By Quintin Smith on September 10th, 2010 at 3:12 pm.
Sadness. According to a post on MineCraft developer Notch’s blog, PayPal have limited access to his PayPal account due to “a suspicious withdrawal or deposit”. That’d be the same PayPal account people drop money into when they buy MineCraft. In the post, Notch says that there’s more than €600,000 in there, and if PayPal decide something untoward is going on they’re going to keep that money.
This news comes hot on the heels of Notch stating his intent to use that money to start his own development studio, which could only be a huge boon for PC gaming. “I’m sure I’ll get it sorted out,” says Notch, “but this is kind of frustrating.”
In PayPal’s defense, a PC indie developer racking up 600 thousand euros is pretty suspicious, albeit only in a “What brand of racehorse steroids did Notch import that made him this amazing” kind of way. Notch! Our hearts and prayers are with you. Thanks to RPS reader Dan Lowrie for the heads up.
10/09/2010 at 15:16 pupsikaso says:
GET THE TORCHES, MEN! SACK THE PAYPAL INFIDELS!
11/09/2010 at 22:09 cpy says:
*lights up the torch*
Allright! Who first?
10/09/2010 at 15:16 Tei says:
I will send a email to paypal, asking for unlock him. :-/
o7
10/09/2010 at 15:19 Tei says:
https://www.paypal.com/es/cgi-bin/helpscr?cmd=_contact-general
10/09/2010 at 19:05 Tei says:
I have received my reply.
The content is some stupid freakish copypasta that make absolutely no sense.
Also, I made the question in english (and filed it as english) and the reply is in spanish. WTF?.
It seems this people is awnfull. Is soo full of shit, that maybe will not know about theres a problem at all.
09/12/2010 at 01:18 uggs outlet says:
Thank you for sharing your admin would get ready a severely beneficial write-up I congratulate.
10/09/2010 at 15:16 wm says:
What? That’s surely not for PayPal to decide. The police, sure. But a private company? Sue them, Notch.
10/09/2010 at 16:25 Ignorant Texan says:
Under the US Patriot Act, it is their responsibility to with-hold the funds and notify the relevant authorities.
10/09/2010 at 17:59 Rinox says:
Under the US Patriot Act, just about anything is possible. :-(
10/09/2010 at 18:03 Ignorant Texan says:
To the eternal shame of me and my country, you are sadly correct, Rinox.
10/09/2010 at 18:15 ezuz says:
One of the reasons I have no interest to move, live or travel to the U.S.
Can say the same for at least 15 other friends of mine.
10/09/2010 at 20:40 Warskull says:
This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act, Paypal has been pulling this bullshit forever. They play with their legal status since they technically aren’t a bank. They’ve been doing this forever, someone claims fraud, they freeze the whole account and keep all the money. They end up on the bad end of a lot of fraud and they way they make up for it is by keeping legitimate customer’s money.
Example:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/further-proof-paypal.php
I suspect Paypal will keep the full 600,000 euros. Hopefully, Notch can cause enough of a fuss to either force paypal to give the money back or sue the living crap out of them.
05/12/2010 at 21:23 Ryan Curtis says:
Paypal of course are not a US company .. albeit that they are a wholely-owned subsidiary of one. I think however that ebays eagerness to follow the Homeland diktat might make them forget that a seperate legal entity is a seperate legal entity and that Paypals first loyalty is to the government of the country in which it is registered.
10/09/2010 at 15:17 ChaK_ says:
Well at least they control the money they “have”.
i’m sure it’ll be solved in 2/3 mails
10/09/2010 at 15:18 Samuel Bass says:
I find it odd that Paypal is often heralded as the harbinger of a “post-paper money / post-banking world” yet are about as opaque and unaccountable as any other financial institution.
Here’s hoping Notch gets his hard earned zenny back.
10/09/2010 at 16:38 Dinger says:
I find it odd that people continue to use Paypal in both the payable and receivable directions. Seriously, you’re giving a third party access to your financials on the basis of a password and agreeing to let them do whatever the Hell they want with it?*
*Also known as agreeing to resolve all differences via confidential binding arbitration.
10/09/2010 at 17:11 VelvetFistIronGlove says:
No, they’re more opaque and unaccountable than many other financial institutions, as PayPal is not subject to many of the regulations that govern banks.
Here’s another example of PayPal’s fine policies that happened to a friend of mine.
10/09/2010 at 17:15 Wulf says:
Yes, but playing devil’s advocate, in their favour PayPal are quite nutty about security, they don’t want to be the centre of a scandal, no company does. Therefore they keep a good handle on their site, which is more than you can say for most sites where you’d have to give out your debit/credit card details to pay. Frankly, between openly sharing my credit/debit cards where just about anyone can find them, and sharing them with PayPal who’re appreciably paranoid, I’d choose PayPal.
10/09/2010 at 15:18 Malleus says:
Reminds me of this:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/paypal-fiasco-summary.php
10/09/2010 at 15:24 Butler` says:
“Paypal’s outlook is that every single one of their customers is a liar, a cheat, and a thief.”
Amen.
10/09/2010 at 23:32 BAReFOOt says:
As somewhat of an expert in psychology, I can tell you, that this is projection combined with the egocentric arrogance of a evil madman. Or in other words: They simply think that everyone must be like them.
It’s like those who always think their partner cheats on them. Because they cheat on her/him constantly.
11/09/2010 at 00:33 DJ Phantoon says:
And justify their cheating with previously stated idea that partner is cheating on them, making it a game of revenge.
10/09/2010 at 15:19 Butler` says:
Having dealt with them as a business in the past, PayPal will do what the hell they want. And in their own time.
10/09/2010 at 23:43 Junior says:
True, the key thing here, is that Paypal doesn’t want to steal 600,000 euros with the internet watching.
RPS reporting on this story is just a small yet critical part of the process, things will resolve themselves neatly with the whole world watching.
The important thing is that we don’t STOP watching these people who promise to care for our money.
11/09/2010 at 02:06 Ezhar says:
Same, after having been stung by their un-service twice (moving countries is not supported by their system for example) I’ve simply stopped using them for anything, even credit card payments though them. Yes that means I can’t buy some stuff like Minecraft, but look where that got them now.
If you must use them, transfer the money into a real bank account the second it goes into their horrible system and never let any amount accumulate there – they just get greedy if you do.
10/09/2010 at 15:19 Stijn says:
Huh. Surely you’d want to transfer the money from your PayPal account to your actual bank account every so often? It seems strange to let all that money just sit there.
10/09/2010 at 15:22 Wilson says:
@Stijn – Yeah, you would have thought, but I guess it’s one of those things where it’s easier not to bother, and you’ve got no reason to think of it as a concern. If Notch does continue on with PayPal after this is sorted, you can bet he’ll be more diligent about moving the money out in future.
10/09/2010 at 15:27 Dean says:
Maybe if we were talking a few grand coming in a few euros at a time… but over half a million in there… having some sense and not wanting to leave that sort of money with somewhere that gives you nearly zero rights over it is one thing, but not wanting the interest you’d get from having that in a proper bank account is shocking…
10/09/2010 at 15:30 Kid A says:
His account has actually been limited for a few weeks now, according to comments he’s made on Twitter and /v/ (yes, he posts on 4chan). That 600k (pre-tax, pre-PayPal’s cut – which they’ll still be taking after shafting him over) is from sales in the last 2-3 weeks. That’s the kind of money this guy is making.
10/09/2010 at 15:59 Butterbumps says:
Well, considering that one of the things involved in setting up this new studio he’s planning is hiring “a business guy”, I think we can assume this kind of fiasco won’t be happening in the future.
10/09/2010 at 16:02 Ignorant Texan says:
Paypal, while not a bank, falls under the US Patriot Act. With a name like Markus Persson, he obviously has ties to some freedom-hating terrorist group. That they are keeping his money and extending the float has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it, I’m sure.
10/09/2010 at 16:06 qrter says:
This surprised me too, who keeps 600k in their Paypal account? Especially when Paypal is pretty infamous for not being the most reliable company in the world. The internet is rife with horror stories about them.
10/09/2010 at 17:19 YogSo says:
@Ignorant Texan: “With a name like Markus Persson, he obviously has ties to some freedom-hating terrorist group.”
As soon as he tells them where his sister Una is hiding they will give him the money back. Nothing personal, just bussiness. :P
10/09/2010 at 19:30 Shih Tzu says:
@Stijn – Actually, the dev says he was withdrawing regularly once a week. The $600K came in just recently due to a spike in sales (and presumably is what caused Paypal to limit the account), before he had a chance to withdraw. But yeah, this serves as a pretty good lesson to indies that Paypal is not your friend, or if it is, it’s your friend who’s always been kind of a dick and now has borrowed your car and crashed it into a tree while drinking.
10/09/2010 at 15:24 Rinox says:
What? I was going to buy Minecraft tonight. Is it still going to the Paypal account or is there an alternative now? I don’t want to wait too long to craft my mine…
10/09/2010 at 15:46 frymaster says:
the 600,000 euros he’s talking about are what’s gone into his account in the 3 weeks since it’s been locked
this means:
a) you can still buy it, and
b) he’s had an insane level of sales recently. 60,000 copies in under 4 weeks.
10/09/2010 at 15:51 Rinox says:
Yeah but I don’t really feel great about dropping more money in that paypal account when he can’t access it.
10/09/2010 at 16:03 lhzr says:
i paid for MC more than 3 weeks ago. still got nothing and he didn’t answer to any of the 5 emails i’ve sent him. so yeah .. buying it won’t necessarily mean you’ll actually get to play it any time soon.
10/09/2010 at 19:37 Casimir's Blake says:
I had NO such problems, and in fact paid for the game twice. Yeah, I bought a license for a friend.
On both occasions, the accounts were IMMEDIATELY unlocked and we were able to download and play the alpha.
You do realise that you don’t actually receive a download via e-mail? You have to log onto http://www.minecraft.net with the credentials of the account that has paid for MC, and it will then tell you that you have a full account and have access to the alpha version (web or download).
10/09/2010 at 20:33 lhzr says:
@casimir: yeah, this wasn’t the first copy i bought either. it was the third and didn’t have any problems with the first two purchases.
11/09/2010 at 00:50 Casimir's Blake says:
@lhzr: Ah context always makes a difference! I’m willing to bet that your third purchase may have been made while Notch’s server was heavily overloaded. I reckon he’s getting desperate to change it by now! Try and e-mail him again, but do check his blog, he’s been bloody busy lately: http://notch.tumblr.com/
10/09/2010 at 15:26 LeFishy says:
He actually takes it out regularly. This sum has accumulated since the restriction was placed.
10/09/2010 at 15:27 LeFishy says:
That was supposed to be a reply. Whatevs.
10/09/2010 at 15:26 OgTheClever says:
As a matter of fact he was withdrawing from it weekly, it’s just that he’s been on trips for the last couple of weeks and this is the money which has only built up during this time.
10/09/2010 at 15:27 Hippo says:
I don’t think people should start e-mailing PayPal. Not yet. I mean, if they decide to keep the money then obviously we should get medieval on their asses, but at the moment angry e-mails from a bunch of random internet people might only make the situation worse for him.
10/09/2010 at 16:11 qrter says:
I don’t think e-mails from anonymous internet people would help at any time, really. Why should Paypal care?
At worst, it’ll be something that ends up in a courtroom, sadly. E-mails won’t help anyone there.
10/09/2010 at 16:57 Mr. Brand says:
I think an e-mail to Google Checkout, urging them to open up merchant business in more countries than the US and UK, would be an even better idea. It’s clear that PayPal won’t change.
10/09/2010 at 15:27 Derp says:
Those 600k Euro is only the money he made in the past 3 weeks. His account has been locked for 3 weeks and is being reviewd. He made WELL over 600k euro in total. Anyway, there is a patch coming out tonight with compasses.
10/09/2010 at 15:28 Steve says:
According to his twitter, he does withdraw everything every week. Sales have just been that crazy since they locked the account.
10/09/2010 at 15:28 Reapy says:
This sucks… but I’ve been reading stories about paypal like this for YEARS, and I’m kind of shocked people still use them at all… but then again I’ve never set up anything that needed payment via the web, so maybe they are just too convenient or cheap to pass up.
10/09/2010 at 15:34 Butler` says:
They’re convenient but certainly not cheap, especially considering the beyond-terrible customer service they offer.
What they offer is a household brand that consumers are familiar and comfortable with using to give money away to relative strangers.
Which is why they do everything to protect that image.
10/09/2010 at 16:30 Jon says:
I’m afraid to say that I set up a PayPal website.
The reason people choose PayPal is because there ISN’T a good competitor. About the only real alternative is Google Checkout, and they’ve matched PayPal’s pricing scheme, not improved on it.
PayPal is the only company you can reasonably expect people on the internet to trust their money with for small to medium businesses.
They also have a relatively easy to use API (better than Google’s), and a large amount of documentation (mostly as a result of their large number of customers).
11/09/2010 at 00:37 DJ Phantoon says:
Yeah but Google already owns all of your personal information.
10/09/2010 at 15:32 Ravenger says:
There have also been cases of legitimate Paypal payments to Steam being reversed because of Paypal’s anti-fraud measures.
Bad enough, except that if it happens Steam will lock your entire account until the dispute is settled. Some people have been in a catch 22 situation where both Steam and Paypal deny responsibility to fix it.
10/09/2010 at 15:33 salejemaster says:
fuck you pay pal, serious like, I cant even BUY the damn game coz paypal doesn’t recognize where I live as a countrey, here’s to hoping the cup finally spills and he makes a diffrenent way of buying the game so I can finally play!!!
10/09/2010 at 15:51 wm says:
Where do you live?
10/09/2010 at 16:48 fearian says:
A council house by the sound of it.
I JEST!
10/09/2010 at 16:54 salejemaster says:
@wm Serbia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe-Serbia.svg there it is on the map right there!
10/09/2010 at 19:04 Vague-rant says:
I wouldn’t call a council house living.
I JEST!
10/09/2010 at 19:25 FunkyBadger says:
Wales.
11/09/2010 at 00:38 DJ Phantoon says:
prolly some terrrist land like
africa
or new zealand
or germany
10/09/2010 at 15:33 Skurmedel says:
I would be worried if I were in the same situation. Pay Pal has done some pretty shift shit towards other merchants in the past.
10/09/2010 at 15:34 Zyrxil says:
Hopefully Google Checkout or Amazon Payments can gain traction and replace Paypal. Ebay is really such a piece of shit company these days.
10/09/2010 at 15:34 cliffski says:
This kind of problem never happens with these guys
BMT Micro
and
fastSpring.
They are payment providers that provide services for indie devs. You can even phone them up and speak to real people. They take a bigger cut than paypal, but in my opinion, it’s worth it. I wouldn’t want a customer to have to ever talk to paypal about something, thats just asking for frustration.
I’ve used about 8 different payment companies over the years, and I’ve found those 2 to be the best ways to getting money from direct sales.
10/09/2010 at 15:40 Butler` says:
Don’t you have enough of a sales history to set up a proper online payment system from a bank?
10/09/2010 at 15:47 salejemaster says:
@cliffski I think BMT Micro is preatty cool never had trouble buying games with that service!
10/09/2010 at 15:54 pupsikaso says:
But do those companies offer as many payment methods and in as many countries as PayPal? The reason why it’s so popular is because you can pay just about any way you can, and from almost any country.
10/09/2010 at 17:03 Mr. Brand says:
FastSpring offer all the usual cards and PayPal as options, but the money go into the seller’s FastSpring account instead. Then they can transfer to a real bank account (although I think PayPal is an option for the brave).
10/09/2010 at 17:09 cliffski says:
Thats the beauty of them. You can use BMT, and then handle paypal for you. So people who like paypal can use it, people who hate it, can use their credit/debit card or check, and you can get on with programming :D
10/09/2010 at 15:47 Emphursis says:
Well, hopefully when he gets it sorted out and starts a proper company, he will be able to avoid PayPal completely and set up his own payment method.
10/09/2010 at 16:03 Ysellian says:
A part of me can understand Paypal, but the bigger part of me doesn’t understand how paypal is even allowed to do this. Surely it’s the police that handles such tasks?
10/09/2010 at 16:06 Hippo says:
What he should immediately do is to set up an alternative system and at least temporarily shut down the paypal option. Paypal is obviously convenient enough that it should remain an option (but only after this current mess is solved), but he’s selling 4000 copies a day at 10 euro per copy, and that’s 40 000 euro going into his locked account every single day. Not a great idea, considering Paypal _might_ actually try to grab the money.
(that said, he can certainly afford a serious business lawyer, so he’s perhaps not that worried)
(also, I certainly did not enter an incorrect captcha phrase)
10/09/2010 at 16:18 Sigma Draconis says:
A dick move on PayPal’s part, but they’ve always been suspect. Though, I do expect Notch to get this sorted out without too much trouble.
10/09/2010 at 16:29 Davee says:
Wow. I bought it late last night, it must have been a close call and among the last transactions :O
And yes, PayPal is very suspicious. About anything that isn’t small sums – a mate of mine got a call asking if a 300(ish)-euro transaction he had made from his PayPal account to another place was legit/his intention or not – he said that it was and there wasn’t any more hassle – but still ;)
10/09/2010 at 17:18 Ysellian says:
It’s suspicious, but I must say needed for an online money payment service. All you need is a password from someone and he could go off with hundreds if you’re not paying attention. My creditcard company calls me aswell when things seem a bit iffy.
But this seems a bit different. This seems like Paypal think the guy from Minecraft is the criminal.
10/09/2010 at 16:39 ScubaMonster says:
How convenient for PayPal. That’s an easy 600K euros in their pocket.
10/09/2010 at 16:39 ScubaMonster says:
If PayPal keeps the money I hope he sues them. That is wrong.
10/09/2010 at 16:42 Navagon says:
Bloody unbelievable!
Well, not totally unbelievable. This sort of behaviour is why I never leave any money in my Paypal account. Online purchases result in the funds being taken from my bank account. You simply can’t trust Paypal, even if there is seldom any better alternatives but to use them.
10/09/2010 at 16:42 Kazang says:
What the deuce?
600k in 3 weeks? That’s and obscene amount of money for a one man show indie game.
I can see why they would be suspicous as I’m sure paypal and such systems are regularly used for shady shenanigans.
10/09/2010 at 16:43 JohnnyMaverik says:
I’m sure it’ll be unfrozen soon, PayPal aren’t going to keep the money, not only because it’d be very bad press for them, but also… well why would they want to? This kinda shit is normal.
10/09/2010 at 16:53 ReV_VAdAUL says:
Hopefully Paypal will sort things out soon but don’t be certain they will, as with the Something Awful thing mentioned above they may decide to simply refund the money to customers and cause notch a whole load of hastle.
Also Paypal’s CEO seems to be a bond villain: http://www.alternet.org/story/147058
10/09/2010 at 16:58 Freud says:
I can’t imagine it will be a problem. That’s why Notch is such a perfect front for Al Qaida.
10/09/2010 at 16:59 Lukasz says:
I am not surprised that happened.
We are talking about 600K euro made in 2 weeks or so. By a single person.
Of course they were worried. If it is a fraud they are gonna pay. Not a person whose paypal account was stolen.
This happening is one of the drawbacks of having high consumer protection on your bank accounts.
Hopefully Paypal resolves it in timely fashion (and i mean a week or less)
if not then torches and pitchforks gentlemen!
10/09/2010 at 17:00 A-Scale says:
600 fucking thousand Euro? WHAT? How did he make that much with a relatively unknown indie game?!!?
10/09/2010 at 17:02 ReV_VAdAUL says:
While it has been consistently very popular I believe a guy who does Modern Warfare 2 youtubes or something with thousands of viewers started doing minecraft videos and a lot of his views liked what they say, spurring the €600k in 3 weeks of sales.
10/09/2010 at 17:20 Vinraith says:
It was the subject of a post on the TF2 blog, as well, which increased its exposure considerably. Even before that, though, it’s one of the better known indie games out there simply on word of mouth.
10/09/2010 at 17:02 Bas says:
I just bought access to Minecraft yesterday. That must have been the final straw, sorry for destroying your financial security, hopes amd dreams Notch!
10/09/2010 at 17:11 Navagon says:
Dammit, Bas! Why did you have to turn out to Osama Bin Ladin in a dress?!
10/09/2010 at 17:16 Brumisator says:
SO… paypal police themselves and their users… and can decide to KEEP THE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES?
WTF!!!???
10/09/2010 at 18:45 Dark_Oppressor says:
Relax. Paypal is looking into it and will take care of everything. Just relax… that hold…. on all your monies…
10/09/2010 at 17:19 Vinraith says:
This kind of thing is actually why I generally like Paypal. They have very tight security, which has saved me account from being stolen on at least one occasion, and their fraud resolution system has gotten me back my money from a number of bad ebay deals. I can understand why this amount of earning, in this amount of time, would read to them as suspicious. I’m sure it’ll get worked out, I don’t know what this hysteria about “Paypal keeping the money” is but it’s baseless. For one, they’re not crooks, and for another, they’re not idiots. They know that’d be a PR disaster, even before it was a legal one.
10/09/2010 at 17:23 Ysellian says:
yeah I’m pretty sure a service like paypal is worth more than 600k.
10/09/2010 at 17:42 Jake says:
I do most of my business through paypal and I really like the service, it’s fast and convenient, a lot more so than international cheques etc. But then again I have never had a fraud problem, and certainly never lost any money, if I did, that might change my opinion pretty quickly. I would expect this issue to be resolved pretty quickly though surely.
10/09/2010 at 17:56 Brumisator says:
You know, Justice is about stopping evildoers and not harming innocents.
10/09/2010 at 19:05 caesarbear says:
“I don’t know what this hysteria about “Paypal keeping the money” is but it’s baseless.”
Not at all. PayPal’s business is cash flow. They don’t make their real profit from penny and schilling (?) their customers. Providing 600k in liquidity, even if only for a month, reaps interest. One easy way for PayPal to hold on to the cash that flows through them a little longer is to claim fraud concerns. Think about it. What actual work is PayPal doing right now to “investigate” Markus Persson and Minecraft.net? If they really wanted to know they could contact authorities. After that, what possible steps could they take in determining Notch’s criminality? Hire a private investigator? They’re doing no such thing. This is a memo sitting on some bureaucrat’s desk and it doesn’t get resolved until that bureaucrat arbitrarily decides to release the account. Background checks take days. This is clearly a cash grab.
10/09/2010 at 17:37 Mugi says:
Been there., done that, lost that. Granted me it as not a loss of 600k $ it was a loss of 1500$ For me back then it was ALL money I had, was almost driven out on the street as yes this was a payment from an registered US company to me. They had problems sending international bills so they asked if they could pay me over paypal, which I agreed to.
When I got the payment paypal blocked my account instantly and talked about money laundry and so on. Yeah the job was a serious one for a mayor gaming site.
10/09/2010 at 17:56 burglebox says:
Go here and log in to help support our buddy Notch:
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Watercooler/Markus-Persson-creator-of-Minecraft-has-funds-wrongly-frozen-by/m-p/98902/highlight/false#M2897
The more publicity this gets the better. I’ve never heard of a credit card scammer or identity thief getting the support of 130,000 plus fans (and legitimate customers)
10/09/2010 at 18:25 cliffski says:
upvoted!
10/09/2010 at 18:08 Dalai says:
PayPal complaint filed.
10/09/2010 at 18:10 bananaphone says:
Was going to post the same link.
They really are an awful bunch of shits.
10/09/2010 at 18:13 fartron says:
Since Notch isn’t in the US, the patriot act applies neither to him nor his banking in this case.
10/09/2010 at 18:15 Ignorant Texan says:
Since Paypal is based in the US, I’m sure they are not taking the chance.
10/09/2010 at 18:24 Alexander Norris says:
The US doesn’t actually care what the legally-defined boundaries of the USA are, nor do they give a shit about anyone’s sovereignty except their own, in case you hadn’t noticed.
10/09/2010 at 18:28 Ignorant Texan says:
As Mr Norris states, and since Notch and his business are not based in the US, and Paypal is, it does fall under our Orwellian-named US Patriot Act.
10/09/2010 at 19:17 caesarbear says:
I hate to bust up the Ameribashing, but this “investigation” was not initiated by the US government. It was PayPal. The Patriot Act forces companies to comply when the government asks. No business or person has to worry about complying with the Patriot Act during normal business activity. If anything, the Patriot Act in this case should help PayPal recognize whether Notch is a money launderer. Not that I’m a fan of the Patriot Act, but this is entirely the arbitrary will of PayPal.
10/09/2010 at 19:38 Ignorant Texan says:
Transfer of money involving 10k and up USD require notification of US banking authorities. The relevant statue was passed during the Reagan Administration as part of the War on Drugs. As an United States citizen who has had to deal with this personally, I can attest that it involves a hold, usually 7-10 days, while they wait to hear if it is a legal transfer. Money transferred to a foreign national is not exempted. While I’m sure that Paypal is not unhappy to have the float they currently enjoy during the required notification process with Notch’s money, they also have a firm legal justification in this matter.
10/09/2010 at 19:56 caesarbear says:
All of those notification laws existed before the Patriot Act as you mentioned (and exist in most Western countries btw.) The Patriot Act if anything, should expedite the processes, not turn 7-10 days into 3 weeks. The law is being used as smoke screen in this case.
10/09/2010 at 20:33 Ignorant Texan says:
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that Paypal is doing what they can to avoid forking his money over for as long as they can. Notch can easily prove he’s not part of some ‘criminal’ or ‘terrorist’ organization. Paypal is not a bank, they aren’t subject to most US banking laws. They are subject to state laws and the Patriot Act. The whole Patriot Act sub-thread began when people asked how Paypal could justify playing ‘police-man’.
10/09/2010 at 22:31 elmuerte says:
Notch is from Sweden, and thus most likely using PayPal Europe, which is a actual bank based in Luxembourg.
10/09/2010 at 18:21 distrbnce says:
BRB mining coal
10/09/2010 at 18:36 Prophet19 says:
I say we bomb paypal’s e-mails/phone lines with complaints lets show them who there dealign with.
10/09/2010 at 18:41 Hippo says:
I just discovered that I can move lava around in buckets, like water (and create lava springs). I’m getting all kinds of weird ideas now…
10/09/2010 at 18:43 Lucas says:
Step 1: don’t do business with PayPal!
I did buy Minecraft because they just acted as the credit card middleman, but I refuse to open an account or otherwise do business with them. I hope Notch gets this sorted out ok and then jumps ship ASAP.
10/09/2010 at 18:48 PHeMoX says:
I hope he’ll get that money back.
10/09/2010 at 18:55 Nick says:
@lhzr
minecraft.net
login
download
You’re welcome.
10/09/2010 at 20:38 lhzr says:
uh, thanks, but as i replied to casimir, having already gotten two copies of mc, i know how the process should work. thing is, it doesn’t.
10/09/2010 at 19:01 Jeroen Beekman says:
It’s already going on for two weeks.
10/09/2010 at 19:06 olybenjamin says:
My paypal account was frozen with $600 in it for “suspicious activity” I haven’t used it since. PayPal is a shady, terrible way to do business and if you’re keeping money in it I strongly recommend removing it as quickly as possible.
10/09/2010 at 19:13 Darkstryke says:
Yeah, X has been doing X’s adventures in Minecraft (How I got hooked) the last few weeks and sales have gone bonkers.
10/09/2010 at 19:15 Dozer says:
So – in future, you pay by posting him a cheque :-)
10/09/2010 at 19:15 terry says:
Minecraft could be used to sculpt a terrorist attack! Someone inform the Daily Mail!
10/09/2010 at 19:21 Klaus says:
Ah, so it is PayPal who are the heroes of this tale.
10/09/2010 at 19:26 lazyjoe21 says:
I have this bad feeling that Paypal caught on to Notch getting ready to start his own business and figured he would stop using their services; so they decided to cash in.
Thoughts?
10/09/2010 at 19:31 blackdog says:
Open a Google Checkout account and f**** the evil Paypal!
10/09/2010 at 19:42 Mad Doc MacRae says:
Out of the fire and into further Google servitude I see.
10/09/2010 at 19:43 OgTheClever says:
Unfortunately, Google Checkout isn’t available in Sweden so it’s out of the question.
10/09/2010 at 19:49 Robsoie says:
considering the extremely loose concerns that google has with privacy and private datas, i would not really be willing to give them any personal bank coordinates.
moving from paypal to google seems to be some kind of replay of the old Charybdis and Scylla myth.
10/09/2010 at 19:41 Torqual says:
Lets place a lavaspawn over Paypal HQ.
10/09/2010 at 19:47 Scoopsy says:
This is perhaps my favorite comment in RPS history. I’d love to see that PP email.
10/09/2010 at 19:54 annemarie says:
ill dig the hole to the lavaspawn!
10/09/2010 at 19:59 Torqual says:
I will tower all way up with the bucket
10/09/2010 at 20:24 Calabi says:
Its great when these companys play justice. Thank you for protecting us. Yeah right, as if they are investigating it.
They dont investigate these things, they just freeze accounts probably automatically for no reason. They wont contact the appropriate authoritys.
They just wait for the person to contact them then put them through a procedure that takes weeks to complete. Weeks probably because they have a large pile and only one person working on it(and working on it probably means just ticking a few boxes very slowly), in between a million other things, probably with added set procedures to delay it as long as possible like that guy indicated.
This is not suspicous if they were a crook they wouldnt use fricking paypal. SMALL DEPOSITED AMOUNTS FROM HUNDREDS OF DIFFERENT SOURCES IS NOT SUSPICOUS.
. It might be one of the those scams but even if it was, paypal could do nothing about it because the money is willingly given by hundreds of different people. No one protects against these sorts of scams, is paypal suddenly deciding to protect the people from these?
Theirs no need for anyone to side or understand with paypal, its blatantly wrong. There not playing police there is nothing they can do legally or lawfully. It annoys me when a company is allowed to pretend that its behaving good and doing things for the benefit(of whom, whom does this benefit?)of Justice, when its blatantly not. If they are doing for some lawful reason, then you dont presume guilt, you have to find a reason a suspicion for something to be wrong, more than just oh they’ve got a lot of money.
Also the proofs that you have to provide to get your account back prove they are just playing a game to keep the money. Any crook could provide them. What kind of investigation could they do to find out there is wrong doing? I doubt they have any means or ability for investigation they rely on the police or other institutions to provide evidence.
But yeah, paypal what a bunch of cunts.
10/09/2010 at 20:37 geldonyetich says:
Glad to hear Notch has been withdrawing his money from PayPal every week, so those 600,000 Euros apparently correspond to one week’s sales. He should be able to afford to contact the necessary individuals that can set up his own pay portal.
10/09/2010 at 20:56 dudekiller says:
Whelp, enjoy my eight quid, PayPal. Maybe buy yourself a couple of beers. Ooh! Or a copy of Indie Cult Hit Minecraft.
10/09/2010 at 21:07 Tim Ward says:
Hopefully, the media attention will deter paypal from committing outright theft on this occasion.
10/09/2010 at 21:10 Refresh100 says:
Now, I would say not to travel here, but live here, ha, I rather go live with you (assuming you live in the UK)
10/09/2010 at 21:24 bwion says:
I don’t work for Paypal, don’t have any idea of what their internal policies or legal compliance requirements actually are, but I do have some experience in the world of financial institutions. (This is not a professional opinion of any kind, this is just me.) This is also not a defense of Paypal; having dealt with their barely-passable attempt at customer service in the past, that’s not a hell I’d wish on anyone (except maybe the people who decided that XCom should be a first-person shooter, those utter utter monsters). But criticizing them for the very very few things they may have done right doesn’t really do anyone any good.
If they even suspect fraud, freezing an account to preserve the funds while they investigate is the very first thing that a responsible financial institution will do (so I suppose Paypal might do it too). Always. If it turns out someone’s subverted the account, or has been using the account to house fraudulent deposits or whatever, and that money goes away, they could well be liable for that money, and they’re not going to take that kind of risk. Also, no one wants to have the awkward “What do you mean, my money’s not in my account” conversation with an irate customer.
And, er, to whoever said above that ‘hundreds of small deposits from different sources aren’t suspicious’, that kind of activity, especially if it were significantly more than normally passed through his account, would certainly get *my* attention. I doubt very much that your average PayPal user has almost 3 quarters of a million dollars pass through their accounts in a matter of weeks.
Paypal, of course, is an American company and thus subject to American laws and regulations, even if its customers wouldn’t be. (While non-bank financial institutions aren’t necessarily subject to banking regs, there are other regulations that govern them to a point.) And yes, this includes the USA PATRIOT act, though I’m not sure that anything in that act applies here. But if you’ve ever had to pass ‘identity verification’ to get any kind of bank or similar account with a U.S. institution, you have the Patriot Act to thank for that. So I doubt very much that anyone thinks he’s a terrorist. (If he were being blocked because his name appears on a Bad Person List, it probably would have happened long before now, and it wouldn’t be because of the Patriot Act anyway.)
Now, I don’t know what kind of investigation they’re actually doing. Or if indeed they’re doing one. Now, at a guess, I don’t think Paypal will actually mass-refund all the money (and I’m quite sure they can’t just keep it and go HA HA HA) just because that would be one hell of a lot of work.
If I were him, with that much money on the line, I’d hire a lawyer yesterday.
10/09/2010 at 21:26 bwion says:
Just to add, the fact that they are allowing money to still go *into* the account while it’s frozen strikes me as very very skeevy. (“Skeevy” is, of course, a technical legal term that means “hinky”.)
10/09/2010 at 21:41 dudekiller says:
Oh, c’mon, why did you have to go and bring reason and insight into this? Everyone’s havin’ a good ol’ Internet Angry-Party over here!
10/09/2010 at 22:00 caesarbear says:
“Now, I don’t know what kind of investigation they’re actually doing.”
It’s been THREE WEEKS. They aren’t doing any investigation. You’re not bringing any reason or insight to the discussion. Freezing an account after a sudden change in activity makes perfect sense, yes. But how long does it take to verify? Why is it taking three weeks to fix the problem? Fraud protection is being used as a smoke screen in order to hang on to the money a bit longer. I’m sure PayPal is asking Notch for his birth certificate, school diploma, notarized stationary, etc, none of which is more helpful than asking the damn bank and/or credit card that he attached to his account in the first place. We have every right to criticize PayPal.
10/09/2010 at 22:50 Calabi says:
That is bollocks you cannot construe transactions ordinary company transactions, involving hundreds of different peoples accounts willingly giving up their money as suspicious. No lawful, police or officially investigative type institutions would view or could view that aggregate flow of money as suspicious(actually they might it could be some phishing scam, but there is nothing they could do because they are all giving up their money willingly). They might view large single transactions as suspicous or single credit card. But they cannot view a large flow of blatant legitimate money as suspicous(unless they are a corrupt business). Its got to be innnocent till proven guilty.
There is no lawful reason why they have flagged the account as suspicous, not from the aggregate flow, maybe a single stolen credit, or some other thing which intimates real suspicion like a complaint from a buyer(but really not even then, they cant seize all the assets). They obviously are discriminating against legitimate businesses, they obviously do not want them to use their service.
Its funny how governments and police have to go through, all kinds of procedures and get court orders to freeze real crooks assets. But these guys can do what they like, steal it whatever.
10/09/2010 at 23:41 bwion says:
@caesarbear
Oh, I agree, Paypal deserves to be criticized quite heavily for dragging their feet (three weeks is, yes, much longer than an investigation like this should take, especially if all they’ve done is ask him for ID documents or whatever), and for a number of other things, especially letting more money be put into a flagged account. I can’t express how cross *that* part of it makes me..
I’m just saying that this isn’t *all* beyond the pale.
@Calabi
“No lawful, police or officially investigative type institutions would view or could view that aggregate flow of money as suspicious(actually they might it could be some phishing scam, but there is nothing they could do because they are all giving up their money willingly). ”
You are very very wrong about this. I’m sure there’s no way to convince you of it, but a large amount of money (especially if it’s substantially larger than the usual amount of money that goes through an account) WILL GET LOOKED AT. It may not (and probably won’t) always result in something on the scale of this, but you had better believe someone is running reports on the number and amounts of transactions going into a single account, and if they’re not, they should be. Looking at unusual patterns of deposits or withdrawals, whether by amount or location or whatever is what triggers fraud investigations within a financial institution. It’s damn near the only tool they have to figure out if something might bear closer scrutiny.
What you’re suggesting is that Paypal doesn’t actually have the right or ability to conduct fraud investigations (investigations which REQUIRE that an account be temporarily frozen, I will reiterate) at all. Which is completely ludicrous. They’re not doing their job very well, there’s no denying that. They do have some pretty horrible business practices, there’s definitely no denying that, and some of those are almost certainly at play here. But investigating an account for unusual activity, and safeguarding the money in that account while the investigation is going on, is a legitimate thing for them to do. Just, y’know, they need to do better than this.
Three weeks with no word, and any implication that they could just ‘keep the money’ (there is no way in hell they could legitimately do that, and I’m not sure they can even legitimately refund it, though doubtless they’ll say that their terms and conditions give them the right to throw it all in a swimming pool and dance naked around it if they please) is just wrong.
11/09/2010 at 01:16 Calabi says:
I guess we are in the age of big brother where everyone is watched and if you have nothing to hide nothing to worry about.
No I honestly dont believe that law enforcement agencies trawl through peoples bank accounts saying he’s got too much money all of a sudden lets investigate, they need something to investigate on first, they do not do random trawling. Whom exactly are you saying will look at it? The bank? Obviously this Paypal company will take it upon themselves to instigate a faux investigation at any opportunity.
Perhaps banks would flag it, right, but they would never, no way lock down the account like this(they would probably get into a lot of trouble for locking down the account, just for recieving money from lots of people and all those people passed the security checks(appear to have given the money willingly, thats their evidence and cause for suspicion?).
It would very quickly be unflagged(or maybe they stay flagged permanently and someone stares at it every so often and says”Yep thats really suspicious, but we cant do nothing about it!”), because it would be obvious with the type of transactions. If the banks investigated/flagged legitimate things like this all the time they’d have a hell of alot of work. If thats how these people work in catching criminals, to flag every movement of large amount of money then no wonder they dont catch them.
There is nothing for Paypal to investigate, how and what can they investigate(perhaps they’ve sent their evidence and suspicions to police?) What legitimacy, is there in requiring that person to prove their identity by sending them documents that they never sent them before. They could just send fake documents, fake ids and whatever, it is a blatant stalling tactic.
11/09/2010 at 04:00 bwion says:
@Calabi
Well, Despite this being the internet (i.e. the place where arguments go home to die), I’m not going to go around in circles with you.
One thing I will say, because it can’t be said enough, is that Paypal should not have continued to accept payments to the account after it had been frozen.
11/09/2010 at 04:19 bwion says:
Oh, and just to clarify, though, yes I’m saying that the bank (or other bank-like financial institution) would conduct an internal investigation if they noticed something odd. This is something I deal with nearly every day.
I’m not saying that the cops are looking at your bank statements every month. but you can be sure that your bank is. And they’re not doing it out of some weird Big Brother fantasy, they’re doing it (a) to cover their own backsides because they can be liable if fraud does happen and they can’t show they did everything they could to prevent it, and (b) to make sure no one’s trying to steal your money.
Bear in mind that a bank, or Paypal, or whoever, can’t throw you in jail, though they’d call the cops if they noticed something truly clear-cut. About the worst they could do is close your account, and they’d have to give you back your money if they did that. They can also return a deposit to the place it came from, though they’d be on the hook for taking money that was yours out of your account if you could show that you were, in fact, entitled to that money.
Freezing an account for weeks on end (especially if it can be demonstrated that they did earn interest on it) and continuing to accept deposits are another matter entirely, of course.
Not that even banks are blameless and holy creatures who never do anything wrong, obviously. But not everything that happens is part of an evil plot to Screw You Over For A Quick Buck, either. Just some things are.
(Okay, so maybe I am going around in circles a little longer, but I noticed you’d asked a question that I didn’t answer, and I’d like to think this is a discussion and not a fight :)
10/09/2010 at 22:06 Amun says:
Paypal is old and busted. Notch should switch to google checkout + a swiss bank.
11/09/2010 at 16:15 Mr. Brand says:
Notch can’t switch to Google Checkout, I’m sure. A merchant account is only available to people in the US or UK.
10/09/2010 at 22:15 dragon_hunter21 says:
A pat on the back, and a kick in the balls. Ain’t that just life.
10/09/2010 at 22:43 Wired says:
600,000 in a single account is reckless in itself.
10/09/2010 at 23:00 WiPa says:
It accumulated since paypal locked his account, meaning he couldn’t withdraw it even if he wanted to.
Captcha = WUBS. Lol.
10/09/2010 at 23:02 Frank says:
Yeah, PayPal can be used for money laundering, according to television show Breaking Bad! (http://www.amctv.com/originals/breakingbad/cast/sgoodman)
11/09/2010 at 00:14 gildron says:
This is something Paypal has a reputation for doing with smaller businesses that get any large quantity of money in their account. By freezing it they give themselves a few weeks to gain interest on the funds, which is quite profitable for them.
Most of the time they get away with it because, well, they are picking on small businesses, I don’t think they realized quite how popular Notch was when they decided to pull this. There are huge amounts of nerdrage on almost every forum/blog that I frequent. (And yes, I am joining in said rage.)
11/09/2010 at 01:20 FilthyPalpatine says:
Eff paypal. For realzies. I stopped using them when they froze my account with ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS in it.
Sold an old turbocharger, made 100 bucks, and the account was immediately frozen. Never saw that money, and have never used paypal since. I’ve recommended anyone who asked avoid them like the plague.
Personally, I hope they get screwed on this. Unfortunately little hope of that, but at least every bit of bad PR helps put them out of business.
I’d like for them to go out of business, also for all of their management to die in a goddamn well.
11/09/2010 at 03:25 fester says:
Wouldn’t somebody making that kind of money be able to afford a proper e-storefront that directly accepts VISA and Mastercard? Paypal needs to die in a fire 1000 times over. The sooner everyone stops using them, the better the world will be.
11/09/2010 at 03:29 Corrupt_Tiki says:
@ Shih “it’s your friend who’s always been kind of a dick and now has borrowed your car and crashed it into a tree while drinking.” classic.
11/09/2010 at 03:30 Thiefsie says:
The Basts!! *back to mining for diamonds*
11/09/2010 at 03:37 oceanclub says:
Has any indie developer come near this kind of runaway success before?? It seems astonishing… of course, considering I’m now engrossed in the game, not _that_ astonishing….
P.
11/09/2010 at 06:02 Sayyan says:
What?
11/09/2010 at 08:34 Jake says:
Canceling my paypal account.
I gave that money to support an indie developer. Not as an investment tool for paypal.
11/09/2010 at 14:28 Ted says:
Who the hell keeps €600K in a Paypal account? It would be shocking if there isn’t something illegal going on here. This must have tripped every money laundering red flag in Paypal’s system.
11/09/2010 at 14:35 Dominic White says:
So, you haven’t read this comments thread, have you? He didn’t have that money in his account until after Paypal locked it – they’re still accepting payments into it, but not letting him take the money OUT.
11/09/2010 at 15:54 Calabi says:
How do you launder money from thousands of different peoples accounts, of which have been correctly authorised(passwords match and all that)?
11/09/2010 at 18:16 Ted says:
That’s EXACTLY how you run a money laundering operation. Cash transactions over $10,000 get flagged by Treasury, so you keep it small through thousands of zombie accounts trying to stay under the radar. Knowing this, tons of small unexplained cash deposits are going to trigger any financial institutions’ money laundering warning signs and trigger a freeze and investigation like this.
12/09/2010 at 20:48 Nick says:
I thought you put it in a tumbledryer =(
11/09/2010 at 17:14 SayWot says:
Paypal losing funds, cheating people, locking accounts randomly, forcing you to use their high-price-only hotline for no reason?
Why, what a surprising and novel news item about this total premiere and ideal international payment system!
First time THAT has happened, surely.
11/09/2010 at 18:35 The Juice says:
It’s one thing to use paypal for receiving and transferring funds, but why would anyone keep that much money in their paypal account? That’s what banks are for, genius.
11/09/2010 at 18:50 Dominic White says:
=> USE EYES ON THREAD
=> COMPREHEND
11/09/2010 at 18:48 Quinn says:
Hehe…
How does lighting up the building hurt them? Then the creepers won’t spawn.
God, sorry, I had to.
12/09/2010 at 06:49 Minicow says:
How DARE a financial institution conduct a fraud investigation?!
12/09/2010 at 14:08 Dominic White says:
Conducting a fraud investigation while still taking payments into the account they’re investigating, simultaneously threatening that they reserve the rights to confiscate all that money (which they’re letting accumulate still) if they find things not entirely to their liking…
Yeah. That’s not shady at all.
12/09/2010 at 20:32 Torgen says:
Dominic’s got it.
12/09/2010 at 07:20 Anthony says:
As a new addict to Minecraft, I think the guy should get charged with distributing e-crack*.
*As long as he can work on the alpha in prison, of course.
12/09/2010 at 20:02 lordfrikk says:
You don’t just steal 600K and walk away with it. No, sir. Major shitstorm inbound if that happens.
12/09/2010 at 20:32 Torgen says:
They don’t have to steal it. They’ve made out like bandits just from the interest on it, in whichever bank they keep the funds in.
13/09/2010 at 09:54 neofit says:
Oooh, Paypal = Evil. But I have a subscription running with them, to provide RPS with a monthly donations. I suppose I should cancel said suspicious and clearly illegal bribing activity then?
14/09/2010 at 21:59 anonymous says:
But Paypal, Steam, Facebook, and such, they get all the benefits of the doubt because they’re awesome, and veryone and their brother has them.
19/09/2010 at 04:14 Crystal says:
I went and called paypal a bunch of profiteering dicks over support. They actually wrote a reply.
This was before they unlocked his account of course.
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