have managed game mechanical improvements in all of their sequels (admittedly to other people’s games), where Bioware’s track record on that is rather shaky.

      And DA2′s been buggier for me than any Obsidian game I’ve played. And KOTOR 2′s ending just kind of wasn’t there, rather than imploding in spectacularly stupid decisions by NPCs.

  78. Betamax says:

    I agree with about three quarters of the points made here, although towards the end you seemed to slide towards ranting a little. Also some of the things you point out are quite subjective (I get it you don’t like Aveline, others do, I’m not sure you can state as a definitive fact that she was badly written and voiced in the way you do).

    The game took me only a little less time to complete than Origins incidentally, but then you seemed to sink even more time than me into the latter (and I have been accused often of sinking more time than usual into these games). However this is diminished thanks to the repeated areas, lack of change in Kirkwall, and the lack of new areas to explore in later acts.

    Heavily agree too about the opening, it’s the games weakest aspect in my opinion and that could have been avoided just by including a ‘Lothering’ section. Conversely I don’t really agree (at least, as harsly) with your complaints about the plot, I found it quite easy to understand why I was going to the Deep Roads, found it fun using my imagination to develop Hawke in the gap (whilst the game didn’t introduce too many things outside of my control in that time), and in general liked the rise to power aspect.

    Didn’t have a problem with Anders nor picking a side (Bioware games always give you a ‘last chance to change your mind’ with big decisions), although the ending was definitely not one of their best in terms of execution. The idea of both leaders displaying the worst aspects of their repsective orders was fine, but there needed to be a least one or two extra likable mages after Anders’ stunt and you could tell it had been rushed in places more than ever with the massive missed opportunity represented by the dull Gallows Circle.

    There was nothing wrong with the Templar area per say, but the fact it made up 90% of the inside of such a key area (and had already been seen and explored in the Fade possibly) was a big let down. In general I wouldn’t have cared about the recycling if it was restricted to side quests and such.

    Anyway, it would be easy to write double this again on the subject when the TLDR is essentially that I agree with what is written in essence. DA2 has quickly become one of my all time favourite story focused RPG’s (and thus respectively, BioWare game) however that doesn’t prevent me from recognising it as a flawed game that misses a lot of it’s potential for one reason or another, and essentially ending up as being far from BioWare’s best game in reality.

    • Archonsod says:

      “The idea of both leaders displaying the worst aspects of their repsective orders was fine, but there needed to be a least one or two extra likable mages after Anders’ stunt”

      Merrill? I’d have said the issue was the opposite; there’s plenty of sympathetic mages you bump into during the game. It’s the Templars who are lacking; there’s only two in the whole game who seem to be anything but vicious fascists, and one of them is dead. Even Avelline’s husband threatens to kill Bethany in the opening act.

      As I’ve said elsewhere, I think having Anders do that was a good thing. The game goes out of it’s way to suggest your companions have lives outside of their relationship with Hawke, and Ander’s actions serve as a good reinforcement of this idea. It’s one of the problems RPG’s have had since Viconia in BG II; no matter what the NPC’s personality is supposed to be, as soon as they become members of your party they seem to abandon any ambitions or personality in order to let the player dictate their actions, which kinda reduces the entire point of having them.

    • Betamax says:

      Hmm, well I never saw myself siding with the Templars going into DA2 with what I saw in Origins. But by the time that final decision came around the only reason I had any doubt at all was because I felt killing all the Mages was unnecessary. The Templars don’t come across as particularly shiny smiley happy people but I felt the game did a good job (too good a job?) Of showing how their sometimes strict measures were there for a reason.

      In Act 1 I was siding with the Mages most of the time, by act 3 that had completed changed and I actually sided with Meredith from the get go. Whether it was big things like the quest All That Remains (and I never trusted Orsino after reading the note he wrote to the psycho mage), or little things that piled up like the fact that 8/10 a mage you went to see turned to blood magic; slowly I just came around to the idea that even if the Circle -should- be challenged it certainly shouldn’t happen in Kirkwall.

      There are some nice enough Templars, such as Trask and Samson (and even Cullen in DA2). However the only Circle mages I can think of that are comparable are Bethany and Ella. Merrill to a certain extent, but because she isn’t a part of the Circle she seemed a little detached from events – especially as she sided with me and the Templars due to my having her at fully rivalry. I guess the main thing missing is a Mage equivilant of Cullen.

      Oh and I agree with you about Anders and NPC’s having lives that continue regardless of Hawke. Although I do wish you could alter -something- about the Chantry event if you take his Act 3 quest. Merrill’s is one of my favourites in that regard, especially if you take the rivalry path and try to help her. Although part of the reason I like that (beyond it focusing on Merrill) is that it was one of the few heavily Dwarf or Elf focused parts of the game. Still my biggest complaint (yes bigger than the recycling) is that those two elements were so neglected that we didn’t even see a female Dwarf in the game.

    • Archonsod says:

      I think Merrill is the stand out because she is non-circle, and a blood mage, but isn’t really portrayed as being corrupt.

      I swung for the mages in the end. One of the things that was brought up a few times is that the Templars support the Circle as it is not because it’s the best or only way to control mages, but because it’s the only way in which they retain all the power. One of the interesting things to note is that Anders is the only one who really advocates complete freedom for magi, everyone else including the First Enchanter seem to accept they require some measure of restriction and control, it’s the severity they have a problem with.
      In addition to that Tevinter was always in the back of my mind. It seems to me a lot of the problems, such as the slavery, pre-date the Chantry, let alone the Circle, therefore trying to pin everything on it’s mages being free is somewhat off. In addition even Fenris admits that blood magic seems to be just as controlled in Tevinter as elsewhere. All of which made me think Anders might have had a point; the reason there’s so many blood mages is because the Circle encourages them, whether it’s mages taking to it in a desperate attempt to save their own lives from Templar oppression or simply because it makes possession that much easier (after all, all a demon need promise is a chance for freedom).

  79. LordUbiquitous says:

    DAII is a better game than DA:O.

    A dramatic title, I know, but no less dramatic than: “What Went Wrong In Dragon Age II”, because I assume it won’t be followed up with a “What Went Right”.

    But, for the sake of fairness, let me rephrase that:

    I enjoyed DAII more than DA:O.

    Admittedly, there are some excellent parts to DA:O – the origin stories were a brilliant idea, and there were some tough decisions to be made throughout the game – however, it was also bloated and uninteresting for a good quarter of its running time.

    (Sidenote: I cannot fathom where you can have 120 hours spent in DA:O for a single play-through. For me the numbers are: DA:O – 33 hours, Awakenings – 10 hours, DAII – 25 hours.)

    The thing is, I think BioWare’s biggest mistake was calling it DAII. As people have pointed out, it would have been better referred to as “Dragon Age: Kirkwall” or something of that ilk. It’s not DA:O, and it’s not trying to be DA:O. It’s no longer a huge, open world with sprawling decisions. It’s a linear story, with the ability for the player to make choices within its narrative confines.

    You see, it’s not BioWare making a sequel to DA:O, it’s BioWare making The Witcher.

    The choices aren’t as narrative-changing as the ones in DA:O, but they’re still difficult choices to make. I found myself agonising over many of them, straining to figure out what my Hawke would do in those circumstances. I made a lot of decisions I wouldn’t normally have made, if I were just playing the game as myself. It’s a role-playing game, it should be rewarded for letting you play a role, a different role, an interesting and challenging role, instead of “there’s an ancient evil you must destroy” type role.

    I enjoyed DAII’s narrative. I liked how it focused on a city. I didn’t mind the repeating environments, as, in a way, their familiarity reminded me that this was my city. I was the protector of Kirkwall, the Champion of Kirkwall. It’s a lot easier to care about a singular city than it is to care about an entire nation being harassed by orcs, I mean, Darkspawn.

    Crank the difficulty up to hard, and the combat is perfectly exciting, requiring all the good sorts of tactical know-how that you boffins desire.

    Also, more reviews need to talk about the dialogue wheel: I vehemently disliked it at first, because – especially during the prologue – it felt like Hawke’s responses didn’t match up with what I’d selected. However, someone pointed out in the comments thread of the previous DAII post on this site that it was because Hawke’s responses changed depending on what their dominant personality was – something which didn’t kick in during the prologue. Why is this not mentioned more? It’s a brilliant move, meaning that you can have a voice-acted protagonist, while still allowing some leeway in what personality they take. My Hawke was an aggressive, no-nonsense fellow who had to make some tough decisions regarding the fate of Kirkwall.

    And nobody mentions how you can have your companions interject in the conversation, just in case you need Varric to inflate your image to scare some slavers off, or Bethany to work her wizarding wiles to convince some apostates that you’re on their side.

    As for the companions themselves: First-off, let me say that I do not understand how the same writer could have written both Varric, and Merrill. The former being the best companion in the game, and the latter being the worst. I could rant on and on how terrible a character Merrill is because of the sheer laziness of her design. She’s not badly-written, she’s just completely unlikeable: close-minded, oblivious, entitled. That, and complete: “you’re the big bad hero in an RPG, make all my decisions for me and save me from myself!” Ergh.

    I like the companions in DAII. They grew on me after a while, Fenris especially. While he looks like he should be wearing skinny jeans in some band singing songs about how being a white person sucks, he’s actually a earnest, interesting fellow, with a back-story that manages to do him justice.
    Of course, the game does pull a massive dick-move in the ending, with one of your companions removing the neutral option from your hands. As much as I dislike the narrative railroading for what it is, it works with the more interesting, well-rounded companions. These aren’t just people who’ll follow your every whim, whine a little bit about how you’re not doing what they like, then be placated with some chocolate and flowers. They’re all flawed – some more than others, dammit Merrill – but they all have their own passions and interests, and, for once, BioWare doesn’t let you charge in there and have at it with your mind-swaying uber-speech.

    Why can’t you romance Avelline? Because, just like in the real world, sometimes the girl just doesn’t like you that way.

    So keep your “I’m going to save the world” power fantasies. If DAII is the future of BioWare RPG’s, I guess I’m more hopeful than most.

    TL;DR I Liked DAII. These are games and people can have opinions about them, isn’t that wonderful.

    • Nick says:

      You.. you do realise Bioware have done non save the world storline RPGs before this, right?

    • LordUbiquitous says:

      Mass Effect: Commander Shepard is the one person who can save the universe.
      DA:O: You’re the last of the Grey Wardens, and the only one who can stop the Blight from destroying Fereldan.

      I admit, I was being hyperbolic with the “save the world” diatribe, but you’ve gotta admit, those are pretty “world-savey” as far as narratives go. And you’re kidding yourself if you think that they’re going to be putting out any new franchises in the near future. Too much money invested in ME/DA to give them up now.

      Hawke? Hawke is just a person who got mixed up in events. A very skilled, capable person, but just a person nonetheless. Sure, it might feel like Hawke is just an observer to the narrative, but the game gives you enough influence to alter events somewhat. Can’t change the flow of the river, but you can muddy it up a bit.

    • malkav11 says:

      …which ones were those?

    • Archonsod says:

      “I admit, I was being hyperbolic with the “save the world” diatribe, but you’ve gotta admit, those are pretty “world-savey” as far as narratives go.”

      Hmm.

      Shattered Steel – Save humanity from extinction at the hands of aliens
      Baldur’s Gate – Prevent the resurrection of Bhaal and end the Bhaalspawn war.
      MDK 2 – Prevent the destruction of Earth
      Neverwinter Nights – save the world from the return of one of the Creator races
      KotOR – Save the galaxy from the machinations of Revan (or fulfil them if you go the evil route)
      Jade Empire – Save the world from the undead
      Mass Effect – Save the galaxy from the Reapers
      DA : O – Save the world from the blight.
      Sonic Chronicles – Save the world from the Twilight Zone.

    • JKjoker says:

      wasnt Baldur’s Gate’s plot “stop the dude trying to kill you” ?, it was a personal story

      same goes to BG2 and Torment, unless you are going to pull the “if left unchecked the Transcended one and the baldur’s gate baddies might have eventually targeted the world” card, but then everything has a saving the world plot

    • Archonsod says:

      Baldur’s Gate was originally planned as a trilogy, the story spans both games (ToB became an expansion rather than a new game). And I’m pretty sure Sarevok explains his motivations for trying to kill you in the first, which are exactly the same reasons the Bhaalspawn war takes place. As he tells you at the start of ToB, he wanted to take your place as the God of Murder.

      And Torment wasn’t Bioware.

    • Cradok says:

      None of the BG series is actually about saving the world. What the bad guys want to do is to become the new God of Murder… something which the average inhabitant of Faerun probably wouldn’t even notice. Once whomever it was who managed it actually attained Godhood, they couldn’t just go on a rampage, much like the both the original Bhaal and his replacement Cyric never did, because all the various gods keep each other in check. In fact, all of the villans in BG are probably better to have as the God of Murder than Cyric is, since Cyric is incredibly insane, and would eventually be responsible for the Spellplague..

      The only real world threatening enemy in BG was Demogorgon, and it was your fault if he gets out.

  80. 4xis.black says:

    Has anyone ever tried to do an ‘in medias res’ thing where the way you respond to the characters you meet branches the storyline backwards? I know ME2 gives you the interrogation scene to set up the events of the previous game, but I am thinking of something that happens throughout the course of play.

  81. Thursday says:

    “The most hilariously daft aspect of these three year comas must be the man queuing up to see the Viscount, who moans every time you walk past him that he’s been waiting all day.”

    Frankly, I was more curious why my bitter elf buddy never bothered to change the corpses in his hallway for six years. Ew.

  82. SekraN says:

    I beat the game in 22 hours on HARD difficulty (first playthrough) while doing every single quest I could find, because despite the game’s many flaws I still found it somewhat enjoyable. Let me add that probably 5 hours of that time was spent AFKing in the city..
    I agree with almost everything that you’ve said here; Decent game? Yes. DA:Kirkwall? Yes! Huge disappointment? Absolutely. Comon Bioware what happened to the imagination that I’ve so long enjoyed from your games? The game feels tremendously rushed, similar to ME2.
    Guess there’s nothing left to do but beat it with an Archer Rogue on Nightmare now!

  83. DJ Phantoon says:

    Huh? NO ONE ELSE had issues with the implied rape quest? Was it just me that thought that was what they were getting at, or did I read too much into it?

    My real problem with it, was that it felt half-assed to cash in. I mean, you fight the guys at the end, sure. But wait. That’s not a satisfying ending. Especially because it straight up TELLS you it’s not the end. In fact, we made bigger problems than we solved! It couldn’t have said “BUY THE DLC” harder had a guy walked into my camp and said “you must buy the DLC to do this que-” wait they already did that.

    I’m glad I’m not the only person who found the combat even more boring this time around. I mean I know Mages were more powerful than all the other classes, but did every fight have to scale with level? Maybe it’s because I’m used to Dungeons and Dragons, but when I reach high level, I want to have catastrophic spells that mean I don’t even blink at normal humans anymore. For as varied as it was supposed to be, it still felt like a letdown.

    Really didn’t like the ending. Really, really didn’t like it. Maybe I’m just spoiled because I remember how good Deus Ex was (hell, I replayed it again less than a month ago) and just seem to expect that level of polish from a gigantic company with tons of money to throw into development.

  84. Wizardry says:

    After reading opinion pieces on Dragon Age II, I’ve realised that many people are holding Dragon Age: Origins up to be a classic of the genre. Some are criticising Dragon Age II for not being as good as Dragon Age: Origins. So, am I the only one here who thought Dragon Age: Origins was itself a really poor RPG?

    I feel like I can’t connect at all with the majority of gamers here. Many people are arguing about the quality of the plot or the quality of the characters, when both are trademark BioWare. Others are arguing about which combat system is the best, while both are shallow and MMO inspired.

    Shouldn’t we want far more from our CRPGs? BioWare games feel completely static and lifeless. The only effect you can have on the world is often through scripted dialogue choices. The amount of non-combat abilities and world interaction is next to zero. BioWare are so blatantly pushing their cinematic, story-driven approach far enough that the underlying CRPG mechanics have become paper-thin.

    Does anyone else feel the same way?

    • Wulf says:

      Nope, don’t have those feelings, sorry.

      In fact, if Bioware actually had a really great story there, along with a unique setting, then I’d be completely behind the story-driven experience. 100 per cent! One thing I say and will keep saying is that Bioware need to hire more writers and imagineers, people to come up with crazy stuff for their games.

      Mass Effect 2 though had some genuinely original moments. Legion in and of himself being one of them. That’s why I tend to praise Mass Effect 2 as the best thing wot Bioware ever did, bar nothing.

    • Wizardry says:

      I don’t really care about the story, setting and characters of a computer game. That’s what books are for. As long as BioWare games are marketed as CRPGs I will judge them as CRPGs, comparing the quality of their RPG elements with those in all the other CRPGs that I have played in my life time.

      The combat systems in their games have moved far away from that of traditional RPG combat. The importance of player skill has grown relative to character skill. Non-scripted simulation elements have declined massively. Cut-scenes are far more common in their games. Freedom of movement and actions is almost non-existent in their new games. Party control has diminished significantly.

    • viverravid says:

      Sorry, can’t agree.
      I’m a big fan of most of Bioware’s games but this one felt like a big letdown. It is fun – especially if you play it as an action hack’n'slash, kinda like fantasy ME2, rather than as a traditional pause’n'play – but it isn’t up to snuff for Bioware.
      There have been lots of complaints about game mechanics, but classic rpgs like Planescape Torment had a lot of the same issues (fixed companion armor, fixed race and name for protagonist, re-use maps for minor areas, mostly in one city, slow story start full of fetch quests etc etc).
      DA2 fails mainly because the story doesn’t really work. Too many gaping holes, lack of overall narrative arc. This makes the various annoyances much more annoying.

    • Wizardry says:

      Why are you comparing it to Planescape: Torment like it’s the most typical RPG? Planescape: Torment had countless flaws and relied purely on the quality of its writing to make it a classic. It had quite a lot of statistical checks during conversations, but other than that it shared the highly restricted environmental interactivity with the rest of the Infinity Engine games, yet had shocking combat.

      Planescape: Torment is not a great example. Why point out that because Planescape: Torment is a shit CRPG outside of its dialogue, Dragon Age II is “allowed” to be? That’s just terrible. How about those hundreds of CRPGs that didn’t have a fixed protagonist?

      If you line up all CRPGs on the strength of their CRPG mechanics, BioWare games would rank rather low. The Baldur’s Gate series would most likely be ranked highest out of the BioWare games.

  85. Phoenix says:

    I did every single sidequest I could, all the compantion sidequests that were offered to me, and at the end my savefile says 22 and a half hours. I did not miss “huge sections” of the game, I’ve checked walkthroughs and read forums, and no one has referred to any bit of questing I haven’t done. I played the entire game on Casual, and if switching the difficulty to Normal will double the playtime I’d rather not, considering the times I did bump it up, all it did was increase the health of the mobs, and the damage they did.

  86. somnolentsurfer says:

    I would love for this to have been the proper Dragon Age 2 John describes if even a few of these issues were properly addressed. I don’t see any reason why a game set in a single city can’t have the same epic scope that DAO had. I’d love to see a DA game that travels in time rather than geography the way this was clearly imagined to, but I want to be walking round Liberty City, not Kirkwall: an open environment, populated with a serious number of real people going about their daily lives. I want to see the epic scope as the city changes over time, with buildings coming and going, seasons, weather – even just characters ageing or changing their clothes would be nice.

    I’ve not finished DA2 yet, but from what I’ve played it is in many ways an astonishingly good game. The combat mechanics (if not the tactical element) are massively improved. Visually it’s a whole other level from DA, with places like the Deep Roads, for all their repetition, showing a level of imagination in visual design that was entirely absent from Origins. The Mass Effect style conversations add drama where the original felt oddly flat. The skill trees are more refined, and addition of relationship dependant skills makes it feel like conversations are having a genuine effect on gameplay. The stat screens are laid out so much more clearly, with the effect of every point and item made obvious. And the storytelling is wonderfully ambitious. I’d love to see the framed narrative thing executed well. I don’t see the need John does for a setting in the past to destroy my sense of agency. Broken Sword and Sands of Time both coped fine.

    For all that though, it does somewhat feel like Bioware have become something of a victim of their own success recently. They write these stories of epic scope set in massive worlds, and then give us narrow corridors to walk down, with invisible walls on either side. They create these epic games, giving us freedoms we’ve never had before, and changes that actually carry over between games and the like, and then they put out DLC that doesn’t respect things we did in the main game. And when a sequel, like this one, is a little more conventional, it can’t be anything other than a massive disappointment.

  87. JiminyJickers says:

    When I played the game the first time as a good warrior, I absolutley loved it. I thought it was awesome, apart from the repeated environments.

    But once I started a second game as a evil mage, I realised how little the game changed. As soon as I tried a different path from the previous play through, I saw that a lot of choice was just illusion.

    Even though I enjoyed it, I now realise that there is defintely a lot missing, a hell of a lot. I now agree with most of what John says whereas before I would have shaken an grumbling disagreement fist.

  88. solowd says:

    DA2 was going to be called Dragon Age: Exodus. Someone (not me) went into the game files and found an icon for the original title: http://mod.gib.me/dragonage2/exodus.png

    Just thought this was interesting, since it’s related to a criticism that the author brings up.

  89. Prospero424 says:

    I agree with just about everything the article lays out as negatives about DAII, but I think it overlooks the most important complaint out there:

    It’s not an RPG. It’s a hack-and-slash game with a very involved story.

    And that’s fine if that’s what people want! I just don’t like people referring to it as an “RPG” simply out of tradition or because that’s what Bioware calls it. The fact is that you, as the player, no longer get to choose the role you will play. Period.

    RPGs have been heading down this road for a while (many complained that DA:O had stripped out too many of the traditional western RPG elements), but this “sequel” has winnowed it down to the point that the term becomes completely meaningless if applied to this game. It’s not just a lack of character class or race options, anymore, it’s a lack of your choices having ANY appreciable impact on the story or the environment beyond the deliberately (and manipulative) superficial.

    And like John: it’s not even that I disliked the game when taken on its own merits. It’s just that if I wanted to play the Bioware equivalent to Assassin’s Creed, I wouldn’t have bought the “sequel” to a VERY different game and I wouldn’t have bought something that is labelled an “RPG” when it clearly is not.

    I forgave this tendency of diminishing traditional RPG elements when it came to Mass Effect 2 because it’s suitably epic in scale and because there was still a lot of freedom of exploration and major story elements hung on crucial decisions. But They’ve simply taken it too far for DAII. The series, the company, and indeed the entire industry are the worse for the very poor choices they made in this regard.

    They’ve taken out too many actual role-playing elements to go on calling their products “RPGs” or even “Action RPGs”. They need to take it back in the opposite direction or they need to just come clean and admit that they just want to make action games with good stories. People would be fine with that.

    • Archonsod says:

      The same has been true of every computer RPG ever. The closest I think you could get to a non-hack n slash RPG would be the Sims, and then only because it has no combat.

    • snickersnack says:

      You can’t make any meaningful decisions in Ultima 4. Does that mean Ultima 4 is not a RPG?

    • Wizardry says:

      Choices impacting the story is still a new development in CRPGs. While some CRPGs before Fallout did it, Fallout popularised it.

      I have no idea why people now think choices impacting the story suddenly makes something a CRPG. A choose your own adventure book does this. What Fallout did was to take the fundamental element of the genre (character statistics determining how your character affects the world and how the world affects your character) and add this to the dialogue choices that had existed for a decade in the genre. The result was completely different conversations for different character types. Fallout’s low intelligence dialogue was an example of this.

      CRPGs made before Fallout are still CRPGs. They just don’t have as strong mechanics in their dialogue. Ultima V, for example, didn’t have any skill checks during dialogue. However, Ultima V had many elements to it that Fallout completely ignored, such as a stronger emphasis on a day/night cycle, strong NPC scheduling, a variety of transportation, food and the physical manipulation of most objects.

    • Prospero424 says:

      “The same has been true of every computer RPG ever.”

      Comments like this make me question whether you’ve even played any good RPGS before. Hell, it makes me question whether you’ve even played any Bioware games before. I defy anyone to play DAII, then go back and play every RPG they’ve made until this one and then come back and insist that the impact of decision making hasn’t been significantly diminished. To deny this is to deny a very obvious reality.

      But for the sake of a cogent argument, we can even skip over the importance of player decisions on the plot and environment, because that’s just a single element of what has traditionally constituted an role-playing game. I’ll say that an even more important element has been diminished, as well, and that’s the ability of the player to at least somewhat determine what perspective they approach the game and the story from, be it an alignment, a race, a guild membership, etc. ALL of that has been stripped form Dragon Age II. All of it. Now the only impact you have on your own character’s perspective is what line of dialog they spew before it inevitably takes you to the same exact conclusion to the conversation you’d get no matter what dialog choice you’d made.

      The role your character plays in not only the main story of the game (which has always been somewhat preordained in other RPGs), but also in nearly every NPC interaction, every community involvement, and every side quest is completely linear and completely dictated by the authors. There is no meaningful freedom to craft a unique, impactful character left in the game.

      It’s an action game with skill progressions and a good story. IF that’s what you want in a game, more power to you! All I ask is that gamers not go around fooling themselves into thinking the Big Mac sitting in front of them is a Kobe beef porterhouse steak just because the proprietor tells them it is.

  90. bluebogle says:

    To the author, if you care to answer:

    Do you think the short development time is at fault here? Could it have been improved with a much longer time allotted to it?

  91. Saul says:

    Completely agree with everything you’ve said, John. I didn’t love the first game like you did, but I liked it a hell of a lot more than this one.

    Like you, I loved what they said this game was going to be: a single character in a single place, evolving over time. But the execution is just abomindable.

  92. bv728 says:

    The game was apparently internally referred to as ‘Dragon Age: Rise to Power’ but got offically called Dragon Age II midway through development – originally, there wasn’t going to be a ‘Dragon Age II’ for a while, because it was all going to be slightly shorter stories which slowly flesh out why this is really the Dragon Age.

  93. JKjoker says:

    Merrill’s “NPC quest” is a perfect example of how crappy the whole plot and quest writing is, go back to Baldur’s gate 2, DAO, Kotor, hell, even NWN1 & 2, in a situation just like Merrill’s you would get a chance to talk her down from doing it with maybe 2 or 3 resolutions to the quest

    But not in Dragon Age 2, no talking her down from doing something so incredibly stupid with nothing, NOTHING to gain, and after that ? no effect on the world and in my case she didnt even care because she was still brooding about the previous stupid thing she did and i was not given an option to stop, i was not even given the chance to tell her “i warned you, the others warned you, the keeper warned you, you are so stuuuuuupid!, soooooooooooooooooo stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid!!!!!!!”

    and then the NPC Betrayal mentioned in the review happens, my choices made me the biggest and most powerful ally that NPC would ever find in the city, why not telling me ? why not asking me for input ? and wtf did he/she kill most of the ppl he/she was trying to save ? genius!

    its hard not thinking this game is a blatant cash in with all its DLCs, the timeless unchanging copy and paste locations and the reuse of DAO assets/plot/characters, when it fails to fart out ANYTHING new and worthwhile, ooh lookie there, cameo from the first game characters, eh ? eh ?

    the Templar vs Mage plot was already heavy handed in DAO but there it was a very small part of the game and even at that it was much better explained and ambiguous, here abominations are thrown at you so often they start to feel like faceless mooks, why fear the things if your average adventurer can kill hundreds without breaking a sweat ? all while you are constantly being slapped over the head with “mages are dangerous!” “templars are evil” “mages always resort to blood magic” “templars push mages into blood magic” blah blah blah (thats 80% of the plot right there)

    why taking up blood magic is ignored, does not involve a contract with a demon and does not allow me to do half the things other blood mages are constantly doing ?, i want to summon abominations too, hell i want to be one

    and wtf was it with the ending big npcs ? i took the same side as Walker, then i obliterated my enemies with my pinky finger, suddenly, without any reason, my big ally flips his shit and turns into an abomination … right at your side … and guess who gets to kill it ?, it could at least help me with the last battle before turning on me, at least that would make some sense, wtf man

    • snickersnack says:

      The Dalish are a fraud. They’ve lost almost all their lore and have become mortal. They’re pretty much proud alienage elves with tattoos on their faces pretending to be their ancestors.The eluvian is a relic from arlathan. If it could be reactivated, perhaps much could be regained (an intact city? arlathan itself?). It’s worth substantial risk, though perhaps not the life of one of the very few magically gifted elves remaining. Marethari had already lost at least two elves to this mirror and is too protective of Merrill to help her do what needs to be done.

      Fenarel “The keeper loved her, more than the clan it seems”.

      My dalish origin rogue wanted to strangle Duncan when he broke it.

    • JKjoker says:

      “perhaps much could be regained (an intact city? arlathan itself?). It’s worth substantial risk”

      she doesnt know what she is doing or what is going to happen when she fixes it, in fact she barely has a vague idea of what it is, all you get told is that it was a communication device, and fixing that is going to help how ?

      Lets say the demon did not lie to her, it is a communication device, in the best case all she is going to get in the other side is another eluvian forgotten in a dungeon somewhere or in the house of some rich collector of elven junk, thats the BEST possible outcome, it only goes down from there, wtf would you waste you time on that ?

  94. JohnnyMaverik says:

    I enjoyed this article immensely. But I have a few very minor bones to pick with it, and I’m in a bad mood so I feel like complaining. There’s your disclaimer, here’s the complaints:

    1. “Once you’d removed the details relevant to someone’s playing the weaker 360 version”

    It did come out of PS3 as well, that should read console version.

    2.. Praising it for being 40 hours.

    “The average full price cross-platform coming out today has about eight hours of single player content.”

    Yes but how long is the average full price cross-platform RPG coming out these days? I haven’t played them all by any stretch of the imagination but 20-30 hours sounds like a fair bet based on the ones I have played and the ones I haven’t but have read and talked a great deal about.

    There’s also the issue of the obvious combat padding which people have mentioned already in the comments, with the enemy waves and recycled areas, but I don’t think the padding is the issue. DAO had tons of padding, all RPG’s have tons of padding, Dragon Age 2 just doesn’t hide it very well, or at times even bother to try. (Note: This last bit about the padding is in response to the comments holding it up as a reason you can’t praise the game for being 40 hours, not anything in the article itself).

    3. “here we have people that rival Mass Effect’s Ashley Williams for the personality of a sponge cake.”

    I thought Ashley Williams was one of Mass Effect’s (for me this is Mass Effect 1 only, cuz I got her killed and have no idea what she’s like in or if she even ever turns up in 2).

    While I disagreed with her politically, philosophically and spiritually, I never found her to be an unpleasant character, in fact the opposite, I liked her, I liked talking to her, I just found her views on the universe rather distasteful. Which I thought was great, because contrasted with Kaidan, he’s the character you’re meant to want to help, troubled up bringing, has been wronged when he was in no position to defend himself, a character that wants to do the right thing, but is also a massive yawn to chat to, so when I was choosing which to save, I had to do it with either my Spectre’s hat on, or my friendly cap on, I put on the Specre’s cap, nice girl, spacism could have been a liability.

    That is of course an opinion, feel free to disagree but I’m never sure if people who complain about Ashley being a bad character are doing so because in their minds it’s “spacist = bad, Ashley = spacist., Ashley = bad” or because they genuinely disliked her character in it’s entirety.

    4. No that’s it, I had another complaint but it’s gone now and I’m feeling much more cheerful so I can’t be arsed to try and remember it.

    On the whole a great article, enjoyed reading it immensely and agree with almost everything. It’s articles like this that keep me coming back to this site day after day.

  95. malkav11 says:

    A nitpick: Blood magic is not inviting a demon to inhabit you.

    There are two verybadthings mages can do, as far as the Chantry is concerned (and much of the rest of the world, for that matter):
    1) Blood magic. This involves fueling the casting with life force, either yours or that of other beings. There’s a couple of reasons this is frowned on. For one, ritually sacrificing people (and animals, for that matter) generally doesn’t go over well even when it’s -not- for spellcasting. Secondly, some effects can (apparently) only be achieved through blood magic, such as mind control and killing people through their dreams. These are generally scary things, but the Chantry particularly dislikes the mind control bit because of the “mages exist to serve the people, not people to serve mages” credo.
    2) Being possessed by a spirit from the Fade, generally a demon. This creates an abomination, something which is supposedly very potent as a threat (except near a videogame protagonist) and in the case of demons, malevolent. Abominations typically like to kill people and/or make more abominations. (Summoning demons, also not something most people approve of.)

    For some reason DA2 conflates blood magic and demons virtually without exception. It’s annoying. FWIW, the way you learned blood magic in the first game was a deal with a demon, as it’s difficult to come by a teacher when it’s so universally anathema. Same with Merrill. But it doesn’t inherently involve demon interaction, much less possession.

    • JKjoker says:

      learning blood magic requires a contract with a demon/spirit (except if your char does it in DA2, you need the contract in DAO to unlock it), the game says so again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

    • viverravid says:

      Specializations in DA2 sucked mightily (story-wise, not the actual skills).

      In DA:O you had a story justification for each specialization you could learn. The blood magic one was particularly good. In DA2 you click in a box and magically know stuff.

    • Anthile says:

      Erm, I think you can also learn Blood Magic from the Tevinter mage when you investigate in the Elven alienage.

    • JKjoker says:

      the skills sucked too, in hard all spells relying on knockback (like the whole force specialization) are useless because 90% of the enemies are inmune to it (i never went down to normal except for the long as hell golem and high dragon fights but im guessing it also has a high quantity of knockback inmune chars), the healing specialization was annoying to use and pointless when the game was fixed to keep your 3 basic potions above 5 (try it, spend them all, youll find a potion or two in everything you open until you are back to 5), and the blood mage specialization requires you to throw away 5 (or was it 7 ? cant remember) points in useless skills to access an slightly above average area spell (which a fully upgraded firestorm beats both in damage and area size) and a the puppet spell that is not worth the 5 other spells you could be spamming instead (specially when the worst enemy of mages is the cooldown time of the spells, many weak spells is better than a single powerful one when enemies attack in respawning hordes)

      in nightmare it goes even further making almost everyone either inmune or very resistant to everything and if by weird chance, you manage to pull a status effect, it lasts half a second (most of the time you cant use cross class combos because they last less than the casting animations)

      edit: @Anthile: the wiki says otherwise http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Connor “The two blood mages you run into will offer you power. The Tevinter mage in the alienage (the only blood mage to be found there) offers to slay the rest of the elven slaves in sacrifice to you that will grant you a large gain in physical prowess (and I read somewhere it’s only temporary as well). It doesn’t teach you to be a Blood Mage. Also, the Blood Mage who leads the Cabal in the back alleys offers to use his expertise similarly, but neither teaches you didly doo. The Desire Demon is IT”, you can learn with some mods and i think one of the DLCs sells a book that also teaches it

    • viverravid says:

      In DA2 the blood mage spec only works properly for NPCs. PC armor requires the WIllpower stat, which is totally useless for a blood mage built correctly. All sustains use a percentage of your total mana, and sustains are the only use bloodmages have for mana.

      If you build Merril maximising Magic and Constitution, and equip her with all the +Blood Magic items, she becomes an unstoppable tank who can nuke.

      A PC mage is restricted to either crap gear or crap Constitution, which destroys the whole point of the class (way more mana to nuke with in exchange for higher risk of death).

    • JKjoker says:

      just drink mana potions, the cooldowns prevent you from really abusing blood magic and the game will give you potions if you spend them (ive never ran out of them and i used them all the time, i ran into having to wait for the cooldown for the mana potion but i fixed that by increasing willpower a little)

    • Archonsod says:

      “i think one of the DLCs sells a book that also teaches it”

      Nah, that was in Awakenings.

  96. FrankGrimes says:

    I find it amusing that this article starts off by tripping all over itself to tell everyone that DA2 is not really a bad game…and then spends the next 10 paragraphs telling us what a failure it is. It’s almost as if people just can’t come to grips with the fact that Bioware made a terrible game, so they find clever ways to deal with the cognitive dissonance.

    Dragon Age 2 is the first Bioware game I won’t be buying…and I’ve been buying them since 1998′s Baldur’s Gate. It’s really…a shame.

    • Aemony says:

      What would you expect? The whole point of the article is to analyze and evaluate what went wrong in the game, which means it has no intention at all to discuss what went right, or how the game overall is more than the sum of its parts. DA:II is at worst a mediocre RP experience (which says a lot since it comes from BioWare) but it isn’t anywhere near a failure or a terrible RPG if you exclude BioWare and Dragon Age: Origins from your equation.

      Going by the industry’s standard ratings scale (where 7 is average/mediocre) the game is a 7/10. If you’d use an objectively ratings scale the game is around a 5/10.

    • JKjoker says:

      Bioware’s “can do no wrong” extremely long honeymoon period ended with mass effect 2, and it got worse with DA2, you can see this kind of conflicting opinions in any gaming forum, it will be interesting to watch the sparks fly with TOR

    • Archonsod says:

      Bioware’s do no wrong ended with their cookie cutter escapades of the NWN – KotOR – Jade Empire era, where you could pretty much predict the party members (annoyingly cute kid, strong and silent dude, evil but cool with it guy) and the plot (save the world/planet/home baking sale in three acts, with the middle split into three sections you can take on in the order you choose).

    • JKjoker says:

      oh, i agree, most of the rest of the world didnt (at least not until me2, pro magazines seem to still be in it tho, the >90 reviews for DA2 are inexcusable)

  97. Grey says:

    Call me crazy, but my eyes always fell on Bethany. Screw Bioware, I want her. ~_~

  98. Aemony says:

    I felt stupid when I was doing Zevran’s quest and heared and saw The Crows’ response to me capturing him: “Now, while you are still in possession of Zevran and he is unbound and untied, WE WILL TURN ON YOU BOTH!”

    This is the thinking that goes through The Crows’ heads the whole time according to my playthrough and interpretation of the events: “Since we were unable to catch Zevran ourselves we hire Hawke to do it for us, since she’s capable enough to do it. Then, when Hawke arrives with Zevran free as a bird by her side we will turn and kill them both, because they can’t obviously kick our asses together, right?! Alone they could, but together? Naaah, it isn’t possible.”

    Great friggin plan, right?!

    God… That writing was such a ♥♥♥♥ing letdown. Btw, I was aggressive towards Zevran and intended from the get-go to hand him over or at least kill him myself. Turns out I didn’t get the choice of neither… Damn game…

  99. Anthile says:

    I’m not quite I understand the annoyance about the gameplay/story segregation of being a blood mage and the reactions you get (or rather, don’t get), mainly because it’s exactly how DA:O did it. It was incredibly jarring when you did some quest and Alastair and Wynne tell everyone how much they despise blood magic and your Warden goes like “Woah, look what I can do with my arteries” seconds after that without any kind response. Not to mention that you can make Wynner herself a blood mage and Alastair a reaver (which is closely related if not outright blood magic). Not only is it incredibly immersion-breaking but it’s also wasted potential. I think the using-dark-powers-for-a-good-cause trope (and the inverse) is very interesting and it’s even mentioned in that one DLC with the fortress that some of the wardens in ye olden days openly used blood magic in order to defeat the darkspawn. Simply some talk with Alistair about whether you can actually handle blood magic and you can tell him it’s alright ’cause you’re the main character you’re just that good. Why not even have him promise to kill you in case you turn into an abomination – just a few lines would have done a lot to improve on that issue.
    In DA2 it’s even worse as you learn all this stuff without any kind of teacher, manual or introduction, which somehow made the disconnect even worse than in DA:O. You can become a templar without ever going through actual templar training, without the local templars knowing about it, without becoming a lyrium junkie, without any of your mage friends (who are all apostates) commenting on it and last but not least, you actually become part of one of the two main factions without that it has any impact on the situation. It’s absolutely impossible that Hawke can be a templar without everyone knowing. Who would have trained him?

    This leads me to tell you lot how I feel about DA2. I don’t think the game that is known as Dragon Age 2 was ever supposed to be a proper sequel to Origins. I think it was originally planned as some kind of expanquelone™. Now, I don’t have any proper evidence for this claim but there is just so much that seems to speak for this theory: the really short development time, the fact that the game runs out of environments and enemies after chapter one, the whole half-assed timeskip-flashback narrative that feel like it’s simply there to justify that you have to run through every goddamn area at least three times, the way too many fights, the endless boss battles – all of that feel it’s just there to distract from the lack of actual content that was simply not enough for a full game. Not to mention that, for a sequel, the game doesn’t explain a lot about the setting or anything and if you haven’t played DA:O you will most likely be completely lost about what is going on. Call it a conspiracy theory or whatever but this is what I believe.
    Overall, I liked DA2 better than DA:O and in the end, both games are more light than shadow but with so many glaring issues that seem absolutely unnecessary and, in hindsight, easily avoidable.

    • Archonsod says:

      It’s a concession made to gameplay, the alternative would be to make the game unplayable if the player opted to go down that route or simply not to have the option.

      It’s not really worth picking DA2 up on it though, it’s been a problem inherent in RPG’s since D&D decided all you needed to learn how to haggle better was to duff up a couple of goblins (and don’t get me started on the 1st edition rules whereby you could accumulate experience simply by acquiring gold. All you needed to achieve Godhood was to pass a purse of gold coins around the party repeatedly).

      Some systems avoid it, like those that improve skills by use as seen in The Elder Scrolls (or Call of Cthulhu in the P&P system) but they bring new problems to the table, like allowing characters to effectively become experts in everything.

    • kongming says:

      “It’s a concession made to gameplay, the alternative would be to make the game unplayable if the player opted to go down that route or simply not to have the option.”

      Uhh, nice false dichotomy. They could also have put five seconds of thought into how the game’s plot and the game’s mechanics can actually be related in some way and make it so that it’s a meaningful choice which is explored in the story and character dialogues.

  100. thebigJ_A says:

    Hang on, wait. Anders isn’t funny anymore?

    Why would they do that? In Awakenings he was like an immoral Alistair, and I loved him for it.

    Dammit. Now I’m definitely not playing this. (Which makes me cry. I loved Origins.)

  101. rhade2k@gmail.com says:

    It’s a bit odd. I agree with most of this, but I still think that DA2 is one of my favorite RPGs of all time. I guess the things that bother you just doesn’t bother me as much, or maybe I appreciated the things that I actually liked enough to make up for all the silly things in the game. The whole concept of the game just suits my personality. One thing I found was that I couldn’t for the life of me make myself play female Hawke, even though in all other RPGs I play female characters. The… swagger? of the female animation is completely ridiculous. It’s horrifying to look at, especially for 40 odd bloody hours.

  102. Maldomel says:

    Well it comforts me in my choice, I will not pick up DA2 now, and I will not finish Awakening. I will simply wait for The Witcher 2 to come out, and enjoy what will hopefully be a really good RPG in a fantasy setting, just like DA2 should have been.

  103. bill says:

    All John’s complaints may be valid, except the one that seems to say “it doesn’t start and isn’t told like a traditional cRPG”.
    It may not be well told, or it may not live up to it’s goals, but I don’t think that, in and of itself, you can complain that it doesn’t start you with the family in peacefull times, and that it throws you in part way. Or that it gives you a set family and npcs you can’t influence/choose.

    cRPGs need to break out of the stifling mould that they’re in, where we must always build and create our character from scratch and through their adventures in a linear leveling structure.
    Jumping in to pre-defined characters, learning about them as we go, finding out we’re mistaken about them, or running into plot twists in the narration are all things that occur in other media and I don’t think we should be complaining about cRPGs attempting to make use of them.
    Maybe they didn’t pull it off, but it’s nice that they tried.

    We already have enough standard cRPGs, so there’s room for ones that don’t fit people’s expectations. There’s also room for sequels that don’t follow the exact pattern of their forebears. And there’s definitely room for sub 40 hour cRPGs.

    What there is never room for is respawning enemies as filler.

  104. DigitalEccentric says:

    “They’re all valid points; mages are indeed dangerous, but it’s not their fault they’re mages so it doesn’t seem morally right to lock them up.”

    I got this, beleive me I got this – but again, this point is completely invalidated by the fact that they nearly all turn on you. A blood mage kills your mum, a mage who you helped years ago randomly decides she hates you and nearly kills your sister, the first enchanter, Anders… time after time after time you’re faced with the reality that yes, mages are dangerous, but it’s implied that they WILL always turn on you because, for this game at least, they always do!

    How can you make a choice when the game presents such a reality? The only reason your sister doesn’t turn evil is because there’s a choice you can make early on in the game that seems to get her killed as well, so her role post-Deep Roads is trviliased to the point of she might as well no exist.

    “And that’s before you look at how much Templar oppression is behind mages turning to blood magic in the first place.”

    True, but you know what? I would love to have seen a mage resist the Templars without using Blood Magic… that was the third option this game seriously lacked.

    But it was Anders that was the last straw for me I think. I could put up with all the other stuff and maintain the “Not all mages are evil line”, but then Anders, who wasn’t even possessed, decides to blow up the Chantry. For me that was 9/11 scale terrorism and you don’t just forgive that shit.

    Saying that, I chose to anyway, because at the end of the day the game was set up so that, if you wanted to be “good”, you had to forgive him.

    • snickersnack says:

      Forgiving Anders makes you good?! Damn! I was seriously considering killing him until Sebastian started threatening me. Sending “mr turning back on starkhaven for a life of the cloth” priest boy into a murderous rage was worth it! ;D

    • Furtled says:

      Maybe I’m just too trusting but my read on the sheer volume of mages turning to blood magic and/or attacking was entirely down to the way Kirkwall ran its Circle. I mean the Knight Commander should be aware that a disproportionate number of Templars are killing, raping, Tranquilising and abusing their charges or she and Cullen really shouldn’t have their jobs.

      Cullen makes a valid point about ‘the image of the poor downtrodden mage being a powerful one’ but when it’s actually the truth (as set-up in game) it’s hard to justify murdering them all in the name of law and order (and a suddenly obviously crazy womans rant).

      They don’t all turn on you do they? Pretty sure there’s Alain, Emile, Nellie (? I think – the one from Ander’s quest) and obviously Bethany, agreed on the third way being lacking though. Thrask seemed to represent that, but given the way the game played out that was cut out before it could have any real impact.

    • Ian says:

      “True, but you know what? I would love to have seen a mage resist the Templars without using Blood Magic… that was the third option this game seriously lacked.”

      This. A million times this. I can sort of see that a mage cornered and taken by surprise who knew how blood magic worked might just go, “Oh fuck it…” But in the case of Orsino in particular you’re in a defensible position. The Templars don’t, I believe, have the means to come and knock the damn building down so they run the risk of just throwing soldiers into the meat grinder, funnelling them toward one or a small number of points of entry where you can just continue to blast them with fire, freeze them, electrocute them, cause them to have mental breakdowns or destroy them in any number of ways. There was zero point in Orsino going Team Demon when he did aside from that Bioware made every stressed out mage (near enough) a mentalist so that the decision between “murder everyone” and “not murder everyone” wouldn’t seem to clear.

  105. Furtled says:

    Fully agreed on throwing the player into the oddest point of the story to start, especially when I think back to the emotional impact the Couseland intro in Origins managed and the mage blindspot in a city full of Templars was just too odd.

    Didn’t mind the major twist moment that kicks the end off myself since I get that they were going for events being bigger than any one person; but like you say there were too many weaknesses in the plot before that to really make it a difficult decision – never mind the options are possibly dangerous or clearly gone insane. I hate having to go back to Origins for comparison but they used the same plot device better and with more reason, making it a much more difficult decision.

    My biggest gripe though was throughout the game I felt nothing I did as a player had any impact on the game world beyond the odd superficial difference in dialogue. Take the pedophile you mention, I was expecting some sort of political comeback from my decision – but there was nothing, that and the almost static (and oddly empty for a place ‘overflowing’ with refugees) city, exploding waves of enemies, lack of companion interaction and re-used maps just left it feeling soulless.

    There’s the makings of an amazing game/story buried under DA2′s mess but by rushing it through Bioware really let themselves down.

  106. Emme says:

    First off …I loved DA:O. I played it without reading the hype or help guides first, and spent 3 months of free time being totally absorbed by the story line; the interactions, and the ability to change the various responses to my choices with my character. I played through it 6 times.

    That said…..Now on to DA2.

    The first thing that struck me was….. who the heck are these people? I agree that being dropped onto a killing field with some supposed family is a shocker. There is no bonding time beofer one of my siblings gets offed. I am trying to give the game a fair chance to impress me on it’s own merit but honestly I am disappointed.
    It there really only one style of cave? I am not impressed that it only varies from encounter to encounter by the “magic” sliding doors that open up to the areas that are clearly displayed on the map. I feel this is poor.
    I honestly preferred Sten’s Qunari model over the new one that resembles shiny molded foam. I might be more accepting to thenew model with a little less shine. The new elves look totally stretched out and seem even more disproportionate. However, these are things that I accept as being user preferences. I am finding that several newer games have included a great deal of shine to their graphics and it sometimes takes away from the realisim of the item. (to me… I know many peeps out here love that effect)

    So far I’ve resetarted the game 3 times and am still in the first act. I decided to pass on tossing Anders a totally inappropriate gesture of interest….. he kills his buddy …allows everyone to see Justice and I tell him “hey babe you are sexy hot?” . Cheaply agressive. Not subtle. Not even compassionate for his turmoil. ARGH….

    Well… I will give it another go and hope it hooks me.

  107. elikal says:

    Excellent writeup! I can only fully agree! This article perfectly sums up all my reasons to dislike DA2. What I fear however is, Bioware with selling millions of boxes probably won’t listen to critique. The “all is fine” mentality is all I hear from them. I was really so disappointed from DA2.

  108. formivore says:

    Well, someone posted this article on Bioware’s forum and it did get a brief response from Mike Laidlaw:

    http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/6872167/4

    • CMaster says:

      I don’t actually see which post is a dev post on page 4 linked there.

      Also, good god there is some depressing stupidity in that thread. Lots of people arguing that “it’s obviously a review” because it was about a game on a gaming site and not a “personal blog” or that he mentions “analysis” so it’s clearly a review. The idea of looking at a game critically, looking at some of its interesting parts and yet not attempting to write a buyers guide is apparently unimaginable to them…

    • Flint says:

      What I’m baffled by the most is the amount of people saying that reviews aren’t meant to be subjective. When, uh, saying one’s opinion about the subject at hand is the entire point of reviewing.

  109. bill says:

    Just wondering how this compares to Jade Empire, as i’ve just started playing it and, superficially at least, there sound like some similarities (simplifed mechanics, action-based combat, etc..)

    Also, on the topic of JE and not ME2 at all, if you follow the Path of the Closed Fist does that equate to EVIL or is it more nuanced than that? I heard that closed/open fist was supposed to be less black and white than light/dark side – but so far all the closed fist guys seem to be the bad guy.

    • Erd says:

      Supposedly the open fist is charity which is good in that it helps people but bad in that those people become reliant. The closed fist is kicking puppies and rewarding greed but it promotes self-suffiency and makes others grow through the trials of your evilness.

      In the game, though- light side and dark side.

  110. Nim says:

    if Mage.isBloodMage() {
    Mage.possesByDemon(new Demon(Random));
    Mage.changeModel(Abomination)
    Mage.attack(PC);
    }
    else
    {
    Mage.speakString(“Templars are so evil. Boo”);
    Mage.playAnimation(ANIMATION_CREATURE_NPC_CRYING);
    }

  111. Oddness says:

    You seemed to focus a lot on how the game fell short story-wise, but not enough on the other aspects.

    Improved crafting? There is no crafting. You just scavenger hunt for resources and then order stuff like a medieval version of amazon with faster shipping.

    Refined skill system? There are literally two skills to use – lockpicking and disarming traps (and you can’t even place traps yourself anymore). Persuasion options opened up all kinds of different ways to resolve problems in Origins, relegating the ability to a companion if you happen to have him/her is a terrible substitute. Maybe you could’ve persuaded Orsino not to become an abomination for instance, but you need the actual mechanics in place to allow for that kind of choice.

    Not letting you equip companions with all the armors you find but can’t use yourself; a blatant setup for alternate outfit DLC.

    Locking companions into combat roles so you can’t, say, use Aveline as a 2-hander if you wanted, or Isabela as an archer. What if I want an sword and shield tank but don’t want to take Aveline around because she’s got the personality of a piece of plywood? Origins gave you the flexibility to specialize companions more or less how you wanted within their respective classes.

    There’s just so much wrong with this game it pisses me off just thinking about it.

    • DigitalEccentric says:

      What if Isabela didn’t want to learn Archery?

      I see what you’re saying, but I’m reminded of when people were annoyed you couldn’t be in a homosexual relationship with Tali in Mass Effect 2. In short, Bioware’s answer was – Tali’s not Gay.

      Same thing can be applied here – Isabela doesn’t like bows, Aveline likes using a shield… I don’t mind them taking away some customization from companions, although they’d need something decent replace it, which they haven’t really done in DA2. But I got what they were trying to do with it – the companions are individuals in themselves, with their own personalities, likes, dislikes and all that jazz..

      With that in mind, it would be a bit strange them letting their friend tell them what to wear, and what weapon to use, wouldn’t it?

    • Oddness says:

      Why let us upgrade their stats, choose their abilities when they level up, even take direct control over them? Companions can have their personalities, likes and dislikes, etc… just as they did in Origins, but it shouldn’t spill over into gameplay and trump my ability to customize my party in a party-based RPG. Otherwise they might as well make DA3 a party of one with AI controlled followers like Fallout 3.

  112. DigitalSignalX says:

    BIoware has already confirmed that DA:3 will be based on all the new gameplay elements they’ve used in DA:2 – that is to say, “Expect more of the same.” I’m sure they’ll address the repetitive levels, but it will never be a sequel to Origins in scope.

  113. pipman3000 says:

    good things about dragon age 2

    1. it pissed off homophobic nerds by allowing gay people to exist.
    2. isabella apparently pisses off racist nerds so much they had to release a mod on the nexus to turn her skin lighter and whiter because god forbid hawke date a non-aryan lol man the nexus is one messed up place..
    3. http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6661775&lf=8

    feel free to add your own reasons :)

    • Kaira- says:

      4. Reading the outrage produced by this game and things around it have effectively killed many hours of time I could have used to study into exams and sleeping. Instead I have read forums till 5am. What baffles me most is that I read all those threads although I knew that every single one of them would turn out to be excactly like the other

  114. BERSERKR says:

    Ok first off i have yet to finish the article, but i will, i was enjoying it, as i believe also that its not a bad game, but ti does a few things wrong, but i was sooo PISSED off at something you said i had to post immediately.

    AVELINE is one of the BEST written characters EVER in a Bioware game, what the HELL are you thinking, her voice is BEAUTIFUL, with a dry wit, and along with Verric is the truest friend you have in the game.

    “Threaten my friends, your not going to get away with that one Captain”
    Aveline.

  115. BERSERKR says:

    Also for me DA 2 wasn’t significantly shorter than Dragon age Origins, i beat 2 in 50 hours doing all quests and i beat Origins in 55 hours doing ALL quests.

  116. nmute says:

    yeah i came to like Aveline a lot.

    also, I actually loved Hawke’s female voice. it was as if someone plucked my ideal character type out of my head and made it into something playable. i also loved that she was something of an asshole much of the time.

    <3 anti-sues.

  117. New Player says:

    What I noticed about this whole Bioware-is-making-nice-RPGs-business is that it’s not possible to say that you just don’t find it that good. It’s not a big problem to say on the internet that you don’t like clunky books, nobody’s going to call a crisis committee into action. When Bioware makes a game, this is not possible. You have to enumerate in great detail what the game does right, which characters you can bring yourself to like, or even get a faint interest in, which one moment was actually “entertaining”, and swarms of loyal company fans will try to convince you of your fault, and this goes on months and months and months on every game site on the planet…

    • Wulf says:

      Yep! :D I got exactly that when i was honest and described Origins as a boring, awkward, repetitive experience. After the bloody Deep Roads, which probably make up a large chunk of anyone’s play time (yay padding), what was I supposed to do – lie? Plus, roll how tired I am by typical low-fantasy medieval settings (of which there are many many many many many many many many many), and I can’t say that I thought Origins was a good game.

      Someone with a higher tolerance for repetition and visiting the same fantasy locale time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time (ad nauseum) again than me is likely going to have a lot of fun with it. But that’s something you need for Dragon Age, I feel – the ability to tolerate what would seem to be an inherently dull and boring experience. Or perhaps to never have experienced anything like it before.

      I keep pointing out that there are so many places in the world, points throughout history, and fascinating, compelling cultures that would make for a really interesting RPG, and no one’s taking a chance on them because they think that gamers are xenophobes who can only stand going to medieval land. Because on the off-chance that they did something with Egypt, Mesopetamia, or Mesoamerica, they’re terrified that gamers will be petrified and suffer culture-shock, the small-minded fools that we are.

      That’s why I’m not really at all interested in Bioware’s fantasy RPGs, because they’ve always gone to the same sorts of locations and done the same sorts of things, I’ve played Baldur’s Gate, Baldur’s Gate II, Neverwinter Nights, the expansion packs of all those three, Dragon Age: Origins, and I even poked my nose into Dragon Age II. It’s all the same sort of thing and it never, ever changes. Even the character archetypes are always the same. I mean, the golem in Origins is a reskin of HK-47. It’s always the same. The only time they ever really tried to branch out was Jade Empire, but at the time Asia had a monopoly on Asian settings and they were doing it better than Bioware. When I played Jade Empire I didn’t really feel that their heart was in it. And I suppose that’s why they came back to medievalandia with Origins.

      Yes, this is of course entirely subjective, and you know what else it is? It’s my failing. I get that. I’m a bit of a xenophiliac and I get tired of retreading over the same setting to the point where I can’t even play a really good game if the setting is a turn off for me. At the moment, medievalandia is the zombie of RPGs, but it’s even worse than that because we’ve been doing it since the ’80s. 30 years on and we’re still doing the same setting – ignoring various other cultures out there that are well overdue for a fantasy setting.

      This is why I tend to praise Japan. One of my favourite examples I’ve actually used recently, because I loved it dearly, it was a great game and it had a wonderful setting. Wild West? Yep. And even better, it had steampunk with magicks thrown in for good measure. It had native americans that could wield magic. I’m talking about Wild ARMS 3. I loved that game. It wasn’t culturally right by a long shot, but at the very least it was interesting. I’d kill for Western developers with the attention to detail that they seem to have to turn their attention away from medievalandia to more interesting locales.

      I mean, you could even do interesting things with medievalandia if you applied it right! How about a scenario where two dimensions have crashed, one which is a high-fantasy medievalandia, and one a near future Earth, and the two have sort of melded, it created a mess at first, but now it’s a post-post apocalypse setting, where people are starting to rebuild. You have a Unification of entities from both worlds, and then you have separatists from each at war. All trying to vie for land. And as you wander out into the land, you might find a dragon in fort knox, a griffin nest in an old busted up CRT monitor, magical artifacts being examined by military folk at the now abandoned Area 51, trained soldiers tangling with an army of orks who’re trying to expand from their land, where it melded into our world, who’re trying to expand in – and the military folk there will have none of it. Or where you have secret agents assaulting a mage’s tower because one of their own who’d been kidnapped, who’s currently being magically mindraped in order to have him turned into something of a sleeper agent?

      This is just crap I’m pulling out of my head right now. Even with medievalandia you can do interesting things if you try, and if you absolutely must set it there. Do developers think that we’re afraid of being challenged? :/ That’s what bothers me, I suppose, that I feel a bit insulted and patronised by the unending stream of RPGs which have the same setting, which don’t even dare to be different. But then again, this is exactly why I’m enthusiastic about Guild Wars 2. You have the Charr, a race that eschew magicks in favour of the physical sciences, you have a Mesoamerican culture of critters who’re screwing with reality hacking quantum magicks, and you have these guys who’re a mix of celtic warrior heroes and nordic culture. At least GW2 is trying to do something a tiny bit different with the whole fantasy thing.

      One of the things I was most excited about with Guild Wars 2 was a bit of concept art. This one, in fact, entitled ‘Charr Chopper.’ Essentially the Charr have figured out enough to put bizzarely alien helicopters together. Going beyond fantasy and into some interesting mesh of science-fantasy, and not the sort of magitech we see in JRPGs either, this is something entirely new to games. We might actually see some of these in the sky, we might see a Charr tank, we might see a Charr/Asura built blimp with railguns mounted to it.

      And this is what I wish other developers would do, at least try and embrace something a little bit different, there are other cultures out there that can be used for fantasy, other settings, other scenarios, and you can even mix and match so that you can throw proper science into your fantasy as well, perhaps some group would want to pursue that. But in large I think that in games, fantasy hasn’t progressed much since Lord of the Rings, there have only been the tiniest iterations, so small that they’re barely noticeable, with games that really did try to do something different (such as Wizardry 8) being forgotten.

      I recently started replaying Quest for Glory III: Wages of War. I realise that some people might not think it was the best of the series, but I really liked it because of the setting, and that you can talk to the characters and learn so, so much about it. I’d probably suffer throes of euphoria if I were to ever see an RPG use a setting like that. :p But it’s not happening. Instead… medievalandia. Untampered with medievalandia. Typical medievalandia. The only changes that Dragon Age really made are the whole grimdark elements, the modern talking, removing the Scottish elements from the dwarves, and some random racism.

      Blargh.

      This is why I’m not interested in Bioware games. I want to play Guild Wars 2, and I want to play games like that. And I want to play games with settings like that which we saw in Mask of the Betrayer, and Wages of War. I want less xenophobia.

      rant_end();

      *falls over.*

      (And I’m not being angry here. Not at the least, just ever so mildly exasperated, tired, and very, very, very disappointed. I think fantasy could do so much more! So much more. So much untapped potential.)

      (Good grief. Another way you could make it interesting is by telling it from the viewpoint of someone else. Say a dragon or a goblin shaman instead of the usual pretty human protagonists. Soooo many unexplored options.)

    • kongming says:

      “Plus, roll how tired I am by typical low-fantasy medieval settings (of which there are many many many many many many many many many)”

      Yes, “low-fantasy” is exactly the word I’d use to describe a fantasy universe with demons, elves, dwarves, golems, magic swords, wizards coming out of every orifice, etc. What in the fuck are you talking about? There’s been exactly one low fantasy medieval game ever made, and that’s Darklands. Everything else is high fantasy (and has nothing to do with anything “medieval”; sorry, forests and swords != “medieval”).

    • Ian says:

      Wulf: I’m pretty sure the problem was more than you essentially said anybody who disagreed with you is a soulless drone, devoid of imagination or original thought.

  118. cms says:

    So I’ve been a fan of RPS for a long time now but this article made me want to express my opinion, which is mainly because of this controversial game but also because of this amazingly good written article.
    With the praise out of the way, let’s state some opinions shall we?

    Ok so while O agree for the most part, I really wanted to point a few things out.
    Firstly, I LOVE DA:O. Loved the characters and how they are developed, loved the character interaction, loved the story(especially the great sideconflicts that you find on your way to the big main conflict) and the rest was meh for me but the good parts made up for it big time.
    And I guess thats my complaint with DA II. I liked the combat, liked some characters….basically they made the meh part good but disregarded the stuff that made the first one GREAT. And it’s so sad because whenever I saw a reference to DA:O or Allistair or Zevran or Leliana or Flemeth….I was hooked!
    For a few seconds that is because the moment was over and I was left with……Fenris.
    But the one thing I realised along the mid part of the game was that I cared least about my own character, mainly because he wasn’t “me”.
    His voice didnt sound like me and when I told him to say something, he’d say something completely different…
    Did the warden sound like me? Well no, but thats not the point. He was me and a lack of a voice was part of why he was me.
    It felt like Lelianas’ Song.
    You remember that DLC?
    You played as Leliana, not as the warden.
    But at least I knew Leliana and her personality and seeing her develop it was interesting.
    Sad thing is, DA II feels like that DLC for me. It feels like the story is developing a new character, but not me.

    I could say so much more but this will have to suffice.
    The one solution I see is if in DA III I play as my warden again at Hawke would be a companion, not playable. That’s what I’d like anyway…
    Look here’s what it is.
    Mass Effect(I’ll only look at the story now, since I can’t really compare the franchises on another level) had a great story and great characters.
    Mass Effect 2 had you again taking control over your character, meeting your old favorite companions, but also meeting a lot of new ones on the way.
    Was it the most innovative thing they could’ve done?
    I don’t think so.
    Was Mass Effect 2 very good precisely because I saw the old faces I knew and loved again?
    It was in my opinion.

  119. FecesOfDeath says:

    Your (John Walker) complaints are very similar to the ones Vince D. Weller (Vault Dweller) had with DA2 in an RPG Codex piece. I wholeheartedly agree. Dragon Age II is the closest BioWare has gotten to making a JRPG.

  120. Erd says:

    Great article, echoes my sentiments exactly, only in a more well thought out way. I thought I’d weigh in with a few points I don’t think have been covered yet.

    1. The game gives you six statistics to invest in, but technically it only gives you three. Two if it’s Merryl. Four for the lockpicking rogue. Health, DPS and mana. Because companions don’t have a choice of weapon types or wear armour, and all the derived statistics can be avoided there’s no need to invest in strength for a platemail mage or dexterity for a high-crit bow shooting warrior. Essentially, its Jade Empire without the reward of the threesome romance you get if you invest points right.

    2. Characters have strong opinions, unique world views, etc etc in the conversation game, but in the other 50% of the game (more? less?) It boils down to one unique character tree with ~four abilities and a railroaded weapon skill that defines the uniqueness of the character in combat. Fill those up and you have to go out of your way if you don’t want your rogues sharing abilities. Enemies have it worse. Enemy blood mages, regular mages, qunari mages and darkspawn mages all seem to have the same damage aura and force blast spells. Enemy rogues all have stealth and back stab. I didn’t even notice if enemy warrior types have abilities. Even Diablo creatures with two second lifespans have unique abilities.

    3. By the end of act one, the players party generally consists of two rogues, two warriors and two mages. This more or less covers every possible permutation these classes are capable of. Besides being incredibly generic when divorsed of the characters unique traits, It means that regardless which class and role you pick for Hawke, He will always feel like a facsimile of an existing companion or vice versa. I played as a duel wielding rogue, so for most of the game Isabela sat on the bench for being redundant. Eventually I turned the difficulty down to lessen the reliance on cross class combos so I could be more frivolous with companion choices.

    4. Ten years is a long time. People never look the same after ten years. I think part of the disconnect is that everyone looks more or less the same after ten years. Twenty year olds look different to thirty year olds who look different to forty year olds, even in fantasy land with its more or less analogous lifespans. Why even try to make a game with such a broad time span when time has no effect in even the most obvious places.

    A few side thoughts:
    Every now and again people argue ‘what is a hitpoint or what does it represent, but this game got me thinking ‘what is 34 strength?’, particularly since strength or most other statistics in this game doesn’t actually mean your character is physically stronger or whatever. Why does it take 24 dexterity and 24 cunning to wear the leather armour? are all the buckles rusted and you have worm and trick your way into it?

    Did you ever notice how compared to the first game, barely any characters have faces? In the first game it felt like the requirements for a character having a face was ‘not wearing a helmet’, but here it is ‘required to speak with a close up’.

    Enemies appear and it doesn’t make sense. A character says ‘I thought dragons were extinct’ even after I’ve killed 300 of them, some on a mountain that up to this point had been ‘the undead area’. But only because it had graves on it. You go to a blood mages house and he isn’t even home but he has 50 shades in his living room, each one being a demon which is supposed to be a big thing? etc

    Did anyone else think Fenris was a bad Russel Crowe-in-Gladiator impersonator?

    And that’s my two cents.

  121. Hummeltime says:

    I agree with many of your sentiments John.

    Firstly, it WAS a good game, it is also probably the most disappointed I have ever been by a PC game in the last 18 years I have been gaming (that includes the recent C&C titles!!). EDIT – I loved DA:O, thought I should make that clear :)

    However, I think your disagreement about “what you thought it should be” clouded your judgement a little. {SPOILERS AHEAD}

    I thought Act 1 was Ok. Despite not having the same connection I had to my character in Origins, I accepted that I cared for my brother, sister and mother. Were they annoying? yes, but that’s to be expected at this stage, our home is gone, and we are running for our lives and will almost certainly die. So I don’t expect cheerful banter at that time.
    I did care about my brother (I was a male warrior) dieing – because he was my brother. Thus emotionally I thought it hooked you fairly well early (differently!, but still well).

    Arriving in Kirkwall, things flattened – Bethany continued to be a dull wet blanket, and I agree Mother didn’t toughen up as I expected she would. Particularly against her brother who was clearly a loser form the get go. But I accepted the Deep Roads expedition, and enjoyed the characters I met on the way. (PS also agree, Varric and Merrils voice acting is AWESOME, and I had them along at almost all times because of that sole reason).

    The relic was a big “woop de doo” at the end, and the act ended a low.
    Onto Act 2!
    And this is where I disagree the most. I thoroughly enjoyed Act 2. The Qunari plot was GREAT. The Qunari voice acting was fantastic. The Chantry involvement was brilliant. The boss fight SUCKED HARD, but up until that point, I was really getting into this game.

    And then the finale…..

    What the heck happened ……. mage interactions (which clearly were a big problem for mage players from the beginning) just get plain ridiculous. Blood mages everywhere and all going crazy once their mana was spent. I also supported the mages from the beginning (I cant see how anyone role-playing seriously could do otherwise, father and sister both apostates – how could you side with the Templar??).

    By the end I wished I could have simply left town before anything went down, taken my loot and moved back to Feralden…….. The mages are all exactly what the templar described, and the templar are also raving loonies……

    Anders – god how they crucified the character I LOVED in awakenings ….. I wanted to kill him, but couldn’t – so I thought I’d lock him up when he had partially atoned….. Nup, apparently he’s fleeing to the hills with me later on. Which reminds me, why the hell did I flee to the hills???

    The only good thing – the world is in an interesting spot for DA 3……..
    PS. agree the conversation wheel sucked, as did the ridiculous viewing angle. Without doubt be the best game by miles on my “hate list”.

  122. non_entity says:

    I have to agree on pretty much every point, except that I prefer this combat system (even coming from games like PS:T, BG2 I enjoyed this… streamlined…. system more) and I also prefer the fixed Hawke persona. It annoyed me to no end to have every damn character, companion, NPC talk but MY character to be mute in DA:O. I very much preferred Mass Effect’s fixed character, I was much more invested into MY Shepard than my DA:O characters, whom I don’t even remember the names of. They were blank slates and very much so. I cared about nearly every companion more than I did about my own character, this mute piece of scenery.
    How impactful was the race choice in DA:O really? Not a lot in end. For the Human Noble there were very few times your brother/slain family was mentioned (although I loved how it made Arl Howe even more hateable) and your brother appeared at the very end. For the mages, if you sacrificed yourself in the end the mages of the Circle were set free, in the end. During the game there was not really that much of a difference (finished the game on three or four different characters).
    So I was fine with losing this bit of customizability but gaining a more interesting main character I actually – could theoretically – care about.
    Yes, being put right into the middle of the flight from Lothering was not great but meh, I can live with that. Asking us to care about our dead brother/sister though, yeah, that’s not gonna happen.
    On my first playthrough I played a humorous/sarcastic/slightly good mage, I tried to stay neutral as much as possible, maybe good, and sided with the Mages in the end. Of all the “you don’t actually matter” …. *cough* “choices” in the story this one was the most disgusting slap in the face.
    Another HUGE thing as the whole Anders deal. He kept pleading for your help, he can’t do it without you, no way, boohoo. And if you don’t help him… well, he still somehow manages. It would have been better if at least he had had to sacrifice himself to pull it off but simply making your decision irrelevant? Yeah… just another way for the game to tell you “you don’t matter”.
    Between Meredith and Orsino, Orsino was always by far the more sane one, rational, willing to compromise, never once looked like he was interested in Blood Magic. And then to have him turning not even on Meredith but on ME, his goddamn ALLY! and four measly templars, finally succumbing to Blood Magic… well fuck, this sucked.
    Also, yeah, it really sucked that Blood Magic mattered as little as it did in DA:O. After DA:O I really hoped that having your main character practice Blood Magic – for good ends – should have much more, or any, effect on the story, the conversations at all. Blood Magic, corruption, is such a HUGE theme in this world to simply completely ignore your character in this way… MAJOR mistake.

    I had feared that the time jumps would mess up the game and unfortunately I was right. Having the story span 10 years (although I only counted 7 – 1 1 year jump, 2 3 year jumps) sounds great but the way they did it was just a huge disconnect. I in no way felt time had passed. The only indication was characters talking about “the last 3 years” etc. Great idea, horrible execution.

    I was looking forward to DA2 a lot, been a Bioware fan for many years, since Baldur’s Gate 1, I’d buy pretty much everything they release sight unseen, don’t need no tests, previews, I trust…..ed them this much. But then they started releasing crappy Dragon Age DLCs (only the Mass Effect 2 ones were good, even excellent, the Shadow Broker), a mediocre Dragon Age expansion, and now a less-than-impressive Dragon Age 2…. yeah, they are losing quite a bit of trust there.
    I would have gotten Star Wars The Old Republic the day of release, having read no tests, nothing, I would have trusted them to deliver an awesome game… I no longer do. I might stll get it but I’ll make sure it’s good before I buy it.

    That said, I still have hope for Mass Effect 3 and maybe Dragon Age 3. Mass Effect 1 to 2 was a solid progression in every way and I want to believe that Dragon Age 2 was the mediocre middle game, mainly a setup for the epic conclusion in Dragon Age 3.

    If I were to give the game a score it’d be nowhere near the 9 out of 10 it’s been getting, probably 7-8, max.

  123. NuclearSerendipity says:

    I agree with you on this: as usual, Bioware has a brilliant concept, but a poor execution. Then again, I’m easily carried away by the concept regardless of execution, so that’s something I have to deal with when trying to more carefully evaluate a game. :P Specially when, story and character interactions/development wise, the concept seemed to improve in many ways, by connecting relationships more deeply with the proper contexts in which they could develop and more fully appreciating the role played by time in their building. And this not only in the relationship of your character with the companions, but also in the relationship of companions between themselves. Sure, the companions weren’t for the most nearly as interesting as DA:O’s were, but many things in character personal development and interaction, I think, were significantly improved, making the way relationships are handled and developed more believable and meaningful.

    What I mean mostly is this: while the game sure has countless flaws – and I agree with most of what you said about them – when it comes down to the way interactions and character personal relationships and development are handled, DA II made some huge and really meaningful steps forward (even though it also did make some steps backwards). And since that’s nearly the heart of Bioware’s games (IMO, at least), that’s no small accomplishment.

  124. commander keen says:

    Alistair is annoying and effeminate

  125. Ruffian says:

    I agree with everything the author said and more. I personally felt extremely let down by this title. It’s like that old saying your mother used to tell you all the time when you’d call your brother a bitchass fag for screenlook killing you, “If you don’t have anything nice to say then don’t say it at all.” Only in this case you might replace nice with good. The whole entire title reeked. I felt like I was playing the same scenario as mass effect 2 only like 3 or 4 times or whatever, they just lob you into the world, and force you to build up to one special mission that you see coming a mile away forever and then once you repeat it they just do it again. the game was also entirely bereft of any kind of real loot. I got like 4 sets of useful armors and weapons. I’ll stop with my detail oriented complaing now because lord knows I could go on forever with this 60 dollar chunk of mind numbing stupid. Bioware is obliously either entirely out of ideas or money for this franchise, or whoever is in charge of developing it has recently suffered some sort of retardation-causing accident. Or, and I really didn’t want to consider this other possibility at first because I love them so, Bioware has just stopped giving a shit about making a decent and engaging product. High concept be damned! without execution what’s the point? I think the only way I saw the city change the whole game was after I killed the arishok and and even then it was only a statue in the docks. Shame on you bioware!

  126. araine252 says:

    I loved DA2 as a game in itself, it was purely it’s connection to Origins which irritated me. The biggest let down was the linear events which happened no matter what you said, and the irrelavence of the origins load-up option when creating a char. Sure it changed the odd mention of the hero of Ferelden, but seeing the option to load an existing save from Origins gave the illusion that it may impact the game in much more of a way.
    I also didn’t care too much about the family, especially when realising that no matter what you do they are either caught, killed or just flat out irritated by you.
    I think they held back a winning formula to let ‘origional’ ideas shine, but the amazing story of the game was hardly delved into, the 10 years in Kirkwall may has well have been 10 months and the rags-to-riches progression was hardly mentioned.

    I know Origins had a pretty old ‘lets build an army and kill the dragon’ plot to it, but the almost epic length and depth of the game stood out brilliantly. When I heard ’10 years’ mentioned in relation to DA2 I was expecting a similar length, if not longer, game… Not half as long!

    It’s the first game i’ve played that I have enjoyed, yet had so much to complain about after. The only way I could see this game bouncing back into the series would be if DA3 had a plot which involved your created chars from 1 + 2 by uploading completed saves from both games. Probably immpossible, definetly not happening, but atleast it would make DA2 seem like an intermission DLC as appose to a failed chapter to the saga.

  127. Gvaz says:

    How can you say “DA2 is a good game” if it’s a sequel?

    If a game is worse then it’s predeecessor, a game that was arguably “Great” as an rpg and as a game, then the only conclusion is that the game is poor as a result.

    I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but as a sequel to DA:O, which is what you expect the game to be, more of the same, it fails hard. It’s fucking shit. Obviously my opinion but whatever.

    As a game on it’s own, standing by itself, not as a bioware game? It’s pretty decent. Does that make it a good game? That’s up for grabs, there is a lot of things wrong with it, even if you don’t compare it to anything else.

    However, if you’re going to say “here’s a sequel to a game” then the game better be pretty much similar or fucking call it something else.

  128. Paul D says:

    *spoilers*

    I loved the first game, and I would not say that DA II was bad but for me it fell short of the original when I had expected it to take on new ground.

    The most aggravating thing was that my whole damn family got killed off in the most meaningless ways. Bethany dies from the blight at the end of the deep roads expedition with NO WARNING?! My mother gets captured by a serial killer and reassembled into his long lost zombie love? Are you kidding?? I like the idea that both DAO and DA II can kill off or take away characters from your party, but at least make it meaningful!

    • Ian says:

      I dunno that your mother dies in a meaningless way. Or not if you’ve been pro-mage to that point, at least. It’s there as a “You sure you still like mages?” sort of a thing I guess, if not a subtle one.

      That said, I really enjoyed that quest line anyway and found it horrendous but in a good way.

      As for Bethany, I can’t comment. I didn’t take her to the Deep Roads so she was alive at the end of my game.

    • Paul D says:

      I think both deaths would have been good plot elements if they had been fleshed out a bit more. Both felt lacking in substance. For the mother’s death, it might have been better if I actually gave a shit about her, but I felt her character was not really developed at all. And then afterwards there is just a short awkward man-hug of a conversation with your uncle and it’s never mentioned again.

      Bethany I at least felt pissed off about, both because they develop her character a little better and because I had based my party around her being the mage (although to be fair, it’s not like it was hard to replace her in that capacity).

      All that said, yeah, I definitely enjoyed the game. I usually don’t have the patience to finish a full RPG, but this held my interest to the end, even if it ended up being a little disappointing. I hope they keep going with this series (or something similar), because there is a lot of cool ground to cover, and given that the end was a bit of a cliffhanger I’d like to see them pick up the story.

  129. Kyuubi251 says:

    after i played Dragon age and played the “II” i was sad & disapointed about the low possibility of option that was offered on the origins. They sacrified some apsect from origins to add new things. I thought it would be a mix of!

    calling it dragon age 2 making it worst : becuz we think we gonna continue the origins sequel, which is not. I believe That dragon age 3 should use the origina & the “II”. and might fix all that crappy stuff.

    actually im hoping some dlc to fix the story & a mod to add deleted cut scene.

    what i hate about age 2 : evry choice you made end you at the same place! You cannot save or killd poeple you would like too! You cannot warn poeple or do anything as any other RPG’s would give!

    its a good game if you do not take it as Dragon age 2 But Dragon age : Kirkwall!

  130. Rise / Run says:

    That’s funny, I’d say that your criticisms of DA2 are basically a concentrated version of my criticisms of every BioWare game I’ve played. The games pretend to be “role” playing but instead are mere “roll” playing games. Very few conversation paths make any difference at all — you’re given the illusion of choice at every turn, but the only choices that really matter are what weapon you’re using or what spell you’re casting. Another thing I miss terribly in BioWare titles is exploration as a means both to beef up your character and flesh out the world as you turn up interesting tidbits. (On that front, I’d say Gothic I and II are king).

    I haven’t played DA2, but after DA:O, I’ve given up on BioWare as a serious RPG firm.

    Ironically, two games that use BioWare engines do a much better job (imho) — the Witcher suffered from some of the same issues as KotOR and DA, but made a much more concerted effort to have the world evolve in a way that felt like you were involved. And Planescape:Torment is just plain brilliant. Oh well.

  131. Ace Jon says:

    “And I’m not sure they’ve written a major character as poorly as your mother, who stands around feebly, and flutters in the background for half the game” – YOU LEAVE HER OUT OF THIS!

  132. UK_John says:

    The fact you said early on: “As an RPG it succeeds in many ways.”, devalued everything you said afterwards. Because if this is an RPG – please tell me what a Witcher 2 or Skyrim is – because they are so different from this linear Action-Adventure. If Action is Combat and Adventure is Conversation, then all Bioware so-called “RPG’s” since Jade Empire are just that – “Action-Adventures”!

    This would leave the RPG genre to the “real” cRPGs, like the Divinities, the Two World’s, the Witcher’s and the Elder Scrolls cRPG’s.

    What Bioware have released since Baldur’s Gate II, and how the gaming media have reacted, show the major problem we have with the gaming industry, and why we see so few intelligent, original titles!

  133. TooNu says:

    I just completed Dragon Age 2 immediately after playing through Dragon Age Origins and I’ve had this article bookmarked becuase I really wanted to save it until I’d finished both games.

    Though, in 10 minutes I have to get my bus to work…so TONIGHT I am reading this article!

  134. TooNu says:

    And after a pretty decent evening at work, reading this makes me want to play through again. I agree with this entire article and despite everything, I want to go through the game but be a bit more ‘non-caring’ and less attentive to party members.

    Maybe it’s the way forward, to truly not give 2 shits about your friends and jsut do and say what the hell you like, surely that is true freedom within games?

    Great read btw, awesome work!

  135. CandraRose says:

    No mention of Fenris?
    Ah well him and Varric were really the only companions I could stand,
    Anders was the only reason I played Awkanening all the way through and they ruined him.
    made him emo and shoved Justice into him so he wasnt hilarious anymore.

    I hate the fact that they changed Merril and all the elves- it made no sense, Merril was an awesome
    character in Origins and her voice and look was much better.

    Male hawkes voice gives me nightmares and Female hawke cant be nice without sounding like a stuck up sarcastic bitch.

    Aveline is just a card board cut out chick who suddenly gets over her dead husband and
    gets it on with her ugly guards man Domic who you need to go through the longest pointless
    quest for any companion ever.

    Going on the quest to see Nathaneil, Zevran were pretty funny but inconclusive- Leilana at the end was just bullshit- as if I wanted to see that red headed idiot give the last cliff hanger line.
    Alistair just looked like he had let himself go and done a whole ton of herion, the animation for the origin characters just made them look terrible.
    That and what the hell happened to Morrigan- Flemith didnt even mention her at all,
    and isnt Sten a qunari? shouldnt he get a cameo to explain the different sorts of Qunari and maybe help out a bit?

    The recycled dungeon like combat battles were a major dissapointment and seeing people explode gets old real fast- slowmotion deaths should never have been taken out and boss battles are the same monsters over and over again defeating the varterral at least a million times in nightmare mode isnt very satisfying.
    As for the quest mine massacre and all the bone pit mines were all just an excuse to shove a whole lot of dragons into it so they can still call it Dragon age, much like awakening did but at least Awakening was an expansion pack and not a sequel Dragon Age two should have been longer as long as Origins if they want to call it Dragon age II.
    As for your brother and sister- Bethany and Carver. Bethany was alright compared to Carver, but they were both stupid spoiled little shits. Carver is just a huge whiner at anything that you do.

    As for the other companions, even Varric gets on my nerves at times- all of them just accept whatever you do only getting 5 or 10 rival points and then getting on their good side by giving them something shiny.
    At least in Origins, yes there are more gifts and more options for bonding through dialoge but if you did something they didnt like theyd retaliate immediatley and even after when you got back to camp yell at you some more.
    In Dragon age II all you get is a questioning beliefs quest and the option to use some “hilarious” joke and get influence with them again- yay best friends forever.

    In Origins if you did something wrong- completly against the companions beliefs they could even try and kill you for it even if you do have good influnece. (such as Leilana attacking you if you try to infect the urn of ashes with dragon blood to become a reaper)
    As for only getting to be a human who either fought in ostagar or be an apostate and never have a care in the world or be underneath the circles wrath with two whiny little siblings and a bitchy mother was awful.

  136. Gvaz says:

    Dragon Age 2 is a bad game (when compared to Dragon Age: Origins).

    Could it pass from another company? Perhaps, but that doesn’t absolve the game of its design flaws.

    A painfully average or mediocre game is still painfully average or mediocre regardless of the name, or developer. It’s just a little less painful to swallow. Does that mean the game is good? No, not at all. Does it mean that DA:O was better? In a lot of cases, yes.

    Should Bioware make DA3? Yes, though if they do not learn from this, they never will.

  137. dinorceeho says:

    mat kinh
    I know people will be up in arms about this, the usual nay-sayers with their rebuttal of ‘if you didn’t like it, why did you play it?’, will have a field day, so to initially nip this in the bud, I will say this: I am a huge Bioware fan, and I pre-ordered this game, buying it on day 1 because I believed in the developers I love. I also payed good money to get this game, so you can be damn sure I was going to play it. Also I don’t give up easily, hell I’ve played through FFXIII. Anyway, back on point here.

  138. bernlin2000 says:

    I’m simply bored: still very early on in Act I (although a year has already gone by apparently, after one whole quest! I took a whole year to turn Flemeth’s medallion in and she didn’t seem bothered whatsoever, I guess the game designers really phoned this one in) and I really don’t feel any desire to continue on, especially after reading that there’s not really any story to push for. John, I especially agree with you on the beginning: it was truly abysmal, easily the worst I’ve ever seen in an RPG. Two companions die within 10 minutes, and I didn’t care one bit. My sister dies: people cry for a moment then we just keep walking. My uncle doesn’t seem to give a shit whatsoever, considering us a burden from the moment we enter the city (his brother and newly-dead niece apparently not making much of a dent on his psyche). And my companions are simply lame (excepting Varric): my brother and Merrill are a constant source of complaining and moaning.

    But, mainly, I just don’t understand what the point of the game is: it’s been suggested from the very beginning that I will become some sort of Champion, but why should I care? Does having that title add to the bigger picture of Ferelden? Meh…perhaps I’ll just wait for Dragon Age III: there are better games I have on Steam that make better use of my time. I shouldn’t have to “slog” through games to get to the good parts.

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